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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
well i did it yesterday. i took around 180mgs of ketamine. i can definitely see how it could take someone out of a serious episode of depression. it just makes you able to step put of the situation you are in and to analyze things a bit differently. and i felt VERY disconnected. it didn't do what i was hoping for, though. once it wore off after a few hours, i was back to my normal dysfunctional self.
now im at a loss as to what my next step could be. i contacted the NIMH clinical trial about anything they could do to help and they said that since i had been in a coma they cant enroll me in any of their studies. they said the coma could have changed my brain too much to be able to use in a study. and i'm not planning on trying ECT. i just dont know right now.
Posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2012, at 15:58:44
In reply to K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
Poser what was the coma a result of? Were you depressed before the coma or did it occurr as a result of what happened. How long ago did it occurr? Do you see a neurologist? Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 16:30:04
In reply to Re: K-Hole » poser938, posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2012, at 15:58:44
the coma was caused by encephalitis. and the encephalitis was caused by a cat scratch. i'm not sure, but i dont think it was the encephalitis that caused my mood problems. i'm pretty sure it was just normal teen mood problems that i had before trying meds. i have had a PET scan done recently and they saw no problems on it.
Posted by bleauberry on May 3, 2012, at 17:25:40
In reply to K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
What about TMS? I'm not real knowledgable on it but what I have seen looks inviting.
Might have to revisit the psych med history and try to see what was missed. And if not already studying herbs and trying them I think it's a good idea to do so.
You are strong hang in there.
> well i did it yesterday. i took around 180mgs of ketamine. i can definitely see how it could take someone out of a serious episode of depression. it just makes you able to step put of the situation you are in and to analyze things a bit differently. and i felt VERY disconnected. it didn't do what i was hoping for, though. once it wore off after a few hours, i was back to my normal dysfunctional self.
>
> now im at a loss as to what my next step could be. i contacted the NIMH clinical trial about anything they could do to help and they said that since i had been in a coma they cant enroll me in any of their studies. they said the coma could have changed my brain too much to be able to use in a study. and i'm not planning on trying ECT. i just dont know right now.
Posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 17:45:05
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by bleauberry on May 3, 2012, at 17:25:40
i did TMS in february and it did nothing for me. i would have gotten the same benefit from someone poking me in the head with their finger for 45 minutes.
i'm in this situation because of psych meds. my brain is very different and i dont think it was ever meant to be messed with by meds. when a medication has its effect on my brain, 9 times out of 10, it does not go away after stopping the med. my brain doesnt see the need to revert back to normal.
there are a few specific problems i have had from medication, and i think i have a pretty good idea what happened. one of the biggest problems i've had was from Mirapex. for a few weeks while i was taking it it did nothing for my mood, but it did increase my sensitivity to sexual stimulation. after after a few weeks though.. my emotional response to pleasurable things was drastically reduced. i stopped taking it and tried Tianeptine and after 2 weeks on it, my pleasure response was made even worse. the i moved on to ritalin and after 1 dose i was made even worse. then i got the idea to try cyprohaptadine.. and i believe through its 5ht2c antagonism it helped me. when that receptor is blocked off, your brains natural response to pleasurable things is increased and your brain releases more dopamine in a much more natural way than when it is forced to by meds like ritalin. and mirapex just acts like dopamine, causing too much stimulation.i also tried counteracting the effect mirapex had on me with Risperdal and then Seroquel, i took the risperdal forabout a month and a half and it did nothing for me. i couldnt feel any effects of it. it was like a sugar pill. i also tried Amisulpride too. i have tried a few herbs and natural thing, but havent gotten any benefit from any of them. and i talked to a pharmacist last wednsday and he is extremely knowledgeable on how herbs and thnigs work.. he said he was going to call me by friday to tell me if he found anything. now frday has passed and he hasnt called...
i will call him tomorrow to check up on it, though.
Posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 19:03:09
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 17:45:05
i just dont think there is a medication that is going to help my problem anymore.
Posted by SLS on May 3, 2012, at 20:00:31
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 19:03:09
> i just dont think there is a medication that is going to help my problem anymore.
I have been there a few times. I was always wrong.
- Scott
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 13:22:32
In reply to K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
I found at the very least a wonderful break from depression and a source of, dare I say it, spiritual hope. I noticed no pronounced side effects. I could definitely see how it could help a person recover from a depression, based on its psychological opening alone. It is very gentle and K-Holes (An overdose?) although amazingly strange are not painful or terrifying since the drug itself "protects you".
This is one person's experience. All I can say generally is learn (from a K discussion group) to do K properly before you use it. Insufflation might be great for raves but I can't see it being therapeutic. I believe that IM administration is necessary to relize the substance's true potential.
Methoxetamine is very similar to K and it is currently legal. It is classed as a "research chemical", and that is how one finds it.
Posted by Novelagent on May 9, 2012, at 14:09:35
In reply to K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
Depression is caused by irrational thought processes, ultimately, as you know... And it's incredibly irrational to expect a revelation to come from any drug. If ketamine works, it does so over numerous weeks of feeling better--Giving enough time for your brain to heal, and for healthier, adaptive thought processes to gradually replace unhealthy, maladaptive ones. And then there's the regimen of behaviors you are assigned to engage in in CBT as homework.
Who told you this is an overnight cure? Did someone really setup such an unrealistic expectation????
> well i did it yesterday. i took around 180mgs of ketamine. i can definitely see how it could take someone out of a serious episode of depression. it just makes you able to step put of the situation you are in and to analyze things a bit differently. and i felt VERY disconnected. it didn't do what i was hoping for, though. once it wore off after a few hours, i was back to my normal dysfunctional self.
>
> now im at a loss as to what my next step could be. i contacted the NIMH clinical trial about anything they could do to help and they said that since i had been in a coma they cant enroll me in any of their studies. they said the coma could have changed my brain too much to be able to use in a study. and i'm not planning on trying ECT. i just dont know right now.
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 14:27:35
In reply to Re: K-Hole » poser938, posted by Novelagent on May 9, 2012, at 14:09:35
"And it's incredibly irrational to expect a revelation to come from any drug"
This statement is hilarious on so many levels. I have experienced a few drugs that did exactly this, do you speak from experience?
All you are doing is repeating the dogma of psychopharmacology 10 years ago. It was a very incomplete hypothesis then and it has been greatly developed and changed now.
Yes depression is brain damage and yes the brain must heal via neurogenesis but there is no reason not to expect that drugs (both future and present)can act in two ways, both immediately and in the long term.
The worst thing you can do on this board is to discourage people from trying something. You can only speak from your personal experience and give advice. Sticking to this formula instead of crushing hope with speculation and bad science is a much more empathic and productive way to post here.
Posted by JohnLA on May 9, 2012, at 21:06:08
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 19:03:09
poser-
going in to the 'k-hole' is not what you want to do in treating your condition. i can appreciate your frustration.
i am waiting patiently to try ketamine for my depression.
i have 2 options; iv or sublingually.
the iv route is expensive. $1250 at ucla here in los angeles.
a much cheaper route is here;
she has been prescribing ketamine both nasally and sub-lingually for a few years now. i turned one babbler on to her and he has had good results with her dosage.
maybe your doc does not have the experience that this doc has and can contact her about dosages/etc? it seems you are on your own a bit regarding how much ketamine you should be using.
as i mentioned in another post, i'll keep everyone informed regarding my experience once i get going on the ketamine.
hang-in there.
john
Posted by JohnLA on May 9, 2012, at 21:10:11
In reply to K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 15:11:28
poser-
one more thing;
ketamine can take a while to start working. a few days if done by iv. not sure the amount of time for sub-lingual or nasally.
john
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 22:55:01
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by JohnLA on May 9, 2012, at 21:10:11
poser, what do you mean by a few days to start working? It is so "powerful" it "works" right away.
Are you referring to "working" in a different way than I understand...please elaborate!Thanks,
Eric
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 22:58:02
In reply to Re: K-Hole » poser938, posted by SLS on May 3, 2012, at 20:00:31
Are you interested in trying Ketamine?
I know you have been through hell, as have I.
Eric
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 23:04:41
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by poser938 on May 3, 2012, at 17:45:05
As far as anecdotal reports go, people are more enthusiastic about the now "legal form" of K called Methoxetamine. It is available as a "Research Chemical"
IM K is the only way to go in my opinion. IV is the most robust "as it happens" effect but it lacks the "Psychedelic" effects that I believe most would both enjoy and possibly be healed by.It is an amazingly interesting drug. Check out Dr.John Lilly on YouTube to really hear a man elaborate on this important point.
Eric
Posted by SLS on May 10, 2012, at 4:52:51
In reply to To Scott ...SLS » SLS, posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 22:58:02
> Are you interested in trying Ketamine?
>
> I know you have been through hell, as have I.
>
> EricI am pretty sure that ketamine administered i.v. would help me a great deal. It is my hope that ketamine therapy would reset synaptic dynamics and restore brain circuitry in such a way so as to allow antidepressant treatment to produce a higher-quality and more persistent response. At this juncture, I think it would be a mistake to establish a treatment protocol that discontinues psychotropic medications and attempts to use ketamine therapy exclusively. Without pharmacotherapy support, one might have to go for maintenance treatments every two to four weeks in a manner similar to ECT.
Ketamine represents an exciting discovery that will lead to a new avenue of research into the phenomenology and treatment of affective disorders.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 10, 2012, at 5:13:00
In reply to Re: K-Hole, posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 23:04:41
I have a sense that the episodic acute administration (I.V.) of ketamine is more effective than the less acute (I.M.) or chronic (daily) application.
It may be that key neural circuits in the brain must be exposed to paroxysmal administrations of ketamine in order to "shock" the system into functioning more normally. Hopefully, the frequency of treatments can be reduced over time as healthy brain function becomes more persistent. This persistence might be enhanced by administering supportive psychotropics medication. Some people might need this in order to achieve remission.
- Scott
Posted by Novelagent on May 15, 2012, at 0:09:59
In reply to To Novelagent and others » Novelagent, posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 14:27:35
First, I genuinely appreciate your perspective. Please realize my objective was actually to get the person I was speaking to to actually not lose hope, and stick with their meds for the long haul. Can you see how that's the opposite of "hope crushing"? : )
Second, it's ketamine, but it isn't LSD-- yes, someone can get a revelation from LSD, but actually, I do speak from experience, from pharmaceutical GHB-- the most similar drug out there to ketamine-- so I know what GHB does, and it doesn't cause a revelation.
I hope this helps. Sorry, I was away from the board for a few days, or else I would have responded sooner. Take care! Novel
> "And it's incredibly irrational to expect a revelation to come from any drug"
>
> This statement is hilarious on so many levels. I have experienced a few drugs that did exactly this, do you speak from experience?
>
> All you are doing is repeating the dogma of psychopharmacology 10 years ago. It was a very incomplete hypothesis then and it has been greatly developed and changed now.
>
> Yes depression is brain damage and yes the brain must heal via neurogenesis but there is no reason not to expect that drugs (both future and present)can act in two ways, both immediately and in the long term.
>
> The worst thing you can do on this board is to discourage people from trying something. You can only speak from your personal experience and give advice. Sticking to this formula instead of crushing hope with speculation and bad science is a much more empathic and productive way to post here.
Posted by Shonn Frank on May 19, 2012, at 13:55:10
In reply to To Novelagent and others » Novelagent, posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 9, 2012, at 14:27:35
Hey poser,
Sounds like you were dealt a bad hand with that cat scratch. Sorry. I know t'll just sound cliche for me to say that life hands you situations for the sole purpose of growing from them.. but I swear it's true.
I understand your mind state, being in a depression. I was there only a couple years ago. First of all, ever since I hit my early twenties life just became undoable to me. Money, relationships, my future, expectations, security.....It was too much for me to juggle and I was a mess. Then about 7 years ago, things really started "falling apart" in my life, almost systematically it seemed. I'll spare you the stories; I know we all have them, but my point is that I was f---ked up. I hated my life, hated waking up.
I tried every drug imaginable, legal and illegal. As far as legal, the only thing that was halfway effective was lexipro, and getting high on street drugs was fine for a minute, until the dopamin was all dried up, then it was worse. Very much like you describe your K experience. It sucks, but because those few hours of "pleasure" are the closest thing to happiness we get to have, my life was always about getting hold of some. (Btw, you could do this without ever appearing to be your stereotypical "junkie" but the instability it causes is just toxic and you deteriorate on the inside.)Anyway, today I am happy and have been for almost two years...not happy meaning "getting by" or "not AS bad" no completely and thoroughly happy...and this is after basically being rendered homeless and penniless. (It really is a wild story lol) This is because seven years ago, I opened up a book, it was written by Guy Finley, but he is only one of a number of authors that are labeled "new age," and they are only regurgitating what spiritual masters have since the beginning.... yet still, being indoctrinated into the Catholic church, I had never even thought in such a way. I was instantly moved and I ended up reading tons and tons of books and also practicing (or trying) meditation and other mindfulness exercises that I had read about.
All during those dark times, I tried to combat the negative states with readings or audio talks from these teachers. It didn't always work, as you know your mind can be almost impossible to contain at times...but the key is to keep trying and most important, remaining aware of your thoughts.
So, while I was sinking further and further, I was also growing in knowledge and understanding and at the climax, when all was lost, it was nothing short of a miracle. I went to bed tearing and woke up new...and I never looked back. All of the cliches you hear are true.
I have a close friend going through a similar depression (it seems to be popular these days), and my heart breaks because I feel like I know why and what will help, but I don't know how to make him believe me. Same here. lol But I swear to you, it is the answer. Good Luck anyway, my friend. I do feel your pain.
Hre is a quick link I just googled with some names and you could take it from there. Just start reading. (It can't hurt, right?)
http://www.beliefnet.com/Wellness/2003/05/Spiritual-Masters-Modern-Teachers-Guides-And-Gurus.aspx
Posted by Shonn Frank on May 19, 2012, at 13:59:14
In reply to Re: To Novelagent and others, posted by Shonn Frank on May 19, 2012, at 13:55:10
(sorry, didnt revise the subject before)
Yes, btw..I admit that I don't know EVERYTHING about the use of Ketamine to treat depression, but from what I do know about it makes me think of that as being pretty outrageous. I'm not an MD but I am almost positive that's not beneficial....certainly not long term.
Posted by EEERRRIIICCC on May 19, 2012, at 22:07:36
In reply to Re: To Novelagent and others, posted by Shonn Frank on May 19, 2012, at 13:55:10
Thanks, that was genuinely insightful and hopeful. Strangely I've just started looking into that world (live or die right...the hardest advice ever given)
and I am becoming hopeful. Most psychology based "depression books" are caricatures of trumped up po-dunk wisdom. They are sad at best. But "Undoing Depression" seems unusually promising (Perhaps in the league of The Noonday Demon, or Styron's work even) it is about a psychologist who documented his own slow recovery using meditation and mindfulness his terrifying, hopeful words are "Depression is measurable brain damage but for some amazing reason it is Brain Damage that can heal"
This is the end of the thread.
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