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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 2:49:50
POLY AMINE SYSTEM
look at this paper, fulltext at http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2265312
very interesting, i had seen some of this before but seeing the first chart really puts things easy to understand. Substrates are ornithine and agmatine. agmatine is described in the paper, but it looks like it has anxiolytic and antidepressant effects. and, phenelzine increases ornithine levels in the brain. Also, i think maois decrease SAMe levels, and there are some amine oxidases besides mao that some maois inhibit, not sure if any inhibit polyamine oxidase. ALSo, monoamine oxidase is a ligand for imidazoline 2 receptors, and agmatine binds to i1 receptors, like clonidine, which potentiates MAOI antidepressant effect, through not entirely clarified means...puzzles. also look at these;Influence of SAMe on the modifications of brain polyamine levels in an animal model of depression
Genedani, SusannaCA; Saltini, Sabrina; Benelli, Augusta; Filaferro, Monica; Bertolini, Alfio
Received 28 September 2001; accepted 9 October 2001
Abstract
The mechanism(s) of the antidepressant activity of S-adenosyl-l-methionine (SAMe) have not yet been elucidated. SAMe is essential for the synthesis of polyamines, which have a key role in protein synthesis, cell proliferation, and neuronal plasticity. On the other hand, accumulating data indicate that depression is associated with a reduction in regional brain volume and that antidepressants increase neurogenesis in defined brain regions and also influence neuronal plasticity. Here we show that in a validated rat model of depression (chronic unpredictable mild stress-induced anhedonia) there is a significant reduction of putrescine, spermidine and spermine in the hippocampus, and of only putrescine in the nucleus accumbens septi. SAMe, at a fully antidepressant dose (300 mg/kg i.m., daily for 7 days), completely restores the levels of putrescine in the nucleus accumbens, and restores in part the levels of both spermidine and spermine in the hippocampus. These results may suggest (i) a role for brain polyamines in depression and in reward processes, and (ii) that the antidepressant effect of SAMe may be due, at least in part, to a normalization of putrescine levels in the nucleus accumbens septi.other ideas for how SAMe works: increases monoamine synthesis, or restoring phospholipid methylation which improves g protein-coupled recoptor coupling & density.
and if SAMe is too expensive, remember most goes to production of creatine, so methylators like methylcobalimin and methylfolate and TMG, plus creatine, are a cheap substitute which may work.
Posted by garnet71 on March 31, 2009, at 12:15:54
In reply to POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE!, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 2:49:50
Can someone please translate this so the rest of us can understand it? lol
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 12:31:36
In reply to Re: POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE! » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 31, 2009, at 12:15:54
Garnet just called my husband in said what am I supposed to think of this as what does it mean? He said "means nothing I can understand". Somehow I think it relates to SAMe and MAOI's and then alternative like supplements? If d/r interprets we'll see how wrong I am. Phillipa ps at least I'm not the only one!!!!
Posted by myco on March 31, 2009, at 13:20:13
In reply to POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE!, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 2:49:50
Awesome post d/r....great selection for a study.
I'll read the studies here and try to give a simple to understand explaination lol...i'm a newbie though but this one is not overly difficult.
Posted by myco on March 31, 2009, at 17:28:19
In reply to POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE!, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 2:49:50
Do you need full text of any of these studies (including on in above thread) d/r?
I'm reading them now
Posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 22:48:18
In reply to Re: POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE! » garnet71, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2009, at 12:31:36
oh well it might be that agmatine or SAMe, which are both ADs with varying amounts of evidence, might be working on this system, might be good together if one is refractory to either one, and might be good especially with non-phenelzine maois as a 'no system left behind' approach. Polyamine system is not very well understood.
-d/r
Posted by myco on March 31, 2009, at 22:52:36
In reply to Re: POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE!, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 22:48:18
Agmatine is shown to potentiate MAOI effect and Agmatines precursor is L-Arginine (a sup I have here). Any possibility you could think of that adding that sup would potentiate Nardil? I'm curious here.
> oh well it might be that agmatine or SAMe, which are both ADs with varying amounts of evidence, might be working on this system, might be good together if one is refractory to either one, and might be good especially with non-phenelzine maois as a 'no system left behind' approach. Polyamine system is not very well understood.
>
> -d/r
Posted by garnet71 on March 31, 2009, at 23:10:13
In reply to Re: POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE! » desolationrower, posted by myco on March 31, 2009, at 13:20:13
"I'll read the studies here and try to give a simple to understand explaination lol...i'm a newbie though but this one is not overly difficult."
Good-then why don't you summarize it for us? I have no room in my brain right now for that kind of vocabulary.
We'll be waiting for your essay. Half a letter grade deducted for each day you are late...you are already at an A minus.
Posted by mogger on June 6, 2009, at 14:36:26
In reply to POLYAMINE system, MAOIs, SAMe, AGMATINE!, posted by desolationrower on March 31, 2009, at 2:49:50
I am going to try agmatine supplement but am a little worried as I take zoloft, buspar, mirtazapine and am a little confused. Does agmatine create an MAOI effect therefore possibly causing serotonin syndrome with my other meds? Sorry, I have no idea about the specifics but was wondering if anyone knew how to put it into plain english! Many thanks,
mogger
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