Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 920327

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something happens during sleep

Posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

I know I've said this before, but something happens to me early in the morning - some sort of biochemical shift that makes me depressed.

I usually wake up several times night. When I wake up at 1 or 2 I feel good - good dreams, feeling positive. I go back to sleep. I wake up at 5 or so, I still feel good. I go back to sleep.

Somewhere between 6 and 8 something bad happens. Its like a sinking horrible death feeling. Like my life is over. Sadness galore. I sometimes wake up in tears around this time. Thoughts of death, dying, etc are predominant.

If I happen to stay up at 6:00 things are ok, but I am usually a little wired throughout the day. But if I get that extra 2 hours of sleep I usually spend half the day really low.

I don't know what happens during this time, but its like some death chemical gets released. I have been experimenting with taking a lower dose of ritalin around 6. Not enough to keep me awake though.

I think there is some sort of cholinergic activation that is happening around this time.
Whatever it is, its no fun.

I know some people with depression wake up early and can't get back to sleep. I am wondering if this is some sort of adaptive mechanism to try and prevent a biochemical shift during this period.


Linkadge

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2009, at 21:44:52

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

Link dead serious same thing happens to me but later morning. I attributed it to taking the synthroid? Bed at 3am up for synthroid around 6-7 then sleep till l0-11? Strange. Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:52:12

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

I was reading this article which suggests that
morning naps have a greater tendency to cause depressive relaspe than afternoon naps.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/154/6/870.pdf

Interesting reading

Linkadge

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by Phillipa on October 9, 2009, at 21:55:35

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:52:12

Can't read too tiny. But keep telling Greg we've got to go to bed earlier do the ebay posting earlier and then get up by 9 at the latest. So far no dice. Would be nice to have more daylight. Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by NKP on October 10, 2009, at 3:10:33

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

If I get as much sleep as I want, I get depressed. I seem to do well when I get about 2 hours less sleep a night than what I would ideally want in terms of feeling rested.

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by metafunj on October 10, 2009, at 9:05:03

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

I believe cortisol is released early in the morning. Maybe too much is being released?

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by TenMan on October 10, 2009, at 11:18:36

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

> I know some people with depression wake up early and can't get back to sleep. I am wondering if this is some sort of adaptive mechanism to try and prevent a biochemical shift during this period.


You've touched on a question I've been trying to understand as well. I know that whenever I am depressed, I tend to sleep 8-9 hours and never voluntarily awaken in the early morning. Conversely, when I achieve an antidepressant response to whatever I am taking I consistently need only around 6 hours of sleep and I ALWAYS awaken between the hours of 5 and 6 AM ready to go.

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by linkadge on October 10, 2009, at 14:53:17

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by TenMan on October 10, 2009, at 11:18:36

What I am thinking is that there is some sort of biochemical shift that happens during this period. I am wondering if I can't wake myself up early with an alarm, and then take something (short acting) at this point which will attack that biochemical shift while letting me get the extra 2 hours that (I think) I need.

Linkadge

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by bleauberry on October 10, 2009, at 18:36:13

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

Yeah Link, I am all too familiar with this phenomenon you described and I bet a lot of others are too.

Possible explanations that I have heard:

1. Cortisol...doing the wrong things at the wrong times. An Adrenal Stress Index test by Diagnostechs would show what is happening there. Treatment then involves experimentation with things like Licorice, Adrernal Cortex Extract, Phosphatydlserine, Tyrosine, Siberian Ginseng, Cordyceps, or Hydrocortisone (some of these things support, some suppress, some modulate). Hydrocortisone partially worked, Milnacipran partially worked, but miniscule amounts of Parnate did very well.

2. An unsuspected infectious agent. They follow daily schedules in their patterns. And the immune system responds accordingly. If this kind of tug-of-war is going on, it messes with everything...immune, hormones, neurotransmitters, inflammation, circulation, brain, everything...so all that stuff is caught up in a repetitive self-perpetuating cycle that is accurate as clockwork and somehow tied into the late stage of sleep.

You know how most people who take Tyrosine take it during the day? I have heard some people take it at bedtime to correct that morning badness.

There's no telling what's going on. With pretty much everyone at pbabble, I think it is safe to say there is a lot more going on under their skin than they are aware of, and the outward depression is probably just a hint of it. The morning badness stuff is another hint.

In the zillion different things I've tried...supplements, herbs, meds...probably the best thing that ever removed that lousy feeling during a very narrow window the morning was a miniscule amount of Parnate taken once every two days. How or why it worked on that particular symtpom I have no clue.

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by Maxime on October 10, 2009, at 18:37:50

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

I know that I am not spelling it right, but there is something called the "Bunny" switch (named after a Dr. Bunny) that can go off in the night making you wake up not-depressed, or depressed ... the opposite to how you were feeling when you went to bed the night before. Maybe that's what is happening to you.

 

Re: something happens during sleep » Maxime

Posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 19:01:10

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge, posted by Maxime on October 10, 2009, at 18:37:50

Maxie you serious as that would explain a lot. No google on Bunny Switch? Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by floatingbridge on October 11, 2009, at 15:09:02

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

Hi Link,

Chinese medicine addresses this--though I am only a patient, not a practitioner. Let's see. My practitioner has told me that sleep received before 11:00 p.m. is golden sleep, and no other sleep makes up for that. In addition, Chinese medicine has a 'clock' that correlates each time of day to different organs and physical functions. I know, I sound vague and esoteric. (I am vague!)

Can you go to sleep earlier and wake up when, it seems to me, that your body is ready to go? It has helped me with a similar problem to yours,

best,

fb

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by Maxime on October 11, 2009, at 15:39:34

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on October 10, 2009, at 19:01:10

> Maxie you serious as that would explain a lot. No google on Bunny Switch? Phillipa

I'm probably not spelling it right. It sounds like "Bunny" when he says it. My pdoc is 87 years old and knows a lot things that most don't. I should email him and ask him how to spell it. :-)

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by psych chat on October 11, 2009, at 18:24:18

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

Here's a convenient synthesis of some sleep articles related to mental health issues:

http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.sleepdep.html

I recall reading that sleep undergoes 2 phases, lasting approximately 4 hours each cycle. You may be only sleeping one cycle rather than 2. Sorry I can't expand upon this, but from what I remember, hormonal differences account for whether you sleep the 2 phases and there is a delineation among sleep problems such as early rise (after 1 cycle) and delayed sleep syndrome where a person cannot go to sleep until very late.

 

Re: something happens during sleep » Maxime

Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2009, at 19:47:45

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by Maxime on October 11, 2009, at 15:39:34

Wow he must be in great shape to still be practicing. What an inspiration. Yes see. Love Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep » floatingbridge

Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2009, at 19:49:10

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge, posted by floatingbridge on October 11, 2009, at 15:09:02

Fb and I'm eating dinner at l0pm and want to go earlier also. Circumstances prevent got to fix it. Love Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep » psych chat

Posted by Phillipa on October 11, 2009, at 19:59:16

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by psych chat on October 11, 2009, at 18:24:18

I got the late bedtime one so what's it mean? Love Phillipa

 

Re: something happens during sleep

Posted by alchemy on October 11, 2009, at 20:31:20

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

No answers but I have often had circadian rhythm stupid stuff.
- I went through a time when I had extreme anxiety after stopping a med trial. And no matter what time I went to bed, I would wake up with extreme anxiety at 5:30. (my cortisol was normal)
- During another phase I would initially wake up w/ depression that eased up as I began to wake up more.
- And of course there are the phases I've had where I'm more depressed in the am and it gets better during the day and right now it's vice versa.
- For a non-circadian thing but a sleep thing, I also went through a phase were even though I was tired I would try not to take a nap because I would wake up more depressed.

I wish we were advanced enough medically to know what the heck is going on. I am also 10x more sensitive to the food I eat in the morning.

 

Re: something happens during sleep - linkadge

Posted by rovers95 on October 12, 2009, at 14:09:40

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by alchemy on October 11, 2009, at 20:31:20

How strange to read this post as I was considering posting the exact same thing, i too experience this horrible waking feeling and it has been at its worst when i withdrew from cigarettes and scopolamine which also makes me feel its pro-cholinergic.

For some reson paraceatomol slightly helps this restlessness for me (perhaps it just settles my body temp).

Rover

 

Re: something happens during sleep - linkadge

Posted by linkadge on October 12, 2009, at 14:43:24

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep - linkadge, posted by rovers95 on October 12, 2009, at 14:09:40

yeah, still not sure. When I restrict that last 2 hours of sleep I feel markedly better. Its like my mind is faster to think of things to do. I am also faster to just start things without having to really force myself into it.

The last 2 hours is hard, because if I wake up at 6, my body *really* wants to get that last 2 hours. I am experimenting with just a teeny dose of ritalin to turn the brainstem on at this point and perhaps shift the type of sleep that occurs.

My guess is that there is some sort of switch that happens during these two hours. If an organism is stressed it will wake up early and have energy to deal with stressors. If sleep is complete, the body releases a "depression" chemical to try and ground the organism behaviorally and psychologically. When feeling "down" the organism is more likely to reduce energy expendurture and reassess its situation.

or something...

Linkadge

 

Re: something happens during sleep - linkadge » linkadge

Posted by cactus on October 12, 2009, at 20:13:37

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep - linkadge, posted by linkadge on October 12, 2009, at 14:43:24

I haven't read all the posts sorry, but I do know that your liver flushes toxins out at 4AM. That's when I usually wake up and can't get back to sleep. This is widely followed by eastern traditional medicine. I have no idea if western medicine acknowledges it.

I also have no idea if some gets back into your blood stream, I'm assuming it does because I have the same problem too. The rest is supposed to go onto your kidneys and or colon to be excreted from your body.

I'm off to look into that more right now. C

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by yxibow on October 16, 2009, at 1:40:25

In reply to Re: something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:52:12

> I was reading this article which suggests that
> morning naps have a greater tendency to cause depressive relaspe than afternoon naps.
>
> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/154/6/870.pdf
>
> Interesting reading
>
> Linkadge

Yeah... sleep deprivation is wonderful... the first 2 days... then psychosis can set in...

 

Re: something happens during sleep » linkadge

Posted by yxibow on October 16, 2009, at 1:45:59

In reply to something happens during sleep, posted by linkadge on October 9, 2009, at 21:30:31

> I know I've said this before, but something happens to me early in the morning - some sort of biochemical shift that makes me depressed.
>
> I usually wake up several times night. When I wake up at 1 or 2 I feel good - good dreams, feeling positive. I go back to sleep. I wake up at 5 or so, I still feel good. I go back to sleep.
>
> Somewhere between 6 and 8 something bad happens. Its like a sinking horrible death feeling. Like my life is over. Sadness galore. I sometimes wake up in tears around this time. Thoughts of death, dying, etc are predominant.

I haven't felt this --- I'm sorry you're feeling so poorly at this hour.

Besides all the bodily factors possibly mentioned, have you ever been able to remember and record a dream that happened before this time?

Is there any other time that you've ever felt this way?


> If I happen to stay up at 6:00 things are ok, but I am usually a little wired throughout the day. But if I get that extra 2 hours of sleep I usually spend half the day really low.
>
> I don't know what happens during this time, but its like some death chemical gets released. I have been experimenting with taking a lower dose of ritalin around 6. Not enough to keep me awake though.
>
> I think there is some sort of cholinergic activation that is happening around this time.
> Whatever it is, its no fun.
>
> I know some people with depression wake up early and can't get back to sleep. I am wondering if this is some sort of adaptive mechanism to try and prevent a biochemical shift during this period.


Thought about a sleep study ?

I dunno... I get into a pattern of being unable to stay awake after waking up -- I end up napping /sleeping again for some hours.

Can't really say that there's depression going on there, some of it is probably when I go to bed and when I take the Seroquel... some I don't know.


Waiting to see the results of my recent sleep study.

- tidings


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