![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 56. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
Why oh why did I ever think that I could be ok without my meds? I have taken ADs alone and in combination for over 20 years - and they seem to work pretty well for 2-4 years or so. Then the depression creeps back in. When I realize the meds have quit working, I really get depressed. The ordeal of trying a new med (or meds), finding one that works, getting the right dose, dealing with the side effects... You KNOW what I'm talking about.
I had been taking 60mg (YES 60mg) of Lexapro, 50mg desipramine, 150mg trazodone, and 40mg Adderal XR for about 5 years. At the beginning 20 years ago I started with trazodone and was eventually up to 300mg - I could hardly wake up in the morning but the depression seemed to be gone. Then it came back. Dr weaned me off that and started me on Serzone. That worked for a few years but then quit working. I slowly reduced that drug while adding Effexor. Effexor seemed to work but again after about 3 years I was depressed again. Then I started on Celexa. And getting off Effexor was the WORST - I'm talking psychotic episode... Anyway when the Celexa started pooping out, instead of stopping that and starting with a new drug, Dr decided to start adding drugs. First desipramine, and then later trazodone. Oh - the Adderal was started way back about 15 years ago for ADD. When the depression started creeping back again, Dr replace Celexa with Lexapro - first 20mg, then 40mg, and when I was still depressed it was 60mg. That seemed to do the trick.
Looking back, I think it was in August of 2009 I starting getting depressed again. After moving across the country and working with a new Psy Doc I wasn't crazy about, oh no. The new Dr wanted to keep me on my current cocktail and just increase the desipramine - but wanted me to get an EKG as he was worried about my heart. Great! All these drugs are going to damage my heart! And I struggled with all the "normal" side effects - NO sex drive, NO bowel movements (and only producing goat pellets when I did have one), weight gain (I am a big fat cow now). I thought what the heck - maybe I should just stop taking these drugs. I slowly reduced the dosages over a period of six months (living hell) and have been drug free since the end of January. Now my depression is back with a vengeance... After all my struggling and suffering to get off the meds! Is there any hope at all that I can beat this thing without drugs? I think about suicide a lot, but would NEVER actually do myself in. I love my family too much to do that to them. But I am totally worthless this way - can't work, can't sleep, can't get out of bed, don't want to bathe, etc. etc.
I really thought that if I could get the meds completely out of my system, if I could deal with the withdrawal and be done with it, I would have a "clean" brain to deal with. Are all my neuropathways messed up for good? Did all those drugs do it? I have an appointment with a naturopath tomorrow and am going to try biofeedback. I'm also taking 5-htp.
Is there any hope or should I just find a psy dr I like better and get back on meds?
Thanks!
Posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2010, at 21:48:42
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
What's your diagnosis that's a ton load of meds no wonder you wanted off. I limit myself to three. See what the naturopath says. Good luck and keep up posted. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on May 4, 2010, at 0:36:52
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN » StillHopefull, posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2010, at 21:48:42
Phillipa asked a good question--what's your dx? Have you been drug-free anytime in the 20 years?
It seems stabilizing off meds might take longer than a few months. Someone here might be able to be more definitive.
I like the idea of finding someone else you like. Not easy when depressed. At least for another perspective or opinion.
One of my favorite questions that I ask myself is have meds ruined my brain. I counter with the damage caused by my years of untreated anxiety, insomnia, and depression. Not to mention the awful place I got to before I accepted my condition as serious.
Good luck, and courage.
(Depressed as you may be, you have your humor. )
Posted by Hombre on May 4, 2010, at 4:45:35
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by floatingbridge on May 4, 2010, at 0:36:52
If you aren't already, I'd research and get on a strong B-complex + extra B6, folic acid, niacin (learn to love the flush), zinc and most importantly MAGNESIUM.
Although my girlfriend does not have a history of serious depression, I've stabilized her from near-psychotic depression and anxiety/paranoia only using the above supplements. I'm only hoping it'll help you, I don't assume you don't need meds.
Also, I was noticing a bit of a poop-out effect on my current meds (effexor/remeron/seroquel) but adding magnesium really turned that around. I think it makes sense that the meds are trying to do their thing, but they might not have much to work with. Again, just opinion. I hope you can find what works for you.
Posted by bulldog2 on May 4, 2010, at 7:45:33
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
> Why oh why did I ever think that I could be ok without my meds? I have taken ADs alone and in combination for over 20 years - and they seem to work pretty well for 2-4 years or so. Then the depression creeps back in. When I realize the meds have quit working, I really get depressed. The ordeal of trying a new med (or meds), finding one that works, getting the right dose, dealing with the side effects... You KNOW what I'm talking about.
>
> I had been taking 60mg (YES 60mg) of Lexapro, 50mg desipramine, 150mg trazodone, and 40mg Adderal XR for about 5 years. At the beginning 20 years ago I started with trazodone and was eventually up to 300mg - I could hardly wake up in the morning but the depression seemed to be gone. Then it came back. Dr weaned me off that and started me on Serzone. That worked for a few years but then quit working. I slowly reduced that drug while adding Effexor. Effexor seemed to work but again after about 3 years I was depressed again. Then I started on Celexa. And getting off Effexor was the WORST - I'm talking psychotic episode... Anyway when the Celexa started pooping out, instead of stopping that and starting with a new drug, Dr decided to start adding drugs. First desipramine, and then later trazodone. Oh - the Adderal was started way back about 15 years ago for ADD. When the depression started creeping back again, Dr replace Celexa with Lexapro - first 20mg, then 40mg, and when I was still depressed it was 60mg. That seemed to do the trick.
>
> Looking back, I think it was in August of 2009 I starting getting depressed again. After moving across the country and working with a new Psy Doc I wasn't crazy about, oh no. The new Dr wanted to keep me on my current cocktail and just increase the desipramine - but wanted me to get an EKG as he was worried about my heart. Great! All these drugs are going to damage my heart! And I struggled with all the "normal" side effects - NO sex drive, NO bowel movements (and only producing goat pellets when I did have one), weight gain (I am a big fat cow now). I thought what the heck - maybe I should just stop taking these drugs. I slowly reduced the dosages over a period of six months (living hell) and have been drug free since the end of January. Now my depression is back with a vengeance... After all my struggling and suffering to get off the meds! Is there any hope at all that I can beat this thing without drugs? I think about suicide a lot, but would NEVER actually do myself in. I love my family too much to do that to them. But I am totally worthless this way - can't work, can't sleep, can't get out of bed, don't want to bathe, etc. etc.
>
> I really thought that if I could get the meds completely out of my system, if I could deal with the withdrawal and be done with it, I would have a "clean" brain to deal with. Are all my neuropathways messed up for good? Did all those drugs do it? I have an appointment with a naturopath tomorrow and am going to try biofeedback. I'm also taking 5-htp.
>
> Is there any hope or should I just find a psy dr I like better and get back on meds?
>
> Thanks!Yes again the meds ruined my brain. It more likely that you may have endogenous depression. You must have been having a mental issue before you ever chose drugs.
I really hate the idea of a natuarapath working with an acute mental issue. I don't have a lot of faith in 5htp. I would get back on the drugs and stabilize yourself. Once stable you can look for natural remedies at your leisure.
I think I saw stats once if you've had 3 or more depressive episodes more than likely you will need meds the rest of your life. For the natural med people 5htp, sjw or sam-e.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 4, 2010, at 10:22:32
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN » StillHopefull, posted by Phillipa on May 3, 2010, at 21:48:42
> What's your diagnosis?
Diagnosed with Major Depression...
Posted by StillHopefull on May 4, 2010, at 10:26:31
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by floatingbridge on May 4, 2010, at 0:36:52
> Phillipa asked a good question--what's your dx?
Diagnosis - Major Depression
>Have you been drug-free anytime in the 20 years?
No - I have been on some kind of anti-depressant med for the whole time...
> It seems stabilizing off meds might take longer than a few months. Someone here might be able to be more definitive.Anyone with insight???
And thank you very much for the support!
Posted by morganator on May 4, 2010, at 13:47:31
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
I'm not so sure 5htp is a good idea for a few reasons. One being a health reason that I read about somewhere but I cannot remember at the moment.
I'm curious to hear how the neurofeedback goes, I've been interested in this as well. I think it's great your giving it a try.
Instead of 5htp, I would give one of the superior brands of St. John's wort a go-New Chapter's SC27 or Serofin, Perika, or Kira.
Do you take fish oil, flax seed/oil, chia seed, and borage oil?
A good bioavailable form of Curcumin may be a good option as an adjunct to other natural therapies.
Personally, I am of the opinion that if you are prone to severe chronic depression and have been on medications for a long time, it is probably not a good idea to stop taking all medications. Maybe try to figure out which ones you can live without, but getting off all medications will make you vulnerable again to depression and anxiety, which, in my opinion, can do much more harm than medications themselves. It is believed that chronic depression and anxiety actually cause a form of brain damage. It is also believed that this damage can be reversed with the use of certain psychiatric medications(some antidepressants and lithium) and things like exercise and meditation. There are also some supplements that may contribute to reversing some of the damage brought on by moderated to severe chronic depression and anxiety.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 4, 2010, at 14:12:45
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN » StillHopefull, posted by morganator on May 4, 2010, at 13:47:31
> I'm not so sure 5htp is a good idea for a few reasons. One being a health reason that I read about somewhere but I cannot remember at the moment.
>
> I'm curious to hear how the neurofeedback goes, I've been interested in this as well. I think it's great your giving it a try.
>
> Instead of 5htp, I would give one of the superior brands of St. John's wort a go-New Chapter's SC27 or Serofin, Perika, or Kira.
>
> Do you take fish oil, flax seed/oil, chia seed, and borage oil?
>
> A good bioavailable form of Curcumin may be a good option as an adjunct to other natural therapies.
>
> Personally, I am of the opinion that if you are prone to severe chronic depression and have been on medications for a long time, it is probably not a good idea to stop taking all medications. Maybe try to figure out which ones you can live without, but getting off all medications will make you vulnerable again to depression and anxiety, which, in my opinion, can do much more harm than medications themselves. It is believed that chronic depression and anxiety actually cause a form of brain damage. It is also believed that this damage can be reversed with the use of certain psychiatric medications(some antidepressants and lithium) and things like exercise and meditation. There are also some supplements that may contribute to reversing some of the damage brought on by moderated to severe chronic depression and anxiety.m,
You wrote,[...It is believed that chronic depression and axniety actually cause a form of brain damage...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean herre. If you could post answers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Who are those that believe that chronic depression and axiety cause a form of brain damage?
B. What are the criteria, if you know, that they use to believe that?
C. Is there reserch concerning this, and if so could you could post a link here to that?
D. do you know what kind of brain damage the people that believe that define as happening to people? And if you know, is the damge reversible if you know?
E.Other questions if the above are answerd.
Lou
Posted by polarbear206 on May 4, 2010, at 15:20:08
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
> Why oh why did I ever think that I could be ok without my meds? I have taken ADs alone and in combination for over 20 years - and they seem to work pretty well for 2-4 years or so. Then the depression creeps back in. When I realize the meds have quit working, I really get depressed. The ordeal of trying a new med (or meds), finding one that works, getting the right dose, dealing with the side effects... You KNOW what I'm talking about.
>
> I had been taking 60mg (YES 60mg) of Lexapro, 50mg desipramine, 150mg trazodone, and 40mg Adderal XR for about 5 years. At the beginning 20 years ago I started with trazodone and was eventually up to 300mg - I could hardly wake up in the morning but the depression seemed to be gone. Then it came back. Dr weaned me off that and started me on Serzone. That worked for a few years but then quit working. I slowly reduced that drug while adding Effexor. Effexor seemed to work but again after about 3 years I was depressed again. Then I started on Celexa. And getting off Effexor was the WORST - I'm talking psychotic episode... Anyway when the Celexa started pooping out, instead of stopping that and starting with a new drug, Dr decided to start adding drugs. First desipramine, and then later trazodone. Oh - the Adderal was started way back about 15 years ago for ADD. When the depression started creeping back again, Dr replace Celexa with Lexapro - first 20mg, then 40mg, and when I was still depressed it was 60mg. That seemed to do the trick.
>
> Looking back, I think it was in August of 2009 I starting getting depressed again. After moving across the country and working with a new Psy Doc I wasn't crazy about, oh no. The new Dr wanted to keep me on my current cocktail and just increase the desipramine - but wanted me to get an EKG as he was worried about my heart. Great! All these drugs are going to damage my heart! And I struggled with all the "normal" side effects - NO sex drive, NO bowel movements (and only producing goat pellets when I did have one), weight gain (I am a big fat cow now). I thought what the heck - maybe I should just stop taking these drugs. I slowly reduced the dosages over a period of six months (living hell) and have been drug free since the end of January. Now my depression is back with a vengeance... After all my struggling and suffering to get off the meds! Is there any hope at all that I can beat this thing without drugs? I think about suicide a lot, but would NEVER actually do myself in. I love my family too much to do that to them. But I am totally worthless this way - can't work, can't sleep, can't get out of bed, don't want to bathe, etc. etc.
>
> I really thought that if I could get the meds completely out of my system, if I could deal with the withdrawal and be done with it, I would have a "clean" brain to deal with. Are all my neuropathways messed up for good? Did all those drugs do it? I have an appointment with a naturopath tomorrow and am going to try biofeedback. I'm also taking 5-htp.
>
> Is there any hope or should I just find a psy dr I like better and get back on meds?
>
> Thanks!Have you ever taken a mood stablizer? Has your p-doc ever mention this? With your history, I would seriously look into it.
Posted by StillHopefull on May 4, 2010, at 15:48:12
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by polarbear206 on May 4, 2010, at 15:20:08
> Have you ever taken a mood stablizer? Has your p-doc ever mention this? With your history, I would seriously look into it.
Nope - never taken a mood stabilizer and dr has never mentioned it...
Posted by Roslynn on May 4, 2010, at 17:20:24
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
Interesting thread, I know more than one person who is of the opinion that people with depression, etc. need to "dry out" and rid their brain of all the drugs. Then they will be better!
But usually the depression occurred first and then medication use followed, and for a lot of us we were hesitant in the first place to start the meds.
I do not equate our situation with that of the substance-abuse population (i.e., the need to detox). I get angry when I hear "you'd be better off without those drugs." Such people don't appreciate what we're dealing with. These people fail to take into account the possible suicidal feelings that may result from not being on an antidepressant, etc.
End of rant, sorry!
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 4, 2010, at 20:21:56
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by Roslynn on May 4, 2010, at 17:20:24
Friends,
The following article answers some questions that I think could have the potential to be part of this discussion.
The article is about as to if particular antidepressants are more likely to cause a mind-altered state for the one taking the drug to have them want to kill themselves.
The research involved 846 adults of which 751 attempted to kill themselves with 104 succeeding.
Lou
http://news.health.com/2010/05/04/antidepressant-suicide-risk/
Posted by morganator on May 4, 2010, at 23:21:36
In reply to Lou's response- psoewmedamo » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 4, 2010, at 14:12:45
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=60045
http://www.dearshrink.com/hippocampus.htm
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/newbraincell/
I hope this answers all of your questions.
Sorry I went a little crazy with the links.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 7:59:05
In reply to Re: Lou's response- psoewmedamo » Lou Pilder, posted by morganator on May 4, 2010, at 23:21:36
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=60045
>
> http://www.dearshrink.com/hippocampus.htm
>
> http://www.biopsychiatry.com/newbraincell/
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsmaxhealth.com%2Fheadline_health%2Fchronic_stress_brain%2F2009%2F12%2F03%2F293689.html&ei=Ke7gS8uxD5CS8gTmn7HUCQ&usg=AFQjCNHVQPIY76gzL-JxrInjbXCgbXwOUA&sig2=e5HQQ0tsat_1jgZlJPlukQ
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=9&ved=0CDMQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Finsciences.org%2Farticle.php%3Farticle_id%3D6714&ei=Ke7gS8uxD5CS8gTmn7HUCQ&usg=AFQjCNEeCF3xyzIHBlRvWPBb3hPcmyqueQ&sig2=w_UOtnJFSpwuRq3AaqAsHA
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biopsychiatry.com%2Fantidepressants%2Findex.htm&ei=oe7gS_b3D4LA9QSi04iwCQ&usg=AFQjCNGLDYYuBLwLpb-2sjemMCD_aCnvGQ&sig2=g3SjJyAZLuNBxeH5j9kE1A
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&ved=0CAsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpn.psychiatryonline.org%2Fcontent%2F38%2F17%2F24.full&ei=oe7gS_b3D4LA9QSi04iwCQ&usg=AFQjCNGLXP1unUtarGXtI-tZZIZ6KSpysA&sig2=0CqGhejJ_l8aPDqDLm_Jcg
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&ved=0CBAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farticles%2FPMC400689%2F&ei=oe7gS_b3D4LA9QSi04iwCQ&usg=AFQjCNHmQsZ4NF1cMWrVOhe7jpWBZUhNDA&sig2=NAGIahyJOnAw6ffvjN8CqA
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&ved=0CBMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0306452207015783&ei=9-7gS4arO5D29QS7q-2yCQ&usg=AFQjCNEHQ6kK9ZPn6pd-zDieWCoBpV9mTg&sig2=Al-cuos_rq0vEh--0s2XvQ
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=9&ved=0CDIQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fukpmc.ac.uk%2Farticlerender.cgi%3Fartid%3D962076&ei=9-7gS4arO5D29QS7q-2yCQ&usg=AFQjCNHu3JdBKliPr-LCjDODPBP0efLWvA&sig2=mJ-vMo0CKBiyVqBYWMEBGw
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F10987856&ei=b-_gS_L8F46E8wTXhvnICQ&usg=AFQjCNGhBW7W5dFiFjo9opCSpD8qZvKG-g&sig2=S6a-51tEjvVUOM1jPcxKpA
>
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17686496&sa=X&ei=5e_gS8DbJ4SU8gTUt5jDCQ&ved=0CAoQzgQoADAA&usg=AFQjCNFGovqLCcocYia4eXzLbCdfT9bXjg
>
> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12716419&sa=X&ei=5e_gS8DbJ4SU8gTUt5jDCQ&ved=0CAsQzgQoATAA&usg=AFQjCNEXd3NEWaI3c9NWLUEYBPT9Agn_Wg
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jneurosci.org%2Fcgi%2Fcontent%2Ffull%2F25%2F38%2F8680&ei=JvDgS_LLA5De9ASts5nDCQ&usg=AFQjCNFK1ltZ39dCAXqW85lOwuBaERzUyw&sig2=xBUP-gaLJATQZ1xqHJkekQ
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&ved=0CCsQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F18286389&ei=JvDgS_LLA5De9ASts5nDCQ&usg=AFQjCNHCq0RlKT93nR8CIhUutZuR2aZELw&sig2=h-rayukhxkrOn-morLluaw
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&ved=0CCEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farticles%2FPMC1413959%2F&ei=JvDgS_LLA5De9ASts5nDCQ&usg=AFQjCNGIWJWt6ezp7IOC4NJjgAAWdVMezA&sig2=_YexFz605NwKLUfouPXRwg
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=9&ved=0CD0QFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.signaling-gateway.org%2Fupdate%2Fupdates%2F200312%2Fnrn1286.html&ei=JvDgS_LLA5De9ASts5nDCQ&usg=AFQjCNF_-oqvoj6mT0Ex4DN1tvmK_yXSJA&sig2=DOodIkYzAp19zaIbN5sf5A
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2F4mind4life.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F08%2F18%2F7-scientifically-proven-ways-to-stimulate-brain-cell-growth-neurogenesis%2F&ei=BfHgS8uaHYX29ATdiuXFCQ&usg=AFQjCNH914R9FWdREtcJJ2ZGaEQCRqZhuQ&sig2=mB8S0XkCW1knNOyHWGSRfw
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0006899307012590&ei=OfHgS5eNGISU8gTUt5jDCQ&usg=AFQjCNHvIlGXnB8RpwtNKBlrc7s0_PAtTg&sig2=rXuz82pUrr_rMOehJEFkWA
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&ved=0CCUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F18362141&ei=OfHgS5eNGISU8gTUt5jDCQ&usg=AFQjCNE2NKBnfALf_w2NrOONi7fBrJji5Q&sig2=zKqviVIRNO_g2Bu3OwmNLQ
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&ved=0CBkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nutraingredients.com%2FResearch%2FBlueberries-found-to-boost-brain-cells&ei=BPLgS6bdPIKw9QTlmNjTCQ&usg=AFQjCNE4iUudUbtb5li132p2J7QTXVP0dw&sig2=Rb2WVWz5r43wwuuyP3RYDQ
>
> I hope this answers all of your questions.
>
> Sorry I went a little crazy with the links.m,
You wrote,[...hope this answers all your questions...]
I have read reports of the nature that you have posted links to many years ago. When reading those reports, I would like for others to look at the article in the link that I offer at the end of this post explaining what is known as neurogenesis when you read the articles offered here.
After you read the article in the link that I am offering here,I would like those that are interested in this discussion to see if the researcher in the articles offered is or is not an employee of a pharmiceutical company that makes psychotropic drugs. I would also ask that readers check to see that the author does or does not use words like, may, or might, or we think, or other words that do not show proof but speculation.
Now even if there is some infomation about neurogenesis in the offered links here that connect chemicals to increasing or decreaing neurogenesis, does that mean that taking mind-altering drugs for a long period of time will anul the fact that the drugs could induce a mind-altered state that could cause the one taking the drug to want to kill themselves? Or would it anul the fact that the drug could cause sudden death or bleeding in the brain or tardive dyskinesia or parkinson like diease or a life-ruining condition or death by heart attck or blood disease?
There is more evidence that there are dangers to taking antidepressants today than there were many years ago whern some of the limks to articles offered here were written. And if you read the offered links here closly, you may find some that say that they do not know, and go on to say that no one else knows either, what cause depression. I think that I do, and object to their conclusion to include me who they do not know.
My friends, I do not want you to stop taking your drugs because the withdrawal period could have the potential to induce a mind-altered state for you to want to kill yourself. What I am writing here about is confoming to the mission of the forum which is for education. I offer education so that you can make a more informed decision as to how you want to proceed with your situation. I would like for you to ask the one that has prescribed these drugs to you that if they prescribe another drug to you while you are taking one drug, and there is research to show that the combining of the drugs could be contraindicated or cause death, to ask that provder why they want you to take the two drugs together. And if you go to a doctor for depression and they tell you to take a drug that is listed as a drug that could induce a mind-altered state to have you want to kill yourself, to ask that provider why they are wanting you to take that drug with the other. And if they say the benefits outweigh the risk, could you ask them to explain that to you if the drug could cause you to want to kill yourself?
You see, many could be here at a crossroad in their life. They may be addicted and want to go the way of discontinuing any drugs that they are taking. I want to help those people in how they could overcome the addiction and withdrawal period which could then be supportive to those that want to take that road. Those that want to take the road of taking mind-altering chemicals in their system have Mr. Hsiung providing a section here for his experts that write here about psychotropic drugs that you can see in a section of this forum. There are also the members here posting about their use of mind-altering drugs.
I think that it could be more helpful for people to know about these drugs {before} they take them. for after taking them, you could become addicted and then be faced with either continuing those drugs for life and be subjected to the potential of having a life-ruing condition from them or kill themselves or die from the drug, or going through a withdrawal from the drug which has it's own potential to induce a mind-altered state to have the one taking the drug to want to kill themselves. .
Lou
here is the link abour neurogenesis that I would like for you to read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis
Posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 8:35:36
In reply to Lou's reply-crsrowds » morganator, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 7:59:05
> here is the link abour neurogenesis that I would like for you to read.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis
I don't understand why you chose this Wiki entry to support your views. What does it say that you feel is important?I am sure that drugs used to treat depression can make depression worse and lead to the precipitation of suicidality. One thing that you have not addressed, however, is the frequency with which this occurs. I don't happen to have any statistics to present. Perhaps you do. What is the ratio of lives saved to lives lost? I have reacted badly to a few antidepressants. However, I still opt to continue drug trials because the illness is so horrific. It is easy for people to call for the recall of antidepressants when they themselves are not in a state of severe depression. Lots of different drugs used for other indications have serious side effects that include fatality. How does one judge whether or not such a drug should be made available?
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 10:14:19
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-crsrowds » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 8:35:36
> > here is the link abour neurogenesis that I would like for you to read.
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurogenesis
>
>
> I don't understand why you chose this Wiki entry to support your views. What does it say that you feel is important?
>
> I am sure that drugs used to treat depression can make depression worse and lead to the precipitation of suicidality. One thing that you have not addressed, however, is the frequency with which this occurs. I don't happen to have any statistics to present. Perhaps you do. What is the ratio of lives saved to lives lost? I have reacted badly to a few antidepressants. However, I still opt to continue drug trials because the illness is so horrific. It is easy for people to call for the recall of antidepressants when they themselves are not in a state of severe depression. Lots of different drugs used for other indications have serious side effects that include fatality. How does one judge whether or not such a drug should be made available?
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote,[...drugs..can make depression worse and lead to..suicidality....the frequency...].
Let us reason together. let's suppose we roll the dice and want to know the frquesncy of a two comming up (snake-eyes).
Well, that frequency is one out of 36. Now let's suppose we have a revolver with 6 places for bulllets and one chamber has a bullet in it. The frequesncy of having the bullet in the chamber is one out of six.
But let us go on here. You see, when you take that pill, the frquency of that there will be induced a mind-altered state to cause one to kill themself is not able to be determined by observation as in the dice or gun. Niether is there a way to observe the frquency concerning sudden death or tardive dyskinesia or parkinson's like disease or fatal blood disease.
But now let us look at rolling the dice 3 times a day. Then the frequecy of rolling snake-eyes becomes more probable as the more times we roll the dice and the frequency of getting snake eyes to come up approaches a certainty if you continue to roll the dice. And looking at the gun example, if the person pulls the trigger 3 times a day, then the frequency approaches one as time runs, which is a certianty.
So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
Now there becomes a way to look at this another way. I have a broad background of chemistry at the undergraduate level but I have studied on my own post-graduate. In particular concerning the use of mind-altering drugs by the ancients, who were called sorcerers. They used the drugs that they ground up from plants and insects and such thousands of years ago to alter the minds of people to control them or make them suffer or die. Many of the psychotropic drugs today are chemically synthesized by chemists that have the chemicals that are related from those ancient drugs from plants used by sorcerers thousands of years ago.
Now what I am getting at is that a chemical can be known as to what it can do to a person's nervous system as has been known for thousands of years. The question here is the frequency. Well, could not the effects that are called side effects present themselves eventually to all people that take these drugs in question here if they take the drug continuously? If sexual dysfunction and loss of sex drive is a listed side effect, could that not mean that it is an effect of the drug to all eventually if they keep taking the drug? Now there are other effects that happen to not all others. Then there is the frequency for those as per how many times a day they take the drug and for how many days if the frequency could be known. Then there is the combination of drugs. The sorcerer did use combinations of drugs in the ancient liturature. They had ways to make new drugs by processes such as boiling and adding acids or alcohols as just a few examples. But the point in question here is could or could not a person taking the drug have the potential horrors of the effects of the drugs happen to them including agonizing disfigurment or death and the aspect of having their mind altered to want to kill themselves? That is what I am talking about here. To give education so that one taking these drugs can make up their own mind as to if the benefits outweigh the risks.
Lou
Posted by CaffeinePoet on May 5, 2010, at 11:18:19
In reply to Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by StillHopefull on May 3, 2010, at 20:18:59
Sorry you're depressed.
I've been off since November. I calculated, it was off for 22 weeks. 13 weeks were great. 9 weeks were an increase in obsessive anxiety, hypochondira, memory problems, etc. building to a crescendo. After hemming and hawing over the issue I started on a med again yesterday.
Here's what I think; if it's lasted for longer than a month, seek medical treatment. You can STILL pursue biofeedback and work to find a combo that is truly effective for you. Also deal with medical issues. AND take a pill. Some people do deal without medication, but why suffer?
Posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
In reply to Lou's reply-rolthedyce » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 10:14:19
> So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
The probability that you describe here is given as the rate per person, not the rate per dose. The likelihood that someone will incur a behavioral side effect might actually decrease with progressive doses.
Perhaps you can find some statistics to work with in order to establish the rate of suicide due to antidepressant use versus that of untreated depression. It might help people to make decisions.
For what it's worth, a recent study reported that the risk of suicide is the same among the various antidepressants. I can't offer the actual article, but it can be found in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on May 5, 2010, at 12:47:42
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by CaffeinePoet on May 5, 2010, at 11:18:19
Hey CP,
Sorry to hear your not feeling so well yourself. Best to you on your meds and recovery.
fb
Posted by StillHopefull on May 5, 2010, at 15:14:15
In reply to Re: Off Meds Since January - Depressed AGAIN, posted by CaffeinePoet on May 5, 2010, at 11:18:19
> Sorry you're depressed.
Thanks - I am in the company of a lot of intelligent, caring people here. I'm sorry we are all depressed. It DOES help to know that I am not alone - that there are others who know how painful all this business is. Unless one has felt the despair, and gone through the struggle, they can't really understand. I know you, may I call you my new friends?, understand what I am going through.
> I've been off since November. I calculated, it was off for 22 weeks. 13 weeks were great. 9 weeks were an increase in obsessive anxiety, hypochondira, memory problems, etc. building to a crescendo. After hemming and hawing over the issue I started on a med again yesterday.
I started weaning down on my meds in August and have been completely med free since the end of January. Looking back, my meds probably had quit working last summer. I completely lost all motivation - I kept going to work but on my days off I would stay in bed all day. Not sleeping, just like I was "turned off" - my depression is an absence of feelings. Except for guilt. I feel guilty for being so worthless. Very typical depressive mood. I quit my job in March. Now the struggle is to not stay in bed EVERY day. I am looking for another job - can't afford not to. The latest depressive symptom has been crying. I cry at the drop of a hat...The wierd thing is, I did go to the neurofeedback treatment yesterday. And immediately after I didn't feel like crying. And I don't feel too much like crying now, although if I start thinking about what I'm putting my husband through I could work up to it... ;-D Anyway, part of me thinks the neurofeedback is quakery. Another part of me wants to believe in it. I will post a message on the alternative therapy board about the whole thing for those who are interested.
> Here's what I think; if it's lasted for longer than a month, seek medical treatment. You can STILL pursue biofeedback and work to find a combo that is truly effective for you. Also deal with medical issues. AND take a pill. Some people do deal without medication, but why suffer?
The internist who supervised my withdrawal said that to take is pill is easy, and to deal with the depression in other ways is a lot of work. Pretty funny huh? Asking someone severely depressed to work on themselves? WTF? I know I would feel better if I went for a walk, but that's pretty hard to accomplish if I can barely make it out of bed. But, today seems to be a good day. I not only made it out of bed, I've taken a shower, brushed my teeth, gotten dressed, and MADE the bed. I even did a load of laundry. Little accomplishments - so insignificant to most, such a big deal for me.I am going to give it one more month - during this month I will do the neurofeedback, take the supplements, and try not to think any stinky thoughts that bring me down. If I am still down in the pit in 4 weeks, I will have to find a new dr. and get back on meds. And I will keep you updated.
And thanks again to all for the info, feedback, links, and support!
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:18:58
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
> > So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
>
> The probability that you describe here is given as the rate per person, not the rate per dose. The likelihood that someone will incur a behavioral side effect might actually decrease with progressive doses.
>
> Perhaps you can find some statistics to work with in order to establish the rate of suicide due to antidepressant use versus that of untreated depression. It might help people to make decisions.
>
> For what it's worth, a recent study reported that the risk of suicide is the same among the various antidepressants. I can't offer the actual article, but it can be found in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Scott,
You wrote,[...the probability that you decribe here is given as...].
I used the two examples of the rolling of dice and the revolver to show two types of thinking in relation to probability. In the rolling of dice, each roll is not affected by the previous roll. In the revolver, unless we spin the revolver each time, which I did not specify, then that is a different way to look at probability from the rolling of dice.
But now let us look at another way of thinking about probability. suppose we have 1000 balls in a tank and there is one green ball. Let us suppose that we pick one ball out of the tank and want it to be the green ball. The probablilty is one out of 1000 to pick the green ball (on the first pick). Now if we do not replace the ball and pick again, that is different from replacing the ball and picking again.
Now in relation to taking a drug, we ask if taking a pill each time has the same probability of inducing a mind-altering state to the person so that they want to kill themselves, or is the taking of continued pills accumlative in making the probability greater (or less) for that state to happen to the person.
Well, if the drug is notated as in the clas of drugs that could induce the person to kill themselves, then that is different from the person taking a drug that is not classified as such. Here we are interested in mind-altering drugs and the research shows that they have the potential to induce a state of mind that is altered so that the ones taking the drug could want to kill themselves. Now I would think that if the drug has that potential, then it can do what it can do. In reading the reports of those that killed others while on those type of drugs, there are those that had a dreamlike state of mind and they did not have recall of them killing others. Some of those also killed themselves and we do not know if all of those in that catagory knew that they were taking their own life. In the trial records of some mass murders, who were on antidepressants, some said that they did not know that they were killing others and that the drug caused them to kill the other people.
There are records of people admitted in hospitals for suicide attempts, but there could be a large number of people that tried and failed and were not admitted.
But getting back to the issue here, if one wants to think in terms of probability as to if or if not taking the drug will induce a mind-altered state to have them want to kill themselves, or others, or to think that if they are suicidal before they take the drug that they will have less of that type of thinking by taking the drug, or some other reasoning, then they have the opportunity from what they understand about probability as to if taking the drug is trying to get a particular ball out of a tank by either replacing the ball on each pick or not, to take the risk or not, thus determing for themselves if the benefit outweighs the risk or if it is possible that taking the drug will lessen the chances.
Lou
Posted by bulldog2 on May 5, 2010, at 15:21:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
> > So lets say that the frequecy of one having a mind-altered state induced by taking the drug is one out of 1000, and they take the drug 3 times a day, then in 333 days or so, the frequency could be even, like a flip of a coin.
>
> The probability that you describe here is given as the rate per person, not the rate per dose. The likelihood that someone will incur a behavioral side effect might actually decrease with progressive doses.
>
> Perhaps you can find some statistics to work with in order to establish the rate of suicide due to antidepressant use versus that of untreated depression. It might help people to make decisions.
>
> For what it's worth, a recent study reported that the risk of suicide is the same among the various antidepressants. I can't offer the actual article, but it can be found in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
>
>
> - Scott
>Hi Scott
You know there is an obvious flaw in ad's make people committ suicide argument. I'm depressed and someone tells me to read the bible because that will show me the way and lift my depression. I start reading the bible and committ suicide three weeks later. Conclusion:Bible reading makes people committ suicide. So someone is on an ad and committs suicide. There are so many variables in one's life you just can't make these conclusions.
Have they run any double blind studies where both groups were analyzed to have the exact same illness. In other words the two groups were virtual clones of each other.
The depressed person was taking an ad when he/she committed suicide. Prove that the ad was the reason. More people in the ad group committed suicide than the non-ad group.That's the entire argument that ads caused these suicides. Again were both the ad group and non ad group identical for genetics and environment.I guess someone with an agenda could really rig this test. I would like someone to analyze some of these suicides to link the suicides to the ads. The whole argument is more people in the ad group committed suicide than the non ad group. Conclusion ads cause suicide. I think at best you have to take the result and analyze it further to establish a firm connection other than He/she took an ad and therefore the ad caused the suicide.
This is bogus science and the conclusion is full of holes.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 5, 2010, at 15:58:57
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce, posted by bulldog2 on May 5, 2010, at 15:21:34
Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I ask that you click on this link and look at the infomation presented by the doctor.
Lou
You can see this link by:
A. bring up google
B. Type in;
Youtube, Can Antidepressants Cause Violence?
if you get more than one, this one is produced by {Psychetruth}
Posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2010, at 20:59:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-rolthedyce » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 5, 2010, at 12:43:24
Scott this the article? Phillipa
From Medscape Medical News
Antidepressant Use Carries Similar Suicidal Risks Across Drug Type, Class
Study in Adults Mirrors Recent Findings in Adolescents
Megan Brooks
May 4, 2010 In adults initiating antidepressant therapy, there appears to be no clinically relevant variation in risk for suicidal acts by individual type or class of antidepressant medication, according to a report in the May issue of Archives of General Psychiatry.
The finding, from Sebastian Schneeweiss, MD, ScD, of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, and colleagues, mirrors findings from a study in children and adolescents published this month in Pediatrics by the same researchers.
In October 2004, the US Food and Drug Administration issued an advisory regarding a potentially increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors among children and adolescents taking antidepressants. A subsequent meta-analysis of trials in adults found no overall increase in risk, but data on individual agents were lacking.
Therefore, Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues analyzed healthcare utilization data from all 287,543 British Columbia residents 18 years and older who started taking an antidepressant between January 1, 1997, and December 31, 2005.
The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) were the most common class of medication prescribed, accounting for 65.5% of antidepressant use. Paroxetine and citalopram, the most commonly prescribed agent, accounted for 39.7% and 24.2% of overall SSRI use, respectively.
During the first 12 months of treatment, the researchers identified 751 attempted and 104 completed suicides an event rate of 6.06 suicidal acts per 1000 person-years (95% confidence interval [CI], 5.65 6.48). Most of the events occurred in the first 6 months after initiation.
After extensive propensity score adjustment, the researchers failed to see any significant differences in the risk for suicide and suicide attempt among individual antidepressants or classes of antidepressants SSRIs, serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors, tricyclic agents, or other newer and atypical agents.
Compared with the initiation of fluoxetine hydrochloride treatment, initiation of citalopram hydrobromide treatment yielded a hazard ratio (HR) of 1.00 (95% CI, 0.63 1.57), fluvoxamine maleate (HR, 0.98; 95% CI, 0.63 1.51), paroxetine hydrochloride (HR, 1.02; 95% CI, 0.77 1.35), and sertraline hydrochloride (HR, 0.75; 95% CI, 0.53 1.05).
Similar findings emerged in analyses restricted to a treatment-naive subgroup of patients with no antidepressant use in the prior 3 years (n = 199,594; 69.4%).
A major strength of the study, Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues note, is its large and stable population, which allowed them to look at a variety of medications and at subgroups. However, the inability to fully adjust for mental health conditions is 1 limitation of the study.
"Our finding of equal event rates across antidepressant agents supports the US Food and Drug Administration's decision to treat all antidepressants alike in their advisory," Dr. Schneeweiss and colleagues conclude in their report.
"Treatment decisions should be based on efficacy, and clinicians should be vigilant in monitoring after initiating therapy with any antidepressant agent," they add.
The study authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2010;67:497-506.
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