Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1095680

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Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou SLS

Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 18:21:22

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22, posted by SLS on November 2, 2017, at 17:37:28

Hi SLS,

To me (and I'm no doctor as well) schizoaffective would need the symptoms to predate treatment with a particular drug.

So for example, if the individual has no history of believing things that aren't true, then I wouldn't put much credence into this symptom should it be 'treatment emergent'.

For example - healthy adults can begin to experience symptoms of psychosis after a day or two of sleep deprivation!

MAOIs can have profound effects on sleep architecture.

Linkadge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 18:36:21

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 3, 2017, at 3:39:33

>linkadge, what do you think? I will present the >info i gave you to my psychiatrist and maybe will >ask for a differential diagnosis.

Hi Lamdage. I would simply ask for a reconsideration of the diagnosis. Just ask about the possibility that the psychosis was a reaction to this particular medication.

You might discuss the timeline of what symptoms you were having before, during and after treatment with nardil.

Now, I don't have all the information myself. Also, I am not a doctor. I do know that, often doctors can diagnose you based on the symptom du jour. They are not living in your body every day. When you arm yourself with knowledge, you can get better at understanding your symptoms. For example, when you go on Wikipedia, and look up bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, OCD, GAD, schizophrenia etc. which seems to hit home the most?

This being said, you may have a *vulnerability* to this kind of reaction. That doesn't mean you (necessarily) need to be on antipsychotics long term. It may mean that you need to be careful about which drugs you take.

Whatever you do, go slowly, and listen to how you're reacting. Don't be afraid to go back a step, if it's not going how you expect.

For me, I'm not exactly sure what I have. It may be some form of bipolar, but it may also be agitated depression.

In reality thought. There are trillions of different combinations of genetic variations. We don't all have 1 of 4 or 5 diseases!!


Linakdge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 18:46:09

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 18:36:21

Just to add one thing. I know the feeling of wanting to "get off" a drug. Sometimes one starts to feel strongly against a particular drug and wants to get off it ASAP.

If you are on say 20mg of Zyprexa. I (personally) wouldn't get off this any faster than 6 months. For me, it took 2 weeks to really get off 2.5m of Zyprexa.

The slower you go, the more likely you are going to be able to sort things out.

- if I am cycling, is the desire to get off part of a particular mood in the cycle?

- if I get off too quickly the underling illness may return.

- if I get off too quickly I may be in denial about perhaps needing the drug

-if I get off too quickly, new (i.e. withdrawal) symptoms may emerge. These may look like a brand new illness and get me a new (possibly incorrect) diagnosis.

- if I get off too quickly, the adjustment may be too severe, causing me to give up and go back to full dose

The slower you go, the more likely you are to determine whether you are making the right decision or not.

Linkadge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou linkadge

Posted by SLS on November 3, 2017, at 21:27:38

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou SLS, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 17:55:17

> Hi SLS,
>
> I was referring to rebound psychosis coming off the antipsychotic, not nardil.

Yes. I fully understood your concern.

> As far as how slowly one should withdrawal from an AP, I have no idea. I suppose it depends on the dose, the potency and the duration of treatment.

What about for coming off of Seroquel 950 mg/day taken for over a year? What might that look like?

Yes, the history of drug discovery for mental illness involves a great deal of serendipity.


- Scott

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by SLS on November 3, 2017, at 22:02:17

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou SLS, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2017, at 18:21:22

> Hi SLS,
>
> To me (and I'm no doctor as well) schizoaffective would need the symptoms to predate treatment with a particular drug.

I guess that depends on whether or not you believe that antidepressants can uncover otherwise occult bipolar disorder. In my layman way of thinking, if antidepressants can indeed uncover bipolar disorder, then any schizoid psychosis that follows would indicate something other than uncomplicated bipolar disorder. It would be interesting to talk to a few researchers about this. I am absolutely sure that not all occurrences of mania and psychosis that appear as the result of exposure to chemical substances are evidence of mental illness. I have seen prednisone do this to an elderly woman who had no history of mental illness. She experienced visual and auditory hallucinations while the drug was being administered in the hospital. Fortunately, the psychosis resolved immediately upon the discontinuation of the drug.


- Scott

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 4, 2017, at 9:22:05

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by SLS on November 3, 2017, at 22:02:17

Hi Dr-Bob friends,

i believe i am at risk for tardive dementia. I experience memory loss and difficulty concentrating. I have this since taking more than 300mg Seroquel. I dont know if its getting worse or not but i do know that i rather have diabetes than dementia. I dont like either one but diabetes is not as disabling as dementia.

I hate to weigh one terrible thing with the next like that. Thus my repulsion of meds. I think it should be understandable even to psychiatrists or pro-psychiatry people. They really think that their meds are such a blessing. I dont understand it. I rather suffer from depression or anxiety that i naturally have than from freaky side effects and long-term consequences. I have had enough.

I have had a very difficult time yesterday. Today its much better though. I am not going higher with the Trazodone because i dont even know if it will help. I have been taking 45mg for a week, then went back to 50 and became suicidal. So i dont know if i should go to 55mg or to 45mg. I think i just have to sit this one out.

I have gotten accustomed to taking 0,25 mg Lorazepam at night which i dont like. I took Lorazepam twice last weekend against suicidal thoughts and now it seems my body demands those 0,25mg.

I am thinking about diluting the 0,25 and do my usual 10% less thing. Just not taking it does not seem to work.

Regards,
Lamdage

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou SLS

Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2017, at 10:03:41

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou linkadge, posted by SLS on November 3, 2017, at 21:27:38

Hi SLS,

Again, I have no data on how long one would need to withdraw from Seroquel.

Supposedly Seroquel leads to less d2 receptor up regulation, owing to its 'loose binding' to the d2 receptor. So, perhaps dopamine supersensitivty rebound is less of an issue. The issue with Seroquel, however, is that it can be effective for treating a variety of nonpsychotic illnesses as well (i.e. depression, gad, etc). So, while one might not need it for psychosis, there is a possibility that reducing it would lead to a worsening of other conditions.

The benefit of Seroquel, is that a therapeutic dose (say of 600mg) can be divided into 24x25mg. So, one could reduce by say 25mg a week over about half a year (of course, stopping, or taking longer if needed).

The problem with olanzapine, is that 20mg can be divided into 8x2.5mg, allowing for fewer increments of the taper. Of course, the 2.5mg could be split.

If somebody was to decrease Seroquel by 25mg a week. It would be less likely (IMHO) of a shock to the system or sudden relapse. Of course, it probably benefits to have a friend or family member keep an eye out, in case one is not able to recognize a return of symptoms.

Again, just thoughts.

Linkadge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou linkadge

Posted by SLS on November 4, 2017, at 12:15:22

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou SLS, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2017, at 10:03:41

Your suggestion makes sense.

I just spoke to a friend of mine who discontinued Seroquel 800 mg/day. It took two months for her to taper.


- Scott

> Again, I have no data on how long one would need to withdraw from Seroquel.
>
> Supposedly Seroquel leads to less d2 receptor up regulation, owing to its 'loose binding' to the d2 receptor. So, perhaps dopamine supersensitivty rebound is less of an issue. The issue with Seroquel, however, is that it can be effective for treating a variety of nonpsychotic illnesses as well (i.e. depression, gad, etc). So, while one might not need it for psychosis, there is a possibility that reducing it would lead to a worsening of other conditions.
>
> The benefit of Seroquel, is that a therapeutic dose (say of 600mg) can be divided into 24x25mg. So, one could reduce by say 25mg a week over about half a year (of course, stopping, or taking longer if needed).
>
> The problem with olanzapine, is that 20mg can be divided into 8x2.5mg, allowing for fewer increments of the taper. Of course, the 2.5mg could be split.
>
> If somebody was to decrease Seroquel by 25mg a week. It would be less likely (IMHO) of a shock to the system or sudden relapse. Of course, it probably benefits to have a friend or family member keep an eye out, in case one is not able to recognize a return of symptoms.
>
> Again, just thoughts.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 3:52:27

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou linkadge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2017, at 12:15:22

> Your suggestion makes sense.
>
> I just spoke to a friend of mine who discontinued Seroquel 800 mg/day. It took two months for her to taper

Hi Scott,

when was that? She did not have rebound psychosis? Was the Seroquel cross tapered with another AP?

That is really fast

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 3:56:39

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou linkadge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2017, at 12:15:22

It makes more sense to reduce by a certain percentage. 2.5 mg of 20 is not much, however 2.5 mg of 5mg is 50%!!

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 4:20:29

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 3:56:39

i think that that is why my previous attempts to reduce zyprexa failed. 2.5mg is ok for the first step but not ok when you hit 10mg Zyprexa. Its too much.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22

Posted by SLS on November 6, 2017, at 9:49:13

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 3:52:27

> > Your suggestion makes sense.
> >
> > I just spoke to a friend of mine who discontinued Seroquel 800 mg/day. It took two months for her to taper
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> when was that? She did not have rebound psychosis? Was the Seroquel cross tapered with another AP?
>
> That is really fast

Navane had been added first. This probably protected her from any rebound psychosis that might have occurred with the discontinuation of Seroquel. You might be adequately covered by Zyprexa such that you are protected from *rebound* psychosis upon the discontinuation of Seroquel. I know that this is a generalization, but Zyprexa is a stronger antipsychotic than is Seroquel. I guess it makes sense to choose Seroquel to discontinue first. Which one would you prefer to discontinue?


- Scott

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 11:55:12

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22, posted by SLS on November 6, 2017, at 9:49:13

Hi Scott,

Tardive dementia from Seroquel scares me more than diabetes from Zyprexa. My cognition is impaired.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Christ_empowered on November 6, 2017, at 14:06:20

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 11:55:12

hi, lamdage. have you talked the psychiatrist about getting down to a more standard dose of tranquilizer?

from what little I've read about it, other drugs can help ease the tapering/dosage reduction process. gabapentin, lyrica, benzodiazepines...maybe hydroxyzine or other sedating antihistamine drugs, since you're on so much Seroquel.

have you ever tried abilify? I think the dose is usually capped at 30mgs/day, but I read on mad in America that there's some data that indicates that long term treatment w/ abilify doesn't cause as much D2 upregulation as most other tranquilizers. I do not know the long term TD risk. There are case reports of tardive akathisia from abilify, but I'm fairly certain that's true of any tranquilizer.

I also read on mad in America that anticonvulsants can help w/ tardive psychosis, or at least...that's a going theory, anyway. I seem to recall the article I read mentioning lamictal w/ a tranquilizer.

I hope your situation improves.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 15:20:28

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Christ_empowered on November 6, 2017, at 14:06:20

hi Christempowered,

good to see you. I am not doing experiments anymore with meds... i had akathisia on abilify!

That could become tardive akathisia so that is not better than the meds i take now.

Regards

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 15:25:20

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Christ_empowered on November 6, 2017, at 14:06:20

i have translated a few texts from madinamerica for a german website

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22

Posted by linkadge on November 6, 2017, at 16:16:59

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 4:20:29

Hey,

You could reduce by 50% every 2 weeks. Of course, you'd never fully get off (Zeno's paradox).


Linkadge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by linkadge on November 6, 2017, at 16:19:37

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 15:25:20

You could try a small dose of melatonin with the AP. This may reduce some withdrawal symptoms and offer some possible protection against TD.

However, I don't like mixing melatonin with reuptake inhibiting antidepressants (makes me feel yukky)

Linkadge

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 16:28:31

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on November 6, 2017, at 16:16:59

Yes from what i have heard you reduce by X% until you dont notice any withdrawal effects anymore and then you just drop it.

Hmm melatonin? I could use some as i cant really sleep today. It gives me funny dreams though.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 16:40:58

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 16:28:31

i mean when the reductions dont cause symtoms anymore.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Christ_empowered on November 6, 2017, at 18:05:14

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 16:40:58

hi. i know you don't want to load up on supplements like I do, with Orthomolecular, but...adding in potent antioxidants seems like a good idea.

even something as simple as a good dose of vitamin C (I take time release myself, divided into 2 doses, AM and PM) and some natural form E w/mixed tocopherols could potentially help. taurine might be helpful, too, and one small study found that 4 grams taurine helped psychiatric symptoms when taken w/ a tranquilizer.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 18:14:53

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Christ_empowered on November 6, 2017, at 18:05:14

Hi Christempowered, no i do load up on supplements! http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20160521/msgs/1094223.html

What do you think?

hi. i know you don't want to load up on supplements like I do, with Orthomolecular, but...adding in potent antioxidants seems like a good idea.
>
> even something as simple as a good dose of vitamin C (I take time release myself, divided into 2 doses, AM and PM) and some natural form E w/mixed tocopherols could potentially help. taurine might be helpful, too, and one small study found that 4 grams taurine helped psychiatric symptoms when taken w/ a tranquilizer.
>
>

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 18:17:40

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 6, 2017, at 18:14:53

i take taurine and a multivitamin with alpha-TE 24mg. You can see in my /alter thread.

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22

Posted by Melusine on November 17, 2017, at 3:20:56

In reply to I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou, posted by Lamdage22 on November 1, 2017, at 5:42:47

Though I'm not bipolar, I had a switch to a mixed state while on phenelzine. I didn't know what was happening because I of course didn't recognise it. I was afraid to stop taking the Nardil: it felt to me like the best result I'd ever gotten. I went through some seriously bad % during that time, and did some stuff that really had me embarrassed in restrospect. I also gained a lot of weight even though I'd never had weight problems b4, and still haven't been able to get it all off.
My docs (I moved during this time, so I changed docs) thought there was something weird going on but my insistence that I was doing better than I ever had, etc., caused the second one to wait until I'd been on it for ~6 months before insisting I stop taking it.

Ces choses se passent....

 

Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou

Posted by Lamdage22 on November 21, 2017, at 11:25:19

In reply to Re: I have only been psychotic on Nardil. Never withou Lamdage22, posted by Melusine on November 17, 2017, at 3:20:56

Hi Melusine,

your history and mine are very similar. I also insisted i was doing so great.


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