Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 1016024

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

http://breggin.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=27&Itemid=37

Why isn't there an official diagnosis like this?

It would save people from being diagnosed with some mental illness and then being given even more of the drugs that are causing it? Most psychiatrists are not interested in this and of course Big Pharm just keeps pushing yet more drugs to "treat" the symptoms of the drugs you're all ready on. And the shrinks helpfully provide more diagnoses and emerging syndromes to justify more drugging.

This article points out that the effects of CBI is really no different whether it is coming from a concussion, street drugs, traumatic brain injury from combat etc.

He discusses treatment and the possibility of recovery which is somewhat hopeful.I remember last century mentioning Breggin on babble led to scorn and dismissal but he has been shown to be right more and more as time goes by.

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke

Posted by phidippus on April 20, 2012, at 18:11:22

In reply to Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

Drugs are good. Lithium is just a salt.

Eric

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » phidippus

Posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 18:53:31

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke, posted by phidippus on April 20, 2012, at 18:11:22

> Drugs are good. Lithium is just a salt.


So is cyanide ;) Not sure I follow your argument


 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke

Posted by Phillipa on April 20, 2012, at 19:53:28

In reply to Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

I don't feel I'd go that fair so do well and are able to stop meds without problems others no so is it the person or the med? Phillipa

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke

Posted by SLS on April 21, 2012, at 2:06:14

In reply to Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

> I remember last century mentioning Breggin on babble led to scorn and dismissal

I imagine that there remain vestiges of such a time.

> but he has been shown to be right more and more as time goes by.

Can you list a few salient examples that we can corroborate using other sources that show him to be right more and more?

Do you think we should embrace the thoughts and feelings of Dr. Breggin in their entirety? Should we do everything he says?


- Scott

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 2:15:00

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke, posted by SLS on April 21, 2012, at 2:06:14

I've read one or two of his books, and other statements he has made. I found them to be unsubstantiated and I don't see anything that has established any of the statements he made.

I don't see that drugs are addictive. A benefit that leads someone to continue to take a drug is not an addiction; and difficulty or side effects from stopping a drug are not proof of addiction. In any way. Just because an addictive drug has characteristic A does not mean that everything that has characteristic A is an addictive drug. That type of thinking is a logical fallacy.

I would like to k now what evidence you see that support's Breggin's analysis.

Willful

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by papillon2 on April 21, 2012, at 5:04:11

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke, posted by phidippus on April 20, 2012, at 18:11:22

> Drugs are good. Lithium is just a salt.
>
> Eric

It is also neuroprotective!

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2012, at 7:28:24

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » zazenducke, posted by SLS on April 21, 2012, at 2:06:14

> > I remember last century mentioning Breggin on babble led to scorn and dismissal
>
> I imagine that there remain vestiges of such a time.

O dear I am afraid you're right!


>
> > but he has been shown to be right more and more as time goes by.
>
> Can you list a few salient examples that we can corroborate using other sources that show him to be right more and more

That was a little general so I'll just withdraw that statement. I think I'd rather restrict my discussion to the article I posted.



>
> Do you think we should embrace the thoughts and feelings of Dr. Breggin in their entirety? Should we do everything he says?

Of course not! Question authority Scottie my boy! Think for yourself!


 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » Willful

Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2012, at 9:51:52

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 2:15:00

> I've read one or two of his books, and other statements he has made. I found them to be unsubstantiated and I don't see anything that has established any of the statements he made.
>
> I don't see that drugs are addictive. A benefit that leads someone to continue to take a drug is not an addiction; and difficulty or side effects from stopping a drug are not proof of addiction. In any way. Just because an addictive drug has characteristic A does not mean that everything that has characteristic A is an addictive drug. That type of thinking is a logical fallacy.

Whether or not a drug is addictive doesn't really matter as far as CBI is concerned. It is just the fact of taking the drug over a period of time.

>
> I would like to k now what evidence you see that support's Breggin's analysis.

The article was footnoted. Did you read all the references? Which ones do you disagree with?


 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 11:43:09

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » Willful, posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2012, at 9:51:52

One reason Breggin is a bit of a flashpoint for me is that I was influenced by his book (among other things) to refuse to take ADs for a very long time, but I have found them to have made a huge change in my life.

Are they perfect? no. I do notice some lessening of my ability to focus and to work-- but my life was really unliveable before while now i can feel hopeful and able to breathe a little.

I never was particularly convinced by many of his arguments, but some of his sense that drugs will destroy your individuality and all that-- that they are more like poison than treatments-- held a lot of influence and made me even more intransigent than I would otherwise have been. I don't say that I'm not stubborn enough on my own-- but I do think he can rigidify people in their fear and aversion even to ~~trying~~ these drugs-- which I think is unfortunately harmful to many, even though it does protect some.

This book of his specifically addressed ADs--not antipsychotics, which I think are an entirely different issue.

In fact what you say, Zazen would specifically discourage people from even a trial of drugs-- and this is what most concerns me. I'm sure that these drugs don't help some people -- although I think combinations can help more people than individual drugs. But the merrygoround of trying one and trying another can be incredibly depressing and harmful on it own-- so I don't see the current situation as a panacea.

But I fear that telling people that even a Short Trial will give them brain damage is just such an extreme position-- and the concept of brain damage is such a subjective one in your metric-- based on some sort of self-observation, by people who are self-admittedly depressed-- and therefore prone to think the worst-- has the very very destructive possible result that people just won't take even the risk of trying an AD out-- for fear of irreversible damage. Damage for which there is absolutely no evidence.

If there is evidence, I'm just as open as anyone to knowing what it is-- I mean real evidence-- not studies where an unrevealed number of rats are force fed high-fat diet-- there are as we know all sorts of problems with even identifying depression in rats-- much less stressing them, giving them ADs (what dose? by the way), force feeding them fats, and then drawing conclusions.

But if there is evidence, I just as much as anyone would want to protect people from damage. I just don't think there is any --about ADs-- that can be cited. There are side effects-- and people can stop the drug. But on your argument, people shouldn't even start the drug at all-- because there's no return.

That just isn't right.

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by LostBoyinNCReturns on April 21, 2012, at 11:51:53

In reply to Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

Breggin lacks credibility as a psychiatrist. I watched an interview of him on if I remember correctly, Sixty Minutes. This was six or seven years back I think. They mentioned he has no hospital privilges anywhere, none will give him any.

He is strongly connected to the anti-psychiatry movement and the groups that strongly push this fallacious idea that severe mental illnesses have no biological basis whatsoever. We all know that is bs.

While modern psychiatry has many many things wrong with it and needs an overhaul IMO, going in the direction of Breggin, et. al. would be in the wrong direction for things such as schizophrenia, bipolar, major depression, severe anxiety issues.

Eric

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro

Posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2012, at 13:06:30

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by LostBoyinNCReturns on April 21, 2012, at 11:51:53

Does anyone dispute this? Perhaps we can see where our disagreement (if any) begins.

1. Introduction
Every type of psychiatric medication initially produces effects that are specific to the particular drugs
unique impact on neurotransmitters and other aspects of brain function. For example, the SSRI antidepressants
block the removal of the neurotransmitter serotonin from the synapses; the antipsychotic drugs
suppress and block dopamine neurotransmission; and the benzodiazepines amplify GABA neurotransmission
which in turns suppresses overall brain function.
Although all psychiatric drugs have specific initial biochemical effects, over time other neurotransmitter
systems react to the initial effects and broader changes begin to take place in the brain and in mental
functioning.

 

Lou's request-ahbpsolu » Willful

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 16:15:54

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 11:43:09

> One reason Breggin is a bit of a flashpoint for me is that I was influenced by his book (among other things) to refuse to take ADs for a very long time, but I have found them to have made a huge change in my life.
>
> Are they perfect? no. I do notice some lessening of my ability to focus and to work-- but my life was really unliveable before while now i can feel hopeful and able to breathe a little.
>
> I never was particularly convinced by many of his arguments, but some of his sense that drugs will destroy your individuality and all that-- that they are more like poison than treatments-- held a lot of influence and made me even more intransigent than I would otherwise have been. I don't say that I'm not stubborn enough on my own-- but I do think he can rigidify people in their fear and aversion even to ~~trying~~ these drugs-- which I think is unfortunately harmful to many, even though it does protect some.
>
> This book of his specifically addressed ADs--not antipsychotics, which I think are an entirely different issue.
>
> In fact what you say, Zazen would specifically discourage people from even a trial of drugs-- and this is what most concerns me. I'm sure that these drugs don't help some people -- although I think combinations can help more people than individual drugs. But the merrygoround of trying one and trying another can be incredibly depressing and harmful on it own-- so I don't see the current situation as a panacea.
>
> But I fear that telling people that even a Short Trial will give them brain damage is just such an extreme position-- and the concept of brain damage is such a subjective one in your metric-- based on some sort of self-observation, by people who are self-admittedly depressed-- and therefore prone to think the worst-- has the very very destructive possible result that people just won't take even the risk of trying an AD out-- for fear of irreversible damage. Damage for which there is absolutely no evidence.
>
> If there is evidence, I'm just as open as anyone to knowing what it is-- I mean real evidence-- not studies where an unrevealed number of rats are force fed high-fat diet-- there are as we know all sorts of problems with even identifying depression in rats-- much less stressing them, giving them ADs (what dose? by the way), force feeding them fats, and then drawing conclusions.
>
> But if there is evidence, I just as much as anyone would want to protect people from damage. I just don't think there is any --about ADs-- that can be cited. There are side effects-- and people can stop the drug. But on your argument, people shouldn't even start the drug at all-- because there's no return.
>
> That just isn't right.

Willful,
You wrote, [...damage...which there is absolutly no evidence...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post an answer to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
Would you consider {tardive dyskinesia} to be brain damage?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's request-ahbpsolu

Posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 16:38:59

In reply to Lou's request-ahbpsolu » Willful, posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 16:15:54

Lou,

I specifically excluded anti-psychotic drugs from my discussion and said that my comments related to Anti-depressants.

Anti-depressants don't cause tardive dyskinesia.

I also don't think that generally anti-psychotic drugs when given in very small doses as adjuncts to anti-depressants therapy cause tardive dyskinesia. If and when it is shown that they do in any appreciable numbers, then that will be a matter of concern.

Willful

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro

Posted by huxley on April 21, 2012, at 19:24:38

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro, posted by zazenducke on April 21, 2012, at 13:06:30

> Does anyone dispute this? Perhaps we can see where our disagreement (if any) begins.
>
> 1. Introduction
> Every type of psychiatric medication initially produces effects that are specific to the particular drugs
> unique impact on neurotransmitters and other aspects of brain function. For example, the SSRI antidepressants
> block the removal of the neurotransmitter serotonin from the synapses; the antipsychotic drugs
> suppress and block dopamine neurotransmission; and the benzodiazepines amplify GABA neurotransmission
> which in turns suppresses overall brain function.
> Although all psychiatric drugs have specific initial biochemical effects, over time other neurotransmitter
> systems react to the initial effects and broader changes begin to take place in the brain and in mental
> functioning.


Zazsnducke, you are preaching to the wrong forum.
You won't get far here with the locals. I have tried before, they argue at first but soon ignore you if they don't like the home truths you are saying.

They will shoot back at you with propaganda such as anti psychotics are Neuro-Protective etc.

I am suffering from the exact symptoms that breggin describes and agree with everything you write.

Sometimes you have to live something to believe it.

 

Lou's reply-nonopstardyv? » Willful

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 19:35:44

In reply to Re: Lou's request-ahbpsolu, posted by Willful on April 21, 2012, at 16:38:59

> Lou,
>
> I specifically excluded anti-psychotic drugs from my discussion and said that my comments related to Anti-depressants.
>
> Anti-depressants don't cause tardive dyskinesia.
>
> I also don't think that generally anti-psychotic drugs when given in very small doses as adjuncts to anti-depressants therapy cause tardive dyskinesia. If and when it is shown that they do in any appreciable numbers, then that will be a matter of concern.
>
> Willful

Willful,
You wrote,[...Anti-depressants do not cause tardive dyskinesia...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
A. Do you agree that the following are known as [anti-depressants]?
1.prozac
2.elivil
3.lithium
4.nardil
5.zoloft
6.imipramine
B. If so, do you agree that they all can cause tardive dyskinesia? If not , which do not?
C. Do you know the chemical structure and the chemical constituants in the compounds that make up those drugs listed here?
D. (redacted by respondent)
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply-nonopstardyv? » Lou Pilder

Posted by phidippus on April 21, 2012, at 19:44:46

In reply to Lou's reply-nonopstardyv? » Willful, posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 19:35:44

Lithium is not an antidepresant. None of these drugs are associated with tardive diskenesia.

Eric

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro

Posted by sigismund on April 21, 2012, at 19:50:39

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro, posted by huxley on April 21, 2012, at 19:24:38

This is the age of fundamentalism, my psych said to me last time, in psychiatry as in everything else.

 

Lou's reply-nonozolo?

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 20:02:14

In reply to Re: Lou's reply-nonopstardyv? » Lou Pilder, posted by phidippus on April 21, 2012, at 19:44:46

> Lithium is not an antidepresant. None of these drugs are associated with tardive diskenesia.
>
> Eric

Eric,
You wrote,[...none of these drugs cause tardive dyskinesia...]
I am unsure as t what you are wanting to mean here. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Could you do your own search on if zoloft could cause tardive dyskinesia?
B. If so, what do you find?
C. If you want to use my search criteria, go to google and type in:
[zoloft, tardive dyskinesia, ehealthme]
Or bring up {www.drugs. com} for zoloft and look at the adverse reactions/side effects
D. Are you aware of the chemical composition of zoloft?
E. (redacted by respondent)
Lou

 

Lou's request-aztymgozby

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 20:34:52

In reply to Lou's reply-nonozolo?, posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 20:02:14

Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following. These are statistics from reports to the FDA and other groups after the drug has been taken for the yrears by many people after the trials by the drug manufacturers. The package inserts may not reflect in the same way that the real world adverse reactions from the drugs occure as time runs.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/tardive+dyskinesia

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro

Posted by huxley on April 22, 2012, at 6:16:59

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro, posted by sigismund on April 21, 2012, at 19:50:39

> This is the age of fundamentalism, my psych said to me last time, in psychiatry as in everything else.

It's also the age of lobby groups and big pharma companies spending billions, corrupting professionals, democroacy and experiments and really bottom line doing anything to peoples minds and bodies to make a dollar without a care in the world about their results.

A choice was made on Zyprexa, that the law suite from the diabetes casualties that they knew would happen, would be less than how much they make from selling it without the warning.

Go figure. You are all in good hands.

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment

Posted by bleauberry on April 22, 2012, at 9:00:30

In reply to Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by zazenducke on April 20, 2012, at 11:13:25

This topic isn't as clear cut as it might be presented. I mean, I could sit here a write a chapter on this topic with a look from both sides of the fence.

I think the key word is "chronic". That usually results because people do not generally take on the mindset of finding and resisting disease, they instead generally just want a pill in a bottle and let the disease keep going.

How are we to know the supposed brain impairment wasn't from the undetered disease and not the meds? Or maybe both not one or the other?

I don't think the Breggin view is right, and I don't think the conventional medical wisdom is right. Both sides of the fence are wrong. As with most things in life, the truth may be somewhere in between, a complicated mix of both, or could be something unrelated to either of them. Breggin's theory has one flaw....it is not predictable or replicable. In other words, not everyone who has chronic psychiatric drug use will have negative consequences. Only some people will.

That's where all the theories fall short.....these issues depend on the individual person's biochemistry, genetics, life style choices, meds, time, the underlying disease, and the fact that all of us are in a state of degradation and death beginning the day we are born. Each patient is uniquely different than the next.

My own personal opinion is that yes most drugs are toxic to the nervous system in one way or another. The approach might be to use them at the lowest possible doses and to resist chronic indefinite usage of them. Their primary role, in my opinion, should be to help improve the patient's quality of life on a temporary finite basis so they can focus more on the things that will really make a long term difference.

At other forums, and here too actually, we sometimes see people who have been on zoloft for 12 years, prozac for 8 years, nardil for 20 years, parnate for 20 years....stuff like that. These people are doing fine in life and their meds are truly life changing and miraculous to them. Doesn't sound like any chronic psychiatric drug brain impairment is happening with them. They're doing awesome despite anyone else's claims.

Me, yes, I truly believe I have a version of the Breggin theory psych med induced brain impairment. But as I said, it aint that simple. There were so many meds. Which, if any, were the actual toxic ones? How how much of the blame goes to other things we didn't consider, such as genetics, toxicity from heavy metals, toxicity from infection. My instincts tell me it is primarily the SSRIs. To me there is just something unexplainable that is just not a good idea to block that reuptake pump because it somehow messes up a bunch of other stuff. In other words, when those pumps are blocked for a long time, other stuff in the brain changes to adapt to that, and then when that med is removed the brain no longer knows how to get back to where it was....the previous biochemistries which were fine are now messed up.

Complicated stuff. I do not believe humans have the wisdom at this time to explain very much in psychiatric and that includes Breggin.

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment » bleauberry

Posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2012, at 20:36:09

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced Chronic Brain Impairment, posted by bleauberry on April 22, 2012, at 9:00:30

Blue to me an analogy is thyroid meds, and insulin. And some I know in real life are doing great on meds and don't give them a second thought Phillipa

 

Re: Lou's reply

Posted by Willful on April 22, 2012, at 22:56:36

In reply to Lou's reply-nonopstardyv? » Willful, posted by Lou Pilder on April 21, 2012, at 19:35:44

If you are unsure of what I was meaning, Lou, let me clarify:

I was meaning:
1. tardive dyskinesia is a movement disorder rarely seen except if someone has been treated, usually for a relatively long time (hence the inclusion of the word "tardive"), with anti-psychotic drugs.

2.. drugs that are anti-depressants are those drugs that are given to treat depression, hence their name.

3. a elavil is generally no longer given, but was I believe, considered an anti-depressant
b prozac is considered an anti-depressant (AD)
c. zoloft is considered an AD
d.. lithium is not considered an AD
e. nardil is considered an AD
f. imipramine is also not frequently prescribed but is also considered an AD

4. the above named drugs, which I said were considered anti-depressant drugs, have not been thought or shown to lead to tardive dyskinesia.
5. Other drugs not named here but also considered ADs have also not been found to cause tardive dyskinesia.

5. to clarify further:

I do not believe that ADs are thought to cause tardive dyskinesia.

Moreover, to answer your other question:

1. I know some facts about the chemical composition and constituents of the above-named drugs. I am not an expert and do not have deep knowledge about it.

2. One does not need to know the chemical composition or consituents of a drug to know whether it causes tardive dyskinesia.

3. One can determine if a drug causes tardive dyskinesia by doing an epidemiological analysis of the occurrence of tardive dyskinesia. Hence it is more useful to know the results of such analyses than to know the chemical composition of the drug.k if one wants to know whether tardive dyskinesia is caused by the drug.

4. this has been done and the results show that ADs do not cause TD, as stated above.

I hope this helps to you understand what I was meaning.

Willful

 

Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro » huxley

Posted by SLS on April 23, 2012, at 6:29:36

In reply to Re: Psychiatric drug induced CBI Intro, posted by huxley on April 21, 2012, at 19:24:38

Hi Huxley.

In what ways should we act upon the conclusions of Dr. Peter Breggin?

I hope things are still going well with you.


- Scott


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