Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 987723

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Morning dread...

Posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

I thought I'd describe a pattern that happens during depression that I've brought up recently and have the veterans weigh in...

My depression is marginally improved. I have fleeting moments now where I do seem better, but they don't last. They seem to happen much later in the day. Little teeny bursts of sunshine through the clouds..

Every day, I wake up with a sense of dread - a terrible anxiety... butterflies in my stomach, fear, emptiness.... a feeling like I want to throw up.

This gets better as the day goes on. I am wondering if it's because I take my Nardil three times a day, and by the time I have taken my second or third dose, enough of the drug is in my system to provide some symptom relief. (This would support the argument that I need more of it in my system, sooner [i.e. a higher dose].)

I am sleepy at the "right" time to go to bed at night, but I know what's coming the next morning. It still hits me like a ton of bricks every single morning even though I know it's coming.

When the lady in the Pristiq commercial says "I feel like I need to wind myself up just to get out of bed," I'm thinking, damn, I know what you mean. (It's too bad conventional treatments like the SSNRI she's promoting don't work for me!)

Does this ever go away? Yes, it has in the past. Will it go away this time for me, so I can get up and have a "good morning!" attitude again? I hope so. Perhaps after the next dose titration...

-z

 

Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by Phillipa on June 11, 2011, at 11:32:53

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

I feel like that also but don't take heavy meds just a bit of luvox, lexapro, xanax, valium. I have always thought it's the synthroid I wake to take during the early morning hours. Phillipa

 

Re: Morning dread...

Posted by Jerseygal on June 12, 2011, at 16:35:35

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

I experience the same pattern. In the late afternoon and evening, I feel almost normal, I feel myself. Then every morning I wake up either feeling anxious or depressed again and the cycle starts all over. From what I have read, and confirmed with my pdoc, this is a common pattern with depression/anxiety. You feel better at night and then feel terrible again in the AM. They don't have any answers as to why this occurs. Maybe it has something to do with shifts in things such as cortisol, etc. which rise and fall during certain times of the day.

 

Re: Morning dread...

Posted by jono_in_adelaide on June 12, 2011, at 18:05:25

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

Nardil doesnt work in the way you are hinting at, it takes a couple of weeks to work, so the three times a day thing doesnt come into it.

It might be a good idea to ask your doctor for a benzodiazepine, this will help reduce the anxiety and dreas you are feeling.

Tranxene (chlorazepate) might be a good one, you take a single dose at bedtime and it lasts for 24 hours, so you wouldnt wake up tense and anxious, you'd wake up calm and relaxed.

Usual dose of Tranxene is 15-30mg at bedtime. Thake it for a few weeks whiloe waiting for the Nardil to fully kick in. And of course, yes,you do need to get your nardil upto an effective does as soon as possible.

I cant work out why they only make 15mg pills when most people need 60-90mg per day, a higher dose pill would make dosing a lot more convenient

 

Re: Morning dread... » jono_in_adelaide

Posted by zonked on June 12, 2011, at 18:22:20

In reply to Re: Morning dread..., posted by jono_in_adelaide on June 12, 2011, at 18:05:25


> It might be a good idea to ask your doctor for a benzodiazepine, this will help reduce the anxiety and dreas you are feeling.

Got that, but it's Klonopin, which is IMO the ugly stepsister of the benzos. Anxiety? better. Depression? worse.

> Tranxene (chlorazepate) might be a good one, you take a single dose at bedtime and it lasts for 24 hours, so you wouldnt wake up tense and anxious, you'd wake up calm and relaxed.

Weird, is it known to have a "hangover" effect like Klonopin? (I get that from Klonopin but not from Xanax. Ativan doesn't do much for my anxiety but will keep benzo withdrawal at bay if nothing else.)

> And of course, yes,you do need to get your nardil upto an effective does as soon as possible.

I agree!

> I cant work out why they only make 15mg pills when most people need 60-90mg per day, a higher dose pill would make dosing a lot more convenient

Extended-release mechanisms weren't available when these pills were going off patent (patent protection being one of the chief incentives for drug companies to even market extended-release versions of medicines), and they are so rarely prescribed to not make it worthwhile for them to do so now.

But wouldn't that be awesome? "New once-daily Nardil XR (phenelzine sulfate extended release tablets), 45mg, 60mg, and 90mg tablets."

In an ideal world.

-z

 

Re: Morning dread...

Posted by jedi on June 13, 2011, at 0:31:37

In reply to Re: Morning dread... » jono_in_adelaide, posted by zonked on June 12, 2011, at 18:22:20

Hi guys,
I too am at my worse when I first wake up. Right now I am on 60mg of Nardil which has always required some sort of insomnia treatment for me. I have blamed the morning blahs on my sleep meds, mainly antihistamine + .5mg clonazepam. After a few cups of coffee, the cobwebs clear out, and I start to feel better.

Currently, I am undergoing some financial stress. I work in investment real estate and the market, of course, really stinks right now. Seems like that is the first thing that hits my brain when I wake up in the morning. Probably a big part of feeling like Shi*! when i get up.

Good Luck Guys,
Jedi

 

Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by floatingbridge on June 13, 2011, at 1:50:29

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

For me, two things coincided with the lifting of (years! of) morning dread:

Goodbye to my snri.

The beginning of emsam.

There are always life stressors. No pill for them :(

 

Re: Morning dread...

Posted by alchemy on June 14, 2011, at 20:31:04

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

I remember when my depression was worse in the morning. I had to keep reminding myself that it gets better as the day went on.

When I had an extreme anxiety phase, I woke up at 5:00 every morning no matter when I went to bed - my body screaming with anxiety. I would go on a run, which didn't help but passed some time. The mornings were definitely the worse.

Morning depression is common for those with mood disorders.

I don't know how or why, but my diurnal pattern has changed. My best time of the day is for about an hour after I wake up & is worse in the afternoons.

Fleeting moments of sunshine sound like good signs that you may be improving. Hopefully the sunshine will last all day :) (in my laymen's oppinion, I don't think its the nardil timing, especially since it's spread out)

 

Re: Morning dread... » alchemy

Posted by floatingbridge on June 14, 2011, at 20:41:19

In reply to Re: Morning dread..., posted by alchemy on June 14, 2011, at 20:31:04

Alchemy :-)
How are you doing?

fb

 

Re: Morning dread... » alchemy

Posted by zonked on June 14, 2011, at 20:41:39

In reply to Re: Morning dread..., posted by alchemy on June 14, 2011, at 20:31:04

Thanks so much for relating...

(and thanks to all of you... Depression is kind of like constant electrocution of the soul.)

I know I'll feel better eventually.

Your stories and support help keep me going :-)

-z

 

... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by Questionmark on June 16, 2011, at 18:46:25

In reply to Morning dread..., posted by zonked on June 11, 2011, at 10:58:13

I have also been experiencing this. Every morning i wake with terrifying, excruciating depression and feelings of dread and anxiety-- and overwhelming sleepiness.

I have almost always taken Nardil 3x/day.
The past several years i have varied my dose a lot (i know, it sounds foolish, but i have my reasons), 45mg being the max and often trying my damnedest to maintain on less. Currently i am only taking 30mg and have recently begun taking it 4x a day, as an experiment.

I've been noticing that recently these morning issues seem to be worse than before (though mg per mg it's hard to tell), and i have recently started taking the new generic (Gavis) phenelzine. So i'm not sure as it could be due to other factors, but I've been wondering if the generic is metabolized somewhat faster or something. I hope not.
Others' thoughts on this would be appreciated.

But i have to disagree with a number of the other posters in saying that Nardil is probably not a factor in this morning phenomenon. I feel pretty strongly that the nature of Nardil is largely involved in this.
Despite the half-life supposedly being 11 hours, and despite MAO enzymes supposedly taking several days for the body to manufacture again, for whatever reason, experientially, Nardil has very temporally limited effects. After about 6 or so hours from my last dose, I start to notice a difference in how i feel-- worse mood, more drowsy, more susceptible to anxiety. I also notice that if i only get 4 or 5 hours of sleep, I do not wake with those same feelings of dread, etc as I normally do. Presumably because it has been less time since my last dose of Nardil.
Nardil is just so damn unpredictable. SSRIs seem to give the same effects from one hour or day to the next. On Nardil it seems as if random periods of low mood, and drowsiness in particular, are unavoidable. The problem is, part of what makes it so good is also what makes it so hard to figure out and define -- it's such a complicated drug. It affects so many different neurotransmitter systems as well as a few trace amines. Trying to make sense of it all is not easy.

I've spent so much time thinking about how best to use Nardil: what dose; what frequency of dosing; how do i eliminate the horrendous difficulty in waking, and the morning depression and fatigue; how do I make it have more smooth effects; and on and on. And now the side effects, which were tolerable before, are really starting to become a problem for me. .... I'm so tired of this whole merry-go-round.

You are right... if only there could be an extended release Nardil.


A few points though from my experience:

1) Splitting the doses definitely seems preferable (at least 3x/day).

2) The higher the dose -- or at least the higher the nighttime dose -- the less severe the negative morning effects.

3) The more evenly you can divide your doses, the better.

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » Questionmark

Posted by zonked on June 16, 2011, at 20:05:19

In reply to ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked, posted by Questionmark on June 16, 2011, at 18:46:25

> I have almost always taken Nardil 3x/day.
> The past several years i have varied my dose a lot (i know, it sounds foolish, but i have my reasons), 45mg being the max and often trying my damnedest to maintain on less. Currently i am only taking 30mg and have recently begun taking it 4x a day, as an experiment.

Even the PDR/prescribing information (which is *so* outdated) recommends a titration up to "at least 60" as quickly as the patient can tolerate. Harvard medical school recommends a dose of 1mg per kg of body weight per day (I am NOT going to ask how much you weigh, but it's something to consider.) Why a max of 45 of Nardil until now? How long have you been on it? And even the PDR says it may take 90mg to get sufficient MAO inhibition in some individuals. I think you owe it to yourself to ask your MD to go higher!

>
> But i have to disagree with a number of the other posters in saying that Nardil is probably not a factor in this morning phenomenon. I feel pretty strongly that the nature of Nardil is largely involved in this.

My morning dread pre-dated taking Nardil - it's a feature of my depression. When I began to have a robust response (a day/two after increasing to 60), the dread was reduced by about 50%. What's weird is that I have required 90mg to respond last time, but 60 seems to have done the trick this time around. Who knows WTF is going on. Oh, I do weigh about 40-50lbs less than last time... hrm...

> Despite the half-life supposedly being 11 hours, and despite MAO enzymes supposedly taking several days for the body to manufacture again, for whatever reason, experientially, Nardil has very temporally limited effects. After about 6 or so hours from my last dose, I start to notice a difference in how i feel-- worse mood, more drowsy, more susceptible to anxiety. I also notice that if i only get 4 or 5 hours of sleep, I do not wake with those same feelings of dread, etc as I normally do. Presumably because it has been less time since my last dose of Nardil.
> Nardil is just so damn unpredictable. SSRIs seem to give the same effects from one hour or day to the next. On Nardil it seems as if random periods of low mood, and drowsiness in particular, are unavoidable. The problem is, part of what makes it so good is also what makes it so hard to figure out and define -- it's such a complicated drug. It affects so many different neurotransmitter systems as well as a few trace amines. Trying to make sense of it all is not easy.
>

I agree 100%. Seriously, it's not an easy med to dose or take. I too wish there were an XR version...The MAO inhibition alone doesn't explain the AD effect of Nardil (or for that matter Parnate either) because, on either drug, my symptoms start returning within a day or so of discontinuing the drug. (Either accidental or intentional.)

> 1) Splitting the doses definitely seems preferable (at least 3x/day).
>
> 2) The higher the dose -- or at least the higher the nighttime dose -- the less severe the negative morning effects.

> 3) The more evenly you can divide your doses, the better.

This is *very* helpful information, and I thank you for it. Do let me know how you do on 60... hopefully better than you have been doing.

Best,

-z

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by floatingbridge on June 16, 2011, at 20:12:04

In reply to Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » Questionmark, posted by zonked on June 16, 2011, at 20:05:19

Is the response due in part to the metabolites similarity to amphetamine? Just a shot in the dark.

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » floatingbridge

Posted by zonked on June 16, 2011, at 21:25:09

In reply to Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked, posted by floatingbridge on June 16, 2011, at 20:12:04

> Is the response due in part to the metabolites similarity to amphetamine? Just a shot in the dark.

You mean the PEA metabolite? Who knows! Could be - a very reasonable hypothesis. Could also have something to do with phenylethylidenehydrazine (try saying that 5 times in a row, out loud!), the metabolite which inhibits GABA-T (thus elevating GABA levels).

*Whatever* it is, I do know that you definitely do not want to skip more than one day of a Nardil dose regimen. Same goes for Parnate.

I could miss a few days on Zoloft (the one SSRI that worked, when it worked) and not notice a damned thing. MAOIs are definitely weird! But I am so glad we have them. =]

-z

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by Questionmark on June 17, 2011, at 19:12:52

In reply to Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » Questionmark, posted by zonked on June 16, 2011, at 20:05:19

> Even the PDR/prescribing information (which is *so* outdated) recommends a titration up to "at least 60" as quickly as the patient can tolerate. Harvard medical school recommends a dose of 1mg per kg of body weight per day (I am NOT going to ask how much you weigh, but it's something to consider.) Why a max of 45 of Nardil until now? How long have you been on it? And even the PDR says it may take 90mg to get sufficient MAO inhibition in some individuals. I think you owe it to yourself to ask your MD to go higher!

I appreciate the suggestions. But there certain things to consider:
Whenever the psychiatric or medical industry make gross overgeneralized, oversimplified claims like that a quick titration to 60mg, or 1mg/kg body weight, are ideal and recommended, it leaves me a little dumbfounded. If everyone who needed Nardil had the exact same neurochemical make-up, then this might have some rationale. Of course, if we lived in a fantasy world where everything was that simple and wonderful, we wouldn't need Nardil in the first place. The reality is, neurochemistry and its manipulation are far too complicated to warrant these kinds of generalizations.
I'm not at all directing this frustration toward you. It's reasonable to believe that something tossed around a lot by the experts should be valid. But if you think about, it's really a gross oversimplification.
I do have no doubt though that it could probably take some people at least 90mg to get sufficient MAO inhibition for their needs.
Also, aside from an opinion (and even that is rare), i rarely ask a psychiatrist anything. i tell him. OK, well i don't mean to sound like i'm that bold and assertive about it -- not at all -- but it's essentially true. It's important for us to remember that they are serving us, not vice versa.
...
But anyway, to your ultimate point... I agree that i am on a sub-par dose for almost anyone [who needs Nardil] -- even at my ~155 lbs. And I am certain i would feel better mood wise and SA wise if i increased my dose. But ... i'm just tired of dealing with the side effects. Not the dietary restrictions, they're an easy trade-off. But the side effects -- esp the one-- ... i just don't wanna deal with anymore. It is strange, i admit: i know there is no drug more helpful for me. And i have been in so much misery and pain this past half-year, esp. And i know where this relief. Yet i still can't get myself to go there. .... i dunno. It's too complicated too adequately discuss i guess. ... Also, though i have no moral objections to it for others, the self-identity confusion that comes from being totally changed by a drug is very psychologically conflicting for me (though i don't seem to care much while consistently ON a full dose of the drug). I dunno. It's a real philosophical dilemma, in any case. ... But that is a minor factor compared to the side effects. Anyhoo....

> My morning dread pre-dated taking Nardil - it's a feature of my depression.

Oh, interesting. OK maybe i was wrong then, in regard to a lot of people. See, i first noticed the "dread" when i withdrew from Paxil years ago. But it wasn't only in the morning, it was whenever i woke from sleep at any time -- including daytime naps. The same has been true w Nardil withdraw or insufficient Nardil. So for me the dread was definitely precipitated by medication.
And due to the subjectively short-acting nature of Nardil, I would still experience the morning dread even on a "fully" effective dose if I slept more than like 8 hours.

> This is *very* helpful information, and I thank you for it.

Oh good! That's very good to know.
Take care, and good luck, with the greatest antidepressant class known to Man.

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » Questionmark

Posted by zonked on June 17, 2011, at 22:47:24

In reply to Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked, posted by Questionmark on June 17, 2011, at 19:12:52

> Whenever the psychiatric or medical industry make gross overgeneralized, oversimplified claims like that a quick titration to 60mg, or 1mg/kg body weight, are ideal and recommended, it leaves me a little dumbfounded. If everyone who needed Nardil had the exact same neurochemical make-up, then this might have some rationale. Of course, if we lived in a fantasy world where everything was that simple and wonderful, we wouldn't need Nardil in the first place. The reality is, neurochemistry and its manipulation are far too complicated to warrant these kinds of generalizations.

I couldn't agree more.

> I'm not at all directing this frustration toward you. It's reasonable to believe that something tossed around a lot by the experts should be valid. But if you think about, it's really a gross oversimplification.

It is.

> I do have no doubt though that it could probably take some people at least 90mg to get sufficient MAO inhibition for their needs.
> Also, aside from an opinion (and even that is rare), i rarely ask a psychiatrist anything. i tell him. OK, well i don't mean to sound like i'm that bold and assertive about it -- not at all -- but it's essentially true. It's important for us to remember that they are serving us, not vice versa.

Yep. Good shrinks either:

1. Already know whatever it is you're coming into the appointment with

OR

2. Appreciate that you're proactive about your condition and genuinely consider whatever it is you want to bring to the table

Bad shrinks let their egos or lack of knowledge interfere with patient care, and can become very uncomfortable with patients who may have learned something they know *nothing* about.

I am fortunate to have good providers right now, but that hasn't always been the case.

Being on government insurance, I do not have much choice about where I go for care. When you pay out of pocket and your shrink is an *ssh*l*, you can say "See ya! I'm taking my money elsewhere--to the best psychopharmacologist money can buy, who is not you." But when you are stuck with whomever takes your government health insurance *and* they are *ssh*l*s, *AND* you can't afford to pay someone out of pocket you're kinda screwed if you don't get lucky, as I have been. I have someone awesome who does take the coverage I have now though. And if things continue improving I should be able to return to work and become self supporting again anyway. :D


> ...
> It is strange, i admit: i know there is no drug more helpful for me. And i have been in so much misery and pain this past half-year, esp. And i know where this relief. Yet i still can't get myself to go there. .... i dunno. It's too complicated too adequately discuss i guess. ... Also, though i have no moral objections to it for others, the self-identity confusion that comes from being totally changed by a drug is very psychologically conflicting for me (though i don't seem to care much while consistently ON a full dose of the drug). I dunno. It's a real philosophical dilemma, in any case. ... But that is a minor factor compared to the side effects. Anyhoo....

Believe it or not, I understand your dilemma. I have faced the same conflicts and concluded that, ultimately, it's a quality of life decision; and my quality of life on psychotropics is exponentially better than off them--even with the side effects.

Had I not discontinued Nardil my first time around, I may never have had an interruption in my life/career/etc.

The worst side effect, in Nardil's case, is the weight gain. This can be overcome, I believe jedi has kept it at bay with regular, intense exercise; and not giving into the Nardil munchies--which are good, healthy things anyway.

> Oh, interesting. OK maybe i was wrong then, in regard to a lot of people. See, i first noticed the "dread" when i withdrew from Paxil years ago. But it wasn't only in the morning, it was whenever i woke from sleep at any time -- including daytime naps. The same has been true w Nardil withdraw or insufficient Nardil. So for me the dread was definitely precipitated by medication.

Hmm. Interesting. I should clarify: the dread was (I use the past tense because it's mostly gone now) present whether I woke up in the morning, *or* from a nap. It's been a feature of my depression ever since my first episode..

> And due to the subjectively short-acting nature of Nardil, I would still experience the morning dread even on a "fully" effective dose if I slept more than like 8 hours.

If I sleep too much I almost always feel awful. If I sleep too little I may be tired, but don't feel awful in the same way. If I sleep too little but do *not* feel tired, *and* have lots of energy, and my bank account starts to drain rapidly it's time to call the doctor. (Heh.) (Sorry Parnate, you helped me a bit too much...)

> Oh good! That's very good to know.
> Take care, and good luck, with the greatest antidepressant class known to Man.

Isn't it though? BTW, do you take anything else besides Nardil? Are you in the US or elsewhere?

By the way, I didn't mean to be pedantic about your Nardil dose. Hope you weren't offended.

-z

 

Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » zonked

Posted by Questionmark on June 20, 2011, at 3:29:54

In reply to Re: ... And all things Nardil ... Re: Morning dread... » Questionmark, posted by zonked on June 17, 2011, at 22:47:24

> Yep. Good shrinks either:
>
> 1. Already know whatever it is you're coming into the appointment with
>
> OR
>
> 2. Appreciate that you're proactive about your condition and genuinely consider whatever it is you want to bring to the table
>
> Bad shrinks let their egos or lack of knowledge interfere with patient care, and can become very uncomfortable with patients who may have learned something they know *nothing* about.

So true, and well described. Unfortunately in my experience the bad shrinks seem to outnumber the good, at least in the U.S.


> I am fortunate to have good providers right now, but that hasn't always been the case.

Good!


> Being on government insurance, I do not have much choice about where I go for care. When you pay out of pocket and your shrink is an *ssh*l*, you can say "See ya! I'm taking my money elsewhere--to the best psychopharmacologist money can buy, who is not you." But when you are stuck with whomever takes your government health insurance *and* they are *ssh*l*s, *AND* you can't afford to pay someone out of pocket you're kinda screwed if you don't get lucky, as I have been. I have someone awesome who does take the coverage I have now though. And if things continue improving I should be able to return to work and become self supporting again anyway. :D

That's excellent. ... That's true though, when you don't have much choice, you don't have much choice.


> Believe it or not, I understand your dilemma. I have faced the same conflicts and concluded that, ultimately, it's a quality of life decision; and my quality of life on psychotropics is exponentially better than off them--even with the side effects.
>
> Had I not discontinued Nardil my first time around, I may never have had an interruption in my life/career/etc.

I have observed the same things in my own life. Amazing. ... But now, ... i dunno... Different things. ... But yeah, always be extremely wary of going off of it.


> The worst side effect, in Nardil's case, is the weight gain.

That's funny, cuz for me that is the best and a very welcome side effect, as without it i am emaciated.
That would be frustrating to have to deal with that as well though, for those who don't want it.


> Hmm. Interesting. I should clarify: the dread was (I use the past tense because it's mostly gone now) present whether I woke up in the morning, *or* from a nap. It's been a feature of my depression ever since my first episode..

That's so strange and interesting. I wonder what it is about severe depression that causes that phenomenon.


> If I sleep too much I almost always feel awful. If I sleep too little I may be tired, but don't feel awful in the same way. If I sleep too little but do *not* feel tired, *and* have lots of energy, and my bank account starts to drain rapidly it's time to call the doctor. (Heh.) (Sorry Parnate, you helped me a bit too much...)

Interesting that is again my experience with Nardil. You are confirming some of my beliefs even more. ... I didn't get manic with Parnate though.


> Isn't it though? BTW, do you take anything else besides Nardil? Are you in the US or elsewhere?

Not really besides some supplements, n-acetyl-cysteine being the main one (no noticeable effects). I've just started taking lamotrigine 12.5mg for a few days, just to kinda test it. Not sure about that yet.
You take anything else?
.. I am in the U.S., yes.


> By the way, I didn't mean to be pedantic about your Nardil dose. Hope you weren't offended.

Not at all, and i appreciate the intention.


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.