Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1106104

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question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:45:51

i've known a few people who ... there always depressed or in a melony mood, but let's think about this - the severe cases that are in psychiatric hospital were depression is severe they can't leave. This is jus the question, would extreme mood enhancer work....psychostimulant do think it would change - i know there's articles about it written but you can't access it, there old and put away. They do use dexedrine or dextroamphetamine. Im talking like the worst cases of depression in history, for treatment resistant, but let's say using methamphetamine with the severe cases, do you it would have benefit in anyway.....out of all the severe cases of depression over the centuries, it's like having to use extreme potent medications, like methamphetamine or ... because significant amount of dopamine and some serotonin is releaased. I do know that it's not a good long term treatment, because methamphetamine even at theraputic doses could level out. Plus when t wears off, that when severe depression would happen. That's only aspect i've thought, stimulants used i depression the downside is when they wear off you in bad mood. They used to use methadrine early on, but methamphetamine has gotten such a horrid reputation on drug lists, law enforcement, it's bad drug. But the prescribed Desoxn, they use lower doses. I don't know....but i 'm saying giving desoxyn to the most depressed person when nothing else worked....

what ideas about using extreme medications for cases that are severe hospitalized?

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:56:39

In reply to question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:45:51

ok screw what i just wrote, what other antidepressants that would used potently for a severe depression case, in a combination. Depression is linked somewhat to serotonin, because it .. serotonin make content and happy with life in a brief, dopamine is drive, Ne is alertness

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by PeterMartin on September 12, 2019, at 23:31:33

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:56:39

If you're talking way outside the box like that you might find relief if you go to Colorado and do some shrooms. I used to find "shrooming" very insightful - and it can change your perspective on anything.

Similarly MDMA. If it's been forever since you've felt "good" having aa long 8hr flood of serotonin can really remind you what life _can_ be. But of course MDMA is highly illegal.

Mushrooms are decriminalized in CO now I believe.

Prob best to washout before doing anything like that though....

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 13, 2019, at 0:56:44

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by PeterMartin on September 12, 2019, at 23:31:33

yeah, potent neurotransmitter agonists. You know everyone know about, but also there like these designer drugs that are not labeled on the market, there in club lounges and it's similar to others, but most of them were not released as a medication, but there designer drugs, those also could help with severe depression. But, this is the main thing, just blasting nuerootransmitter levels up in the most sevrer cases, I jut wonder what would happen, if there was nuerootransmitter maximum stimulation, what it would do. But you can't keep doing maximum stimulation, like MDMA and methamphetaie because they wear down neurotransmitter sites and depetion and would lead to worse. Those severe cases of depression that are in psych places, that date back to previous centuries, the most severe cases where they hardly could feel any emotion and had despair and just existing, I just wonder, what happen if they maxed out nuerotrnasmitter levels, because I've heard of people still being depressed on speed, and other drugs. I guess find a drug that puts maximum into neuron firing but would not deteriate the transmitter levels later on.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 13, 2019, at 1:05:14

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 13, 2019, at 0:56:44

i'm sorry to correct but I ment MDNA, always have typo errors, like I used to watch documentaries on mental issues, and dating back to the 1930s when they did lobotomies, you know removing part of the mind to be suppressed or not disturbed anymore. Those barbaric treatment in psychiatry in early years were scary, the treatments they did. Doctors had no compassion on the patient, they were just another patient. But i'm not a tester or suggestion but like I said the most worse cases of depression, I wonder really if maxed out there neurotransmitters but not to th point of mania, getting them high.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by Christ_empowered on September 13, 2019, at 11:51:29

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by PeterMartin on September 12, 2019, at 23:31:33


i think stimulants probably should be used in more cases of depression w/ lethargy and such. back in the day, people with severe depression were often treated with a neuroleptic, a stimulant, and a sedative. sometimes it was a near miracle, sometimes people got addicted, developed TD, etc. blah. hit or miss...the story of psychopharmacology.

 

Low-dose Desoxyn therapy

Posted by Tom2228 on September 15, 2019, at 10:31:05

In reply to question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:45:51

> i've known a few people who ... there always depressed or in a melony mood, but let's think about this - the severe cases that are in psychiatric hospital were depression is severe they can't leave. This is jus the question, would extreme mood enhancer work....psychostimulant do think it would change - i know there's articles about it written but you can't access it, there old and put away. They do use dexedrine or dextroamphetamine. Im talking like the worst cases of depression in history, for treatment resistant, but let's say using methamphetamine with the severe cases, do you it would have benefit in anyway.....out of all the severe cases of depression over the centuries, it's like having to use extreme potent medications, like methamphetamine or ... because significant amount of dopamine and some serotonin is releaased. I do know that it's not a good long term treatment, because methamphetamine even at theraputic doses could level out. Plus when t wears off, that when severe depression would happen. That's only aspect i've thought, stimulants used i depression the downside is when they wear off you in bad mood. They used to use methadrine early on, but methamphetamine has gotten such a horrid reputation on drug lists, law enforcement, it's bad drug. But the prescribed Desoxn, they use lower doses. I don't know....but i 'm saying giving desoxyn to the most depressed person when nothing else worked....
>
> what ideas about using extreme medications for cases that are severe hospitalized?

Hey RJ,

I wanted to share with you my Tx experiences with severely resistant bipolar depression. I am such a case who has greatly benefited from the therapeutic use of Desoxyn + MAOIs, for about 10yrs now. In 2010 I started the Desoxyn with Parnate, but both at probably too-low doses, though still the experience was a huge improvement over the prior years of struggles.

I switched MAOI to Marplan for many years which I loved, but arguably wasn't as globally effective as I required several AD adjuncts (+ bipolar meds), including TCAs (desipramine most effective while it lasted), DA agonists (mostly pramipexole, at times Neupro), even adjunctive sublingual ketamine. In 2015-2016 I was quite successful at work but lost control and never regained my clout. Then the Marplan shortage hit and I totally lost control on Nardil, only to start regaining stability with carbamazepine this summer -- which caused its own set of problems.

In August I switched back to Parnate, which has been worlds more efficacious. Recently, for first time in my life I am relatively stable on Parnate, Desoxyn, clonazepam, lithium, and Abilify -- and have begun to rebuild my life.

But the Desoxyn, I've been off and on it and on varying doses (been up to 80mg, now 50mg), and it is one of the very few meds that consistently keeps me afloat every time. I have to say it doesn't work as as well (except for ADHD) if depression isn't stable. It seems to greatly help the Parnate work better -- I am much more even, mood healthy, so much less anxious and socially present, as well as seem to need less with Parnate whereas on MAOIs I felt underdosed at 50mg.

I agree that the Rx methamphetamine is substantially different from other stimulants/ amphetamines, which I just don't seem to respond to. E.g., Adderall makes me sleep + agitation, dexmethylphendiate doesn't seem to clarify or help the executive function enough to help anxiety or function with ease, nor does Dexedrine, the latter I required 90-100mg while Desoxyn was on shortage and felt something was just missing, especially socially. The Desoxyn, for me, has qualitatively distinct antidepressant/ anxiolytic activity and just works seamlessly, with no side effects. It is in a class of its own.

Where I disagree, in my case at least (YMMV), is the wearing off. I take 10mg 5x/d and am covered for most of the day, with no sleep disruption. The crash with other stims was *far* worse, more abrupt, and dramatic, like moving backwards. With Desoxyn, when it wears off, the therapeutic benefits disappear, and it is only that functional decrease that makes me feel somewhat at a loss -- but it's easy to distinguish it's just the absence of the med. No "end of the world" phenomenon as with the others.

I also agree that it is a highly stigmatized Tx that many could benefit from if one can access an understanding, empathetic provider, or perhaps get over the stigma they hold themselves. I do not agree, however, that it is a bad long-term treatment, as it's consistently worked for me. There's new research that indicates lower therapeutic doses are qualitatively different in terms of brain health vs. the well-known neurotoxicity relevant to higher doses used in abuse. The data out there actually shows that therapeutic doses are profoundly neuro*trophic*/ neuro*protective* -- I see it as a matter of respecting this powerful medication and not crossing into neurodegenerative activity. Of course though, it is not a suitable treatment or one that will work for everyone, but in severe, recalcitrant cases, my personal opinion is that giving it a try is worth the possible gains vs. an ongoing loss of life due to severe illness.


Long-Term Treatment with Low Doses of Methamphetamine Promotes Neuronal Differentiation and Strengthens Long-Term Potentiation of Glutamatergic Synapses onto Dentate Granule Neurons
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4939399/


The neuroprotective potential of low-dose methamphetamine in preclinical models of stroke and traumatic brain injury
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278584615000469


Low dose methamphetamine mediates neuroprotection through a PI3K-AKT pathway
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390811001900


Treatment with low-dose methamphetamine improves behavioral and cognitive function after severe traumatic brain injury
https://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Abstract/2012/08001/Treatment_with_low_dose_methamphetamine_improves.28.aspx


Administration of low dose methamphetamine 12 h after a severe traumatic brain injury prevents neurological dysfunction and cognitive impairment in rats
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014488613003592


Acute, low-dose methamphetamine administration improves attention/information processing speed and working memory in methamphetamine-dependent individuals displaying poorer cognitive performance at baseline
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278584610004653

 

Re: Low-dose Desoxyn therapy

Posted by Ruuudy on September 15, 2019, at 13:56:22

In reply to Low-dose Desoxyn therapy, posted by Tom2228 on September 15, 2019, at 10:31:05

Great post Tom!
Thanks for the links too!

I started taking the simulant Zenzedi (dextroamphetamine) about a year & a half ago. I chose trying the dextroamphetamine after reviewing my DNA results and discussing with my doctor.

Having stopped the Zenzedi for a couple of months while I've been trying the Spravato treatments, I just started it back up a few days ago, and I can definitely feel a boost in my mood.

As far as long-term issues with simulants, haven't there been many kids AND adults taking them for ADD/ADHD for years?
Somewhere I recently read where there are doctors prescribing combinations of two different classes of simulants at the same time.

 

Re: Low-dose Desoxyn therapy

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 23, 2019, at 21:49:24

In reply to Low-dose Desoxyn therapy, posted by Tom2228 on September 15, 2019, at 10:31:05

yeah, please don't think that i'm reminishing about this, but i had low processing speed on a psychiatric evaulation though an older program that was known as DARS. I know very well i couldnt be prescribed desoxyn, but i've been on dexedrine high dose about 10 years ago, but like you sasid when dexedrine wears off, it is like a end of thee world feeling, the stimulation and the dopamine and all the drive seem to fade, it made me depressed when dexedrine wore off. I hated that period, i would have to prep myself 2 hours beforoe it would wear off, so i wouldnt be bad mood, irrtible.

But like you said low-dose methamphetamine trails or articles that you posted, it does look like at theraputic doses of methampehtamine that it does have a benefical effect for mood, and processing speed and cognitive function. On a throw off topic, i was ... thinking about the most severe cases of depression that were in psyhcaitric wards, even decades ago....where they were so depressed just stared out a window in a lifeless state, serious cases. I was just....if they gave them MDNA or methamphetamine, which definetly would never happen at a psychiatric ward, but it increases dopamine levels and methamphtamine increases serotonin levels moroe than regular ampehtamine, that is why you felt something was missing like you said. It stimulates serotonin receptors more than amphetamine, which is why it has an anti-depressant effect. I researched that years ago. And if a severe case of depression and they gave them moderate to high doses of desoxyn what would happen. The menetal hospitals that held people who could not function because of their depression. It just makes me wonder what would happen if they inciated a dose moderate to high and what it would do in a severe-serious case through out all the state hospital cases and reports.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on September 23, 2019, at 22:19:19

In reply to question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:45:51

i'm not a board certificated or know any thing advanced on treating, whatever the doctors that have extensive research on treating it. Using Parnate, but you know the cases where absolutely no anti-depressants reaell worked, and there are tons of them, the old generation, it just pop up if they were given direct stimulant to release neurotransmitter levels to make depression go away.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant rjlockhart37

Posted by Tom2228 on September 24, 2019, at 7:58:19

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 23, 2019, at 22:19:19

I agree, many suffering people on inpatient units would benefit from psychostimulant therapy added an older generation AD, especially if there was a partial response to the latter, but sadly you don't see them used on units these days unless for the severely ADHD. Back in March I came into Columbia Presbyterian (NYC)'a CPEP severely depressed on Nardil + Desoxyn (among others) seeking ECT. I have that degree of ADHD and was begged to take Adderall -- I resisted as not my med but submitted and merely fell asleep + agitation upon waking. Was then told I could take the Desoxyn "upstairs" on unit but was transferred to another division upstate where medical director was phobic of MAOI + stim., so gave up on the ECT, put in my 3day notice and put up with the withdrawal until I was out. Unfortunate.

It's a sad state of affairs today. Agreed that Desoxyn substantially different from amphetamine and is an underutilized therapy even outpatient.

Thankfully, Parnate 50mg + Desoxyn 50mg has been lifesaving since August. Last time in 2010 when took the combo was on 20-30 Parnate + just 12.5mg Desoxyn. Big difference with Desoxyn at 50mg; I believe the med is often underdoses. Some pharmacists shriek at dose saying it's too high and incorrectly believe for some reason that it's more potent that its cousins. There is actually no FDA max in the PDR, just a suggested pediatric dose of 20-25mg divided. I did need 80mg at some point on Marplan and Nardil, but see no need for >50mg with Parnate.

The combination has truly been life-saving. I do take with lithium, aripiprazole and clonazepam (latter have been able to halve since Parnate), and I have felt worlds more stable in past 2mos than in my life. I do have an amazing psychopharm whom I see weekly, daily emails; I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 12, 2019, at 0:38:13

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant rjlockhart37, posted by Tom2228 on September 24, 2019, at 7:58:19

Yeah, that's good your on this meedications that are helping, alot of people view desoxyn as street methamphetmaine but if it's ... given in these certain doses like i don't doenst come in like 5mg or somehting.... street stuff is extreme, ice, meth, whatever it is those must be massive doses compaired to theraputic and medical given doses. The reason i think it works better or even diffrent class, is that m-amphetamine releasese serotonin also, and a few others that regular amphetamine does not. The methy group attached to it, added those effects.

But i was just, people who are so depressed that it's not considered depression its where lifeless and cant leave the hospital, just really wonder what would happen if there nuero levels were flooded with neurotransmitters, i don't maybe they would have psychotic states, i don't know.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by bleauberry on October 18, 2019, at 16:12:17

In reply to question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on September 12, 2019, at 21:45:51

I'm a huge fan of Ritalin for treatment resistant depression and all cases of depression. I think it should be utilized 10X more frequently than SSRIs, and should be a first line choice.

Clinical studies show that it gets majorly depressed senior citizens up out of bed playing checkers within just a few days. It helped me more than any other med in the entire arsenal of psychiatric meds. It isn't really a perfect antidepressant, but it is better than what they call antidepressants. I say that because it works fast - within hours to days, a couple weeks at the most, and instead of numbing your emotions like most antidepressants and antipsychotics do, it gets you interested in your hobbies and activities again, and gives you the energy to carry through with your newfound motivations. That leads to your becoming undepressed.

Ritalin does serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine. But it is specific to the mood center of the brain. It also increases the firing rate of the brain, which in my case was the total reason for the depression in the first place, it had nothing to do with mood chemicals. SSRIs made me worse for a reason - they caused firing to slow down! My firing was already too slow. So I got worse. Ritalin increased firing and I felt better almost immediately. Adderall is just norepinephrine and dopamine without an increased firing, and in fact, blunted firing.

Some people will do better with Adderall or Modafinil. Adderall is just like "uppers" on the street. It is amphetamine. It leads to longterm troubles like you see with people strung out on drugs on the street. Ritalin is sort of in the cocaine family, distant, and doesn't seem to have such longterm risks. I was on it for over a year with no problems. I did build up tolerance to it but reached a plateau where it worked good between 40mg to 60mg per day in 10mg divided doses. I do not like the extended release versions. The short term action is part of the therapy. The extended action sort of cuts into that.

They are talking about using magic mushrooms, LSD and such for psychiatry. I think those could work very well, though at minuscule doses, not recreational doses.

In terms of stigma, what other people think, how law feels, how family feels, who cares? You shouldn't care. All you should care about is restoring some quality of life. Whatever it takes to do that. I think the best outcomes I've seen are from people who experimented, people who got outside the box, and people who did unconventional things such as stimulants for depression instead of antidepressants for depression.

Anyone in a legal state should try to use either marijuana smoke, marijuana edibles, CBD oil, or full spectrum oil, for their mood disorders. There are many reports of amazing success. I know 2 people who were basically institutional cases of depression, lost causes, no hope, who now operate fairly normal engaged lives with just marijuana. One guy does amazingly well, completely normal, on very high doses of edibles in combination with smoking multiple times throughout the day. No red eyes. No glassy eyes. No high. Just tolerance and the therapy that comes from that.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by rjlockhart37 on October 19, 2019, at 15:13:22

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by bleauberry on October 18, 2019, at 16:12:17

i've been on both adderall and dexedrine, adderall is more physically stimulating, it increseas more norepinephrine due to levoamphetamine.

Right now the only i can take is armodafninil, it is a mild dopamine reptake inhibitor, but it's mianly for wakefulness, and not concentration or a psychostimulant like methyphendiate, or amphetamine. I was never a methyphendiate persopn, i was prescribed dexedrine very young, and it seems the best for me.

 

Re: question about treatment resistant

Posted by Ruuudy on October 28, 2019, at 14:29:30

In reply to Re: question about treatment resistant, posted by rjlockhart37 on October 19, 2019, at 15:13:22

How would you describe the difference between methylphenidate & Dexadrine?

I've been taking a Dexadrine equivalent, Zenzedi, for a year.
It helps. Just curious.

Rudy


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