Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1051212

Shown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by Guy on September 23, 2013, at 19:53:58

If anxiety and panic are caused by a deficiency in serotonin, why do anti-depressants not help me? I was on a high dose of doxepin for several months and the increased anxiety just about killed me. Also bad experiences with Zoloft and Buspar. I can tolerate Remeron but it does not stop panic or do much for anxiety. I don't get it! I'm trying to decide if I should try another SSRI such as Celexa, or an MAOI such as Nardil. However, what's the point if low serotonin is not my problem?

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by SLS on September 23, 2013, at 21:16:42

In reply to Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Guy on September 23, 2013, at 19:53:58

I think that you ask the right questions, but your suppositions may be wrong.

> If anxiety and panic are caused by a deficiency in serotonin,

*If*

I don't think that this has been proven.

> why do anti-depressants not help me?

I don't know. Neither do I know why an antidepressant is anxiolytic for anyone else. I have to believe that someone could help you more than I can, though.

> I was on a high dose of doxepin for several months and the increased anxiety just about killed me.

Too much NE?

> Also bad experiences with Zoloft and Buspar. I can tolerate Remeron but it does not stop panic or do much for anxiety. I don't get it! I'm trying to decide if I should try another SSRI such as Celexa, or an MAOI such as Nardil.

> However, what's the point if low serotonin is not my problem?

*if*

I don't now how "low serotonin" can be measured and made relevant to clinical presentation.

Have you tried:

Luvox?
Paxil?
Effexor?

What about antipsychotics?

What about anticonvulsant mood stablizers or lithium.

Nardil is a good choice for some people. However, I wouldn't know how to predict outcome based upon your treatment history.

I think that the most important thing to come away with from this post is the recognition that "they" know a lot less than we think they do. However, they do know far more than I do. This understanding is not so much important in attempting to choose the drugs to treat mental illness with as it is to choose drugs to reject from consideration.

I don't see a benzodiazepine listed here.

I know that I haven't added anything very productive here. I have not answered any of your questions in a way that would help you make treatment decisions. I'm not feeling terribly smart right now, but perhaps this is a better way to be than feeling very smart.

Good luck.


- Scott

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by Phillipa on September 23, 2013, at 22:43:31

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by SLS on September 23, 2013, at 21:16:42

I've seen it posted so many times here that initially most do need a benzos until an SSRI kicks in. After years of playing this game I no longer agree. I feel that the benzos are for anxiety and who knows what SSRI's are for? The money for pharmacy companies? I don't know. But I know my own experience and the first time given SSRI had to take Lopressor with Xanax so the anxiety wouldn't be that bad. Three months later gave up the Lopressor. Stuck with low dose Xanax. Some do experience anti-anxiety with SSRI's I'm just not one of them. Phillipa

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by Christ_empowered on September 24, 2013, at 0:21:09

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Phillipa on September 23, 2013, at 22:43:31

Psych drugs don't fix your brain. They create artificial brain states that help ameliorate (hopefully) mental distress.

SSRIs=unusually high serotonin levels. I think there's also a dampening of dopamine levels.

Benzos=unusually high GABA levels. Can cause depression.

Those are 2 examples.

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered

Posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 5:12:56

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Christ_empowered on September 24, 2013, at 0:21:09

> Benzos=unusually high GABA levels. Can cause depression.

Other than Klonopin, what benzos cause depression (as opposed to sedation) most?


- Scott

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by gadchik on September 24, 2013, at 6:28:48

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 5:12:56

http://www.panic411.com/
alot of great info in this link. I think low dose ssris work for anxiety, very low dose,until u adjust, then gradually increase. But still, for some, they just dont ever work.

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by Christ_empowered on September 24, 2013, at 10:46:12

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 5:12:56


I was under the impression that long term treatment can cause depression and emotional numbing in pretty much anybody with the right cocktail of meds and/or individual sensitivity. Maybe I'm wrong.

Xanax is, I guess, the exception the rule, since it helps some depressive states in high enough doses.

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered

Posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 12:16:27

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Christ_empowered on September 24, 2013, at 10:46:12

> > Benzos=unusually high GABA levels. Can cause depression.

> > I was under the impression that long term treatment can cause depression and emotional numbing in pretty much anybody with the right cocktail of meds and/or individual sensitivity. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think that the association of depression with chronic benzodiazepine usage is greatly exaggerated, and may be little more than a superstition. Clonazapam is the exception here. It most definitely can precipitate depression.

I think you are right about Xanax having antidepressant properties.


- Scott

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2013, at 20:21:35

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 12:16:27

I so agree with this. Years ago I think I spoke of how klonopin actually made me feel suicidal when I wasn't. Just stopped it and restarted Xanax low dose. As for the SSRI's got to read the article. Phillipa

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » gadchik

Posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2013, at 20:29:26

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by gadchik on September 24, 2013, at 6:28:48

Mine has always led to depression hence true panic disorder not depression. Phillipa

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Guy

Posted by Zyprexa on September 24, 2013, at 20:33:02

In reply to Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Guy on September 23, 2013, at 19:53:58

SSRIs never helped my anxiety. Zyprexa on the other hand always does! Maybe you could try that again, maybe at a higher dose?

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » SLS

Posted by doxogenic boy on September 25, 2013, at 16:03:57

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin? » Christ_empowered, posted by SLS on September 24, 2013, at 12:16:27

> I think that the association of depression with chronic benzodiazepine usage is greatly exaggerated, and may be little more than a superstition. Clonazapam is the exception here. It most definitely can precipitate depression.
--------

This is interesting. I used clonazepam 1 mg every day at bedtime from 2007 - 2010. When I tapered off, my mood lifted. Now I use 1 mg clonazepam (at bedtime) a few times a month. Could that influence on my mood?

- doxogenic

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by bleauberry on September 29, 2013, at 17:47:30

In reply to Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by Guy on September 23, 2013, at 19:53:58

I've had severe anxiety with panic before. Some of the common meds were sort of ok as bandaids, but I mean they did nothing to improve my future outlook.

SSRIs can be a bad choice sometimes because they flood the receptor with serotonin, it can get too excited, that's the anxiety stuff, and it takes maybe 2 months or so to start to tame down and adjust, and then fully adjusted in 4-6 months, but which time you are comfortably numb....no anxiety, no nothing else either, just blahness.

The concept that a deficiency of serotonin causes anxiety and panic is in my thinking false. It could be one of the causes, but is not universally the cause.

For example, I was able to eventually nail my down....it was worst in morning, especially when waking, another strong wave in late afternoon, and then somewhat peace in late evening. When my low and out-of-curve cortisol levels got improved (months of certain herbs) the anxiety panic stuff was completely magically gone. No meds needed anymore.

In my opinion anxiety/panic is more related to the adrenaline/epinephrine/norepinephrine circuitry. That's because at both ends of the balance....too low, or too high...anxiety and panic result.

Serotonin and GABA calm things down. So if there is a deficiency of one of those, then the adranline stuff could be too much, and thus anxiety. Xanax and klonopin can work in minutes through the gaba network.

Best bets, from my vantage point:
No ssri's.
Rhodioloa Rosea and/or
Eleuthero or
Ashwaghanda

All of these are called adaptogen herbs and have hundreds of scientific studies behind them. Which one is best for you is not predictable. Most people will find one or the other too stimulating or too calming or something, but one will be good. These work over a period of months to gently bring things back into sync, mainly in the adrenalin/cortisol/serotonin/dopamine circuits, but many other mechanisms as well.

I'm pretty sure if you were on one of those, Rhodiola is my best bet, for three months, the stuff you are dealing with would be gone, and probably before then.

Another reason for my anxiety and overall jitteriness was the toxins of infection, in my case Lyme disease. And that was also the primary cause of my 15 year treatment resistant major depression. 90% if all that crap is magically gone, with most of the credit going to the antibiotics that targeted Bartonella (Bart and psychiatric are close friends). Bart is a lyme co-infection and can also come from cats.

The point I am trying to make is....anxiety and panic are caused by a wide variety of reasons, with low serotonin being only one of multiple possibilities. Everything from low adrenalin and high adrenalin, low cortisol and high cortisol, low serotonin, low gaba, epinephrine/norepinephrine too much, foreign substances such as poisons, pesticides...or normal excretions of unsuspected bacteria, of which are neurotoxic and neuroreceptors and thus are know for causing every psychiatric symptom in the book.

> If anxiety and panic are caused by a deficiency in serotonin, why do anti-depressants not help me? I was on a high dose of doxepin for several months and the increased anxiety just about killed me. Also bad experiences with Zoloft and Buspar. I can tolerate Remeron but it does not stop panic or do much for anxiety. I don't get it! I'm trying to decide if I should try another SSRI such as Celexa, or an MAOI such as Nardil. However, what's the point if low serotonin is not my problem?

 

Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?

Posted by phidippus on October 1, 2013, at 7:51:04

In reply to Re: Are anxiety and panic always linked to serotonin?, posted by SLS on September 23, 2013, at 21:16:42

>I don't think that this has been proven.

Maybe not proven, but certainly a view supported by much evidence.

> why do anti-depressants not help me?

If you're bipolar then the picture becomes more complicated.

> I was on a high dose of doxepin for several months and the increased anxiety just about killed me.

>Too much NE?

No. I'm still betting on bipolar.

I don't think Nardil will help you at all. Have you tried a mood stabilizer?

Eric


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.