![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mtom on May 2, 2018, at 17:15:53
I had a terrible experience with Zoloft induced Anxiety many years ago after just a couple of doses and it didn't wear off for many weeks. I had not been feeling anxious before, just depressed. It scared me off Antidepressants.
But I'm now experiencing fairly severe Depression again. My Doctor has suggested all kinds of things including SSRI's, SNRI's, even Anti-psychotics. I read they all have the possibility of causing anxiety and in some cases other awful side-effects (especially the anti-psychotics).
What is the experience out there? Someone I know tried a number of AD's, has now been on Celexa for years and says she experienced no side-effects. Thoughts? Other suggestions?
With my current depression I have also already been experiencing intensifying anxiety, taking Benzos for that. I do NOT want to get worse. But I feel the need to do something.
Thanks so much!
Posted by Christ_empowered on May 2, 2018, at 18:51:38
In reply to Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 2, 2018, at 17:15:53
a tca...surmontil...is sedating, soothing, improves sleep.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on May 2, 2018, at 23:35:56
In reply to Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 2, 2018, at 17:15:53
that would be either Luxox or trazadone, there's alot of sedating anti-depressants that have low anxiety, but all people are diffrent and a sedating AD can cause anxiety in some people, that paradox reaction thing
Posted by Mtom on May 3, 2018, at 10:04:02
In reply to Re: Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by rjlockhart37 on May 2, 2018, at 23:35:56
Had a bad experience with Trazadone, at really really low dosage prescribed to improve sleep quality. Within a few days started feeling agitated/anxious. Also Tinnitus, stomach upset, brain-fog. Kept with it for weeks hoping would improve but got worse. Tapered for several weeks, still felt the anxiety and tinnitus - latter continues to much lesser extent 8 months later. And I mean tiny dosages, my doctor promised well below the possibility of having these effects. She was surprised.
There is evidence I may be a poor metabolizer. Or am hyper-sensitive just can't tolerate increases in neurotransmitters.
But I have to find something for my depression.
> that would be either Luxox or trazadone, there's alot of sedating anti-depressants that have low anxiety, but all people are diffrent and a sedating AD can cause anxiety in some people, that paradox reaction thing
Posted by bleauberry on May 3, 2018, at 10:34:44
In reply to Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 2, 2018, at 17:15:53
This is just my opinion, but I think your experience with Zoloft screams pretty loudly that artificially raising serotonin levels is not the right approach for your chemistry. Your initial reaction tells me you probably will not do well on any antidepressants and you might be here 20 years from now still talking about your next cocktail trial.
For immediate relief I personally would turn to herbal medicines which I consider to be more effective and more wide spectrum than medications. The primary candidate is Rhodiola Rosea for both depression and anxiety, though it takes a few weeks to really kick in, and months to fully take over. Lemon balm and Skullcap and Passion flower immediately for the anxiety. Lemon balm and St Johns Wort combo is a good combo.
Whether meds or herbs you are likely to experience discomfort in the first first days or weeks. Unless the herb or med is spot on perfect for your chemistry, in which it should feel right almost immediately.
I believe the anxiety and depression most of us deal with has an identifiable and treatable cause. And that most of the causes are related to systemic inflammation and brain inflammation, and those are likely results of unsuspected stealth microbial chronic infections such as Lyme, lyme co-infections, mycoplasma, bartonells, candida, and others.
The greatest success I have seen with my own eyes in treating depression and anxiety patients is to treat the whole person, the whole body, the whole lifestyle and diet, as if you had Lyme disease, regardless of whether you actually have it or not. Many people will never actually know. But if you treat yourself as if you had Lyme, I personally belief you will experience far greater longterm success than from any psychiatric medication cocktails.
There are good books to read on that topic and plenty to read on the internet. I would suggest investing some hours to learn more about it all.
My own case was 20+ years of treatment resistant depression, sensitive to all meds like you were to Zoloft, failed ECT, failed backpacks full of meds. I got totally better 3 years after switching from psychiatrists to LLMDs (LymeLiterate M.D.s). Each state has a handful of them. Regular family doctors and specialists are totally clueless on this stuff. It requires special training.
If you were to insist on an antidepressant then I would suggest low dose prozac and low dose remeron combination.
I would also suggest low dose prozac with Ritalin. Ritalin is a stimulant for ADHD and you would think it would wildly worsen anxiety. But that doesn't happen to school kids and it didn't happen to me. What did happen was surprising - anxiety gone, sleep much better, and energized and engaged in life again.
But I truly feel your longterm results are better on a different path. My own doctors taught me that, showed me that, and demonstrated it in real time real world. According to the doctors who healed me, 9 out of 10 of us actually have lyme.
That probably sounds profound and it should. I am not going to argue about those numbers one way or the other. But I will say confidently that when we include lyme treatment as our primary vehicle to treat depression and anxiety - whether we actually have lyme or not doesn't matter - then the outcome is better. It's just that simple. Actually not simple but you get the message.
> I had a terrible experience with Zoloft induced Anxiety many years ago after just a couple of doses and it didn't wear off for many weeks. I had not been feeling anxious before, just depressed. It scared me off Antidepressants.
>
> But I'm now experiencing fairly severe Depression again. My Doctor has suggested all kinds of things including SSRI's, SNRI's, even Anti-psychotics. I read they all have the possibility of causing anxiety and in some cases other awful side-effects (especially the anti-psychotics).
>
> What is the experience out there? Someone I know tried a number of AD's, has now been on Celexa for years and says she experienced no side-effects. Thoughts? Other suggestions?
>
> With my current depression I have also already been experiencing intensifying anxiety, taking Benzos for that. I do NOT want to get worse. But I feel the need to do something.
>
> Thanks so much!
>
Posted by SLS on May 3, 2018, at 11:31:34
In reply to Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 2, 2018, at 17:15:53
There are several ways to go, as have been suggested. From a more traditional medical perspective, I don't often hear of Zoloft being effective for anxiety disorders. If your doctor opts for Prozac, beware that anxiety occurs as a side effect. It is most often temporary. Some doctors actually prescribe a drug like Ativan to make the patient more comfortable during the period of start-up anxiety. Maybe 1-2 weeks.
I've never tried Celexa, but it might be the gentlest of the SSRI drugs. Even though it isn't as popular as Lexapro, its sister drug, it is still effective and produces less anxiety as a side effect. If your doctor is adamant about usinng Lexapro, just know that anxiety as a side effect sometimes emerges during the second or third week of treatment, and then disappears.
I happen to like an older drug called nortriptyline. It is a TCA. If anything, it is somewhat sedating at first. It is more dangerous in a suicide overdose than the SSRIs, which was a great motivator for doctors to switch to SSRIs. There is a fairly new drug called Trintellix (vortioxetine) that I will be trying next. It looks similar to a SSRI, but includes other receptor effects not seen in any other antidepressant.
So, the three drugs I mentioned are:
citalopram (Celexa)
nortriptylin (Pamelor)
vortioxetine (Trintellix)* Vortioxetine still needs more time to prove its worth.
There are tons of drug and drug combinations available, but you might as well keep it simple, unless there is a history of treatment resistance.
Be aware that you can line up 10 people and get 10 different reactions to the same drug. For some people, Zoloft is their wonder drug. For me, not so much.
- Scott
Posted by Mtom on May 3, 2018, at 11:33:34
In reply to Re: Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety » Mtom, posted by bleauberry on May 3, 2018, at 10:34:44
Thank you bleauberry. I will add some more detail for you as you seem knowledgeable (are you a medical professional?).
I have Lupus. My depression first cropped up very suddenly just before I was diagnosed, that is I wasn't depressed because of the diagnosis, the depression was one of many symptoms that sent me to the Doctor to find out what was going on. It is known Lupus can cause depression and may be related to the inflammation, as you describe. However my doctors believe my Lupus is relatively mild and were never convinced it was causing depression. My most recent Lupus tests came back good, much better than years ago, however my depression has worsened.
There have been a number of intense situational stresses in recent years which may be a large contributing factor in this worsening.
I hear you about Lyme disease. I live in Canada where it is not as prominent as in the U.S. although becoming more so (more ticks surviving and reproducing, climate change believed a factor). But unfortunately, although our Medical system is really quite good up here (despite reports otherwise), because Lyme Disease is a relatively new phenomenon here, our Doctors don't have the expertise that U.S. Doctors do. I know someone who is currently travelling to the U.S. for treatment.
I've tried supplements including 5HTP (gave me the same anxiety as AD's, just took longer), I take Omega-3's, Turmeric, Vitamins. I tried high dose B-Vitamins on advice of 2 Naturopaths but they also seemed to increase my anxiety over time (I've read they are precursors to some neurotransmitters).
A note about my Zoloft reaction. I had been taking St. John's Wort for several months before trying the Zoloft. SJW was doing nothing. I told my Doctor at the time I was taking SJW, she didn't know what it was (this was a lot of years ago) and blew it off, so I took my first Zoloft the same day I had also taken SJW. May partially account for my reaction, except for the fact that Trazodone & 5HTP also caused intense anxiety/agitation.
I've even considered ECT. I haven't been able to get a good opinion on its effectiveness, and there seems to be side effect risks. It's discouraging that you say it did not help you.
I've been told by a couple of people who did not do well on Zoloft that Celexa worked well without side effects.....?
Any other thoughts you (or others) have would be welcomed.
> This is just my opinion, but I think your experience with Zoloft screams pretty loudly that artificially raising serotonin levels is not the right approach for your chemistry. Your initial reaction tells me you probably will not do well on any antidepressants and you might be here 20 years from now still talking about your next cocktail trial.
>
> For immediate relief I personally would turn to herbal medicines which I consider to be more effective and more wide spectrum than medications. The primary candidate is Rhodiola Rosea for both depression and anxiety, though it takes a few weeks to really kick in, and months to fully take over. Lemon balm and Skullcap and Passion flower immediately for the anxiety. Lemon balm and St Johns Wort combo is a good combo.
>
> Whether meds or herbs you are likely to experience discomfort in the first first days or weeks. Unless the herb or med is spot on perfect for your chemistry, in which it should feel right almost immediately.
>
> I believe the anxiety and depression most of us deal with has an identifiable and treatable cause. And that most of the causes are related to systemic inflammation and brain inflammation, and those are likely results of unsuspected stealth microbial chronic infections such as Lyme, lyme co-infections, mycoplasma, bartonells, candida, and others.
>
> The greatest success I have seen with my own eyes in treating depression and anxiety patients is to treat the whole person, the whole body, the whole lifestyle and diet, as if you had Lyme disease, regardless of whether you actually have it or not. Many people will never actually know. But if you treat yourself as if you had Lyme, I personally belief you will experience far greater longterm success than from any psychiatric medication cocktails.
>
> There are good books to read on that topic and plenty to read on the internet. I would suggest investing some hours to learn more about it all.
>
> My own case was 20+ years of treatment resistant depression, sensitive to all meds like you were to Zoloft, failed ECT, failed backpacks full of meds. I got totally better 3 years after switching from psychiatrists to LLMDs (LymeLiterate M.D.s). Each state has a handful of them. Regular family doctors and specialists are totally clueless on this stuff. It requires special training.
>
> If you were to insist on an antidepressant then I would suggest low dose prozac and low dose remeron combination.
>
> I would also suggest low dose prozac with Ritalin. Ritalin is a stimulant for ADHD and you would think it would wildly worsen anxiety. But that doesn't happen to school kids and it didn't happen to me. What did happen was surprising - anxiety gone, sleep much better, and energized and engaged in life again.
>
> But I truly feel your longterm results are better on a different path. My own doctors taught me that, showed me that, and demonstrated it in real time real world. According to the doctors who healed me, 9 out of 10 of us actually have lyme.
>
> That probably sounds profound and it should. I am not going to argue about those numbers one way or the other. But I will say confidently that when we include lyme treatment as our primary vehicle to treat depression and anxiety - whether we actually have lyme or not doesn't matter - then the outcome is better. It's just that simple. Actually not simple but you get the message.
>
> > I had a terrible experience with Zoloft induced Anxiety many years ago after just a couple of doses and it didn't wear off for many weeks. I had not been feeling anxious before, just depressed. It scared me off Antidepressants.
> >
> > But I'm now experiencing fairly severe Depression again. My Doctor has suggested all kinds of things including SSRI's, SNRI's, even Anti-psychotics. I read they all have the possibility of causing anxiety and in some cases other awful side-effects (especially the anti-psychotics).
> >
> > What is the experience out there? Someone I know tried a number of AD's, has now been on Celexa for years and says she experienced no side-effects. Thoughts? Other suggestions?
> >
> > With my current depression I have also already been experiencing intensifying anxiety, taking Benzos for that. I do NOT want to get worse. But I feel the need to do something.
> >
> > Thanks so much!
> >
Posted by bleauberry on May 4, 2018, at 8:25:17
In reply to Re: Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 3, 2018, at 11:33:34
Wow that's a great post, Mtom. If I could I would like to add some comments to what you said...
> Thank you bleauberry. I will add some more detail for you as you seem knowledgeable (are you a medical professional?).
No I am not a professional. I am a nobody. Just one of millions with the same story. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I have become an expert on some topics, more so than the folks who are supposed to be the experts. Not my choice. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. I was a straight A honor student in high school and University so I think that gave me an extra edge to be able to research and critical think through mysteries.
>
> I have Lupus.Both of my lyme doctors said that Lupus can be misdiagnosed Lyme. They did not offer any percentages or data on that. But they have seen cases of Lupus respond well to Lyme treatment. Same thing for Fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia - a lot of these diagnosis are actually lyme, according to the doctors who fixed me up.
>My depression first cropped up very suddenly just before I was diagnosed, that is I wasn't depressed because of the diagnosis, the depression was one of many symptoms that sent me to the Doctor to find out what was going on.Yeah it is that 'sudden' thing that raises a yellow flag for me. I mean, sudden as in a couple weeks after a tick bite? That's immediately where my mind goes. :-)
> It is known Lupus can cause depression and may be related to the inflammation, as you describe. However my doctors believe my Lupus is relatively mild and were never convinced it was causing depression. My most recent Lupus tests came back good, much better than years ago, however my depression has worsened.
If your doctors are not LLMDs (Lyme Literate Medical Doctors) then you may not be getting the best treatment and it might make sense to get a 2nd opinion from one of them. And yes, depression is one of the primary symptoms with patients in all of those mystery disease I listed.
>
> There have been a number of intense situational stresses in recent years which may be a large contributing factor in this worsening.Any kind of stress can throw the immune system and glandular function out of whack. When that happens, it's sort of like the pot on the stove boiling over at the same time the kitchen sink floods and the air conditioner catches fire. All at the same time.
>
> I hear you about Lyme disease. I live in Canada where it is not as prominent as in the U.S. although becoming more so (more ticks surviving and reproducing, climate change believed a factor). But unfortunately, although our Medical system is really quite good up here (despite reports otherwise), because Lyme Disease is a relatively new phenomenon here, our Doctors don't have the expertise that U.S. Doctors do. I know someone who is currently travelling to the U.S. for treatment.Doctors in USA are generally ILLITERATE when it comes to mystery diseases including Lyme. There are a handful in each state who refer to themselves as LLMDs. They are on top of it. They are way too few. Unless a case of lyme is straight forward textbook, it isn't going to end well. Most of them are not straight forward textbook. We don't often get the rash, or the positive i.d. on a lab test, and often never even aware of the tick bite. It's a clinical diagnosis based on expertise and experience. There are seminars that teach doctors how to be experts. Most doctors do not do those seminars. I don't know why. Makes no sense. I think they get comfy and cushy in their jobs and just don't want to raise the bar any more. Dunno.
>
> I've tried supplements including 5HTP (gave me the same anxiety as AD's, just took longer), I take Omega-3's, Turmeric, Vitamins. I tried high dose B-Vitamins on advice of 2 Naturopaths but they also seemed to increase my anxiety over time (I've read they are precursors to some neurotransmitters).Your sensitivities to serotonin and B vitamins is a dead giveaway for Lyme, if you ask me. I mean, I look at that and it is clear as day. Sensitivities like that are HALLMARK in Lyme disease. I was so sensitive when I first started treatment that I could barely handle Vitamin C! The B vitamins gave me massive anxiety. Anything that calmed anxiety gave me deep depression. Everything made me worse! It took months of titrating slowly in tiny steps to be able to take substances. The only thing that really made a big diff were the anti-inflammatory herbs used in Lyme disease, and the antibiotics. My sensitivities today are mostly gone. I am allergic to eggs and gluten, which are also common offenders in lyme.
>
> A note about my Zoloft reaction. I had been taking St. John's Wort for several months before trying the Zoloft. SJW was doing nothing. I told my Doctor at the time I was taking SJW, she didn't know what it was (this was a lot of years ago) and blew it off, so I took my first Zoloft the same day I had also taken SJW. May partially account for my reaction, except for the fact that Trazodone & 5HTP also caused intense anxiety/agitation.Traz and 5HTP causing anxiety/agitation is certainly a yellow flag to me. I do not see that as just some paradoxical reaction where you just shrug your shoulders and say 'oh well'. No it's more than that. It means something. You know what I think it means.
>
> I've even considered ECT. I haven't been able to get a good opinion on its effectiveness, and there seems to be side effect risks. It's discouraging that you say it did not help you.I did ECT. I had 12 bilateral sessions over one month. I FAILED! Actually, toward the end, after the final treatment, I did experience a very short window of relief. Psychobabble noticed it. There were officials here asking me for my story. They thought it was amazing that ECT had helped me. But it was just days later after that, I was back into deep depression again. It was very short lived. If you study ECT, you will find that when good results do happen, which isn't that often, they are usually short lived. ECT is best for folks who are seriously handicapped or crippled. It can mean the difference between living in an institution or living in a halfway house. But for you or me, there's not much there.
The total cost was $28,000. Insurance covered only a part of that. That was back before Obamacare when we had great insurance policies that cost little and offered a lot. Today's insurance would probably cover less. A lot has changed in that regard.
My theory is that the only reason ECT helped for a short time was that it was literally frying the lyme bacteria in my brain. After each session I got super deep depression. With the benefit of hindsight, I can now see that those were actually Herxheimer reactions. ECT was killing bugs. But of course, as soon as the shocks stopped, the bugs came roaring back. That is my hypothesis of what happened.
>
> I've been told by a couple of people who did not do well on Zoloft that Celexa worked well without side effects.....?You might do better with low dose prozac (5mg-20mg) with low dose Zyprexa (2.5mg-5mg). That particular combination kept my head above water for several years before it pooped out. Even with my sensitivities I could handle those. I like prozac because you can dissolve it in juice or water and drink custom doses - for example I put 10mg in a glass and I would drink 1/10th of the glass to get a 1mg dose. Over several weeks I went from 1mg to 10mg gradually. The combo is really good and I have no idea why doctors don't employ it more often.
Because of its long halfway, which is about a week, titrating is easier than other meds because you can skip days and not suffer from it. For example I did 1mg one day, skipped a day, then maybe 2mg, skip a day or skip 2 days, and so on...
Zyprexa and Prozac have a special synergy that other sari/antipsychotic combos don't share. I think this is a wildly under-utilized tool.
I think where a lot of us go wrong, including myself, is that we get all hung up on the theory that psychiatric medications alone are the only way out of our dungeon. That is a myth. With my experience, I would say that psychiatric medications alone is what keeps us in the dungeon. We need more than that. Meds are good tools for short term management of symptoms and acute management. But for longterm chronic mystery situations, they are often unsatisfactory and problematic in gaining respectable results.
>
> Any other thoughts you (or others) have would be welcomed.I would suggest getting online and trying to search around for an L.L.M.D. in you area. See one of them for a 2nd opinion. Many of them have long waiting lists for new patients - 3 to 9 month waits are not uncommon. So find one and schedule one ASAP so you can begin the wait. I honestly believe that for most of us psychiatric patients, our outcomes are better with an LLMD than with any other category of medical doctors.
If you have any difficulty locating an LLMD let me know and let me know what city/state you live in. I can probably help you find one if you run into troubles.
If you wanted to experiment with some herbal things that I have a lot of confidence in, then I would suggest these for starters:
1. Rhodiola rosea. It is a root with a lot of scientific study. It is used for endurance, energy, anxiety and depression. It is also one of several 'adaptogens', which helps the body to respond to stresses of all kinds. Rhodiola is maybe one of the best antidepressants I've ever experienced. It's not magic but it's really good and better than most psych meds in my opinion.
Rhodiola is talked about in most of the lyme books. It has a definite role in the mystery disease treatments.
It's only drawback is getting started on it. Many people experience over-stimulation. I did too. It can worsen anxiety, agitation, and insomnia in the first days or couple weeks. As the body adjusts to it, it morphs into amazing peace and contentment, with renewed engagement in life.
I still take it. My dose is 100mg. Most people take more than that. Lower doses are more stimulating. Higher doses are more calming. And there is a lot of adjustment potential in-between to get a custom effect. A family member takes 100mg 3 times a day. Common doses are in the 400mg range. Too much for me. It is a great herb for mystery diseases but it takes a little bit of management to get started on it. My first dose was just 1/4 of a capsule (25mg). And I slowly titrated up from there.
2. Berberine is an amazing substance that helps in so many ways. Somehow, someway, all of the things it does, it ends up helping mood, in terms of anxiety and depression. Many mechanisms. It's very wide spectrum - pro-immune system, anti-microbial pathogens, anti-inflammation, anti-diabetes, agonist and antagonist at many receptors throughout the body, and more. Berberine is found in several plants. My favorite product, and I take 2 caps 3 times a day, is called Phyto-Biotic made by Enzymatic Therapy. I order it online to my mailbox from iHerb but other places have it too. It has berberine from 3 different plant sources. This is the kind of supplement you can definitely tell when the bottle runs out! You feel it.
Posted by Mtom on May 4, 2018, at 9:58:34
In reply to Re: Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety » Mtom, posted by bleauberry on May 4, 2018, at 8:25:17
Thank you again bleauberry for your time and thoughtful suggestions. As mentioned, I live in Canada, where I've been told expertise in Lyme Disease is lacking (because it's only very recently grown in prominence up here). An acquaintance is travelling to the U.S. to pursue this, but that is cost-prohibitive as our Insurance will not cover that.
Additionally, the Lupus diagnosis seemed pretty certain. In addition to well-known Lupus symptoms, I tested positive including anti-dsDNA antibodies which is considered absolutely diagnostic of Lupus. With this diagnosis, suggesting to any Doctor that I should also be tested for Lyme Disease is going to appear to be grasping at straws.
I have researched all known antidepressants and there is not 1 that does not list the side-effects I fear as possibilities. You mentioned Prozac, yet a paper I read yesterday published in the British Journal of Medicine reviewing hundreds of studies implicated Prozac as being a drug more frequently associated with Anxiety/Agitation syndrome than many others (they also implicated Imipramine (a TCA) as being another.
We are going to cautiously try Celexa starting with tiny dosages. There is some very limited research, and a number of anecdotal reports, that Celexa is less likely to cause anxiety/agitation syndromes than other SSRI's, including its "upgraded" sister-drug Lexapro (which is chemically similar, created by the same Pharma company that previously created Celexa, and there is some "feeling" out there that this may have been more because the patent on Celexa had run out, rather than any additional benefit from Lexapro). My Doctor did not feel there was much difference between the 2, but has prescribed Celexa based on my limited data that this may be more "gentle".
We had an interesting discussion on the DNA testing that is now available to analyze how an individual's enzyme systems interact with medications including AD's and make recommendations based on that. Based on my "sensitivities" we are considering this.
> Wow that's a great post, Mtom. If I could I would like to add some comments to what you said...
>
> > Thank you bleauberry. I will add some more detail for you as you seem knowledgeable (are you a medical professional?).
>
> No I am not a professional. I am a nobody. Just one of millions with the same story. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I have become an expert on some topics, more so than the folks who are supposed to be the experts. Not my choice. Do or die. Survival of the fittest. I was a straight A honor student in high school and University so I think that gave me an extra edge to be able to research and critical think through mysteries.
>
> >
> > I have Lupus.
>
> Both of my lyme doctors said that Lupus can be misdiagnosed Lyme. They did not offer any percentages or data on that. But they have seen cases of Lupus respond well to Lyme treatment. Same thing for Fibromyalgia, depression, anxiety, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia - a lot of these diagnosis are actually lyme, according to the doctors who fixed me up.
>
>
> >My depression first cropped up very suddenly just before I was diagnosed, that is I wasn't depressed because of the diagnosis, the depression was one of many symptoms that sent me to the Doctor to find out what was going on.
>
> Yeah it is that 'sudden' thing that raises a yellow flag for me. I mean, sudden as in a couple weeks after a tick bite? That's immediately where my mind goes. :-)
>
> > It is known Lupus can cause depression and may be related to the inflammation, as you describe. However my doctors believe my Lupus is relatively mild and were never convinced it was causing depression. My most recent Lupus tests came back good, much better than years ago, however my depression has worsened.
>
> If your doctors are not LLMDs (Lyme Literate Medical Doctors) then you may not be getting the best treatment and it might make sense to get a 2nd opinion from one of them. And yes, depression is one of the primary symptoms with patients in all of those mystery disease I listed.
>
> >
> > There have been a number of intense situational stresses in recent years which may be a large contributing factor in this worsening.
>
> Any kind of stress can throw the immune system and glandular function out of whack. When that happens, it's sort of like the pot on the stove boiling over at the same time the kitchen sink floods and the air conditioner catches fire. All at the same time.
>
> >
> > I hear you about Lyme disease. I live in Canada where it is not as prominent as in the U.S. although becoming more so (more ticks surviving and reproducing, climate change believed a factor). But unfortunately, although our Medical system is really quite good up here (despite reports otherwise), because Lyme Disease is a relatively new phenomenon here, our Doctors don't have the expertise that U.S. Doctors do. I know someone who is currently travelling to the U.S. for treatment.
>
> Doctors in USA are generally ILLITERATE when it comes to mystery diseases including Lyme. There are a handful in each state who refer to themselves as LLMDs. They are on top of it. They are way too few. Unless a case of lyme is straight forward textbook, it isn't going to end well. Most of them are not straight forward textbook. We don't often get the rash, or the positive i.d. on a lab test, and often never even aware of the tick bite. It's a clinical diagnosis based on expertise and experience. There are seminars that teach doctors how to be experts. Most doctors do not do those seminars. I don't know why. Makes no sense. I think they get comfy and cushy in their jobs and just don't want to raise the bar any more. Dunno.
>
> >
> > I've tried supplements including 5HTP (gave me the same anxiety as AD's, just took longer), I take Omega-3's, Turmeric, Vitamins. I tried high dose B-Vitamins on advice of 2 Naturopaths but they also seemed to increase my anxiety over time (I've read they are precursors to some neurotransmitters).
>
> Your sensitivities to serotonin and B vitamins is a dead giveaway for Lyme, if you ask me. I mean, I look at that and it is clear as day. Sensitivities like that are HALLMARK in Lyme disease. I was so sensitive when I first started treatment that I could barely handle Vitamin C! The B vitamins gave me massive anxiety. Anything that calmed anxiety gave me deep depression. Everything made me worse! It took months of titrating slowly in tiny steps to be able to take substances. The only thing that really made a big diff were the anti-inflammatory herbs used in Lyme disease, and the antibiotics. My sensitivities today are mostly gone. I am allergic to eggs and gluten, which are also common offenders in lyme.
>
> >
> > A note about my Zoloft reaction. I had been taking St. John's Wort for several months before trying the Zoloft. SJW was doing nothing. I told my Doctor at the time I was taking SJW, she didn't know what it was (this was a lot of years ago) and blew it off, so I took my first Zoloft the same day I had also taken SJW. May partially account for my reaction, except for the fact that Trazodone & 5HTP also caused intense anxiety/agitation.
>
> Traz and 5HTP causing anxiety/agitation is certainly a yellow flag to me. I do not see that as just some paradoxical reaction where you just shrug your shoulders and say 'oh well'. No it's more than that. It means something. You know what I think it means.
>
> >
> > I've even considered ECT. I haven't been able to get a good opinion on its effectiveness, and there seems to be side effect risks. It's discouraging that you say it did not help you.
>
> I did ECT. I had 12 bilateral sessions over one month. I FAILED! Actually, toward the end, after the final treatment, I did experience a very short window of relief. Psychobabble noticed it. There were officials here asking me for my story. They thought it was amazing that ECT had helped me. But it was just days later after that, I was back into deep depression again. It was very short lived. If you study ECT, you will find that when good results do happen, which isn't that often, they are usually short lived. ECT is best for folks who are seriously handicapped or crippled. It can mean the difference between living in an institution or living in a halfway house. But for you or me, there's not much there.
>
> The total cost was $28,000. Insurance covered only a part of that. That was back before Obamacare when we had great insurance policies that cost little and offered a lot. Today's insurance would probably cover less. A lot has changed in that regard.
>
> My theory is that the only reason ECT helped for a short time was that it was literally frying the lyme bacteria in my brain. After each session I got super deep depression. With the benefit of hindsight, I can now see that those were actually Herxheimer reactions. ECT was killing bugs. But of course, as soon as the shocks stopped, the bugs came roaring back. That is my hypothesis of what happened.
>
> >
> > I've been told by a couple of people who did not do well on Zoloft that Celexa worked well without side effects.....?
>
> You might do better with low dose prozac (5mg-20mg) with low dose Zyprexa (2.5mg-5mg). That particular combination kept my head above water for several years before it pooped out. Even with my sensitivities I could handle those. I like prozac because you can dissolve it in juice or water and drink custom doses - for example I put 10mg in a glass and I would drink 1/10th of the glass to get a 1mg dose. Over several weeks I went from 1mg to 10mg gradually. The combo is really good and I have no idea why doctors don't employ it more often.
>
> Because of its long halfway, which is about a week, titrating is easier than other meds because you can skip days and not suffer from it. For example I did 1mg one day, skipped a day, then maybe 2mg, skip a day or skip 2 days, and so on...
>
> Zyprexa and Prozac have a special synergy that other sari/antipsychotic combos don't share. I think this is a wildly under-utilized tool.
>
> I think where a lot of us go wrong, including myself, is that we get all hung up on the theory that psychiatric medications alone are the only way out of our dungeon. That is a myth. With my experience, I would say that psychiatric medications alone is what keeps us in the dungeon. We need more than that. Meds are good tools for short term management of symptoms and acute management. But for longterm chronic mystery situations, they are often unsatisfactory and problematic in gaining respectable results.
>
> >
> > Any other thoughts you (or others) have would be welcomed.
>
> I would suggest getting online and trying to search around for an L.L.M.D. in you area. See one of them for a 2nd opinion. Many of them have long waiting lists for new patients - 3 to 9 month waits are not uncommon. So find one and schedule one ASAP so you can begin the wait. I honestly believe that for most of us psychiatric patients, our outcomes are better with an LLMD than with any other category of medical doctors.
>
> If you have any difficulty locating an LLMD let me know and let me know what city/state you live in. I can probably help you find one if you run into troubles.
>
> If you wanted to experiment with some herbal things that I have a lot of confidence in, then I would suggest these for starters:
>
> 1. Rhodiola rosea. It is a root with a lot of scientific study. It is used for endurance, energy, anxiety and depression. It is also one of several 'adaptogens', which helps the body to respond to stresses of all kinds. Rhodiola is maybe one of the best antidepressants I've ever experienced. It's not magic but it's really good and better than most psych meds in my opinion.
>
> Rhodiola is talked about in most of the lyme books. It has a definite role in the mystery disease treatments.
>
> It's only drawback is getting started on it. Many people experience over-stimulation. I did too. It can worsen anxiety, agitation, and insomnia in the first days or couple weeks. As the body adjusts to it, it morphs into amazing peace and contentment, with renewed engagement in life.
>
> I still take it. My dose is 100mg. Most people take more than that. Lower doses are more stimulating. Higher doses are more calming. And there is a lot of adjustment potential in-between to get a custom effect. A family member takes 100mg 3 times a day. Common doses are in the 400mg range. Too much for me. It is a great herb for mystery diseases but it takes a little bit of management to get started on it. My first dose was just 1/4 of a capsule (25mg). And I slowly titrated up from there.
>
> 2. Berberine is an amazing substance that helps in so many ways. Somehow, someway, all of the things it does, it ends up helping mood, in terms of anxiety and depression. Many mechanisms. It's very wide spectrum - pro-immune system, anti-microbial pathogens, anti-inflammation, anti-diabetes, agonist and antagonist at many receptors throughout the body, and more. Berberine is found in several plants. My favorite product, and I take 2 caps 3 times a day, is called Phyto-Biotic made by Enzymatic Therapy. I order it online to my mailbox from iHerb but other places have it too. It has berberine from 3 different plant sources. This is the kind of supplement you can definitely tell when the bottle runs out! You feel it.
Posted by Mtom on May 5, 2018, at 11:29:06
In reply to Re: Which Antidepressant LEAST likely to cause anxiety, posted by Mtom on May 4, 2018, at 9:58:34
I posted further discussion about this topic under the thread "Celexa anxiety side effect: less than most AD's?"
This is the end of the thread.
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