Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1100230

Shown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Fell off the wagon

Posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

Last sunday I fell off the wagon again, after full abstinence since april. For a week, I didn't go to work, and all I did is knock myself out with booze and put myself to sleep. Yesterday I gathered my will and stopped, and now have been fully alcohol free for 24 hours.

I'm so tired of this. I'm not an alcoholic, it's just the only thing that gives me relief from whatever this is that I have. None of the serotonin drugs have worked. Currently on the highest available dose of Trintellix, and it's done about as much as a vitamin pill I can get at a health food store.

My ex-wife thinks I should have myself admitted to a mood clinic. But I don't even know how to explain my condition to them. Depression? Anxiety? none of it fully fits. My diaphragm pushes up into my chest the moment I open my eyes, my head tremors all day, my eyes don't properly focus, I'm agitated and can't concentrate. I have this constant urge to roll my left eye to the middle to stop sensory overload when I'm driving. How do you explain all this to a pdoc? They don;t know what to do with me. All they give me are damn SSRIs.

I'm so tired.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by KathrynLex on August 11, 2018, at 13:06:42

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

I used to self medicate too, but lucky(?) for me, I have debilitating panic disorder, and the drinking ultimately made it MUCH worse. A night of heavy drinking led to a full day of panic, anxiety, and all the fun filled side effects that come with those issues. Derealization in particular, and that scares me the most. Needless to say, I don't drink anymore. Is it possible the drinking could be giving you temporary relief (which is sooooo nice) but maybe causing problems with your condition?

The idea of going to a mood clinic is an interesting one. I've thought about doing that myself. (Like you, my condition is resistant o SSRIs and SNRIs. In about a week and a half, I'm going to try an MAOI, which are supposed to be a lot more potent, but they come with a very long list of dietary restrictions. If you can find the right mood clinic, you'll be surrounded by understanding professionals who can actually help. Maybe try calling a few and ask how they would plan to treat you if you decide to stay with them.

> Last sunday I fell off the wagon again, after full abstinence since april. For a week, I didn't go to work, and all I did is knock myself out with booze and put myself to sleep. Yesterday I gathered my will and stopped, and now have been fully alcohol free for 24 hours.
>
> I'm so tired of this. I'm not an alcoholic, it's just the only thing that gives me relief from whatever this is that I have. None of the serotonin drugs have worked. Currently on the highest available dose of Trintellix, and it's done about as much as a vitamin pill I can get at a health food store.
>
> My ex-wife thinks I should have myself admitted to a mood clinic. But I don't even know how to explain my condition to them. Depression? Anxiety? none of it fully fits. My diaphragm pushes up into my chest the moment I open my eyes, my head tremors all day, my eyes don't properly focus, I'm agitated and can't concentrate. I have this constant urge to roll my left eye to the middle to stop sensory overload when I'm driving. How do you explain all this to a pdoc? They don;t know what to do with me. All they give me are damn SSRIs.
>
> I'm so tired.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » KathrynLex

Posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 13:22:32

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect, posted by KathrynLex on August 11, 2018, at 13:06:42

I suffered from this condition for 1.5 yrs before I had a few drinks and accidentally realized it really helps on all fronts, so Alcohol isn't causing it; it's my go to last resort when I've had enough of this and it's either alcohol or doing something more extreme (thoughts of my boy keeps me from doing "that"). But you're right, I do get worse after heavy consumption. I don't know what to do.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon

Posted by linkadge on August 11, 2018, at 18:06:23

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

I know the feeling of wanting to just shut the brain down. SSRIs don't really do that. They are kindof half sedative, half stimulant. They can keep your brain half awake, depriving you of deep restorative sleep.

Sorry, my memory is not great. What have you tried in the way of mood stabilizers or anticonvulsants? Also, make sure you're getting B complex, magnesium and zinc. These will help your brain's natural inhibitory systems.

Linkadge

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge

Posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 23:18:09

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon, posted by linkadge on August 11, 2018, at 18:06:23

I've tired everything when it comes healthfood drugs linkadge. I need to go the pharma option. haven't tried a thing on that front. Diazepams don't do a thing, even klonopin, though I've only taken smaller dosages. I think alcohol's desensitized my response to GABA drugs. I'm desperate.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by beckett2 on August 12, 2018, at 0:06:07

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 23:18:09

Have you tried Lyrica? I was given that after years taking Xanax. It's problematic, but it's helped me. I have severe anxiety which, I think, drives my depression.

Mood stabilizers can help.

The idea of speaking with one or more mood clinics sounds like a good tack.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 7:57:00

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 23:18:09

Hey,

I wasn't suggesting the alternatives as a primary treatment, only to recommend getting sufficient nutrients to help ensure the meds work property.
Just take a quality multivitamin if you're not sure.

As for meds, Topamax, Depakote, gabapentin / lyrica may help. Baclofen may help. Hve you tried mirtazapine?

Be completely honest with your doctor.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by KathrynLex on August 12, 2018, at 11:52:02

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

Medications can be a lifesaver. The trick seems to be finding the right one, and sometimes augmenting that with supplements that work well for you. There are a lot of medications out there that have the potential to help. Just be sure to find a good psychiatrist who isn't afraid to work with some of the lesser-known medications, and listens to you when you say the SSRIs don't work for you.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge

Posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 13:12:27

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect, posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 7:57:00

Yeah, SSRIs alone done help me much. My brain seems to need a much more significant 'freeze' effect.

I feel better when the medication seems to hit me like a baseball bat and leave me semiconscious for a few hours.

My thoughts get so fast / painful that I need a break from my own thoughts. SSRIs don't do that for me (or at least no enough).

Lithium helps some, as dose mirtazapine, medical marijuanna, magnesium and other supplements. Low doses of venlafaxine also help. I think my problem is more related to gaba / dopamine (and perhaps, to some extent, serotonin).


Linkadge


 

Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge

Posted by KathrynLex on August 12, 2018, at 17:51:37

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge, posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 13:12:27

I seriously laughed out loud at your description of meds hitting you like a baseball bat. SSRIs don't work for me anymore (after 20+ years, my brain might have just developed a tolerance). I've tried Lithium, and had really high hopes, but it just made me incredibly tired. I went from sleeping 9 hours a night to 14 or more. I'm glad to hear it's working out for you!

> Yeah, SSRIs alone done help me much. My brain seems to need a much more significant 'freeze' effect.
>
> I feel better when the medication seems to hit me like a baseball bat and leave me semiconscious for a few hours.
>
> My thoughts get so fast / painful that I need a break from my own thoughts. SSRIs don't do that for me (or at least no enough).

> Lithium helps some, as dose mirtazapine, medical marijuanna, magnesium and other supplements. Low doses of venlafaxine also help. I think my problem is more related to gaba / dopamine (and perhaps, to some extent, serotonin).
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » KathrynLex

Posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 18:24:04

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge, posted by KathrynLex on August 12, 2018, at 17:51:37

Well, I say that half jokingly and half true.

I actually have been hit in the head with a baseball bat (as a child, I ran infront of a batter by accident) and remember feeling totally dazed (before the pain kicked in).

The meds that work for me, often make me feel dazed and confused. It's not that they keep me that way (or that I want to live my life like that) but more that, oftentimes, my brain goes so far down the wrong direction, that the baseball bat to the head (so to speak) seems to reset things.

When I 'come to' (so to speak) my thinking patterns can straighten out.


Linkadge

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » linkadge

Posted by KathrynLex on August 12, 2018, at 22:17:41

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » KathrynLex, posted by linkadge on August 12, 2018, at 18:24:04

That actually makes perfect sense. Those side effects that make me feel dazed and loopy are some of the scariest for me, but at the same time, those have also been some of the most effective medications. There were some that made me feel too out of it, and I had to try something else, but when I could tolerate those feelings, and finally "came to," I usually felt great.

> Well, I say that half jokingly and half true.
>
> I actually have been hit in the head with a baseball bat (as a child, I ran infront of a batter by accident) and remember feeling totally dazed (before the pain kicked in).
>
> The meds that work for me, often make me feel dazed and confused. It's not that they keep me that way (or that I want to live my life like that) but more that, oftentimes, my brain goes so far down the wrong direction, that the baseball bat to the head (so to speak) seems to reset things.
>
> When I 'come to' (so to speak) my thinking patterns can straighten out.
>
>
> Linkadge
>

 

Re: Fell off the wagon

Posted by Prefect on August 13, 2018, at 12:24:16

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

But everyone, please help me understand this...What is it that alcohol does in minutes? I get relief in minutes. It can't be its impact on neurotransmitters...? It's got to be something else. Does anyone know alcohol's immediate impact on the body? After 5 minutes of consumption my breathing changes and becomes more normal.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by beckett2 on August 13, 2018, at 17:04:45

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 13, 2018, at 12:24:16

When detoxed from benzodiazepines, I was told that alcohol and benzodiazepines create cross tolerance. Oddly, Xanax would energize me (In an odd way). This is from Forbes of all places. Maybe more than you wanted to read:

______________________

"What happens once that vodka cranberry works its way through your bloodstream and hits the control center behind your eyes?

We hear many different things about how alcohol affects the brain and body, most notably that it is a depressant. That's only part of the story. Alcohol is a depressant, but it's also an indirect stimulant, and plays a few other roles that might surprise you.

Alcohol directly affects brain chemistry by altering levels of neurotransmitters -- the chemical messengers that transmit the signals throughout the body that control thought processes, behavior and emotion. Alcohol affects both "excitatory" neurotransmitters and "inhibitory" neurotransmitters.

An example of an excitatory neurotransmitter is glutamate, which would normally increase brain activity and energy levels. Alcohol suppresses the release of glutamate, resulting in a slowdown along your brain's highways.


An example of an inhibitory neurotransmitter is GABA, which reduces energy levels and calms everything down. Drugs like Xanax and Valium (and other benzodiazopenes) increase GABA production in the brain, resulting in sedation. Alcohol does the same thing by increasing the effects of GABA. This, by the way, is one reason you don't want to drink alcohol while taking benzodiazopenes; the effects will be amplified, and that can slow your heart rate and respiratory system down to dangerous levels.

So what we just discussed accounts for the depressant effects of alcohol: it suppresses the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate and increases the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA. What this means for you is that your thought, speech and movements are slowed down, and the more you drink the more of these effects you'll feel (hence the stumbling around, falling over chairs and other clumsy things drunk people do).


But here's the twist: alcohol also increases the release of dopamine in your brain's "reward center." The reward center is the same combination of brain areas (particularly the ventral striatum) that are affected by virtually all pleasurable activity, including everything from hanging out with friends, going on vacation, getting a big bonus at work, ingesting drugs (like cocaine and crystal meth), and drinking alcohol.

By jacking up dopamine levels in your brain, alcohol tricks you into thinking that it's actually making you feel great (or maybe just better, if you are drinking to get over something emotionally difficult). The effect is that you keep drinking to get more dopamine release, but at the same time you're altering other brain chemicals that are enhancing feelings of depression.

Research suggests that alcohol's affect on dopamine is more significant for men than women, which may account for men drinking more than women on average. According to results from the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC), alcoholism affects men more than women: About 10 percent of men, compared to 3 to 5 percent of women, become alcoholics over the course of their lifetime.

Over time, with more drinking, the dopamine effect diminishes until it's almost nonexistent. But at this stage, a drinker is often "hooked" on the feeling of dopamine release in the reward center, even though they're no longer getting it. Once a compulsive need to go back again and again for that release is established, addiction takes hold. The length of time it takes for this to happen is case-specific; some people have a genetic propensity for alcoholism and for them it will take very little time, while for others it may take several weeks or months.

Below is a useful summary from the website HowStuffWorks explaining how alcohol affects different parts of the brain:

Why drinking makes you less inhibited:

Cerebral cortex: In this region, where thought processing and consciousness are centered, alcohol depresses the behavioral inhibitory centers, making the person less inhibited; it slows down the processing of information from the eyes, ears, mouth and other senses; and it inhibits the thought processes, making it difficult to think clearly.
Why drinking makes you clumsy:

Cerebellum: Alcohol affects this center of movement and balance, resulting in the staggering, off-balance swagger we associate with the so-called "falling-down drunk."
Why drinking increases sexual urges but decreases sexual performance:

Hypothalamus and pituitary: The hypothalamus and pituitary coordinate automatic brain functions and hormone release. Alcohol depresses nerve centers in the hypothalamus that control sexual arousal and performance. Although sexual urge may increase, sexual performance decreases.
Why drinking makes you sleepy:
Medulla: This area of the brain handles such automatic functions as breathing, consciousness and body temperature. By acting on the medulla, alcohol induces sleepiness. It can also slow breathing and lower body temperature, which can be life threatening."

[Source: HowStuffWorks]

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » beckett2

Posted by Prefect on August 13, 2018, at 18:15:55

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect, posted by beckett2 on August 13, 2018, at 17:04:45

Okay, so dopamine may be the reason it makes me feel good. But cannabis also raises dopamine. But pot turns me into a basketcase, whereas alcohol makes me feel normal. Interesting dichotomy.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by beckett2 on August 13, 2018, at 19:42:10

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » beckett2, posted by Prefect on August 13, 2018, at 18:15:55

I thought it was gaba.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » beckett2

Posted by sigismund on August 13, 2018, at 22:20:06

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect, posted by beckett2 on August 13, 2018, at 17:04:45

That is why historical practice recommends moderation at the cocktail hour.

I'm not good at it. My hand and mouth can get a few stiff tequilas in before my brain has had a chance to comment.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Prefect

Posted by sigismund on August 13, 2018, at 22:22:43

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 13, 2018, at 12:24:16

> I get relief in minutes.

Of course. That is why I have another.

As I get older this works less well in the sleep department hours later.

Glutamate surge?

 

Re: Fell off the wagon

Posted by Hugh on August 17, 2018, at 9:39:13

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

Olivier Ameisen wrote a book about the muscle relaxant baclofen called The End of My Addiction. Ameisen had tried many antidepressants and benzos and rehab and AA. None of them helped much. Then he tried baclofen. When he got to a high enough dose, it eliminated the depression and anxiety that was driving him to drink.

I took baclofen for muscle spasms in my lower back, and it eliminated my depression and anxiety, probably because it increases striatal dopamine levels. After I'd been taking it for a week, it started to cause terrible insomnia, so I had to stop taking it. But I'm extremely sensitive to stimulants, so baclofen might not have this effect on most people.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » Hugh

Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2018, at 22:07:08

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon, posted by Hugh on August 17, 2018, at 9:39:13

>t started to cause terrible insomnia

Do you think you could have avoided that by adjusting the dose? Or by taking less to begin with?

OA used lot of Baclofen, didn't he?

 

Re: Fell off the wagon » sigismund

Posted by Hugh on August 19, 2018, at 19:29:27

In reply to Re: Fell off the wagon » Hugh, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2018, at 22:07:08

> Do you think you could have avoided that by adjusting the dose? Or by taking less to begin with?

I stopped taking baclofen (100 mg a day) and waited several days and then resumed taking it, this time at a much lower dose, which I gradually increased. It didn't cause insomnia anymore, but it didn't help my depression and anxiety at a lower dose. After a few weeks, it started to aggravate my arrhythmia.

> OA used lot of Baclofen, didn't he?

Ameisen took 120 mg a day. I think he divided this into three doses. He worked his way up to this dosage very gradually. You shouldn't stop taking baclofen suddenly, as this can cause seizures. If quitting baclofen, you should taper it.

 

Re: Fell off the wagon

Posted by Fred23 on August 25, 2018, at 13:34:15

In reply to Fell off the wagon, posted by Prefect on August 11, 2018, at 10:24:59

In the long term, alcohol is not sustainable. That is, if one weekend one drink is needed to get a relief/buzz, then next weekend, two are needed, then three, and so so on. At some point, the side effects from the alcohol consumed overtakes the relief/buzz.


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