![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
I am so, so sick of this. I don't have the money, time, resources or willpower to go on the med rollercoaster again because it seems like Parnate hasn't had any effect ever but make me worse, regardless of dose.
I've been on every med CONSTANTLY for more than 10 years. It's time for my brain to take a break, it's hard to get the info since there are so many anti med sites out there but it seems plausible that my neurotransmitters have been basically burned out after all that time.
The only thing I haven't tried is a substantial period off of medications while working on natural and holistic methods. However, since I don't have any motivation or the ability to feel joy, hope etc, I need a temporary thing to rev me up while I dose down.
Basically the only meds in the treatment depression tier I haven't tried are amphetamine type stims (although the pseudo amphetamine "boost" never did anything for me) and opiates. I would not like to be on these things long time, obviously, but I need a way to trick my body into feeling emotions that I can't feel while I work on healing it in different ways and taper down slowly.
Would this be a reasonable approach to getting off meds in this situation? I am really angry and sick of doctors who treat me like a junkie when I ask for *Klonapin* which takes me months to go through. I've never abused any substance, even caffeine, and even Klonapin when my doctor told me to take it daily for sleep. I just didn't want to and I don't have that kind of personality.
How do you find a doctor who will prescribe this and not think you're a junkie? I feel like my only other option is tripping on some Ketamine I'd get off the street somewhere :P
Posted by Phil on June 15, 2012, at 18:54:00
In reply to going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
Are you saying that you want a new doctor to prescribe opiates and amphetamines? Good luck.
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2012, at 19:17:31
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » violetdream, posted by Phil on June 15, 2012, at 18:54:00
Don't feel it will happen. As those with pain also cannot get a prescription for opiods. Because they are the most abused meds. And too many deaths and additions from opiods. Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 15, 2012, at 20:43:00
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2012, at 19:17:31
I...wish you well. I have no tips for you. Docs these days either are Puritanical all the time, or reserve the good pills for themselves, their buddies, and cash-only clients.
I'd pursue the alternative route and try a PRN benzos. Even those are sometimes hard to come by.
Posted by violetdream on June 16, 2012, at 0:15:24
In reply to going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
I hate that since people abuse some classes of medicine, they are made unavailable to those who really need them.
I have treatment resistant depression. I'm at the end of the treatment list when it comes to types of medication, other than opiates and amphetamine derivatives.
I don't want to be on medication anymore, and I don't want to be put on something that's going to take months to (probably not) work and titrate it up painfully slowly. The point of taking these "dangerous" medications is to help myself get OFF of medications. I'd go off completely, but I don't have the willpower or correct emotions to be able to do things for myself right now.
The only short term, quick mood boosting medicines I can think of are in classes of medicines that are abused. I don't know any other way to give myself the boost I need to continue healing myself without medication, other than using illegal street drugs, which kind of defeats the point.
While it's an unusual request that unfortunately most doctors are not going to agree to, I hope that anyone with my history would see that it's not at all an unreasonable one.
I've seen people here even prescribed things like ketamine to take at home - there are some doctors out there who prescribe unusual things.
Are there *any* other medicines that are not classically used as antidepressants/anti-psychotics/etc etc that give you a short boost of mood with the idea of coming off of it? That are not "dangerous"?
Posted by bleauberry on June 16, 2012, at 6:00:01
In reply to going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
Before abandoning the antidepressant meds you should consider these unless you already have:
Savella
Savella + anything
Zoloft + Nortriptyline
Prozac + Nortriptyline
ClomipramineOk so moving on, for the meds you are looking at you'll just have to switch gears and start going to a doc who deals with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome. They are the ones who utilize opioids and stimulants, though they will likely be sure you have tried Cymbalta and/or Savella first. You could move to a State friendly with medical marijuana. That can work for some people when all meds do not.
On the natural side of things you will want to cover these bases....inflammation, toxicity, infection. In the herbal world of plant medicines there are a variety of plants that do these things with considerable potency. I happen to know a lot about many of them because I deal with chronic lyme stuff. It's just that in my journeys I have seen overlap between lyme stuff and what I see here at pbabble. That doesn't mean people here have lyme, it means I believe many of them have inflammation, toxicity, and/or infection issues as major players in the psych symptoms. Some of them do have lyme and don't know it.
In terms of herbs specifically for depression I think my #1 pick is rhodiola rosea. SJW can work miracles sometimes but I think it is generally overglorified about the same as prescriptions.
Something else to keep in mind is that maybe it is not a neurotransmitter deficiency thing, but rather a neurotransmitter excitability thing...a firing thing....low electrical activity. If that were true than your idea of stimulants could be helpful, I favor ritalin but others like adderall. Adrafinil and modafinil are definitely worth a look. TMS does the excitability thing.
One of my parachutes....to save me on a really bad day....is vicodan. I discovered that by accident following outpatient surgery. It can make me feel normal or close to normal for a few hours. And even helps the next day long after it has worn off, which I haven't figured out why that is, but ok. To get that you will have to be talking to a doctor about pain, not depression That's why I said, I think it will be easier to get the meds from a pain fatigue doctor than a mood doctor.
In the same vein must mention Tramadol. At patient rating forums this one does really well, better than the antidepressants, and most patients discovered it by accident when dealing with a pain issue. It is sort of SNRI/Opioid combo in one.
10 years is a long time. For me it is closer to 20. SLS I think even longer than that. My biggest gains and progress came not from psych meds, but from attacking the other issues I mentioned....inflammation, toxicity, infection. It's hard or impossible to diagnose any of those, so you just have to assume and treat accordingly. The treatment itself will in an experimental way tell you which areas are on target and which are not. With me, all three were/are huge issues. Remove or lessen those problems and the psych symptoms naturally improve, because those things are at the root of it all in the first place.....or even if they aren't at the root of it but rather results of something else, lessening those issues improves mood issues.
And if you want to go that route, the best way to learn more is to study up on herbal treatments of lyme disease, even if you do not suspect lyme-like issues, because that is the arena where there is a great deal of expertise on those issues.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on June 16, 2012, at 14:15:33
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by bleauberry on June 16, 2012, at 6:00:01
Your gonna have to find a doctor that specializes in either pain, or ADHD, those doctors are key prone to use the main medications that are used to treat these conditions. The least docs that will do this is public doctors, it usally has to go through a process sometimes months...or longer before they will consider the depressing benzo klono.
but still if you wait, and go through all these bull medications that don't work, like using trazadone for panic attacks...stupid stuff like that....you need to make wellknown to them that your having trouble with ADHD symptoms...but getting opiates....that's a tough one...you would have to work with doctor, and pretty much go through offlabel pain medications. But their are doctors that do prescibe unusal cocktails, I was working at a filing company and I was trping in medical records of people, and of course their medications and conditions and these people had mild pain and where prescibed over the top opiates......hydrocodone with morphine....and soma...which is meprobamate...yea it just depends...doctors I think sign some kinda of oath to use medical expertise and not misuse their intellect, and I think they abuse that contract and won't neccesily treat conditions that need attention.
anyways, try nuerontin or lyrica those should be easy to get...
rj
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 16, 2012, at 15:52:01
In reply to going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
> I am so, so sick of this. I don't have the money, time, resources or willpower to go on the med rollercoaster again because it seems like Parnate hasn't had any effect ever but make me worse, regardless of dose.
>
> I've been on every med CONSTANTLY for more than 10 years. It's time for my brain to take a break, it's hard to get the info since there are so many anti med sites out there but it seems plausible that my neurotransmitters have been basically burned out after all that time.
>
> The only thing I haven't tried is a substantial period off of medications while working on natural and holistic methods. However, since I don't have any motivation or the ability to feel joy, hope etc, I need a temporary thing to rev me up while I dose down.
>
> Basically the only meds in the treatment depression tier I haven't tried are amphetamine type stims (although the pseudo amphetamine "boost" never did anything for me) and opiates. I would not like to be on these things long time, obviously, but I need a way to trick my body into feeling emotions that I can't feel while I work on healing it in different ways and taper down slowly.
>
> Would this be a reasonable approach to getting off meds in this situation? I am really angry and sick of doctors who treat me like a junkie when I ask for *Klonapin* which takes me months to go through. I've never abused any substance, even caffeine, and even Klonapin when my doctor told me to take it daily for sleep. I just didn't want to and I don't have that kind of personality.
>
> How do you find a doctor who will prescribe this and not think you're a junkie? I feel like my only other option is tripping on some Ketamine I'd get off the street somewhere :Pvioletdream,
You wrote,[...so sick...med rollercoaster...Parnate..makes me worse...on meds constantly for..10 years...neurotransmitters..burned out...I don't have any motivation or the ability to feel joy, hope...I needa way to trick my body...I feel like my only other option...]
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 17, 2012, at 10:05:43
In reply to Lou's response-dhagrydheshep » violetdream, posted by Lou Pilder on June 16, 2012, at 15:52:01
> > I am so, so sick of this. I don't have the money, time, resources or willpower to go on the med rollercoaster again because it seems like Parnate hasn't had any effect ever but make me worse, regardless of dose.
> >
> > I've been on every med CONSTANTLY for more than 10 years. It's time for my brain to take a break, it's hard to get the info since there are so many anti med sites out there but it seems plausible that my neurotransmitters have been basically burned out after all that time.
> >
> > The only thing I haven't tried is a substantial period off of medications while working on natural and holistic methods. However, since I don't have any motivation or the ability to feel joy, hope etc, I need a temporary thing to rev me up while I dose down.
> >
> > Basically the only meds in the treatment depression tier I haven't tried are amphetamine type stims (although the pseudo amphetamine "boost" never did anything for me) and opiates. I would not like to be on these things long time, obviously, but I need a way to trick my body into feeling emotions that I can't feel while I work on healing it in different ways and taper down slowly.
> >
> > Would this be a reasonable approach to getting off meds in this situation? I am really angry and sick of doctors who treat me like a junkie when I ask for *Klonapin* which takes me months to go through. I've never abused any substance, even caffeine, and even Klonapin when my doctor told me to take it daily for sleep. I just didn't want to and I don't have that kind of personality.
> >
> > How do you find a doctor who will prescribe this and not think you're a junkie? I feel like my only other option is tripping on some Ketamine I'd get off the street somewhere :P
>
> violetdream,
> You wrote,[...so sick...med rollercoaster...Parnate..makes me worse...on meds constantly for..10 years...neurotransmitters..burned out...I don't have any motivation or the ability to feel joy, hope...I needa way to trick my body...I feel like my only other option...]violetdream,
Let us reason together. You would like to know if this is a resonable approach to your situation. If you take another drug for a short time, if it did trick your body, how long would the tricking last? And could not you become addicted to the drug that you think will trick your body? Then what?
Now if after that, would you try to find another drug to trick your body? Then could not that drug cause addiction and for how long could the tricking last? Could not this go on and on for the rest of your life? And during that time, could not death result from the drugs? Or a life-ruining condition?
But it is well-known that there could be great tribulation to the person that stops drugs after 10 years rollercoasting on them. The tribulation can be horrific where there are reports that people kill themselvess during the withdrawal from the drugs. And a mind-altered state could occur so horrible that homocidal thinking could envelop the mind. So what could {my only other option} be, as you write?
There is a way here that seems natural to a person here, as others post here about them being on drugs for many years. But what is the end result to them? And is that what you really want? You say you are without the feeling of joy and hope. Do you think that by continuing in taking mind-altering drugs that you will regain joy and hope? If after 10 years of drugs, is it reasonable to think that more years could make your humaness worse and lose even more of your human feelings? Could not then you become like a zombie? Is that what you want to happen to you?
There is another way. Now if you could go back and remember as a child having joy and hope and belonging,, and if you can not remember a time like that then you could skip the following, there is a way that brings you back to the life you used to know. Back to the green fields, back to the rivers that gave life to the trees, back to the blue skies with white clouds kissed by the sun. Back to your true self with feelings of joy. Back to the days of old, back to a life of hope and a pocketfull of dreams. Back to life that you once knew.
More drugs? More addiction? More unjoyous life? More unhopeful days? WOuld you not want to go back to the green fields? Back to where you once belonged?
Lou
Posted by novelagent on June 17, 2012, at 22:42:48
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 16, 2012, at 0:15:24
Well, considering long-term use of opiates doesn't work, even for pain patients... I find that stupid. Not to judge or anything, I just think you're being an idiot. (No offense). The klonopin and the stimulants, those are fine, but do yourself a favor, and get out of obsessing about opiates while you still can afford to not care about them.
It will only lead to addiction, no matter how strong your will power is, and it will have nothing to do with with whether you "abuse" them or take them as prescribed. Either way, you'll still wind up switching to heroin when you can't afford to buy extra pills off the street.
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2012, at 0:22:02
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by novelagent on June 17, 2012, at 22:42:48
> I find that stupid. Not to judge or anything, I just think you're being an idiot. (No offense).
I'm not sure that this verbiage is helpful.
For whatever reasons, some very educated people with depression report that buprenorphine is the only drug that relieves it. Others report tramadol as being effective, although its properties of NE/5-HT reuptake inhibition cannot be overlooked. However, many of these people had tried reuptake inhibitors previously without success.
Regarding nociception, memantine might extend the analgesic effects of opioids and mitigate the development of tolerance. This has been the conclusion of numerous studies. There is far less evidence of memantine extending the therapeutic effects of amphetamines. I never tried it.
- Scott
Posted by novelagent on June 19, 2012, at 0:51:56
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » novelagent, posted by SLS on June 18, 2012, at 0:22:02
memantine doesn't do anything for tolerance. Forums have posts about memantine "reverse tolerance" by people (not you) who misread the term "reverse tolerance" to mean "reverses toleramce" and that's where you're getting that from. If you ask me, it's mostly written by people who take excessive amounts of amphetamines-- enough to cause tolerance- and their IQ is impaired... they also (not you) get obsessive on those forums about it, since they're hyperfocused.
Heroin is what happens when one can't afford to buy pills off the street anymore, so I'd be careful about encouraging anyone to enter down an opiate path. It happens. I am troubled by just how casual opiates are talked about here.
Opiates do not work long-term for any condition, including pain, and the risk of becoming addicted by taking it simply as prescribed and then not even have it work anymore... it's un-wise. And stupid, if you forgive me for making a point.
> > I find that stupid. Not to judge or anything, I just think you're being an idiot. (No offense).
>
> I'm not sure that this verbiage is helpful.
>
> For whatever reasons, some very educated people with depression report that buprenorphine is the only drug that relieves it. Others report tramadol as being effective, although its properties of NE/5-HT reuptake inhibition cannot be overlooked. However, many of these people had tried reuptake inhibitors previously without success.
>
> Regarding nociception, memantine might extend the analgesic effects of opioids and mitigate the development of tolerance. This has been the conclusion of numerous studies. There is far less evidence of memantine extending the therapeutic effects of amphetamines. I never tried it.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on June 19, 2012, at 9:23:36
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » SLS, posted by novelagent on June 19, 2012, at 0:51:56
> Heroin is what happens when one can't afford to buy pills off the street anymore,
Buprenorphine can be be prescribed by any physician in the US for usages other than opioid addiction. To treat opioid addiction, a special registration is necessary. There is no need to go to the street for buprenorphine.
> so I'd be careful about encouraging anyone to enter down an opiate path.
I haven't. I just stated that some people report that buprenorphine is the only drug that relieved their depression. I'm sure you are familiar with the often-cited study conducted by J. Bodkin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7714228
At what point do you determine that buprenorphine treatment is the only remaining alternative? I don't know.
> Opiates do not work long-term for any condition, including pain,
Okay. Then, what would you use in their place?
> and the risk of becoming addicted by taking it simply as prescribed and then not even have it work anymore... it's un-wise. And stupid, if you forgive me for making a point.
Again, I don't know if that verbiage is terribly helpful. I doubt that all doctors who use opioids as a medical tool are stupid. They must certainly be aware of the shortcomings of currently available opioids because they witness them every day.
Perhaps your definition of the word "stupid" is different from its common usage.
Another thing interesting about memantine is that it helps to prevent relapse of opioid addiction.
- Scott
> > > I find that stupid. Not to judge or anything, I just think you're being an idiot. (No offense).> > I'm not sure that this verbiage is helpful.
> >
> > For whatever reasons, some very educated people with depression report that buprenorphine is the only drug that relieves it. Others report tramadol as being effective, although its properties of NE/5-HT reuptake inhibition cannot be overlooked. However, many of these people had tried reuptake inhibitors previously without success.
> >
> > Regarding nociception, memantine might extend the analgesic effects of opioids and mitigate the development of tolerance. This has been the conclusion of numerous studies. There is far less evidence of memantine extending the therapeutic effects of amphetamines. I never tried it.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
Posted by phidippus on June 19, 2012, at 17:59:53
In reply to going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by violetdream on June 15, 2012, at 16:40:35
I found a lovely solution for depression called Buprenorphine. It is a opioid antagonist/agonist and is presscribed for opiate addiction. You can't get addicted to it.
Stimulants don't really do it for me.
Eric
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 19, 2012, at 20:37:49
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » violetdream, posted by phidippus on June 19, 2012, at 17:59:53
> I found a lovely solution for depression called Buprenorphine. It is a opioid antagonist/agonist and is presscribed for opiate addiction. You can't get addicted to it.
>
> Stimulants don't really do it for me.
>
> EricEric,
You wrote,[...You can't get addicted to it (Buprenorphine)...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.By what authority do you use ,if any, to substantiate the claim here that {you can't get addicted to it (Buprenorphin)}?
B. Are you aware of the history of the development by chemists of [semi-synthetic opioids?
C. Have you read here wher I started to explain the historical development of such but was prevented from contimuing as Mr. Hsiung posted a prohibition to me that prevents me from posting historical facts that could educate readers concerning the history of the development of these type of drugs?
D. Do you know what {thebaine} is?
E. If so,do you know where it is found?
F. If there are reports of people getting addicted to Bup ren orphin, what do you say about those reports in relation to your claim that Buprenorphine is a drug that one can't get addicted to?
Lou
Posted by psychobot5000 on June 20, 2012, at 17:16:37
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims?, posted by novelagent on June 17, 2012, at 22:42:48
> Well, considering long-term use of opiates doesn't work, even for pain patients... I find that stupid. Not to judge or anything, I just think you're being an idiot. (No offense). The klonopin and the stimulants, those are fine, but do yourself a favor, and get out of obsessing about opiates while you still can afford to not care about them.
>
> It will only lead to addiction, no matter how strong your will power is, and it will have nothing to do with with whether you "abuse" them or take them as prescribed. Either way, you'll still wind up switching to heroin when you can't afford to buy extra pills off the street.For what it's worth, I find most of the statements here to be either gross exaggerations or....not accurate in all circumstances.
So far as I am aware, most doctors and researchers believe that opioids are not addictive if one does not escalate the dose to chase the initial high (i.e. 'chase the dragon').
Addiction is not a foregone conclusion, and while clearly it can ruin lives, it seems to this patient, having been on several classes of addictive medication, that much of it probably depends on your personal biochemistry, and that well-meaning folks often make overbroad statements about the dangers of dependency/addiction.
All that said, I do not particularly recommend looking for opioids as a treatment for depression or bipolar. it's incredibly unlikely one will find a doctor willing to engage in such treatment, and, if successful, any positive effects may disappear in time. That said, there appears to be substantial anecdotal evidence that buprenorphine it may be effective for an extended period, and it is also less addictive than other opioids--which is not to say that there is no risk at all.
For what it's worth, I was trialled on buprenorephine, and did not find it a pleasant medication. Others clearly have different experiences, however.
Stimulants probably have a better track record of providing sustained benefit for mood, as an adjunct to normal antidepressants. The risks of tolerance and addiction may also be less than with opiates.
At the risk of repeating myself, it is not 'stupid' to look into opioids, but, with the possible exception of buprenorphine, I think most patients are probably better off looking elsewhere: low doses of that one atypical antipsychotic you haven't tried, ketamine and other NMDA agents, TMS, ECT, stimulants.
Posted by sigismund on June 20, 2012, at 18:15:46
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » novelagent, posted by psychobot5000 on June 20, 2012, at 17:16:37
Opiates and benzos are equally addictive (old definition).
Opiates are more liable to the temptation of dose escalation.
Benzos are not easier to give up than opiates for me.My opinion.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 21, 2012, at 0:40:42
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » SLS, posted by novelagent on June 19, 2012, at 0:51:56
> memantine doesn't do anything for tolerance. >Forums have posts about memantine "reverse >tolerance" by people (not you) who misread the >term "reverse tolerance" to mean "reverses >toleramce" and that's where you're getting that >from. If you ask me, it's mostly written by >people who take excessive amounts of >amphetamines-- enough to cause tolerance- and >their IQ is impaired... they also (not you) get >obsessive on those forums about it, since >they're hyperfocused.
>There's more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it does. If you look up the gigantic Memantine thread on addforums, you'll find a poster called surferdude who's been on the combination for more than two years. He's also either currently in med school, or a graduate (I forget the exact details) and is interning at a hospital, so I doubt his IQ is impaired.
Posted by novelagent on June 21, 2012, at 14:24:58
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » novelagent, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 21, 2012, at 0:40:42
Having been on memantine and amphetamine myself, I know it does make the amphetamine more effective, but it does not do so by "affecting tolerance." I never have developed any tolerance fo amphetamine. I think they are conflating tolerance with potentiation,
I've also been on aricept and amphetamine, which also potentiates each other. I couldn't take more than 5mg of aricept, even though 5mg is only suppose to be used as a starting dose before going to 10mg. So it's just potentiation, not "tolerance" being affected.
Tolerance is rare on amphetamine at therapeutic doses-- but on the Internet, people think it's "tolerance" when the same dose doesn't make one feel super awesome while doing boring tasks like day one. That's not tolerance-- that's an issue with unrealistic expctations for a drug.
> > memantine doesn't do anything for tolerance. >Forums have posts about memantine "reverse >tolerance" by people (not you) who misread the >term "reverse tolerance" to mean "reverses >toleramce" and that's where you're getting that >from. If you ask me, it's mostly written by >people who take excessive amounts of >amphetamines-- enough to cause tolerance- and >their IQ is impaired... they also (not you) get >obsessive on those forums about it, since >they're hyperfocused.
> >
>
> There's more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it does. If you look up the gigantic Memantine thread on addforums, you'll find a poster called surferdude who's been on the combination for more than two years. He's also either currently in med school, or a graduate (I forget the exact details) and is interning at a hospital, so I doubt his IQ is impaired.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 22, 2012, at 6:29:22
In reply to Re: going off meds - finding doc for opiods or stims? » g_g_g_unit, posted by novelagent on June 21, 2012, at 14:24:58
Yeah, in certain cases, Memantine has been used when *genuine* tolerance has developed to the cognitive effects of amphetamine, or excessively high doses are required to maintain an effect.
The majority of users seek to preserve the anti-anhedonic, motivational, pro-social effects of amphetamine. I don't see what's ethically wrong with this, and I'm sure it could be useful for certain kinds of reward-deficient depressive states. As someone who used to work in a creative field, I find that increase in emotional tone derived from the first few days of amphetamine use far more useful than the subsequent effect, where I'm able to focus but just have no enthusiasm for anything creative (whether doing or experiencing). It forces my interests to shift to experiences that lack emotional engagement - non-fiction, documentaries, etc.
You yourself were contemplating inducing a "healthy hypomania" with Aricept, so I don't see how that would be any different to the Memantine + Stim combination.
> Having been on memantine and amphetamine myself, I know it does make the amphetamine more effective, but it does not do so by "affecting tolerance." I never have developed any tolerance fo amphetamine. I think they are conflating tolerance with potentiation,
>
> I've also been on aricept and amphetamine, which also potentiates each other. I couldn't take more than 5mg of aricept, even though 5mg is only suppose to be used as a starting dose before going to 10mg. So it's just potentiation, not "tolerance" being affected.
>
> Tolerance is rare on amphetamine at therapeutic doses-- but on the Internet, people think it's "tolerance" when the same dose doesn't make one feel super awesome while doing boring tasks like day one. That's not tolerance-- that's an issue with unrealistic expctations for a drug.
>
>
>
> > > memantine doesn't do anything for tolerance. >Forums have posts about memantine "reverse >tolerance" by people (not you) who misread the >term "reverse tolerance" to mean "reverses >toleramce" and that's where you're getting that >from. If you ask me, it's mostly written by >people who take excessive amounts of >amphetamines-- enough to cause tolerance- and >their IQ is impaired... they also (not you) get >obsessive on those forums about it, since >they're hyperfocused.
> > >
> >
> > There's more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it does. If you look up the gigantic Memantine thread on addforums, you'll find a poster called surferdude who's been on the combination for more than two years. He's also either currently in med school, or a graduate (I forget the exact details) and is interning at a hospital, so I doubt his IQ is impaired.
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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