Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1020243

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 26, 2012, at 14:57:09

Hi

Im a panic disorder patient,that was ok 5 years with lyrica, remeron and trazodone, small dose. had some panic attacks and started benzo use for 1 month, bad decision.

It appears my body is alot different from others. I started benzodiazepines with dose of 1mg. I have used them for a month (clonazepam). I became physically addicted to this dose in1 month. I dont want to up my dose i want to wean it off. Nearly ct:d from 1mg I got to 0.5mg within about 1 week and then cut it of had such a bad withdrawal reaction at that time. I tried to stop taking it, ct and had some really bad withdrawal. I was on ct for a week, and couldnt make it. Had to reinstate back to 1mg, now feeling ok;ish. First day on 1mg. So back to beginning.

My other medication is lyrica 750mg, remeron 7,5mg and trazodone 25mg. These both were initially to help me sleep, but when i was feeling well i ate them during the day (made me less edgy).

FIST:
ID like to know does it prolong or do what to my withdrawal if lyrica potentiates benzos trough cyp3a4 inhibition. Should it make withdrawal bad or good in general. Lyrica has also some anticonvulsant properties, so thats a +.

Im eating trazodone 25mg , remeron 7,5mg and lyrica 750mg. and the clon.
I was taking trazodone in morning, and remeron during the day made me less edgy my fiance also noted this. Should i
switch back to eating them during the night, or do you have some other medication in mind to help me sleep during the withdrawal. If i can get 4 hours of sleep i think i can make it cos i have to taper much slower this time. Sleep is the most important thing during taper because with 0 hours sleep its hard to wd. Benadryl is not available in finland, id surely take that, but i camt ;(

The older antihistamines are not available here either. I think a good 5ht2c antagonizer would do the job, but i dont know. I cant eat more trazodone or mirtazapine they make me more anxious in higher doses. What other options i have then these? cyproheptadine is not available here either nor the older antihistamines except atarax but thats not working well 4me. I guess i could fly to london or somewhere where i could get over the counter meds like these. I dunno. Quite desperate since my daily symptoms were electric shocks , thoughts of going crazy, serious tingling in arms and feet, depersonalisation type of thing, crazy shakiness. Things where i thought several times a day that i cannot make it. But i have to major panic attacks. If my tolerance rises this fast, there is no way i can up my dose.

I had clonidine, but it only worked for a small period of time with alleviating my bp, it seemed to chill douwn the tingling electric shock type of feeling to a certain extent.

I know my second try must be really slow, cos i cannot just ct from 0.5mg. The symptoms at that stage were just so bad, that i thought i can make it. Bad decision.

I think i am one of the few people to develope tolerance this fast?

Help regarding something that might help with sleep and some other wd symptoms somewhat. The 5ht2c inhibitors seem to do the job because i was always calmer when i took remeron (during the day) then i was before. My fiance also noted this so i guess there is something to it.

Valdoxan is another option (agomelantine) , but i have heard melatonin also potentiates benzos, though it only affects melatonin receptors. so i dunno if its good or bad. I have heard its somewhat anxiolytic ,and maybe a bit sedative, but i dunno. Then there are some tricyclics like amitriptyline (elavil) , but im unsure if i can take it in small doses when im already on these other ad:s during the day. Though extremely low doses.

What do you experts think i could have as adjunctve meds to help me sleep and not get into ths is catatonic state i was yesterday, a week after i ct:d.

Sorry for the long post, i hope you could answer all or most of my questions. As many meds that come in to your mind to help taper please. But small doses so i can change and test what works best for me.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 26, 2012, at 15:01:44

In reply to benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 26, 2012, at 14:57:09

Sorry for a few messed up words, like i said im ok:ish.;)

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan

Posted by Bryn B on June 26, 2012, at 16:01:42

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 26, 2012, at 15:01:44

hi...
sorry you're going through this, ive been there and it sucks.
here's what works (I was on benzos for years and you can't cut them cold turkey): have your doc switch yo to Valium (an equivalent dose to your current klonopin). taper with Valium over a couple of months--it takes awhile and if you don't want symptoms, definitely don't do a fast taper. Valium is the only benzo to taper with.

I would consider going off the lyrica & starting a low dose of lexapro (10 mg). the lexapro and Valium taper should really help. staying on clonodine can't hurt.

good luck!

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2012, at 16:50:21

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan, posted by Bryn B on June 26, 2012, at 16:01:42

Valium longest acting benzo and when in detox they will taper a person off benzos and alchohol in a few days only. Stays in your system I think up to 200 hours or can. Phillipa

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by SLS on June 26, 2012, at 16:58:01

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan, posted by Bryn B on June 26, 2012, at 16:01:42

There is some interest in using Trileptal (oxcarbazepine) to mitigate the benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18821451


- Scott

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » Phillipa

Posted by Bryn B on June 26, 2012, at 17:02:37

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2012, at 16:50:21

it's a toss up as to whether Valium or klonopin is longer; they are both the longest acting benzos. detoxes/rehabs use benzos to help people wd from alcohol so they won't get seizures. I believe Librium is used most often when dealing w alcohol.

that said, I have too much experience w/ benzo taper/wd, including many detox and rehab stints. the protocol w/ them (for benzos) is Valium over 7-14 days depending on your existing dose. this is still NOT the correct way to do it--that's way too short of a detox for benzos. I've had seizures even after being detoxed this way. the only good way to do it is a long, slow taper using Valium (not klonopin!) ,. Valium allows for more exact dosing.

for more info, research heather Ashton on the web...

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by Bryn B. on June 26, 2012, at 17:48:14

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by SLS on June 26, 2012, at 16:58:01

> There is some interest in using Trileptal (oxcarbazepine) to mitigate the benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18821451
>
>
> - Scott

Trileptal can def be helpful. I've used it w/ lexapro to come off of high doses of klonopin (again, w/ Valium!). Sometimes, though, w/ benzo withdrawal, less is more. I highly suggest doing it w/ a clean ssri (celexa or lexapro)--these will work great, even at low doses, on your anxiety.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » Bryn B

Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2012, at 22:01:45

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » Phillipa, posted by Bryn B on June 26, 2012, at 17:02:37

Personally through my own personal experience I don't feel the long tapers are necessary for all. I know many myself included who just cut down in half in a day. Recently I've gone fro 15mg of valium and lmg of xanax. To .75mg of valium & .25mg of xanax with no ill effects. Weren't working anyway so why take them? Phillipa

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 7:45:31

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » Bryn B, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2012, at 22:01:45

yes well because i get into serious withdrawal . thats why. I must be one of the few people that develope tolerance extremely fast. Ringing in ears, irritability, almost constant panic attacks, derealiston and depersonalisation. Just to name a few.

And yes itspossible to get addicted to these so fast, just in only few cases it gets like this.
I dont know either what should i do. Should i go to hospital environment to cold turkey them or should i try to wean myself to zero in about 2 months or something crazy long. What are you guys personal opinions? Everybodys input here is really appreciated. I dont know wtf i should do.
I am sure id kill myself cold turkeying this amount of drugs. Yes the wd itself would take only about 3 weeks to be done if id just stop then putting these toxins in my veins for another 2 months, and then my brain should somehow readjust etc?

What seems more beneficial? Ct or tryin to wean if there are most of these same problems. Would i face prolonged wd or something like that for going ct? i dunno, i just know this is not working in any case. 0 hours of sleep is what i seem to be getting, so how to get atleast some sleep and try this at home, i dunno.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan

Posted by Bryn B on June 27, 2012, at 8:24:17

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 7:45:31

I'm speaking from experience here, so I truly understand what you're going through. of all the drugs I've had to withdraw from (including opiates) benzos are the WORST/hardest.

I did rehab & hospital settings on 7 different occasions to detox from benzos (each stint lasted 7-12 days). None of these worked. I ended up finding a very understanding pdoc who worked w/ me and weaned me off over 5 months. I was on an extremely high amount of Valium, so my process took a very long time.

Luckily for you, you're on a low dose of klonopin, so your withdrawal won't be that long. In my opinion (and I am extremely well-versed when it comes to benzos!), you need to either speak to your current doc about working w/ you, or find one who understands and will do a long taper. They need to switch you to Valium (again, it is easier/more precise in terms of dosing) and slowly take you down from there. The whole process should be under 2 months, easily.

I used to take upwards of 200 mg of Valium a day (no, not a typo) or 8 mg of Klonopin. I had a serious problem w/ benzos & went through hell going off of them. I now only take them on as a needed basis for occasional panic attacks (maybe 3 times a month or less). I truly thought I would be stuck taking them everyday for the rest of my life. Now that I'm off of them, I rarely have anxiety (depression, unfortunately is another issue).

So, I'm a believer in a slow taper. Depending on your diagnosis, I think celexa or lexapro (just a low dose of a clean ssri) would be great. Also, there's a drug called Vistiral which is really just a prescription antihistamine that is decent as a prn for anxiety (it's non-addictive and nowhere close to a benzo, but it helps). Clonodine is also okay if it helps. keep it simple--no seroquel or AP; just the ssri, maybe Vistiral and/or clonodine, and a slow Valium taper. I'm happy to discuss more w/ you if you want to leave your email or get in touch (don't know how it works here!).

Hang in there--benzo wd is horrible, but if done right, it's doable. It's unfortunately not understood or dealt with very well in the medical community.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 16:07:17

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan, posted by Bryn B on June 27, 2012, at 8:24:17

I read the asth think ton manual aswell. Do you really think its safer with valium. Whats weird is i cannot sleep at all with klonopin. Eyes keep opening by themselves and so forth...
whats the other [measurement on te equivalent charts for valium] ?
Does it somehow store valium to your body , but not klonopin?

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 16:09:42

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 16:07:17

what dose of vistaril you were on? my doc said it can be taken up to 400mg here in finland... ;)
During the day or night?

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by Bryn B on June 27, 2012, at 16:18:04

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 27, 2012, at 16:09:42

I do think Valium is the safest; I'm not sure how each benzo rates exactly on the chart (as far as equivalency), but I know it's very easy to dose with because you can get super precise (like going down .5-1mg at a time). It also has a long half life, so you get less rebound anxiety.

I took 100 mg of Vistiral--sometimes 2 50 mg at a time, or just 50 mg twice a day. It doesn't matter when you take it, though it will probably make you sleepy. As far as not sleeping, I think that's par for the course with withdrawal. You might want to take something for sleep, but be careful as it's another med thrown into the mix.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 28, 2012, at 0:50:37

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by Bryn B on June 27, 2012, at 16:18:04

Did the valium make some difference to your sleep?, Im asking this did you sleep on the drug you had before valium?

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan

Posted by Bryn B on June 28, 2012, at 9:32:16

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 28, 2012, at 0:50:37

I found no difference between Valium & klonopin when it came to sleep--sleep was problematic from the withdrawal, regardless of what I was taking. Valium does work wonderfully as a muscle relaxer, so that aspect might help you w/ sleep.

although I don't necessarily think it's great to add other drugs into the mix whil detoxing, you could try a low dose of seroquel or trazadone at night to help you sleep.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 29, 2012, at 2:45:29

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan, posted by Bryn B on June 28, 2012, at 9:32:16

I kind of have 2 threads on the subject of me already, but anyways. I dont think seroquel is a safe drug at all. There has been some interesting findings that it also has some gaba binding.
Also you shouldnt use it in very low quantaties, below 100mg i believe,only when you start it you can. And if you discontinue , continue and discontinue the use then its can cause some damage to the receptors in your brain..........
Discontinuation is rather severe from seroquel , not for all but for some.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on June 29, 2012, at 2:51:30

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd. » thefan, posted by Bryn B on June 28, 2012, at 9:32:16

Forgot to say that my current mix is agomelatonin 25mg, 200mg hydroxyzine (atarax), remeron about 5mg-7.5mg, lyrica 750mg. And then i made a bit larger cut of 25% from 1mg of K. Will see how my brain adjusts, i know the cuts should be smaller then this,but i dont really know the tolerance i have. It was just an assumption that its somewhere in 1mg range so thats why i cut this much. Will take a week to see how i react to 25% cut. The k i had at home was gone old about 7 months or so ago, i think it was less potent or something,because the k i have been given here in hospital has had much more punch to it, or then my new meds atarax and agomelatonin are actually giving me atleast some kind of help, i dunno time will tell.

 

Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd.

Posted by thefan on July 5, 2012, at 14:23:02

In reply to Re: benzo inhibitors while in wd +questions ab wd., posted by thefan on June 29, 2012, at 2:51:30

Ok. Meds 300mg hydroxyzine, agomelatonin 25mg, lyrica still 750mg been on it for years ,remeron about 7,5mg to sleep. And thats about it.
Going to try to dry cut my klonopin to 0.625 tomorrow, lets see how it goes.
Already getting a bit sick to even thinking about it. was on 0.75 now for 7 days, and well, made trough it. Some worse moments some better.

I think if i make it to 0.5mg ill start titrating. Muscle cramps have been quite bad today, and the sweating, when it comes to my mind, actually i have not been that anxious.
Mornings seem to be the worst for me, maybe the adrenalin levels are higher in the mornings or something.

Im actually thinking about starting memantine (ive heard it lowers your tolerance to all kinds of things or keeps it in "bay". If i can just find a dr willing to describe it to me. Maybe some gaba-b affecting compounds for SHORT term a couple days use would be good too? Thinking about baclofen and phenibut in particular, but i dont know if they are going to be effective when it comes to anxiety? Any thoughts on this?


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