Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1093796

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How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

I've been researching a lot lately about what could have possibly been an acute mystery illness I had 20 years ago that lead to my 20 year battle with mental illness ever since.

One thing that's caught my interest lately is a possible toxic reaction to a class of antibiotics called Fluoroquinolones. The week I got sick I had a few root canals done and antibiotics are routinely used as a prophylactic. I had extremely elevated liver enzymes and tested negative for all hep viruses. Acute liver injury is one of the possible outcomes of this drug.

This was actually posted by Phillipa 5 years ago:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023366.html

Apparently another thing this class of antibiotic can do is bind to receptors and cause their inhibition. One of the main receptors it binds to is GABA (also dopamine). The reduction in GABA input can cause not only SEVERE anxiety (which I started having that week) but also insane muscle rigidity and cramping. I remember there'd be moments I had to lie down with my limbs stretched out because any slightest movement would make me twitch and my body to clamp up like a rock. I even had a seizure.

So let's assume hypothetically this drug was the culprit, bound to my receptors and damaged them. Obviously the drug's cleared out after 20 years? Is there a way of regenerating receptors, or does neurogenesis apply to other brain cells? I keep researching this online and can't find much on receptor rejuvenation.

Cheers.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2017, at 17:10:24

In reply to How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

There are many medications which act as neurotransmitter antagonists. A simple example are antihistamines, which block the histamine receptors.

Another example is beta carbolines (in coffee) which inhibit gaba receptors.

Such neurotransmitter antagonists only exert their action for a period of time (usually until the drug is excreted). There is nothing inherently neurotoxic about a gaba antagonist.

Even if a drug induces a seizure, this does not say that it has induced permanent damage. It can take some time for neurotransmitters to balance themselves after a seizure, but I would not assume that your brain is necessarily damaged.

People with epilepsy have seizures all the time, and can recover. Of course, you want to limit future seizures, as frequently prolonged, repeated seizures can eventually lead to neurotoxicity.

I would treat your symptoms (depression, anxiety, whatever), and then eat well, sleep well and get good exercise. You'll be surprised how well you can recover.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 4, 2017, at 0:02:43

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2017, at 17:10:24

aricept, and nemanda and also i read nuerontin and lyrica have some nuero improving effects to damaged nerves (and some receptors, but it's not documented clearly)

also phenibut.....there's alot of meds i know but i can't think of right now.....ughhh stablon can have some rejuvinating effects on serotonin receptors, but if your talking like dopamine and NE which is usally downgraded from methamphetamine, cocaine.....MAOI's can help, mainly parnate.....but the only ones i know of are cognitive improvers like aricept

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by pontormo on January 4, 2017, at 10:18:07

In reply to How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

You say you had some root canals and that antibiotics were used. Let me ask, exactly which antibiotics? The most commonly used antibiotics for dental procedures are in the penicillin family, and fluoroquinolones, which are very strong antibiotics, seem to be rarely prescribed in such instances. I didn't see any mention of that even in the more common uses, which might have preceded the black box warnings in 2008.

You don't say you were given such antibiotics, so I wonder if you remember what in particular you took.

Also I'm not clear on what sort of mystery illness you had, and more especially what the link was between the illness and any mental health illness you have or how elevated liver enzymes were involved in causing any emotional problems.

It seems that there are so many unknowns in the history that it would be hard to assign a causal impact to the antibiotics.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? pontormo

Posted by Prefect on January 5, 2017, at 8:20:48

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by pontormo on January 4, 2017, at 10:18:07

No doubt. I don't remember what antibiotic was prescribed and I can't definitely say it was an antibiotic that caused it.

My SGOT (AST) shot up to around 1200. My SGPT (ALT) shot up to around 800. Levels this high are only observed in Viral Hepatitis, and I tested negative for all of them (A,B,C,D,E,EBV,CMV), and acute toxic liver injury. I can't image a local oral anesthetic or any materials put in my mouth (dental alloy, posts, etc) doing this to my liver.

But I've read case stories of some idiosyncratic reactions to antibiotics that led to liver enzymes being this high (or even higher) and various functional and mental syndromes that lasted for years.

Before that week I was a completely healthy, functioning person.

But you're right, I can't be sure.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by Pontormo on January 6, 2017, at 8:06:51

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? pontormo, posted by Prefect on January 5, 2017, at 8:20:48

I meant not so much that you can't be sure, but that you might want to question why you think this particular incident cause not only whatever physical problems it caused but also lomg term emotional damage.

There's a difference between nerve damage and emotional damage, or nerve damage and mental problems. I can imagine, depending on how old you were when this happened, that the emotional issues were separate, even if they coincided in time. Or they could have been caused by some things that happened in your life because of the physical problems, or experiences you had with people around them.

I also wondered what you had done-- I'm assuming you did other things over the years-- to get treatment or some kind of help.

Usually people advise looking for the simplest, or simpler solutions, rather than those that are obscure, or complex and highly dependent on a lot of unsupported interporlations (such as the drug might have been a fluoroquinolone.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? Pontormo

Posted by Prefect on January 6, 2017, at 19:11:29

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Pontormo on January 6, 2017, at 8:06:51

Up to that week I had no health or mental issues. The 2 week period I had the dental work done is when I came down with the mysterious illness; all the physical and mental symptom practically started on the exact same day. Blood tests only showed hepatitis and slight Creatinine Kinase elevation.

Doctors, after my liver enzymes went back to normal and I continued to have all my symptom for about a year, finally diagnosed me with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. They put me on low dose Luvox.

Over the years I've realized this was a false diagnosis because I have great exercise tolerance. I've had a sleep study done; no sleep apnea, but frequent awakenings. There aren't many diseases that continue for 20 years with the same symptoms and don't turn into something else.

Lyme Disease - I don't get joint/bone pain
Celiac - I don't have any weight loss
Parasites - Been tested

Also, the only non-infectious event that causes liver enzymes to be that high in absence of jaundice is acute liver toxic injury.

So far all I've done is titrated the Luvox to 100 mg/day over the past 20 years to manage my anxiety. Not much else (I exercise regularly).

Last few days I've been curious about glutamate activity and whether working on that could be the answer. I need to research more to find a glutamatergic supplement/drug I may be comfortable with.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? Prefect

Posted by chumbawumba on January 12, 2017, at 18:58:41

In reply to How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

> I've been researching a lot lately about what could have possibly been an acute mystery illness I had 20 years ago that lead to my 20 year battle with mental illness ever since.
>
> One thing that's caught my interest lately is a possible toxic reaction to a class of antibiotics called Fluoroquinolones. The week I got sick I had a few root canals done and antibiotics are routinely used as a prophylactic. I had extremely elevated liver enzymes and tested negative for all hep viruses. Acute liver injury is one of the possible outcomes of this drug.
>
> This was actually posted by Phillipa 5 years ago:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023366.html
>
> Apparently another thing this class of antibiotic can do is bind to receptors and cause their inhibition. One of the main receptors it binds to is GABA (also dopamine). The reduction in GABA input can cause not only SEVERE anxiety (which I started having that week) but also insane muscle rigidity and cramping. I remember there'd be moments I had to lie down with my limbs stretched out because any slightest movement would make me twitch and my body to clamp up like a rock. I even had a seizure.
>
> So let's assume hypothetically this drug was the culprit, bound to my receptors and damaged them. Obviously the drug's cleared out after 20 years? Is there a way of regenerating receptors, or does neurogenesis apply to other brain cells? I keep researching this online and can't find much on receptor rejuvenation.
>
> Cheers.

You don't carry around the same receptors your whole life, they are recycled and up and down regulated. What you are talking about really is the possibility of epigenetic damage where the ability to express the gene for that receptor has been altered.

The fact that you can function at all though is testimony to the fact that there may be alterations but the end result has been an attenuation rather than wholesale destruction.

I remember there was a case where some heroin addicts were exposed to a fentanyl synthetic byproduct that produced instant Parkinsons disease after injection. Bummer, right. Well in any case they treat Parkinsons with drugs like Pramipexole, a dopamine agonist.

And it may be that something like that , not necessarily that specific drug, but a similar approach is needed here. But at this point you reallly need an expert opinion, a really sharp psychopharmacologist to help you.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? Prefect

Posted by chumbawumba on January 12, 2017, at 19:18:51

In reply to How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

> I've been researching a lot lately about what could have possibly been an acute mystery illness I had 20 years ago that lead to my 20 year battle with mental illness ever since.
>
> One thing that's caught my interest lately is a possible toxic reaction to a class of antibiotics called Fluoroquinolones. The week I got sick I had a few root canals done and antibiotics are routinely used as a prophylactic. I had extremely elevated liver enzymes and tested negative for all hep viruses. Acute liver injury is one of the possible outcomes of this drug.
>
> This was actually posted by Phillipa 5 years ago:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023366.html
>
> Apparently another thing this class of antibiotic can do is bind to receptors and cause their inhibition. One of the main receptors it binds to is GABA (also dopamine). The reduction in GABA input can cause not only SEVERE anxiety (which I started having that week) but also insane muscle rigidity and cramping. I remember there'd be moments I had to lie down with my limbs stretched out because any slightest movement would make me twitch and my body to clamp up like a rock. I even had a seizure.
>
> So let's assume hypothetically this drug was the culprit, bound to my receptors and damaged them. Obviously the drug's cleared out after 20 years? Is there a way of regenerating receptors, or does neurogenesis apply to other brain cells? I keep researching this online and can't find much on receptor rejuvenation.
>
> Cheers.

In addition to my last post. I was just thinking, there is a school of thought that says in cases like this you load up the system with precursor molecules. So for depression it might be a ton of 5-HTP and for Parkinsons it would we a ton of L-Dopa or L-Tyrosine or both. For GABA it would be Glutamine. I've personally had limited success with this in treating myself but for a while it was brilliantly effective (5-HTP). Slow acting but the effect builds.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? chumbawumba

Posted by Prefect on January 12, 2017, at 20:34:03

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? Prefect, posted by chumbawumba on January 12, 2017, at 19:18:51

chumbawamba you just hit a very serendipitous nail in the head with your last post. Lately I've been feverishly trying to understand Tyrosine and Glutamine.

Tyrosine, because I feel my norepinephrine and dopamine is depleted (I've felt so for 20 yrs, but more so lately because I'm a working single father of a 2 year old who puts me through challenging and variable sleep schedules) because when I wake up in the morning I feel stupid for hours. When I take more caffein I just get palpitations but my head stays stupid, at least till lunch time. In some quack arenas this is called adrenal fatigue, and they might be onto something. So far I've taken Tyrosine a couple of times and felt nothing. Last time a whole gram, but that was 1.5 hr after eating, maybe I should do it first thing in the morning. I thought you'd feel Tyrosine that day if it's going to do anything for you?

And Glutamine. My illness started with a gastrointestinal event, and in some quack arenas they think loss of intestinal protection wall can lead to an inflammatory process that may lead to, among a whole bunch of things, mental illness, and they might be onto something. They call this leaky gut, and say one of the substances that can fix this is L-Glutamine supplementation. Lately I've been trying to figure out if I should take L-Glutamine OR N-Acetyl Glucosamine for this. Oh and then there's NAC. I need to figure out which to try next.

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? Prefect

Posted by chumbawumba on January 12, 2017, at 22:37:17

In reply to Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage? chumbawumba, posted by Prefect on January 12, 2017, at 20:34:03

> chumbawamba you just hit a very serendipitous nail in the head with your last post. Lately I've been feverishly trying to understand Tyrosine and Glutamine.
>
> Tyrosine, because I feel my norepinephrine and dopamine is depleted (I've felt so for 20 yrs, but more so lately because I'm a working single father of a 2 year old who puts me through challenging and variable sleep schedules) because when I wake up in the morning I feel stupid for hours. When I take more caffein I just get palpitations but my head stays stupid, at least till lunch time. In some quack arenas this is called adrenal fatigue, and they might be onto something. So far I've taken Tyrosine a couple of times and felt nothing. Last time a whole gram, but that was 1.5 hr after eating, maybe I should do it first thing in the morning. I thought you'd feel Tyrosine that day if it's going to do anything for you?
>
> And Glutamine. My illness started with a gastrointestinal event, and in some quack arenas they think loss of intestinal protection wall can lead to an inflammatory process that may lead to, among a whole bunch of things, mental illness, and they might be onto something. They call this leaky gut, and say one of the substances that can fix this is L-Glutamine supplementation. Lately I've been trying to figure out if I should take L-Glutamine OR N-Acetyl Glucosamine for this. Oh and then there's NAC. I need to figure out which to try next.

I don't think this is a very well researched topic because no one stands to make a lot of money selling unpatentable nutritional supplements.

But my psychiatrist when I was undergoing TMS gave me these supplements which apparently you can only get through a Doctor and they aren't all that cheap..

http://chknutrition.com/product/neuroreplete/

Personally I don't think they are any better than something you could buy on Amazon or Ebay.

At the time she pointed me to a paper that was called something like "The Bundle Damage Hypothesis" this Doctor was discrediting the monoamine theory of depression and saying that( to paraphrase) nerve bundles have been compromised, so it's like you're using thinner gauge wiring so you've got to push harder to get current through. I think the science is a little flaky. I never felt much difference from the supplements. The TMS on the other hand made a big difference.

http://www.healthyselfnow.com/MTOprotocol.php

 

Re: How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?

Posted by phidippus on October 7, 2017, at 14:38:05

In reply to How to regenerate receptors after toxic damage?, posted by Prefect on January 2, 2017, at 21:39:13

None of the above. Receptors are constructed from protein molecules. They have no intrinsic capability to heal or regenerate themselves. Rather than being repaired, they are generally replaced. Receptor (biochemistry) numbers are under feedback control and are adjusted as needed. They are shuttled between the cell surface and intracellular depots. The same could be said for swaths of cell membrane. Cells are very dynamic.

Eric


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