Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1016380

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Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 18:28:53

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 15:52:25

> There is obviously one here who goes by the adage, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t". The read-and-regurgitate crowd are among the most clueless around.

The gentleman doth project too much, me thinks.

Clueless.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:06:58

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 18:28:53

The gentleman doth wonderith about the dangers of giving and taking medication advice to/from strangers, however well-spoken, on the Internet. He is astounded by such cavalier arrogance about the dangers of such a practice, or the naivete to follow such dubious advice.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953

Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 19:20:54

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:06:58

> The gentleman doth wonderith about the dangers of giving and taking medication advice to/from strangers, however well-spoken, on the Internet. He is astounded by such cavalier arrogance about the dangers of such a practice, or the naivete to follow such dubious advice.

Words. I notice that you are particularly fixated on the word "arrogance". Why does my existence bother you so? Surely, I am not the only one on this board behaving the way you portray me as behaving.

You still wish that you were me. It is so obvious. Either I am your hero, or you are your own worst enemy. For you, there is nothing in between.

How is that for getting personal?

It is no act of brilliance to be different for the sake of being different. Perhaps it is a way to fulfill one's desperate need to feel significant in the world.

The truth shall set you free.

Give me a break.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:54:15

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 19:20:54

How very revealing

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953

Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 20:00:34

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:54:15

> How very revealing

Now, you're talking.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by sigismund on April 29, 2012, at 20:04:54

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:45:32

> How would you apply this principle to cancer chemotherapy?

Avoid it if it is not likely to be useful.

This is why many doctors are content to die without heroic measures being practised on them.

It could be a bit hard. You would need to accept the reality that you are dying.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » sigismund

Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 20:08:29

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by sigismund on April 29, 2012, at 20:04:54

> > How would you apply this principle to cancer chemotherapy?

> Avoid it if it is not likely to be useful.

Someone close to me made that decision. She died peacefully.

> It could be a bit hard. You would need to accept the reality that you are dying.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 5:22:24

In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47

This article enforces my own view and experience.

AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.

You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 5:22:24

> This article enforces my own view and experience.
>
> AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
>
> You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.

Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.

We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.

Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".

Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.

Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.

Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.

Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.

Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott

I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.

Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.

There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.

I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.

Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:53

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott

I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.

Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.

There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.

I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.

Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37

I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25

> I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.

Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

> > I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.
>
> Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.
>
>
> - Scott

Okay

I think Acupuncture in itself would be too weak for clinical chronic depression. It can probably induce relaxation and release emotional tension pent up in the body though.

-Alex

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06

China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

And why do you think that is?

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 12:34:05

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.

Top 10 suicide pr. 100.000 capita countries

Rank Country Male Female Total Year
1 Lithuania 61.3 10.4 34.1 2009
2 South Korea[3] (more info) 41.4 21.0 31.2 2010
3 Guyana 39.0 13.4 26.4 2006
4 Kazakhstan 43.0 9.4 25.6 2008
5 Belarus[4][5] 25.3 2010
6 Hungary[6] 40.0 10.6 24.6 2009
7 Japan (more info)[7] 33.5 14.6 23.8 2011
8 Latvia 40.0 8.2 22.9 2009
9 People's Republic of China [8]
(more info) 22.23 2010
10 Slovenia 34.6 9.4 21.9 2009

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 12:37:24

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

I don't know but I bet you're going to tell me.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark

Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11

I had old info. My mistake,

In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West

But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 13:44:16

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

> I had old info. My mistake,
>
> In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
>
> But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

No, I was asking you why you think that it is so. My thoughts on it would be that China has a totalirian regime with a capitalistic economy. You have no freedom, no one gives a rats *ss about you. Widespread poverty and add to that a rigid materialistic culture that also emphasis pride and family honour above all else. Not to mention a ban on all religious practice.

Why do you think rich developed countries like Denmark and Norway have a much higher suicide rate than contries like Columbia and Egypt? And why does South Korea and Japan have a much much higher suicide rate than say Thailand?

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 15:02:15

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10

> I had old info. My mistake,
>
> In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
>
> But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.

Iran has a much lower suicide rate than the US. I suppose that means that the best treatment of psychiatric disorders for men is being whipped and for women being stoned.

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2012, at 20:11:37

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12

Scott am I reading correctly. You have a sister that has mild depression and you would prefer she take ST Johns Wort? So in reality you don't find meds that safe? Or what would be a reason for her not taking medications? Also what's your definition of mild depression and anxiety. I'm seriously interested. Thanks Phillipa

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » Phillipa

Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:16:08

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2012, at 20:11:37

> Scott am I reading correctly.

I don't know.

> You have a sister that has mild depression and you would prefer she take ST Johns Wort?

She tried SJW once on her own. She reported that it helped. I prefer that she not take a powerful reuptake inhibitor if she can do without it. This is a personal decision that she has made for herself. If her condition were to deteriorate and affect her ability to function, I would certainly lobby her to see a doctor for treatment. My sister functions quite well without medication at the moment. Nardil was a godsend for her when she needed it.

> So in reality you don't find meds that safe?

In reality, I never said that. What do you mean by "safe"? Side effects are an issue, not death.

I believe that reuptake inhibitors can leave footprints on the terrain of the brain. Antidepressant-induced antidepressant refractoriness is an example of this. In other words, one often finds that they respond well to Paxil the first time they take it, and less well upon subsequent administrations. Paxil thus has produced persistent changes in the terrain of the brain. That's my belief, anyway.

> Or what would be a reason for her not taking medications?

Her reasons are to remain private. Sorry, Jan. I should not have mentioned her. That was pretty stupid of me.

> Also what's your definition of mild depression and anxiety.

I defer to the definitions used by members of the psychiatric profession. I am not sure exactly where to draw lines, if that's what you mean.

Depression and anxiety rating scales can provide an indication of severity, should you feel the need to rate yourself. I think the rating scales currently in use are too primitive, but they seem to be of some utility. Better ones are needed. Hamilton, Beck, Burns, Montgomery Åsberg, Zung, etc. I think they all suck. The HAM-D is probably the scale most often used. I bet improvements in rating systems would result in a reduction in the placebo response rate in clinical trials. It is ridiculous that these 50-year old measurement instruments still exist.

Antidepressants are not ideal treatments for depression or anxiety disorders. Are they universally safe? No.

Tylenol kills. What shall we do about this? I guess it is a matter of perspective and taking care in evaluating the rate of occurrence of these adverse events. Weighing the risk versus benefit of using antidepressants and antipsychotics have led me to decide to take them. Unfortunately, I feel that I have no better choice. The severity of my illness requires that it be treated. So far, the myriad drugs that I have taken over the last 30 years have not killed me. They haven't even left me with any obvious irreversible effects other than the possible induction of greater treatment resistance.


- Scott

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper

Posted by sigismund on April 30, 2012, at 23:17:17

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25

> Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.

Take this with a grain of salt but I think they have this idea of the brain being a 'strange organ' (which is kind of funny) and don't have a mind/body distinction, and view it all as subsections of their existing categories so to speak. The good ones are very good but there is a lot of variation because it cannot be standardised in the same way. Perhaps for that reason it can be better. I don't live near these people but would see them otherwise

http://www.tcmaustralia.com.au/

 

Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2012, at 12:27:22

In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » Phillipa, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:16:08

Scott thanks that's fair. No problem mentioning her. I do it all the time with other neighbors or friends or family. I did google ST Johns Wort and found that a bit contradictory also. High functioning or "normal" function is what in your definition? See docs have really been no help to me. And at this point not sure if it's just me and expecting too much of life or something I can help or maybe remit? Cure wouldn't be the right word. Thanks sometimes I do wish you would have your babblemail on as somethings as above is meant more for private. Just my opinion. Phillipa


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