Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 913299

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Brand new to group

Posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

My name is Treg, and I'm 65. I've been on some kind of psychotropic medications almost continuously since I was 18 for very refractory, hard-to-treat major depression with psychotic features.. I was on Cymbalta when Hurricane Katrina washed away everything I owned, and I didn't even care. I was unasble to grieve and mourn. Now I am taking 20 mg of Prozac and find that I've become extremely apathetic. I don't do anything except what's absolutely necessary. My once active mind is now innocent of any ideas or thoughts. I have nothing to say to anyone. Is the Prozac causing this? Is this common?

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 7:58:14

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

SSRI's are notorius for making you apathetic and lazy. prozac is supposed to one of the more activating drugs, but it still an SSRI. So yes Prozac could be doing this.

 

Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark

Posted by SLS on August 21, 2009, at 8:08:04

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 7:58:14

> SSRI's are notorius for making you apathetic and lazy. prozac is supposed to one of the more activating drugs, but it still an SSRI. So yes Prozac could be doing this.

Can you think of any way to remedy SSRI apathy?

I'm wondering if using Wellbutrin or nortriptyline might help.


- Scott

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by polarbear206 on August 21, 2009, at 9:59:26

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

> My name is Treg, and I'm 65. I've been on some kind of psychotropic medications almost continuously since I was 18 for very refractory, hard-to-treat major depression with psychotic features.. I was on Cymbalta when Hurricane Katrina washed away everything I owned, and I didn't even care. I was unasble to grieve and mourn. Now I am taking 20 mg of Prozac and find that I've become extremely apathetic. I don't do anything except what's absolutely necessary. My once active mind is now innocent of any ideas or thoughts. I have nothing to say to anyone. Is the Prozac causing this? Is this common?

Can you give us a little more info on the drugs you took in the past? Have you ever tried a mood stabilizer to augment an AD? Any combos of ssri/tricyclic? MAOI's? SNRI's?

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 10:32:10

In reply to Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 21, 2009, at 8:08:04

> > SSRI's are notorius for making you apathetic and lazy. prozac is supposed to one of the more activating drugs, but it still an SSRI. So yes Prozac could be doing this.
>
> Can you think of any way to remedy SSRI apathy?
>
> I'm wondering if using Wellbutrin or nortriptyline might help.
>
>
> - Scott

Hi Scott, you are the expert, but I think anything argumenting with something that siginicantly increases NE and DA can help combat this.

Personally If it was me, I'd ditch the SSRI and look into a different regime. IMO, apathy and the rest is bad for the soul and you might too late realise how little you done in the that time and how many friends you've lost contact to.

I wish we had more avaible and cleaner NE & DA meds.

 

Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark

Posted by SLS on August 21, 2009, at 11:04:17

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 10:32:10

> Personally If it was me, I'd ditch the SSRI and look into a different regime. IMO, apathy and the rest is bad for the soul and you might too late realise how little you done in the that time and how many friends you've lost contact to.
>
> I wish we had more avaible and cleaner NE & DA meds.

We definitely need a drug that inhibits the reuptake of dopamine without releasing it in those critical areas of the brain that relate to depression. Nomifensine (Merital) was one such drug. There are people who are still looking for a drug that works as well for them as did nomifensine. Unfortunately, it was taken off the market when reports of hemolytic anemia appeared. Although it was a rare occurrence, it was enough to spook the manufacturer (then Hoechst Roussel) to remove it voluntarily.

I'll be curious to see how the triple reuptake inhibitors in the pipeline affect people. Will they cause apathy, too? Hopefully, we'll get the chance to find out.


- Scott

 

Re: Brand new to group Tregonissey

Posted by Maxime on August 21, 2009, at 11:34:18

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

I'm sorry for everything you have been through.

Prozac made me very apathetic. It was awful. I added Wellbutrin to the mix and it helped a bit.

What other meds have you been on in the past? Have you ever tried an MAOI?

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 11:54:24

In reply to Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 21, 2009, at 11:04:17

> > Personally If it was me, I'd ditch the SSRI and look into a different regime. IMO, apathy and the rest is bad for the soul and you might too late realise how little you done in the that time and how many friends you've lost contact to.
> >
> > I wish we had more avaible and cleaner NE & DA meds.
>
> We definitely need a drug that inhibits the reuptake of dopamine without releasing it in those critical areas of the brain that relate to depression. Nomifensine (Merital) was one such drug. There are people who are still looking for a drug that works as well for them as did nomifensine. Unfortunately, it was taken off the market when reports of hemolytic anemia appeared. Although it was a rare occurrence, it was enough to spook the manufacturer (then Hoechst Roussel) to remove it voluntarily.
>
> I'll be curious to see how the triple reuptake inhibitors in the pipeline affect people. Will they cause apathy, too? Hopefully, we'll get the chance to find out.
>
>
> - Scott

God if I had the energy to do it, I would seriously kill the people who keep outlawing the drugs that work. Nomifensine and then Aminepine(srry speeling), I swear that these people outlaw any drugs that actually work and brighten mood without all the crappy side effects. SSRI's are the greatest marketing scam in history. People in power won't allow NA OR DA drugs cause they actually work. We can't have people feeling too good. Let's turn them into zombies instead.

 

Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark

Posted by Phillipa on August 21, 2009, at 12:16:55

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 11:54:24

Reminds me of what they say about the cancer drugs and there are cures but then money lost. Phillipa

 

Re: Brand new to group Tregonissey

Posted by Phillipa on August 21, 2009, at 12:22:19

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

Let me welcome you to babble. We're about the same age and I can relate with a lot of what you say. Sometimes I think the brain gets tired like the body as we age. Some sort of protective devise to shield us from past loses and hurts. I don't know about meds. Me myself havent had a lot of luck with them. So have any really worked for you in the past. And as we age different factors affect our choices of meds cardiac, blood pressure any other meds the body now requires. And lower doses as age. Why not turn your babble mail on. I'm so sorry about your loses it must have been a horrible shock to your mind and thoughts. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by bleauberry on August 21, 2009, at 19:42:03

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

Welcome! Sorry you're here, but very glad as well!

For elderly people, I think 65 qualifies as the lower end of that range, you know what some of the best antidepressants are? Stimulants.

Here are some suggestions:
1. Wean off prozac, endure a month with nothing, then start Parnate.
2. Add to prozac Ritalin (brand to start, not generic)
3. Add to prozac Adderall XR brand.
4. Try 200mg to 400mg per day of the supplement Tyrosine, divided into 3 doses (you will have to empty a capsule and make your own custom doses with empty gel caps, or split pills) Though you may feel hints of energy at first, or maybe nothing, it will take a full month to see changes happening.
5. Try 100mg to 200mg per day of the supplement DL-Phenylalanine. A month as will be needed to see changes.

Internet hype suggests vastly higher doses of DLPA or Tyrosine, but clinical studies used the doses I quoted above. Those studies are several decades old, but the results were very good. Even accounting for perhaps poorer study control than these days, there is significant potential.

All of the above suggestions have one thing in mind...boosting the function of the other neurotransmitters (norepinephrine and dopamine)that Prozac is squashing. Prozac actually does increase both norepinephrine and dopamine, but its effects on increasing serotonin are so much stronger.

There is a common thing that happens when serotonin at the synapse is increased longterm by drugs. It somehow diminishes the function of norepineprhine and dopamine. Drowns them out. While all of the neurotransmitters are to mood, serotonin is primarily relaxing, calming (everything is ok, who cares), while norepinephrine and dopamine are tied to motivation, pleasure, and energy.

The apathetic syndrome you describe is rather common amongst longterm antidepressant users, primarily because most antidepressants work primarily only on serotonin.

Parnate works on all three equally.

Ritalin or Adderall or Tyrosine or DLPA work on the others, to add balance to what prozac is doing. A friend of mine was doing ok on prozac, but compained of being tired, uncaring, apathetic, unmotivated, couldn't get anything done. She was prescribed AdderallXR and was practically cured that very day. It worked perfectly with the Prozac.

All meds have downfalls. With Adderall and Ritalin the downfall is tolerance...needing a higher dose over time. But some people do stabilize at a certain dose for many years. There have been hints in clinical studies, and a couple anecdotal reports here, that the med Memantine prevented and reversed stimulant or opioid tolerance.

Someone might think that since Cymbalta works on both serotonin and norepinephrine, the apathy thing wouldn't happen. Until they learn that with Cymbalta the ratio of serotonin to norepinephrine is 9:1. Not anywhere close to equal. Mostly serotonin. Effexor is even worse at 30:1.

Just some ideas. Too much serotonin going on. That's where the apathy is coming from.

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by morganator on August 21, 2009, at 19:55:10

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by bleauberry on August 21, 2009, at 19:42:03

What about changing the dose? Upping the dose? Adding wellbutrin?? Or did someone already suggest wellbutrin?

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by morganator on August 21, 2009, at 19:59:46

In reply to Re: Brand new to group Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 21, 2009, at 11:04:17

>I'll be curious to see how the triple reuptake inhibitors in the pipeline affect people. Will they cause apathy, too? Hopefully, we'll get the chance to find out.

Do you have any idea when these drugs might be available? I don't think they are even in the first trial phases, meaning it's going to be a while huh.

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by Sigismund on August 22, 2009, at 1:45:41

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

>Hurricane Katrina washed away everything I owned, and I didn't even care. I was unasble to grieve and mourn. Now I am taking 20 mg of Prozac and find that I've become extremely apathetic. I don't do anything except what's absolutely necessary. My once active mind is now innocent of any ideas or thoughts. I have nothing to say to anyone.

It depends how you feel about it perhaps? I have a friend on Prozac who says exactly what you have said. More or less: I just don't care, I'm waiting to die. It's amazing when people get a morphine script...they start bailing you up in the supermarket wanting to chat, which is one of the reasons I don't worry about cancer. My friend was never impressed. She just said she couldn't be bothered with that either.

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by SLS on August 22, 2009, at 5:42:32

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by morganator on August 21, 2009, at 19:59:46

> >I'll be curious to see how the triple reuptake inhibitors in the pipeline affect people. Will they cause apathy, too? Hopefully, we'll get the chance to find out.
>
> Do you have any idea when these drugs might be available? I don't think they are even in the first trial phases, meaning it's going to be a while huh.

This is a nice webpage to get an idea as to what psychotropic drugs are in the pipeline:

http://www.neurotransmitter.net/newdrugs.html

Sepracor is in the process of clinical trials of a triple reuptake inhibitor.


- Scott

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by SLS on August 22, 2009, at 5:53:15

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 21, 2009, at 11:54:24

> God if I had the energy to do it, I would seriously kill the people who keep outlawing the drugs that work. Nomifensine and then Aminepine(srry speeling), I swear that these people outlaw any drugs that actually work and brighten mood without all the crappy side effects. SSRI's are the greatest marketing scam in history. People in power won't allow NA OR DA drugs cause they actually work. We can't have people feeling too good. Let's turn them into zombies instead.

I think the manufacturer of amineptine (Survector), Servier, was under pressure from several sources to withdraw it, including the Olympic Committee. Athletes were using amineptine as a performance enhancer until it was banned. That was probably an important factor that led to the drugs's demise. For years prior, it had been the subject of substance abuse allegations. It's too bad that the behavior of so few can be to the detriment of so many.


- Scott

 

Re: Brand new to group

Posted by bulldog2 on August 22, 2009, at 18:01:31

In reply to Brand new to group, posted by Tregonissey on August 21, 2009, at 7:39:48

> My name is Treg, and I'm 65. I've been on some kind of psychotropic medications almost continuously since I was 18 for very refractory, hard-to-treat major depression with psychotic features.. I was on Cymbalta when Hurricane Katrina washed away everything I owned, and I didn't even care. I was unasble to grieve and mourn. Now I am taking 20 mg of Prozac and find that I've become extremely apathetic. I don't do anything except what's absolutely necessary. My once active mind is now innocent of any ideas or thoughts. I have nothing to say to anyone. Is the Prozac causing this? Is this common?

It has been suggested that the ssris lower dopamine and cause apathy. Perhaps the combinatin of an ssri plus a dopamine agonist such as miraprex might be beneficial.

 

Re: Brand new to group SLS

Posted by bulldog2 on August 22, 2009, at 18:19:12

In reply to Re: Brand new to group, posted by SLS on August 22, 2009, at 5:53:15

> > God if I had the energy to do it, I would seriously kill the people who keep outlawing the drugs that work. Nomifensine and then Aminepine(srry speeling), I swear that these people outlaw any drugs that actually work and brighten mood without all the crappy side effects. SSRI's are the greatest marketing scam in history. People in power won't allow NA OR DA drugs cause they actually work. We can't have people feeling too good. Let's turn them into zombies instead.
>
> I think the manufacturer of amineptine (Survector), Servier, was under pressure from several sources to withdraw it, including the Olympic Committee. Athletes were using amineptine as a performance enhancer until it was banned. That was probably an important factor that led to the drugs's demise. For years prior, it had been the subject of substance abuse allegations. It's too bad that the behavior of so few can be to the detriment of so many.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>

The reality of ssris is that actually function like the older anti psychotics. The means of action is different but the end result is similar. The ap's block dopamine and the ssris ultimately reduce dopamine which brings on a host of bad side effects.

The only plus for the ssris appears to be they are safer in overdose so doctors can hand them out like candy.

on the other hand they are only successful in mild to moderate depression. Not really useful in major depression.

They neuter both men and women and creat apathy. Dopamine is an important player in happiness.

Psychotropic drugs are produced by people who follow the puritanical rules of life. Make people functional enough to work but we don't want people experiencing joy or able to think for themselves.

ssris are a joke. Useful for minor depression. I read that men often don't follow through on ssri treatment because of the neutering effect.
Family physicians are generally so ignorant of how psychotropic drugs work they just hand out drugs the pharm salesman has told them about.


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