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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by PilledOut on June 20, 2016, at 13:25:56
I've tried many different meds, and benzos are the only ones that help with my depression and anxiety. I've been alternating between Xanax and Ativan for awhile. I wish I could take them every day, but I limit them to a couple of times a week to avoid tolerance.
There's the big 4 of benzos - Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin, and Valium. I've taken Klonopin, but it hasn't been helpful. Valium makes me feel weird, and doesn't help me relax much. I've taken temazepam once for sleep, and it worked okay.
Are there any other benzos out there that could be helpful? I'm especially interested in those that have less of a tendency to build tolerance - so I can take them more often, daily if possible. I have depression, social anxiety, generalized anxiety, and OCD, so anything that can help with those would be great.
Does anyone else rotate benzos? Any "cocktail" of benzos you'd recommend?
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 20, 2016, at 14:26:22
In reply to Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by PilledOut on June 20, 2016, at 13:25:56
maybe...serax, tranxene, even good ole Librium, depending on your needs.
Posted by jonhed on June 20, 2016, at 14:27:00
In reply to Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by PilledOut on June 20, 2016, at 13:25:56
It may be a dangerous road to take, because of the potential addiction and abuse pontential, but i have some suggestions, if your doctor is liberal.
Clomethiazole doesn't cause cross-tolerance to other benzos.
Neither do Chlordiazepoxide, at least to some extent.Also the Z-Analogs i very helpful in this sort of situation, because they doesn't build cross-tolerance in any way what so ever with any benzo.
So my suggestion is (take in consider that i am very liberal and sort of addicted to benzos):
Rotate between
1. Nitrazepam for 3 days.
2. Chlordiazepoxide for 3 days.
3. Clonazepam for 3 days.
4. Flunitrazepam when needed (not often)
And the most important is to take some days "off" benzos and take zopiclone for like 2 weeks, then your tolerance is gone.
You don't need to follow the exact advice, because no doctor would ever write a script for that much benzodiazepines.
But the z-drugs are very good for avoiding tolerance to any other benzo + it stops the withdrawal of the benzo you take for the moment completely.
In this way you don't need to take massive doses of any benzo, and still get that immediate effect just from like 5mg of nitrazepam, instead of taking 20mg a day and don't feel anything.Disclaimer: I believe that some people NEED benzos to live. I have friends who have committed suicide because their doctors is benzofobic.
Don't hate on me please.
Posted by jonhed on June 20, 2016, at 14:29:48
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 20, 2016, at 14:27:00
Have in mind that for zopiclone, the anxiolytic dose range between 10-20mg.
5mg just makes me sleepy.
But that's just me folks!
Posted by jonhed on June 20, 2016, at 14:31:56
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by Christ_empowered on June 20, 2016, at 14:26:22
Good, oxazepam is effective to!
50-150mg is a life saver for anxiety (daily dose, not one)
Posted by PilledOut on June 20, 2016, at 14:58:57
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 20, 2016, at 14:29:48
Thanks for the responses.
Those benzos you guys mentioned are rarely talked about. How did you hear of them? All I ever hear of is the big 4.
Yes, I've taken a crazy number of different meds, and none helped at all except benzos. Benzos are very helpful for making my life less painful, but doctors hate prescribing them. I'm actually trying to find a new psychiatrist. The public clinic I go to is phasing out benzos, and my psychiatrist there is decreasing my dosage every month. Also, she won't prescribe more than one type of benzo at a time. It's been really tough to find someone who will prescribe benzos, and my options are limited because I have Medicare/Medi-cal.
Posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 11:01:47
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by PilledOut on June 20, 2016, at 14:58:57
In sweden you get nitrazepam quite easy for sleep if the doctor isn't benzophobic (which isn't that many).
And Clomethiazole is prescribed in psychiatric clinics in sweden, but is on it's way to be taken of the market for some dumb reason.
Because it is one of the best medications i've ever taken due to the fact that it is not abusable in my opinion, which xanax definitely is...Librium is on the market in most countries but sweden has recently taken it away unfortunately.
And zopiclone is standard here for sleep disorders. It is far better than eszopiclone, so if you have the option between them, please take zopiclone.
I have a question for you to actually.
I just changed my zopiclone 15mg and nitrazepam 10mg to clonazepam 2mg instead, mainly because i got a little triggered by nitrazepam (i'm an former addict).
Have you been helped at all from clonazepam, and which dose did you have?
I got it for hppd, ocd and dissociative symtpoms in general. Do you think it can help?
Also i start memantine in 11 days, next-next monday, for ocd and neuroprotective causes.
My psychiatrist thinks that i might benefit from it cause of the brain damage that my former abuse has caused me and my ocd.
She currently uses it on people with autism and have had good outcome from it.I do not have autism but it might help anyway, hopefully..
Do someone have experience from memantine for ocd or other stuff?
Posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2016, at 11:29:26
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 11:01:47
No experience with this but since I myself was never an addict and always have taken less than prescribed and now age 70 I continue the same dose of xanax and valium that have taken since age 24. Back then they were the miracle med. I take a total of 1mg xanax at night and l0mg of valium only at bedtime. Nothing during the day. At night also 25mg of luvox OCD, excessive worry, and 2.5mg of lexapro which most likely does nothing. my phyciatrist has no hesitation in continuing the benzos and other meds. Medicaire now covers benzos as antipsychotics were deemed to dangerous in older patients.Phillipa
Posted by PilledOut on June 21, 2016, at 11:32:58
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 11:01:47
Ok, it makes sense that the popularity of benzos varies from country to country.
jonhed, I also have OCD, as well as depression and anxiety. Klonopin didn't help me. But you can give it a try; people react differently to meds. Good luck! :)
Posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 12:53:01
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by PilledOut on June 21, 2016, at 11:32:58
Sorry to hear that, and it makes me a little worried to be honest. But as you say, everyone reacts different.
Have anything helped your ocd?
Because the one and only thing that have helped me is methadone (i know that i mention it all the time, but it has been a miracle for me).
I have right now a heave battle with myself over why the hell i discontinued my favourite benzodiazepines when my doctor even didn't push me to it.
But as an former addict i can't control it and i have(!) to be honest with myself if i don't want to start shooting up again.
Posted by PilledOut on June 21, 2016, at 12:56:55
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 12:53:01
Worried about what?
Benzos help overall with my OCD, which is very closely related to my anxiety. It's an overall anxiety-related thing. My OCD isn't typical hand-washing, counting, or hair-pulling. It's a more mental sort, related to perfectionism and anxiety.
Benzos also help improve my mood. Other meds never helped me feel better.
Posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 13:04:29
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful? » jonhed, posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2016, at 11:29:26
Oh, it is very encouraging to hear!
Do you still get some sort of effect from your xanax and valium?
If so, i'm very happy for you and hope that it is the case for me to.Antipsychotics is contraindicated for me to because of Oculogyric crisis is caused by every neuroleptic i take.
It can be extremely hard to believe, but it's true and it is proven in my medical records.
Even thc and 50% of the antidepressants i have taken cause that to me..Therefore the doctors have limited options for me..
I don't wanna sound special in some way, but as we all know, people react different to medications.
And the Oculogyric crisis that occurs for me all the time is EXTREMELY unusual.
Posted by Horse on June 21, 2016, at 16:14:04
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 13:04:29
I wanted to comment that oculogyric effect sounds awful! I'm so sorry. I googled because I'd never heard of the effect.
Back to the main subject, rotating with z drugs would be the same as another benzo because my understanding is they are cross tolerant if that is the proper term.Another observation is that rotating meds could be of questionable benefit because of inconsistency of medication could find expression in moods and symptoms.
Xanax is great for anxiety, but yeah, as you know, it builds dependency quickly! I don't know about treating OCD with benzos, and I'm trying to recall if Phiddipus used them for his ocd.
I've heard great things about metamine, although it does not work for everyone. Ocd seems wicked hard to treat, so I wish you the best of luck. I've gad which can flare under stress and some obsessional thinking that borders on ocd. I take Lyrica every day. I hear it's highly controlled in Sweden. Anyways, Lyrica helps tons to reduce my overall anxiety level.
Posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 16:48:08
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful? » jonhed, posted by Horse on June 21, 2016, at 16:14:04
Now i have to say this, and don't take it as me being a besserwisser.
Z-drugs do NOT cross-tolerance with benzodiazepines.
I know this for a fact(!) as i have abused benzodiazepines for almost 10 years, and when my dose was on 20mg alprazolam per day, or at 40mg clonazepam per day, or at 200mg diazepam per day (i know it's huge doses, but after some years you don't feel a thing, and even my near relatives and friends didn't notice if i was on 20mg klonopin, neither did i. Thats what abuse do to you), i could eat 20mg of zopiclone or 20mg of zolpidem and be completely "out of it".
In the "addiction community" the cost of an zolpidem or zopiclone pill is far more expensive then normal benzos just because of this reason.
Even now when i'm "clean", i rotate between them and have done it for 1 year, and every time it gives me the initial effect when i rotate between z-drugs and normal benzos.
Even my pdoc say the same thing, and i've talked to several pdocs about it, and they are concerned about the illegal market because if a doctor nows that your tolerance for benzos is high, there are no need to worry if one comes in to the clinic and have taken 10-20 xanax. But when the person carries with them a handful of z-drugs to, you get locked in sometimes in the psychiatric ward cause of the danger with people who thinks that it has a cross tolerance.
Now i was super clear with this, but it is very important to know. Harm reduction is everything.
Back to the subject!I will update you guys on how the memantine works for me! :-)
Good night.
Posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 17:33:07
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful? » jonhed, posted by Horse on June 21, 2016, at 16:14:04
Good to hear that lyrica works for you, i like it to as an adjunct to other anxiolytics.
You're right that it is controlled in sweden, but the lowest level (like 3 in the states, if 1 is the highest), but it has been so wrong here in sweden regarding lyrica cause approximately 10 years ago when it came out on the market as an anxiolytic and not just and antiepileptic here in sweden, everyone wanted to have it because of the euforic effects it gives you the first 2-3 days you take it in 300-600mg.
And it took like 2 years for the doctors to find out why suddenly every drug addict wanted to have lyrica, and when they found out i think they became mortified and felt tricked in some way. And after that it is nearly impossible to obtain it. It's even easier to get flunitrazepam, in some cases, that causes 6 years in prison just for having 100 1mg pills on you. Take that in comparison to having 1000 lyrica on you and you get at the highest 6 month in prison.We have clinics that specialize on pregabalin-tapering, and i have seen people in clinics tapering off their doses varying from 2000-3000mg a day, and it is not a fun sight. they are in great danger.
Yeah, now i have given you all a lesson in how sweden works. Sorry for changing topic all the time, i hope that i will not be banned from this forum because of this.
Posted by Horse on June 21, 2016, at 19:10:41
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful?, posted by jonhed on June 21, 2016, at 17:33:07
Why in heaven would you be banned?
Good to know all the information. Thanks and good luck with metamine :)
Posted by jonhed on June 23, 2016, at 18:57:25
In reply to Re: Any little-known benzos that could be helpful? » jonhed, posted by Horse on June 21, 2016, at 19:10:41
thanks!
This is the end of the thread.
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