Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 928422

Shown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 10:14:15

In reply to Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:03:32

Hi Gayle.

I don't think "less is more" in the case of your experiences with Parnate and nortriptyline. It is possible that the depression was a true relapse from losing MAO inhibition. That you feel better now might be the result of a withdrawal rebound improvement that can occur with MAOIs and tricyclics. Having reduced the dosage of both drugs could be responsible for what you are currently experiencing. The improvement is likely to be temporary.

Of course, I am hoping that I am wrong. The brain is an enigma. It is pretty silly to think that one can know how it is going to react to change with certainty.

Have you been experiencing any vivid dreaming?


- Scott

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:48:44

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 10:14:15

Scott:

Oh my gosh "YES"!!

I'm right now trying to get over the dreams I had last night!!!

VIVID!!

Why??

g

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 14:09:22

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:48:44

Gayle your're feeling better now right? Love Phillipa

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by hyperfocus on December 7, 2009, at 14:59:34

In reply to Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:03:32

What's the reason for decreasing the dose? If you're in remission why change things?

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 15:14:29

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:48:44

> Scott:
>
> Oh my gosh "YES"!!
>
> I'm right now trying to get over the dreams I had last night!!!
>
> VIVID!!
>
> Why??

What you are experiencing is due to a phenomenon known as REM rebound. Parnate pretty much sits on top of REM sleep and squashes it. When you remove the weight of Parnate MAO inhibition, REM sleep springs up with great force, causing over-dreaming.

I think you should return to 80mg. Perhaps your doctor will allow you to do that if you report to him how poorly you are doing.


- Scott

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » hyperfocus

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 17:54:55

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by hyperfocus on December 7, 2009, at 14:59:34

> What's the reason for decreasing the dose? If you're in remission why change things?

I was falling down a lot...some pretty bad spills. I didn't break a bone or anything so I wasn't worried.

When my pdoc heard of the falling he had a fit!! and reduced my parnate from 80mg to 60 and my nortrip from 25 to 10mg. I tried to explain to him that I have had inner ear balance problems for a long time. I didn't think very much of it was from the Parnate. He wouldn't listen.

I have to admit I feel more "stable" on less parnate - less likely to fall. But if I'm going to get depressed again ...no no no.

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 17:58:44

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » hyperfocus, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 17:54:55

How long have you been on Parnate now?


- Scott

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 18:07:39

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 15:14:29

Hi Scott:

Don't you NEED REM sleep to feel good and rested? Isn't that a good thing to have some REM dreams? What does losing that kind of REM sleep do to you over time?

I'm not feeling great today like I did yesterday. I did a lot of things, but I shouldn't be this tired. I don't feel weepy and depressed, just exhausted and sleepy. I can't wait for night to come so I can go to sleep!!

How long do I need to stay at this amount to get through withdrawal and know for sure it wont be enough? I am feeling more balanced and less likely to fall. But I sure don't want to be depressed!!!

Thanks for your help!!

Hugs,
Gayle

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 19:41:58

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 18:07:39

Gayle do you take anything for the inner ear problem like antivert? I've also had them and probably still do. I also thought REM was important? Love Phillipa

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 19:47:53

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 17:58:44

Scott:
I've been on Parnate since May 6th! But
If you remember it didn't really kick in until I stopped the amytriptyline and started the nortriptyline. I don't remember when that was.

I didn't get up to 70-80mg parnate until October.

xxoo
g

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 19:55:15

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 19:41:58

Phillipa:

No, I don't take meds for my inner ear. It doesn't bother me too much, things like always having to keep one hand on a wall in the shower, stuff like that.
It's the occasional bouts of labyrinthitis that are horrible!

I called the Ear-Nose-Throat doc and there are no appts right now. I was put on a list. So I did get that in motion.

Thanks for asking,

Gayle

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2009, at 20:25:37

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 19:55:15

Good antivert really worked well for me when took it it was relaxing also. Phillipa

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by kirbyw on December 7, 2009, at 22:20:15

In reply to Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 10:03:32

Gayle
You didn't direct your question to me. As we discussed in another thread, I have 27 years of Parnate success, with some treatment interruptions when I didn't need anything. I have not been on anything else since 1982, except for a brief and failed Remeron trial in early August.
I was miserable. Once I got back on to Parnate i felt normal again.

I would also ask about life circumstances, if anything else was going on in your life when you dropped to 60 mg. For me life circumstances do have an impact on the medication and vica versa.
If I have been through a really difficult time I may raise my Parnate by 10 mg, and when things are going well, I can be very quick to lower the dose a bit. Right now, I am just taking 20 mg and I am feeling basically "ok" Also I would perhaps be at 30 mg but I don't like the blood pressure effects that come with Parnate combined with my blood pressure/heart rate medication that i have to take since I had a bypass last year. But if I began to feel really bad, either "out of the blue" or because of a real life set back, I would go back up to 30 or even 40 mg, without speaking to any Doctor.
The advantage of long term Parnate experience is that I do adjust my own dose. There is no reason to see a Doctor. You might consider asking your Doctor to give you permission to vary your dose slightly according to how you feel
I have no experience with the falling problem. Its sounds like it is totally different than parnate induced postural hypotension, and if it is, then you need to convince your Doc that this is the case.
The other thing about Parnate is that there can be some bad days, once in a while. I have confidence that the Parnate will eventually start to work again, but sometimes I have past through periods like you described. I would usually raise my dose but it wouldn't always work right away.
But this to me is FUNDAMENTAL. We shouldn't expect to feel great all the time. What is important is that when we feel bad, that we also remember that it is possible to feel good, and that the good feeling will eventually return. But feel bad for a few days at a time should not be viewed as the end of the world, but part of a process of recovery that takes a long time. Even several years after starting Parnate I could get into the depths of depression. But somehow the thought that Parnate does work, was very reassuring at these times, and in fact it always did work.
Also, as indicated above, its important to use the energy and sense of well being provided by Parnate to try to solve real life problems, that are more difficult to solve in the depths of depression. Depression in most of our cases, is biochemical but it is not separate from what happens in our lives.
How many times in the past 25 years did I have to force myself to get out of bed to do something that I felt I just couldn't do. But when I actually went and did it, I always felt just a little bit better. And in some way I truly believe that that my biochemistry was very subletly affected by whatever it was that I did.


One of my docs used the phrase:
"function, then feel" which is very much a cognitive approach. But it really works. Similarly the relationship between "thought" and
"affect" is very important. Your thoughts can change your mood very profoundly. Sometimes negative thoughts are unavoidable, but we need to work to control negative thinking as best as we can.

Well I have rambled a little bit, but I hope this has been helpful.
Rick (my name is Rick, even though I log in as Kirby-when I first joined the list I had a problem with the technology, and finally ended up with a new log-in and password)

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 22:46:15

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 18:07:39

> Don't you NEED REM sleep to feel good and rested?

No.

Stage 4 delta wave sleep is the more important phase for restoration. Too much REM, which is seen in depression, can be counterproductive and leave one feeling less rested.

Regarding hypotension, I found that the longer I was on Parnate, the less that dizziness was a problem. It took several months at the higher dosage to see it all but disappear. Everyone is different, though.


- Scott

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 23:52:29

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 22:46:15

> > Don't you NEED REM sleep to feel good and rested?
>
> No.
>
> Stage 4 delta wave sleep is the more important phase for restoration. Too much REM, which is seen in depression, can be counterproductive and leave one feeling less rested.
>
> Regarding hypotension, I found that the longer I was on Parnate, the less that dizziness was a problem. It took several months at the higher dosage to see it all but disappear. Everyone is different, though.
>
>
> - Scott

Thank you Scott! That was just what I wanted to know. I feel like my Parnate hypotension is much better and getting more so all the time. The inner ear is something else, and I'll get it checked out. Also I'm happy to know I don't need REM sleep.
Can I tell if/when I am in Stage 4 Delta Wave sleep?? If I'm dreaming, which I do, on 80mg Parnate, is that dreaming Stage 4 Delta Wave Sleep?

Thanks!
Hugs,
Gayle

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » kirbyw

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 0:54:42

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by kirbyw on December 7, 2009, at 22:20:15

Hi Rick:

Thanks for adding your experience with Parnate. I named Scott in my thread not to discourage any one from commenting,which I welcome, but to be sure Scott saw my thread and helped me as he has many times in the past. Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

I'm trying to figure out whether I might be OK to stay with 60mg. Thats a pretty hefty dose. But if I need more I'll take it, one way or another.

My pdoc just over reacted. When I told him I fell out my back door and hurt both ankles and hit my head on the wrought iron railing, he freaked. His mother died of the same fall of a brain bleed. She was 90! I'm been seeing him 15 years and I know he doesn't want me to fall/die, but I think he lost his subjectivity.

So I decided this was a good time to see whether or not 60mg might be a therapeutic dose for me.
I don't know whether what I'm going through is withdrawal and will level out, or too little med and will continue a downhill slide. Parnate is a confusing drug for me.

I appreciate and agree with all your good suggestions. I practice most all those things very well except when I've been so depressed I couldn't even speak. I'm also pretty realistic about my life. I've raised 3 sons into good men and I expect life to be a lot of hard work and disappointments as well as some good days.
I've been having a hard time with the death of my gentleman friend of 20 years duration, and my best girlfriend of 35 yrs. duration. Lots of major loss.
Right now, living alone is pretty painful for me. But I still live my life and do what needs to be done.

I welcome any ideas about parnate withdrawal vs too little parnate.

I was happy to hear that your heart bypass had worked so well!

Thanks for all the information. I appreciate your thoughtfulness!

Best wishes,
Gayle

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 6:29:17

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 7, 2009, at 23:52:29

> Can I tell if/when I am in Stage 4 Delta Wave sleep??

One is oblivious to everything while in stage 4 sleep. However, one can dream during this phase.

> If I'm dreaming, which I do, on 80mg Parnate, is that dreaming Stage 4 Delta Wave Sleep?

I dream too at 80mg.

Dreaming can occur at any stage of sleep. It is unusual during stages 1 and 2, but can occur more often during deep sleep. Deep sleep (slow-delta wave sleep), which had been divided between stage 3 and stage 4, has now been combined into stage 3. There is no longer a stage 4.

Don't worry, you are sleeping just fine.

How are you feeling today?


- Scott

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by kirbyw on December 8, 2009, at 6:58:02

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » kirbyw, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 0:54:42

Gayle
Really sorry to hear about these two deaths. Nothing is worse, and anyone would be depressed.
I don't know how people can get through these kinds of losses.

In my case, my mother who I was very close to, committed suicide when I was 19 years old, and this has had a profound effect on every aspect of my life. I never got along well my father, who was and continues to be (at age 88) a verbally abusive and angry person, who even to this day, continues his tirades and abuse against me. Whereas my mother was the opposite, kind and nurturing, a professor of biochemistry at the University of Chicago.

At the time of her illness (1967) my mother was treated psychoanalytically for her depression, as an in patient at the "world reknown" Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago. Her treating physician was a psychoanalyst. Can you imagine that. Well, very few medications were available, although MAO's were, but I doubt if she ever received them. I was never told any details of her illness and I was away at college when all this happened.

I inherited not only the psychological impact of her suicide, but also the biochemical brain chemistry dysfunction that most likely caused it.

I am single, a gay man, 62 years old. I had several long term relationships, but none of them evolved in something permanent. Luckily I have developed a good relationship with my younger brother and his family and spend a lot of time with them. And I learned on my own, after the death of my mother, how to be "emotionally adopted" by many families that I became close to during the course of my life. Most of these people were in the Chicago area, although some have moved away. As far as I am concerned I was an orphan at the age of 19, because my father could never control his rage attacks. But I count myself lucky to have a lot of good friends.

I had my first major depressive episode in 1982 at the age of 35 and it was terrible. i wound up in two psych hospitals for a total of about 7 weeks. at the first hospital they were giving me tricyclates which had no impact at all, but finally at the depression research unit of Rush St. Lukes hospital in Chicago I received Parnate and this pulled me out of this depression. BEfore Parnate, I had given up all hope and assumed it was just a matter of time until I would end up like my Mom.

The fact that i live in Costa Rica is another story. But I spend about 3 months of the year with friends and family in the U.S. My social support system in Costa Rica is in some ways much less meaningful than my support system in the US but I try to keep busy here, and I had a challenging job for many years, traveling in many Latin American and Caribbean countries.

Anyway, thanks for sharing about your life and congratulations on your success with your 3 sons.
Rick

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 10:19:24

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 6:29:17

Hi Scott: I think it's been Parnate Withdrawal!

Wow, I feel so much better today I can't believe it! I slept all night and woke up at 7:30am feeling pretty darn good except I am itching all over my whole body, especially my shoulders and head.
Your telling me my sleep is fine took a big load off my mind...Thanks!!
I think going down 20mg Parnate and 15mg nortrip (over half of my dose) all at once was just too much for my body (liver?).
I'm less "spacy", more clear headed and probably (though I hate to admit it) less likely to fall.
I have to carry my 17year old ShiTzu (bad back) down and up the back steps all the time and Colorado is still having that blizzard, so that's a challenge for both of us!
At this point I think maybe 60mg parnate is a good therapeutic dose for me. Maybe my pdoc saw more than he said at our appt.
I'm kind of shocked that coming down put me in such a tailspin. I did not expect that.
Thanks once again for all the support and information!! I don't know what I would do without you and the other PBers who have helped me so much getting on and sticking with Parnate, which has helped me more than any other drug I've ever taken!! I seem so med sensitive. Maybe it is my age and all those years of self medicating with scotch/dexedrine!
I think after the holidays are over I'll do some kind of liver cleanse.
I hope you are doing OK Scott. You're so giving, knowledgeable and such a good role model for keeping on keeping on. You really deserve a break soon with your meds!

Thanks so much,
Hugs,'
Gayle

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by SLS on December 8, 2009, at 10:34:53

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 10:19:24

> Hi Scott: I think it's been Parnate Withdrawal!
>
> Wow, I feel so much better today I can't believe it!


I'm glad I was wrong!


- Scott

 

Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » kirbyw

Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 11:47:48

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal?, posted by kirbyw on December 8, 2009, at 6:58:02

Hi Rick:
Thank you for sharing so openly! You have, indeed, been through so much!
It's always amazing to me how so many of us Treatment Resistant Depression people here are so incredibly intelligent, really well educated, exquisitely sensitive and dealing with terribly painful childhood issues.
Having one's mother commit suicide must be one of the worst things to have happen to you. My good friend and neighbor across the street (for 28 years) killed herself about 3-4 years ago. Her 2 children had just graduated from college. She and I took walks a lot over the years and shared about our depresssions, what meds we were on etc. She was never suicidal (I have been my entire life), but she was very active and got severe fibromyalgia, and that pushed her over the brink. She had a great husband who adored her and she, him, but once you met her parents you knew where it came from and she had a sister who had committed suicide, too. Anyway, I can't go into my livingroom or out my front door without seeing their house. He (husband/dad) is still there. It makes me so sad, and I have witnessed the daily disaster it has been to her husband and kids (and many friends!). It gives me a daily dose of reasons why, no matter WHAT, I must never never never do that to my sons and grandchildren. But I can understand how she and your mother felt, what pain and hopelessness they were in.
Parnate is the ONLY drug that has taken away much of my desire to kill myself. Thank God!
It sounds like you have made the best of things and had a very active, fun, successful and interesting life! And being gay in those early days especially was not a walk in the park I'm sure! Good for you!!
I'm glad you found Parnate so early on after your breakdown! and were able to move ahead and put a good life together for yourself!
I've noticed that turning 60 is a new challenge as the body starts to talk back! Aging gracefully is not for sissies! If your dad is going strong (and mean) at 88 you have a good chance of living that long! That's a daunting thought, at least for me!
I'm so lucky I have my sons. They like me and are very good to me (not like daughters!, but good for guys) and my little grandchildren. I don't think they like me being more emotionally dependent on them since my boyfriend and girlfriend died and I make a big effort not to be.
Everyone will be here for Christmas this year including a newborn! I am frazzled with all the work of getting my house ready for so much company, but keep telling myself how lucky I am. The 3 sons will take over when they come and do all the cooking/ dishes/ organization, everything!
They all like to cook and hang out in the kitchen and their buddies from growing up will come over. So that will be fun. I try to keep remembering how blessed I am. They all like it that I'm in the same house they all grew up in, even though it's falling down around my head.
I'm happy for you that you are close to your brother and have made "families of your choice" along the way. Sometimes those are the very best ones!! and a lot more healthy!
Are you going back to Costa Rica? or going to retire to Chicago? That sounds funny, doesn't it!
Thanks for sharing some of your story. I think it helps all of us to know we're not out there suffering and struggling alone. That there are others who DO understand what we go through, how we feel, and how tough simple things can be sometimes.

Best wishes and hugs,
Gayle

 

Re: Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2009, at 19:39:46

In reply to Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » kirbyw, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 11:47:48

Gayle tell me about the body after 60 seems to fall apart!!!! Love Phillipa

 

Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » SLS

Posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:09:03

In reply to Re: Scott, did I go through Parnate withdrawal? » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by SLS on December 7, 2009, at 22:46:15

Really? Interesting, in a good way. I'll have to think about this.

fb
> > Don't you NEED REM sleep to feel good and rested?
>
> No.
>
> Stage 4 delta wave sleep is the more important phase for restoration. Too much REM, which is seen in depression, can be counterproductive and leave one feeling less rested.
>
> Regarding hypotension, I found that the longer I was on Parnate, the less that dizziness was a problem. It took several months at the higher dosage to see it all but disappear. Everyone is different, though.
>
>
> - Scott

 

Re: Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » ColoradoSnowflake

Posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:20:58

In reply to Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » kirbyw, posted by ColoradoSnowflake on December 8, 2009, at 11:47:48

Gayle,

I'm so glad you are feeling better--and I hope that continues! Falling isn't really a good thing. And if you relapse, you know what to do.

I'm sorry you had such a rough time--and I'm sorry I'm late to your thread.

love and hugs,

fb

 

Re: Yes, Parnate withdrawal!

Posted by zana on December 9, 2009, at 16:22:51

In reply to Re: Yes, Parnate withdrawal! » ColoradoSnowflake, posted by floatingbridge on December 8, 2009, at 23:20:58

Gayle,
It is so great to read your posts. Even when you are down you manage to put so much life force into them. It is so clear that you are a fighter and have managed, dispite your depression to put a real, full life together for yourself. You are a great role model. I really admire you for your fight.
Hope things are continuing to go well,
Zana


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.