Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 945160

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Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 14:14:44

Was on the medrol pack for arthritis. The first day you take the largest dose of methyl-prednisone. (24 mg).

Anyhow felt great that day. With each day my mood receded. The dose also was smaller with each day.

Do cortisone receptors themselves have AD properties? Does cortisone stimulate a release of neurotransmitters? I wonder what casacde of events occurred that led to an AD response.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 16:06:36

In reply to Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 14:14:44

> Was on the medrol pack for arthritis. The first day you take the largest dose of methyl-prednisone. (24 mg).
>
> Anyhow felt great that day. With each day my mood receded. The dose also was smaller with each day.
>
> Do cortisone receptors themselves have AD properties? Does cortisone stimulate a release of neurotransmitters? I wonder what casacde of events occurred that led to an AD response.


I venture to guess that Linkadge would know something about this.

Prednisone is well known to produce psychiatric side effects ranging from depression to mania. My grandmother had visual hallucinations while she was on it.


- Scott

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 17:23:08

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 16:06:36

> > Was on the medrol pack for arthritis. The first day you take the largest dose of methyl-prednisone. (24 mg).
> >
> > Anyhow felt great that day. With each day my mood receded. The dose also was smaller with each day.
> >
> > Do cortisone receptors themselves have AD properties? Does cortisone stimulate a release of neurotransmitters? I wonder what casacde of events occurred that led to an AD response.
>
>
> I venture to guess that Linkadge would know something about this.
>
> Prednisone is well known to produce psychiatric side effects ranging from depression to mania. My grandmother had visual hallucinations while she was on it.
>
>
> - Scott

Some alt health docs use low dose cortisone for depression. They give it to the patient and if they have a positive response in mood and energy they keep them on it. The theory that some patients are suffering from adrenal fatigue and this addresses the problem.

It seems that when you look at the issue of depression many of the theories are based on adrenal fatigue. In the case of the tcas norepinephrine reuptake causes downregulation of that neurotransmitter and gives the adrenals a rest and a chance to recover. Not sure how serotonin fits into this. That's why it might take weeks to work. Waiting for the adrenals to recover and produce all the feel good hormones.

Giving prednisone directly gets the job done in a more direct way. Also pred just may have some ad properties for some. This may be the answer for some depressions. Just another hypothesis.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2010, at 21:38:48

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 16:06:36

It killed my Mother over time as her adrenals glands quit working and developed Addisons disease. And her personality changed to one of temper tantrums and rages at me for nothing as a child. My sister gets psychiatric reactions also from medrol packs. Needs them for poison ivy. It's a very scarey med. Phillipa

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by hopefullynow on April 27, 2010, at 9:20:24

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 17:23:08

Bulldog, I think you're right.I have some adrenal issues and after a day working hard, the next morning I feel extremely drained, my back pain feels worse.I usually take a small amount of prednisone and force myself to take a nap.After waking up I feel a different person, my clomi does it's job, I feel good, positive outlook.I am convinced its an adrenal issue.I also feel low doses of prednisone to help the AD effect of anafranil, not to cause depression or psychotic thoughts.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 9:51:33

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 17:23:08

Hi Bulldog.

> Some alt health docs use low dose cortisone for depression.

What dosages are used?


- Scott

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by Laney on April 27, 2010, at 10:15:35

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 9:51:33

Well for me, I was taking up to 30mg. HC (hydrocortisone) daily for months to rest my adrenals. I followed the protocol of a Yahoo adrenals group. I was hoping this would be the answer because without adequate adrenal health one cannot ususally tolerate thyroid meds which are supposed to be depression helpful. Well, it's a long story but maybe low doses of HC helped with depression for some on the group but higher doses can actually make depression worse.

Laney

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 10:51:27

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 9:51:33

> Hi Bulldog.
>
> > Some alt health docs use low dose cortisone for depression.
>
> What dosages are used?
>
>
> - Scott

They usually use hydrocortisone which is much weaker than the synthetic prenisone. They use doses in the ranges of 5 - 20 mg and one of the brand names used is cortef.

Please disregard Phillip's post. She is referring to very high dose prednisone over long periods which can be dangerous.

The dose of hydrocortisone (natural cortisone) which is 5 - 20 mg is equivalent to 1 to 5 mg of prednisone. If there is adrenal fatigue there is usually a fast and dramatic response in terms of mood and energy.

Once the adrenals are refreshed is a good time to do blood work on the thyroid. It's like the domino effect. When the adrenals are exhausted the production of other hormones suffer and once they are refreshed ther other hormones can be produced.

Actually a simple enough test to do if you can find cortef.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 12:52:18

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 10:51:27

How do you think this figures in?

I'm having a hard time understanding this stuff.

Is your baseline cortisol level high or low?

My baseline salivary cortisol is high and I am a dexamethasone non-suppressor.

I tried a one-week treatment using mifepristone. It didn't help. However, I felt sort of washed-out afterwards. Do you think this was from adrenal exhaustion? I don't know.


- Scott


--------------------------------------------------


Antidepressant treatment with mirtazapine, but not venlafaxine, lowers cortisol concentrations in saliva: A randomised open trial

Barbara ScharnholzaCorresponding Author Informationemail address, Bettina Weber-Hamannb, Florian Lederbogena, Claudia Schillinga, Maria Gillesa, Vera Onkena, Pascal Frankhauserc, Daniel Kopfd, Michael Deuschlea

Received 4 January 2009; received in revised form 17 August 2009; accepted 26 August 2009.
Abstract

Lowering the concentrations of free cortisol in depressed patients may be an important prerequisite to prevent glucocorticoid-related sequelae of depression. We tested the hypothesis that the hypothalamuspituitaryadrenal (HPA) system-dampening effects of venlafaxine and mirtazapine differ. We compared the course of morning (08.00h) and afternoon saliva cortisol (16.00h) in 42 mirtazapine- and 45 venlafaxine-treated depressed patients during a 1-week wash-out and a 4-week treatment period in a randomised open trial. Mirtazapine lowered afternoon cortisol from week 1 to 4. In contrast, during the course of the entire treatment period, venlafaxine did not attenuate saliva cortisol concentrations. Treatment effects of mirtazapine on cortisol concentrations did not differ in remitters and non-remitters to treatment. High baseline cortisol concentrations, on the other hand, were related to an unfavourable course during venlafaxine treatment and patients remitting during venlafaxine treatment had significantly lower afternoon cortisol concentrations in saliva, when compared to non-remitting patients. Thus, mirtazapine and venlafaxine show different effects on HPA system activity as measured by saliva cortisol. This may be of relevance with regard to physical sequelae of depression


--------------------------------------------------

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 14:05:30

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 12:52:18

> How do you think this figures in?
>
> I'm having a hard time understanding this stuff.
>
> Is your baseline cortisol level high or low?
>
> My baseline salivary cortisol is high and I am a dexamethasone non-suppressor.
>
> I tried a one-week treatment using mifepristone. It didn't help. However, I felt sort of washed-out afterwards. Do you think this was from adrenal exhaustion? I don't know.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Antidepressant treatment with mirtazapine, but not venlafaxine, lowers cortisol concentrations in saliva: A randomised open trial
>
> Barbara ScharnholzaCorresponding Author Informationemail address, Bettina Weber-Hamannb, Florian Lederbogena, Claudia Schillinga, Maria Gillesa, Vera Onkena, Pascal Frankhauserc, Daniel Kopfd, Michael Deuschlea
>
> Received 4 January 2009; received in revised form 17 August 2009; accepted 26 August 2009.
> Abstract
>
> Lowering the concentrations of free cortisol in depressed patients may be an important prerequisite to prevent glucocorticoid-related sequelae of depression. We tested the hypothesis that the hypothalamuspituitaryadrenal (HPA) system-dampening effects of venlafaxine and mirtazapine differ. We compared the course of morning (08.00h) and afternoon saliva cortisol (16.00h) in 42 mirtazapine- and 45 venlafaxine-treated depressed patients during a 1-week wash-out and a 4-week treatment period in a randomised open trial. Mirtazapine lowered afternoon cortisol from week 1 to 4. In contrast, during the course of the entire treatment period, venlafaxine did not attenuate saliva cortisol concentrations. Treatment effects of mirtazapine on cortisol concentrations did not differ in remitters and non-remitters to treatment. High baseline cortisol concentrations, on the other hand, were related to an unfavourable course during venlafaxine treatment and patients remitting during venlafaxine treatment had significantly lower afternoon cortisol concentrations in saliva, when compared to non-remitting patients. Thus, mirtazapine and venlafaxine show different effects on HPA system activity as measured by saliva cortisol. This may be of relevance with regard to physical sequelae of depression
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>

Scott

Your questions are past my understanding. I believe my urine 24 hour cortisol levels were normal. But this doesn't take into account ebbs and flows.

I think the test using hydrocortisone is more looking at clinical results rather than lab values. You take hydrocortisone starting at 5mg and if no result 10 mg and go as high as 20 mg. If you feel better you probably have adrenal fatigue.

Adrenal fatigue happens in two stages. In the first stage your cortisol levels would be high as stress causes your body to produce more cortisol. In the final stage your cortisol levels would be low as your adrenals are now exhaused. Whatever stage of adrenal fatigue your body is in the extra hydrocortisone would relieve the burden.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 15:53:01

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 14:05:30

> Adrenal fatigue happens in two stages. In the first stage your cortisol levels would be high as stress causes your body to produce more cortisol. In the final stage your cortisol levels would be low as your adrenals are now exhaused. Whatever stage of adrenal fatigue your body is in the extra hydrocortisone would relieve the burden.

Good explanation.

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS

Posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 18:01:22

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by SLS on April 27, 2010, at 15:53:01

> > Adrenal fatigue happens in two stages. In the first stage your cortisol levels would be high as stress causes your body to produce more cortisol. In the final stage your cortisol levels would be low as your adrenals are now exhaused. Whatever stage of adrenal fatigue your body is in the extra hydrocortisone would relieve the burden.
>
> Good explanation.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott

Scott

One more point. When your body is preoccupied with making cortisol the adrenals cannot make suffucient amount of other hormones that it usually makes. When you throw in exogenous cortisone it cannot recognize the source but knows the body has enough cortisol and can now make other hormones the body needs.

Now not eveyone turns out to be suffering from adrenal fatigue and do not feel better when given extra hydrocortisone. So they have to look elsewhere for the source of their depression.

I don't know if you've seen studies that autopsies of depressed people revealed many cases of adrenal hypertrophy.

I would believe that enlarged adrenals would point to damaged adrenals that probably will never be totally repaired to their original state. I doubt that cbt or alt medicine can fix a problem such as this. It would seem this is a condition similar to diabetes that would require lifelong intervention. I don't know if current antidepressants can do the job. Possibly damaged adrenals causing depression will require lifelong hormonal balancing. The current antidepressant merry go round that p-docs engage in needs to be replaced with a meaningful system of medical detective work that will find the source of the disease and the best response available.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2010, at 19:17:14

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS, posted by bulldog2 on April 27, 2010, at 18:01:22

Bulldog please don't speak for me thank you. Phillipa ps I have no idea of the dose. But do know medrol as have taken myself. No effect at all. My sister reacts differently.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2010, at 19:33:43

In reply to Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 14:14:44

Here's an informative link on medrol packs. Seems it's good for rheumatoid arthritis. Phillipa many side effects noted.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/medrol.html

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by desolationrower on April 27, 2010, at 22:15:49

In reply to Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 14:14:44

cortisol can start off ok, but turn dysphoric

theres a lot on hpta axis and depression

-d/r

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS

Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 28, 2010, at 14:53:37

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by SLS on April 26, 2010, at 16:06:36

>Prednisone is well known to produce psychiatric side effects ranging from depression to mania.

Absolutely. Long-acting corticosteroids such as dexamethasone also cause insomnia very frequently.

I think it's fair to say that many of the people who initially experience a mood lift on prednisone end up feeling quite depressed a few weeks down the line.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 15:21:06

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2010, at 19:33:43

> Here's an informative link on medrol packs. Seems it's good for rheumatoid arthritis. Phillipa many side effects noted.
>
> http://www.drugs.com/pro/medrol.html

Phillipe you totally missed the point as usual. We are talking of low dose hydrocortisone for adrenal fatigue. It's the natural form as our body makes and a much lower dose than a medrol pack. I did comment on a medrol pack for me.But for adrenal fatigue we were talking of hydrocortisone. The doses we were talking about are equivalent to 1-5 mg of prednisone.

You are always jumping in with stories of terrible side effects not matter what the topic is. But what you often fail to factor in is dose related.

I know you once mentioned the disease your mother had. Maybe addison's. The doses of prednisone to treat that would be high and would eventually cause severe side effects in most people. We were talking of mini doses of hydrocortisone.

Your remark was not correct for doses used for adrenal fatigue. It's like hormone replacement. If done correctly one should feel better and not have bad sides.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 15:28:42

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 28, 2010, at 14:53:37

> >Prednisone is well known to produce psychiatric side effects ranging from depression to mania.
>
> Absolutely. Long-acting corticosteroids such as dexamethasone also cause insomnia very frequently.
>
> I think it's fair to say that many of the people who initially experience a mood lift on prednisone end up feeling quite depressed a few weeks down the line.
>
>

To desolation and Ed

The adrenal fatigue part of this thread is not done with prednisone. Please go back and read. I said I used pred. But when I talked about adrenal fatigue with Scott I mentioned hydrocortisone. That is basically the form the body makes and is much gentler than prednisone. Now go back and reread what I wrote to Scott. HYDROCORTISONE. Also supplemented in small amounts as if doing hormone balancing. In the Yeast Connection it is mentioned as an alternative way of correcting adrenal fatigue. If done correctly can be done long term. Can also be adjusted as the adrenals correct themselves.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by bleauberry on April 28, 2010, at 18:30:43

In reply to Prednisone and Immediate AD Response, posted by bulldog2 on April 26, 2010, at 14:14:44

I just wanted to say I'm impressed.

Up to this point I thought I was the only one around here that knew anything about adrenal fatigue and the whole cortisol connection to neurotransmitter function.

I feel like such a weirdo outsider sometimes talking stuff no one knows about, not even their doctors. But every now and then, someone comes along and says it better than I ever did.

Thanks for the thread here. Very informative for those who don't know.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » ed_uk2010

Posted by sigismund on April 28, 2010, at 18:46:08

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 28, 2010, at 14:53:37

>Long-acting corticosteroids such as dexamethasone also cause insomnia very frequently.

So do you think that beclamethosone dipropionate (from Becanase Aq) could do the same?

Doctors and pharmacists sometimes say (patronisingly, I feel) that the drug is not absorbed systemically.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bleauberry

Posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 18:59:16

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by bleauberry on April 28, 2010, at 18:30:43

> I just wanted to say I'm impressed.
>
> Up to this point I thought I was the only one around here that knew anything about adrenal fatigue and the whole cortisol connection to neurotransmitter function.
>
> I feel like such a weirdo outsider sometimes talking stuff no one knows about, not even their doctors. But every now and then, someone comes along and says it better than I ever did.
>
> Thanks for the thread here. Very informative for those who don't know.

Hi Bleauberry

Yes I've been aware of the adrenal/cortisol connection since I read the book called the "yeast Connection". I've believed for years that stress leads to fatigued adrenals leads to depression. Now I'm not saying all depression but possibly a big player in a lets say a majority of depressions. The fact that anti depressants work at all is probably due to blocking the reuptake of norepinephrine and eventual down regulation of their receptors. This lets the adrenals get rested. The old tcas are primarily ne reuptake blocker. Not sure how the ssris affect the adrenals. Welcome to the rested adrenal/cortisol connection.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 19:51:07

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bleauberry, posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 18:59:16

Adrenal fatique can heal on own by sleeping the repair work is from 10pm to 2am I believe. I can google. Phillipa

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2

Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2010, at 20:03:03

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bleauberry, posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 18:59:16

Well here's a natural site to healing the addrenals in adrenal fatigue. Phillipa

http://www.naturalnews.com/019339.html

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response

Posted by hopefullynow on April 29, 2010, at 0:32:16

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bleauberry, posted by bulldog2 on April 28, 2010, at 18:59:16

Bulldog, Bleauberry,
I agree, after years of stress caused by anxiety, sleep problems, some of us have serious issues with adrenals, it's quite obvious since they pump adrenaline and cortisol uncontrolable for so long and HPA axis is disregulated, they tend to burn out.I always "cycled" in a way that adrenals were on fire due to anxiety to the roof for a few days then one week of total lethargy, felling drained, depressed and dysphoric.Once I stopped this go-up go-down i have been left with weak adrenals which under stres (psychological, or physiological) tend to burn out in normal conditions of every day life.

Every time, i supplement my AD coctail with tiny amounts of prednisone, everything is going back to normal, my energy restores, my mood balances and i feel absolutely normal, no more "cycling".Indeed these tiny amounts of prednisone (hydrocortisone no available - just injectable)do their job, restoring my natural energy levels, sleep pattern and mood.

 

Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bleauberry

Posted by morganator on April 29, 2010, at 1:10:25

In reply to Re: Prednisone and Immediate AD Response » bulldog2, posted by bleauberry on April 28, 2010, at 18:30:43

BB, you should check out Mind and Muscle.


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