Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 885656

Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:26:51

I have anxiety and ADD-inattentive type. It take Buspar 15 mg x 2 and Xanax .25 mg at night. I've had no anxiety symptoms for over a month and don't feel depressed or sad.

So I quit Ritalin 20 mg x 2 a few days ago and started taking Wellbutrin SR 150 mg x 1 just 2 days ago. The Wellbutrin seems to have barely started to work (I know, I know its only been 3 days), but I'm feeling more irritable and unmotivated than before I took the Wellbutrin w/o the Ritalin.

I have about 10 doses of Ritalin left over from the last script so I called my PDocRN to ask her if it was okay if I tried them with the Wellbutrin till it kicks in (if it even does). She said it would be ok as long as my heart doesn't race or anything like that.

I'm so overwhelmend and behind in my deadline and can't seem to get stuff done-it seems like there's holes in time each day--like 8 hours of my day just disappear and I think-where did the time go? So I took a Ritalin today--again, it only lasted about 2 hrs., now my head feels fuzzy again and I feel yucky like before I took it.

So I was a reading part of an ADD/ADHD a book on Google books which said one type of ADD med is not dependent upon the brain's dopamine availability as much as the other. One ADD med facilitates an increased production of dopamine and blocks uptake while the other just more or less blocks it/keeps it where its needed but doesn't aid production.

I feel like my brain doesn't make enough dopamine or something. I don't know how else to explain it. Zoloft/Prozac seemed to make my dopamine levels hit bottom, though I quit taking them a couple of months ago after feeling miserable because they have been prescribed to me off/on for 3 years. They made me depressed and miserable and unmotivated, alhtough they worked for the anxiety--all of them did. Any advice on the dopamine issue or ADD meds?

It seems I should give Adderall a try, but PDocRN didn't mention it and I don't know if its okay to ask for a med like that. Is it really much different from Ritalin? What if I was prescribed a small dose--like a third of what people start at just to see? Has anyone tried both?

page 253

http://books.google.com/books?id=lLHWuSekLwUC&dq=thomas+brown+attention+deficit+disorder&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=-du-SaKBBIOItgf1l_z3Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA253,M1

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:30:32

In reply to ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:26:51

I also heard Adderall gives people anxiety. If I don't get anxiety from Ritalin, would it make sense that I wouldn't get anxiety from Adderall either?

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » Garnet71

Posted by Neal on March 16, 2009, at 22:01:03

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:30:32

Garnet71,

You might check my post 4 threads earlier. It might be worth a try in that you'll know if it's doing anything for you within a day or two. It's also available OTC in the US, so doesn't cost much. Go very easy with the dosage. If you're taking too much, you'll know, because you'll get irritable. Just an idea . . .

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » Neal

Posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 23:41:30

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » Garnet71, posted by Neal on March 16, 2009, at 22:01:03

Thanks for posting that Neal-I read the article about DHEA. For me right now, however, I can't risk experimentation. I have to finish my UG degree, and resume an intense summer semester of grad school and get back to work and I'm on the verge of losing my home and going bankrupt, lost my health insurance, and my car estimate for inspection was $2000. I don't think I can hang in there long enough to venture into alterntive world.

On the bright side, I went for a vigorous walk tonight to get back into a regular exercise routine.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by garnet71 on March 17, 2009, at 0:01:24

In reply to ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:26:51

Well here's an interesting resource for anyone who might be interested:

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/medications.htm#Second

It's the first I've seen that lists Buspirone as a potential ADD/ADHD treatment med.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by desolationrower on March 17, 2009, at 2:45:51

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by garnet71 on March 17, 2009, at 0:01:24

hm, well ok. i do think different meds can be helpful. methylphenidate is the reuptake inhibitor, btw. AMP is the catecholemine releaser (also blocks uptake). Two things to know about catecholamine activity though is that there is both phasic, and tonic. for dopamine there is low level amount that interacts with d2 autoreceptors. the locus correuleous has tonic and phasic firing (mostly NA neurons) and generally tonic levles, the high is more energy/awake vs sleep. phasic bursts are what give attention to things as important. I forget the exact relevance of DA activity, there have been various mathematical signal processing models, i do'nt think theres really a consensus. One thing i've seen is that overactivity in the striatum of DA phasically can cause impulsiveness, but also that underactivity prevents proper maintnence of long-term goal, and then allows for increased distractability. otoh inattention, inhibition and social anxiety have sometimes shown the opposite, so there isn't a clear role for DA worked out yet i don't think. Ok, the second thing to know is that there isa lot of interaction in these systems, and location or even timing can have big effects. so moderate levels of NA in the frontal cortex agonize the postynaptic alpha2 adrenoceptors, and increase focus. less NA, no focus, but too much NA, alpha1 and beta adrenoceptors are ativated, and you get distracted, and pfc inhibition fails and pfc loses control->this is happening when you stress out and can't think straight. SO then pfc attentional networks are important for control of lower regions, as NA & DA in the pfc affect da release in the limbic regions. frontal NA is also important for maintaining DA in lower levels in the 'response' portion to stress, once NA drops in cortex it cascades into feeling of hopelessness & 'give up'.

-d/r

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 17, 2009, at 8:40:58

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by desolationrower on March 17, 2009, at 2:45:51

Thanks D/R - except I'm going to have to read that 10 times to know what you just said. lol

Something I read about ADD last night (that I could easily understand lol) really interested me so I have to write it.

The difference between ADD and ADHD. Actually, I've never read anything about different neurotransmitter effects from meds between ADD or ADHD symptoms, but I'm guessing that might be relevant. Both my son and I are ADDers. When I was reading about ADD/ADHD symptoms, I noticed all the symptoms I did not have, mostly the "H" in ADHD, my son had. WHile we had some overlapping symptoms, this is why in all these years I would never have thought I had ADD even though my son was diagnosed years ago. My son is right handed and I'm left handed. When I read the lists of symptoms, it was apparent that my son and I combined are the entire spectrum of the ADD/ADHD disorder.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by desolationrower on March 17, 2009, at 14:22:39

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 17, 2009, at 8:40:58

> Thanks D/R - except I'm going to have to read that 10 times to know what you just said. lol

youre a quick study for someone with add?

> Something I read about ADD last night (that I could easily understand lol) really interested me so I have to write it.
>
> The difference between ADD and ADHD. Actually, I've never read anything about different neurotransmitter effects from meds between ADD or ADHD symptoms, but I'm guessing that might be relevant. Both my son and I are ADDers. When I was reading about ADD/ADHD symptoms, I noticed all the symptoms I did not have, mostly the "H" in ADHD, my son had. WHile we had some overlapping symptoms, this is why in all these years I would never have thought I had ADD even though my son was diagnosed years ago. My son is right handed and I'm left handed. When I read the lists of symptoms, it was apparent that my son and I combined are the entire spectrum of the ADD/ADHD disorder.

hm. the hyperactivity seems to decline into adulthood. not too much study on what the differences are, almost all of the study is on gradeschool age white boys. the handedness thing is interesting, in southpaws some brainfuctions are switched, and some are sort of half-way and divided equally between hemispheres, and some aren't. i wonder if it could cause mood improvement for lefthanders to use their right side much more, using right hand for most activities. i haven't thought about it too much, but it could be connected

Hemispheric Functioning in Children With Subtypes of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
Objective: The authors investigated line bisection performance in children with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (AD/HD) subtypes. Previous research with neurotypical children found a rightward bias with right-hand use and a leftward bias with left-hand use; however, research with AD/HD participants has failed to similarly measure the effects of hand use, which was the focus of this study. Method: Line bisection was used to measure differences in right hemisphere functioning in children (7 to 12 years) with AD/HD-I and AD/HD-C. Results: Initial AD/HD group findings (without subtype differentiation) replicated previous research. However, further subtype analyses showed that the ADHD-I and ADHD-C groups perform significantly differently. Specifically, the ADHD-I group showed a leftward bias, irrespective of hand use, and the ADHD-C group showed a rightward bias, irrespective of hand use. Conclusion: These findings suggest that the subtypes represent two distinct disorders and that, unlike ADHD-C, ADHD-I may not be the result of right hemisphere dysfunction.

look into it and tell me what the answer is? ok. :)

-d/r

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 19, 2009, at 10:10:48

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by desolationrower on March 17, 2009, at 2:45:51

Hi d/r! Does this say that the difference in the way these 2 meds affect NA levels is the determinant for which med is most helpful?

what is "pfc"

I get the first 1/2 of what you said, then didn't get the context of the second half in relation to the first.

????


Ritalin methylphenidate is the reuptake inhibitor

Adderral is the catecholemine releaser (also blocks uptake)

Adderall - catecholamine activity/both phasic, and tonic.

locus correulous/NA neurons:
tonic - energy/awake vs. sleep
phasic - attention to things as important

Phasic DA overactivity = impulsiviness
Phasic DA underactivity = prevents proper maintnence of long-term goal, and then allows for increased distractability. otoh inattention, inhibition and social anxiety have sometimes shown the opposite, so there isn't a clear role for DA worked out yet i don't think.


Ok, the second thing to know is that there isa lot of interaction in these systems, and location or even timing can have big effects. so moderate levels of NA in the frontal cortex agonize the postynaptic alpha2 adrenoceptors, and increase focus. less NA, no focus, but too much NA, alpha1 and beta adrenoceptors are ativated, and you get distracted, and pfc inhibition fails and pfc loses control->this is happening when you stress out and can't think straight.

SO then pfc attentional networks are important for control of lower regions, as NA & DA in the pfc affect da release in the limbic regions. frontal NA is also important for maintaining DA in lower levels in the 'response' portion to stress, once NA drops in cortex it cascades into feeling of hopelessness & 'give up'.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 19, 2009, at 10:53:49

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by desolationrower on March 17, 2009, at 14:22:39

Hi d/r!!!

Oh I should have used past tense-my son did grow out of the H in ADHD.

I'm not sure I understand what that abstract says. I have access to the full text journals through my Uni but am too lazy or impatient to go retrieve them lol. When they say "rightward bias" - do they mean tendancy to process thought using the right brain?

If I am reading this correctly the first statement that said "Previous research with neurotypical children found a rightward bias with right-hand use and a leftward bias with left-hand use"

Means that for ADD children, they have the opposite cognitive dominance in comparison with non-ADD children. For ADD-lefthanded use left brain; righthanded use right brain; for non-ADD-lefthanded use right brain; righthanded use left brain. Am I reading this incorrectly?

What does I and C subtypes mean? I guess I should Google it huh

AD/HD-I = showed leftward bias irrespective of hand use
AD/HD-C = showed rightward bias irrespective of hand use

"Conclusion: These findings suggest that the subtypes represent two distinct disorders and that, unlike ADHD-C, ADHD-I may not be the result of right hemisphere dysfunction."

That would be very interesting if I understood the parameters I questioned :))

Improve by switching hand dominance? That's an interesting thought. I can tell you that I've been forced to do that throughout my life. Don't laugh at me when I tell you this. Ok, it's ok to laugh I laugh about it know. I am mechanically retarded. I cannot use devices, tools, machinary. I hardly remember anything about my childhood--but remember my first week of kindergarten. I could not learn to use the scissors. I remember looking at the left-handed scissors with the turquoise rubber handles and the plain metal ones for righthanded use. I thought because I was left handed I had to use the left-handed scissors, but was trying to use them w/my right hand so they didn't work. I have to watch others use "tools" to learn how to do things. So I was watching how other people were doing it. I ended up using scissors/cutting with my right hand ever since. It sounds so stupid, but I think it was traumatic for me. I remember being so frustrated I couldn't cut paper like everyone else!! To this day, I can't use scissors with my left hand. I also got my mouth taped my first week of kindergarten, for speaking out, lol. Big piece of masking tape over my mouth. I never had a problem w/school ever since. If that happened today, the school would be sued.

I think stuff like this really hurt my self esteem, because it was one thing after another that I could not do. Like sewing class/home ec in 7th grade. I could not ever thread the damn sewing machine. I had to be shown over and over and over each time. I've never met anyone who couldn't do so many simple things w/devices

And I'm not clumsy or uncoordinated at all. Just mechanically retarded. Somehow though, I know all about electricity, according to my military ASVAB test. Intuitively, I know how electricity wokrs, but on the mechanical portion, I did sooo bad. And after bootcamp, like taking apart and cleaning my weapon and putting it back together--everyone in the class could remember how to do it, but I had to have the person next to me help me every time. I always felt like such an idiot.

Shooting an M-16 in boot camp was like the scissors incident..lol. So you had to be real fast and load the bullets into the cartridges over and over and everything was timed, shooting at multiple targets in various postures. I didn't have time to learn how to shoot with my left hand--because I had to look at the guys on both sides of me to watch how they did everything to learn. There was no one shooting left handed around me, and I can only learn to use devices from seeing how other people do it. So, I shoot right-handed ever since. I actually did quite well too, was good at aiming I think, but I also think how accurate the weapon's sight is effects your performance. Some of them are crap and people fail I think because of the weapon, not because they can't shoot. I did not do so well last time I qualified, but then again my eyes have gotten worse since then.

Anyway, cognitive science is exciting (is that what it's called?)!! I wish I had taking some classes in this subject through college.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 2:03:19

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 19, 2009, at 10:10:48

> Hi d/r! Does this say that the difference in the way these 2 meds affect NA levels is the determinant for which med is most helpful?

-hey hey garnet

-i'm not sure as there hasn't been too much comparing their effects. not the two meds you asked about, but "Effects of methylphenidate, desipramine, and L-dopa on attention and inhibition in children with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder." - overtoom is a paper i've seen most directly talking about different effects of adhd drugs.

> what is "pfc"

-pfc=PreFrontal Cortex. important for planning, attention, social activity, really big in humans.

> I get the first 1/2 of what you said, then didn't get the context of the second half in relation to the first.
>
> ????
>
>
> Ritalin methylphenidate is the reuptake inhibitor
>
> Adderral is the catecholemine releaser (also blocks uptake)
>
> Adderall - catecholamine activity/both phasic, and tonic.

-now that you organized my thoughts for me, maybe i need to be clearer. i think adderal (and other amphetamines), and methylphenidate, both increase tonic DA. tonic DA is combination of DA that the reuptake pumps miss, and also released right from dendrites. so mehtylphenidate increases it too, because the phasic DA doesn't get transported back in, and so becaomes the tonic level. (for DA, it just means DA the neurotransmitter level. absent drugs, an electrical impulse comes down the axon, releases DA, it is 'phasic', then the reuptake pumps most of it back in, leaving 'tonic' DA in the synapse or floating around to extrasynaptic locations. this is different than NA 'tonic' activity, which means low-level neuron electrical activity. phasic means they all fire together.) in the computational/information theory models, both NA and DA tonic activity are thought to have similar roles in terms of increasing information by means of low-level noise (which sounds paradoxical, i know).

> locus correulous/NA neurons:
> tonic - energy/awake vs. sleep
> phasic - attention to things as important
>
> Phasic DA overactivity = impulsiviness
> Phasic DA underactivity = prevents proper maintnence of long-term goal, and then allows for increased distractability. otoh inattention, inhibition and social anxiety have sometimes shown the opposite, so there isn't a clear role for DA worked out yet i don't think.
>

-^^^the stuff up is the how the drugs work explanation. the lower half is more about how you can't just look at one neurotransmitter as a 'unit', and you also can't look at one apart from another. there are a bunch of papers called things like 'neuro-computational model of the role of orbitofrontal norepinephrine in attentional dysfunction' that talk about this. and they don't all agree on thingseither.

> Ok, the second thing to know is that there isa lot of interaction in these systems, and location or even timing can have big effects. so moderate levels of NA in the frontal cortex agonize the postynaptic alpha2 adrenoceptors, and increase focus. less NA, no focus, but too much NA, alpha1 and beta adrenoceptors are ativated, and you get distracted, and pfc inhibition fails and pfc loses control->this is happening when you stress out and can't think straight.
>
> SO then pfc attentional networks are important for control of lower regions, as NA & DA in the pfc affect da release in the limbic regions. frontal NA is also important for maintaining DA in lower levels in the 'response' portion to stress, once NA drops in cortex it cascades into feeling of hopelessness & 'give up'.
>
>
>
> Hi d/r!!!

-hey hey garnet

> Oh I should have used past tense-my son did grow out of the H in ADHD.

> I'm not sure I understand what that abstract says. I have access to the full text journals through my Uni but am too lazy or impatient to go retrieve them lol. When they say "rightward bias" - do they mean tendancy to process thought using the right brain?

-arg, lucky you. i go down to the university ever few months and use the card catalogue computer to look up the papers on my list of cites and then email them all to myself.

> If I am reading this correctly the first statement that said "Previous research with neurotypical children found a rightward bias with right-hand use and a leftward bias with left-hand use"

> Means that for ADD children, they have the opposite cognitive dominance in comparison with non-ADD children. For ADD-lefthanded use left brain; righthanded use right brain; for non-ADD-lefthanded use right brain; righthanded use left brain. Am I reading this incorrectly?

-hm, it might be something more specific meant by 'bias'. you'd probably have to read the full paper. it could be something thats discussed frequently and i'm not familiar enough with this topic to recognize it.

> What does I and C subtypes mean? I guess I should Google it huh

inattenive, combined (combined meaning, people both hyperactive and inattentive)

> AD/HD-I = showed leftward bias irrespective of hand use
AD/HD-C = showed rightward bias irrespective of hand use

> "Conclusion: These findings suggest that the subtypes represent two distinct disorders and that, unlike ADHD-C, ADHD-I may not be the result of right hemisphere dysfunction."

> That would be very interesting if I understood the parameters I questioned :))

-i'm sure you'll have it all within a few days...


> Improve by switching hand dominance? That's an interesting thought. I can tell you that I've been forced to do that throughout my life. Don't laugh at me when I tell you this. Ok, it's ok to laugh I laugh about it know. I am mechanically retarded. I cannot use devices, tools, machinary. I hardly remember anything about my childhood--but remember my first week of kindergarten. I could not learn to use the scissors. I remember looking at the left-handed scissors with the turquoise rubber handles and the plain metal ones for righthanded use. I thought because I was left handed I had to use the left-handed scissors, but was trying to use them w/my right hand so they didn't work. I have to watch others use "tools" to learn how to do things. So I was watching how other people were doing it. I ended up using scissors/cutting with my right hand ever since. It sounds so stupid, but I think it was traumatic for me. I remember being so frustrated I couldn't cut paper like everyone else!! To this day, I can't use scissors with my left hand. I also got my mouth taped my first week of kindergarten, for speaking out, lol. Big piece of masking tape over my mouth. I never had a problem w/school ever since. If that happened today, the school would be sued.

> I think stuff like this really hurt my self esteem, because it was one thing after another that I could not do. Like sewing class/home ec in 7th grade. I could not ever thread the damn sewing machine. I had to be shown over and over and over each time. I've never met anyone who couldn't do so many simple things w/devices

And I'm not clumsy or uncoordinated at all. Just mechanically retarded. Somehow though, I know all about electricity, according to my military ASVAB test. Intuitively, I know how electricity wokrs, but on the mechanical portion, I did sooo bad. And after bootcamp, like taking apart and cleaning my weapon and putting it back together--everyone in the class could remember how to do it, but I had to have the person next to me help me every time. I always felt like such an idiot.

Shooting an M-16 in boot camp was like the scissors incident..lol. So you had to be real fast and load the bullets into the cartridges over and over and everything was timed, shooting at multiple targets in various postures. I didn't have time to learn how to shoot with my left hand--because I had to look at the guys on both sides of me to watch how they did everything to learn. There was no one shooting left handed around me, and I can only learn to use devices from seeing how other people do it. So, I shoot right-handed ever since. I actually did quite well too, was good at aiming I think, but I also think how accurate the weapon's sight is effects your performance. Some of them are crap and people fail I think because of the weapon, not because they can't shoot. I did not do so well last time I qualified, but then again my eyes have gotten worse since then.

-so really, it sounds like you already did that. you're kind of a fake lefthander, huh. well you are all sinister so its to be expected. weird, having to watch people to understand? i can't learn like that i have to read how to do something, getting it explained/demonstrated i can't follow. i just realized, you're watching me think and now can do that just like me? 8|

> Anyway, cognitive science is exciting (is that what it's called?)!! I wish I had taking some classes in this subject through college.


- i guess its cognitive neuroscience or neuropharmacology or something like that. you ask smart questions. just don't suck all the knowledge out of my head ok? i'd like to have something left just for me.

-d/r

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 8:48:38

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 2:03:19

Good morning Desolation :))

If you need me to get you any articles, just send me a babblemail. I can connect remotely to the eletronic library server at my uni from home and pass them on to you. I have to warn you that I don't know how all the sciency medical journals work, but it shouldn't be too difficult. Be careful, too, if I get your list of articles I will have more d/r knowledge.lol.

I'm going to try to find that article later, but I need to go get some coffee now and try to have a productive day with my research though I got up way later than intended. Last night I was in tears. I worked on it for over 12 hrs and got nowhere and had to scrap all the data I found after making a bunch of excel charts. I have over 100 pages of THE most disorganized, unfocused, over-wordy, over-detailed, over-everything pile of work (crap) I've ever seen.

I think I'm going to try the Adderall next time I see my PDocRN-if she lets me. It kind of scares me though.

Thanks and have a bright day :)) Sinister-you are too funny. It's a good thing I wasn't born 400 years ago!


 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by metric on March 21, 2009, at 15:42:58

In reply to ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by Garnet71 on March 16, 2009, at 18:26:51

> I have anxiety and ADD-inattentive type. It take Buspar 15 mg x 2 and Xanax .25 mg at night. I've had no anxiety symptoms for over a month and don't feel depressed or sad.
>
> So I quit Ritalin 20 mg x 2 a few days ago and started taking Wellbutrin SR 150 mg x 1 just 2 days ago. The Wellbutrin seems to have barely started to work (I know, I know its only been 3 days), but I'm feeling more irritable and unmotivated than before I took the Wellbutrin w/o the Ritalin.
>
> I have about 10 doses of Ritalin left over from the last script so I called my PDocRN to ask her if it was okay if I tried them with the Wellbutrin till it kicks in (if it even does). She said it would be ok as long as my heart doesn't race or anything like that.
>

Wellbutrin doesn't seem to be anything more than a stimulant -- and a pretty crummy one at that (poor central/peripheral stimulation ratio). It has low "abuse potential" (meaning that few people like its effects).

> I'm so overwhelmend and behind in my deadline and can't seem to get stuff done-it seems like there's holes in time each day--like 8 hours of my day just disappear and I think-where did the time go? So I took a Ritalin today--again, it only lasted about 2 hrs., now my head feels fuzzy again and I feel yucky like before I took it.
>

Methylphenidate (Ritalin) is very short acting. Daily low-dose selegiline can potentiate and prolong the effect of stimulants, but trying a longer-acting stimulant would probably be more sensible before resorting to that, which isn't altogether free from side-effects and risk.

> So I was a reading part of an ADD/ADHD a book on Google books which said one type of ADD med is not dependent upon the brain's dopamine availability as much as the other. One ADD med facilitates an increased production of dopamine and blocks uptake while the other just more or less blocks it/keeps it where its needed but doesn't aid production.
>

"ADD" isn't defined at a biological level. One has ADD by virtue of having whatever cluster of symptoms is voted into the latest DSM. People can have difficulty concentrating for a limitless number of reasons. Perhaps there are a subset of children labeled ADHD (like the genuinely hyperkinetic ones) that share a discrete neurological abnormality, but with the absence of scientific rigor with which psychiatry proceeds, we'll probably never know.

In any case, don't pigeonhole yourself into the ill-defined diagnostic entity known as ADD. Psychiatry has convinced countless individuals that there's something fundamentally wrong with them for responding naturally to the stresses of modern life.


> I feel like my brain doesn't make enough dopamine or something.

Since dopamine is associated with pleasure/reward, it's not uncommon for depressed people to reach that conclusion.

> I don't know how else to explain it. Zoloft/Prozac seemed to make my dopamine levels hit bottom, though I quit taking them a couple of months ago after feeling miserable because they have been prescribed to me off/on for 3 years. They made me depressed and miserable and unmotivated, alhtough they worked for the anxiety--all of them did.

You're not alone. SSRIs are lobotomizing drugs. They turn down the volume on all experience, both good and bad.

> Any advice on the dopamine issue or ADD meds?
>

Just try 'em out and use whatever works best...

> It seems I should give Adderall a try, but PDocRN didn't mention it and I don't know if its okay to ask for a med like that. Is it really much different from Ritalin? What if I was prescribed a small dose--like a third of what people start at just to see? Has anyone tried both?
>

Dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine, DestroStat) is superior IMO to Adderall because it has less peripheral/cardiovascular activity per unit of mental stimulation (Adderall contains levo- in addition to dextro- amphetamine). I elaborated on this briefly in a couple of other recent posts, so I won't comment further unless you want me to.


 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » metric

Posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 18:51:20

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by metric on March 21, 2009, at 15:42:58

Hi Metric,

You sound like someone who works in the health-care field!

Thanks for the tips. I checked up on dextroamphetamine. If I understand it correctly, Adderall contains about 3/4 of dextro plus about 1/4 of levo (the stuff you said has adverse effects)--so why do physicians prefer Adderall over Dextroamphetamine? I'm sort of confused.

Anyway, I checked my little Dr. Preskorn neurotransmitter chart, keeping DesolationRower's corrections in mind, which indicated Wellbutrin affects both NE and Dopamine receptors, much like Dextro. I wonder if that would be a bit too much for my brain.

So I do have severe anxiety, but have/had no symptoms, though I take Buspirone, with Wellbutrin or the Ritalin. I wonder if dextro would add anxiety--I know try and see....but wondering--since Zoloft affects the 5H2/seratonin receptors, and Zoloft eliminates my anxiety (like all the SSRIs), does that mean my anxiety is likely a seratonin issue? I noticed dextro works on seratonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine.

Oh, about the label/disorder of ADD/ADHD--I don't mind it because it really helps me understand all my frustrations I've lived with for many years, along with my son. I don't really think it's a disorder though; to me, it's just a different cognitive 'type'. Different cognitive styles come with good and bad affects--consider autism for an example, though extreme. The reason it becomes a disorder is because if you don't think like everyone else, if you don't act like everyone else, you know... society can't change for small percentage of us who look at things differently; apparently, we must change for society.

It reminds me of an article I read about computer geeks (not making fun-I happen to like computer geeks) and autism. The article said it's possible that computer geeks are in the autism spectrum; some people who were once considered autistic before computers were mainstream, are now computer programmers. No joke, but just an opinion written. I tend to agree, at least partially, since it takes a really special person to do programming-its tough. I took a class and watched 1/4 of the class drop out in the first 2 weeks, and another 1/2 of the class fail. Well, it was a summer class so it was tougher..I watched 2 people being brought to tears during the test. The ONLY reason I passed with a low B is because I sought tutoring at least 8 hours a week to get As on the homework assignments to compensate my anticipated trouble with the final exam and tests, and every free minute I had to spend doing nothing but homework for that class. Then, since I made it that far, the teacher gave me hints while I was doing the final exam--but it turned out to be one test-long hint. lol It was the most frustrating thing I've ever done in my life. Now that I know how it all works, though, I have no desire to ever try to do it again. Every time I see Java code now, I get traumatic flashbacks..lol

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » metric

Posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 21:08:17

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by metric on March 21, 2009, at 15:42:58

> Wellbutrin doesn't seem to be anything more than a stimulant -- and a pretty crummy one at that (poor central/peripheral stimulation ratio). It has low "abuse potential" (meaning that few people like its effects).


actutally i'm of the opinion that the tnf-alpha inhibition could be responsible for bupropion's activity (and why it behaves differently to other stimulants)

-d/r

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71

Posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 21:36:03

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 8:48:38

hey, research go ok? whats it on?

part of my social anxiety is i hate asking people for favors. i don't have much trouble telling others to piss off, but other people do; so i don't like putting others where they have to say no in some way. so i'll just post my list, and if any of them interest you enough to look them up and read them, email me a copy too. besides, its a long list!

i took just one math class in college before i decided i didn't want to go into engineering. it was because i didn't like how studying math affected how i thought socially. i think it is like the autism it made my tendencies like that more and i didn't like it.

-d/r

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Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 22, 2009, at 2:03:59

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71, posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 21:36:03

Hi desolationeliminator,

You don't seem like you have social anxiety at all. You know, my son is the same way--he hates asking people for favors. It's actually a real problem for him. I never knew that was part of social anxiety so I'll have to think about that some more and talk to him about it. But aren't you happy to do favors for nice people? See, it works both ways. I'm happy to help you out, no problemo.

So I have a million databases and libraries which makes it harder to find I think...so-I found 7 of them for you so far--so send me an email address where you want them sent. My wireless on my laptop keeps going out every few minutes, so I have to keep re-accessing the server each time that happens. I'll get more later/ tomorrow. BTW, Is there one good database you know of for finding the medically sciency stuff that you're interested in?

That's interesting what you said about math affecting your thinking, so you'll have to explain that more. How does one class change the way you think socially?

I like math but I suck at it. My son want(s)(ed) to be an engineer, but doesn't have enough self confidence with the math, so he's now going for a 4 year degree in mechanical drafting, but looking into nanotechnology, but still, no confidence in that either. My Dad was a self-taught engineer--no college degree, and it was in such as specialized type he ended up traveling alot before he died. There's autism in my family, and the side of the family its on is very good mechanically and with math and computers. I somehow turned out the opposite as I mentioned before, I'm mechanically retarded. So you're good at math but don't like how it affects social dynamics. Maybe that is something you could have overcome.

So tell me what type of engineer you were thinking? Let me guess-chemical? What major did you end up pursuing?

Ug, the research I was more productive today than yesterday, but its painful to sort through the mess, especially since I'm not even finished supporting my thesis yet.

K. Send me an address where you want the journal articles to go.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration

Posted by Garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:53:39

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71, posted by desolationrower on March 21, 2009, at 21:36:03

Hey I sent 3 separate emails so let me know if you got them. I don't know if the MB were too much for one email/Yahoo for the 2 I sent with 6 and 7 files attached. So I sent 14 articles all together, so far, I think.

I accidentally sent you one about the HPA axis-I retrieved that for myself so disregard. :))

 

oops-above message for DesolationTerminator (nm)

Posted by Garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:55:29

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration, posted by Garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:53:39

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71

Posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:03:38

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 22, 2009, at 2:03:59


> So I have a million databases and libraries which makes it harder to find I think...so-I found 7 of them for you so far--so send me an email address where you want them sent. My wireless on my laptop keeps going out every few minutes, so I have to keep re-accessing the server each time that happens. I'll get more later/ tomorrow. BTW, Is there one good database you know of for finding the medically sciency stuff that you're interested in?

Hi Garnet,

Though your message above was addressed to desolationrower, I thought I'd chime in:

If you use Firefox as your Web browser, I highly recommend the Zotero extension, which makes it a snap to download citations and grab associated full-text PDFs, take Web-page snapshots, and manage your bibliographic database. Check it out (and of course it's free):

http://www.zotero.org/

Do you use Google Scholar? A handy feature of Google Scholar is that it provides direct links to the full-text in the search results if your institution's library is supported (the links just point to your library's proxy-based URL). To see if your library is supported, type your library's name in the "Library Links" text box and click "Find Library":
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_preferences?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&output=search

Alternatively, if your library proxy follows a consistent URL-scheme, you may be able to manually alter the URL of the regular link to the text. E.g., if you have a link so:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/path2paper?foo=bar
you might change it to:
http://myproxy.myinstitution.www.sciencedirect.com/path2paper?foo=bar

PubMed, ScienceDirect, Google Scholar, Scirus, Wiley Interscience, BIOSIS, are useful... I used to use many providers -- not so many in the past couple years. ScienceDirect (if you have access) was one of my favorites full-text search engines with broad coverage.

> I like math but I suck at it. My son want(s)(ed) to be an engineer, but doesn't have enough self confidence with the math, so he's now going for a 4 year degree in mechanical drafting, but looking into nanotechnology, but still, no confidence in that either. My Dad was a self-taught engineer--no college degree, and it was in such as specialized type he ended up traveling alot before he died. There's autism in my family, and the side of the family its on is very good mechanically and with math and computers.

It's worth mentioning that very few students are ever introduced to anything resembling *real* math, which is both fascinating and prerequisite to serious pursuit of any technical endeavor. Most of what is passed off as "math" is boring plug-and-chug computational stuff that can be done by -- and is best left to -- computers.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71

Posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:08:41

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » metric, posted by garnet71 on March 21, 2009, at 18:51:20


> Thanks for the tips. I checked up on dextroamphetamine. If I understand it correctly, Adderall contains about 3/4 of dextro plus about 1/4 of levo (the stuff you said has adverse effects)--so why do physicians prefer Adderall over Dextroamphetamine? I'm sort of confused.
>

For political reasons mostly... "ADDerall" is a new medicine; Dexedrine is that evil drug of abuse from the '60s and '70s. I don't really think either drug (or Ritalin) is a good idea for long-term use in most people, though the alternatives leave much to be desired.


> Anyway, I checked my little Dr. Preskorn neurotransmitter chart, keeping DesolationRower's corrections in mind, which indicated Wellbutrin affects both NE and Dopamine receptors, much like Dextro. I wonder if that would be a bit too much for my brain.
>
> So I do have severe anxiety, but have/had no symptoms, though I take Buspirone, with Wellbutrin or the Ritalin. I wonder if dextro would add anxiety--I know try and see....but wondering--since Zoloft affects the 5H2/seratonin receptors, and Zoloft eliminates my anxiety (like all the SSRIs), does that mean my anxiety is likely a seratonin issue? I noticed dextro works on seratonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine.
>

Buspirone (Buspar) was originally developed as an antipsychotic but marketed as an anxiolytic. It has no effect on anxiety. Your response or lack thereof to any of these drugs doesn't indicate a relative dominance or inferiority of any neurotransmitter in your CNS. You can't infer that you e.g., need more or less serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. It's way more complicated than that. All "antidepressants", for
example, are thought to work by effecting changes downstream. And you have different areas of the brain and different receptor subtypes that you don't want to activate or block indiscriminately, which is what would result from a global increase or decrease in neurotransmitter level. That's the problem with SSRIs: they nonselectively increase the amount of available serotonin at all 5-HT subtypes. Mirtazapine (Remeron) is more interesting in that respect; alas, its H1 (histamine) receptor antagonism ensures you'll be too tired to care.

> Oh, about the label/disorder of ADD/ADHD--I don't mind it because it really helps me understand all my frustrations I've lived with for many years, along with my son. I don't really think it's a disorder though; to me, it's just a different cognitive 'type'. Different cognitive styles come with good and bad affects--consider autism for an example, though extreme. The reason it becomes a disorder is because if you don't think like everyone else, if you don't act like everyone else, you know... society can't change for small percentage of us who look at things differently; apparently, we must change for society.
>
> It reminds me of an article I read about computer geeks (not making fun-I happen to like computer geeks) and autism. The article said it's possible that computer geeks are in the autism spectrum; some people who were once considered autistic before computers were mainstream, are now computer programmers. No joke, but just an opinion written. I tend to agree, at least partially, since it takes a really special person to do programming-its tough. I took a class and watched 1/4 of the class drop out in the first 2 weeks, and another 1/2 of the class fail. Well, it was a summer class so it was tougher..I watched 2 people being brought to tears during the test. The ONLY reason I passed with a low B is because I sought tutoring at least 8 hours a week to get As on the homework assignments to compensate my anticipated trouble with the final exam and tests, and every free minute I had to spend doing nothing but homework for that class. Then, since I made it that far, the teacher gave me hints while I was doing the final exam--but it turned out to be one test-long hint. lol It was the most frustrating thing I've ever done in my life. Now that I know how it all works, though, I have no desire to ever try to do it again. Every time I see Java code now, I get traumatic flashbacks..lol

Java? No wonder you were traumatized by the experience! It's obvious from reading your posts that you're an intelligent person. You would laugh at how easy computer programming is if you had received proper instruction; in fact, I doubt you'd need any instruction at all. Read "The C Programming Language" (2nd ed., Kernighan & Ritchie), and if you want to have some fun, "Programming Perl" (affectionately known as the "Camel Book"). There's an "Introduction to Perl" as well if you want a gentler introduction. Perl is incredibly useful to know. If you're less interested in the immediately pragmatic there's the excellent 3-volume set by Donald Knuth "The Art of Programming".

Are you familiar with Tom Apostol's classic 2-volume Calculus text? It requires very little background, and is an excellent introduction (IMO) to rigorous proof-oriented mathematics. MIT's OpenCourseWare project has lecture notes freely available.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » metric

Posted by Garnet71 on March 24, 2009, at 12:19:03

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71, posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:03:38

Hi Metric-Great that you decided to chime in--thanks. You should do it more often.

The meta search utility at the library of my uni is the easiest way to find specific articles, but I realized it recognizes my IP address rather than the IP address at my institution; when I go to retrieve an article, it brings me to the log in screen of the publisher. If I go to retrieve a journal article using, instead, the journal search method, the publisher recognizes my insitution's IP address and I get right to the article. I still found most of them via the latter, but it took a lot longer.

I use the Cisco VPN platform to connect. The library home page of my institution indicates that if you come across this problem, use the 'regular' Cisco VPN rather than the web-based Cisco VPN. I'm already using the 'regular' Cisco VPN. I think maybe I can avoid the problem if I adjust something with the configuration, but don't want to mess it up. I think I configured it correctly, though, since there were detailed instructions by my uni that I followed when I set it up.

I didn't have a chance to check out all of the useful resources you brought up considering I need to maintain my focus on research outside of retrieving psychiatric papers at the moment, but will surely use your advice within the next couple of days. No, I don't use Firefox here at home, but I know a lot of IT people do. Do they offer it for free online? I have Windows XP - Notebook Edition.

Zotero--I wish I knew about it sooner. I have all my citations for a research project I'm working on in Word 2007, but while it does save them and organize them, it does not format them correctly. But hey, there's always another opportunity.

Anyway, thanks again for all the information and very useful advice!

P.S. I can see where your coming from with the math and agree with you that it is very interesting. Math is underrated in this country.

The most difficult math I ever took was pre-calc, hardly an advanced class, but I had so much trouble with the graphs and the class in general. Graphs always give me trouble. Even in economics. I just can't translate concepts into graphs and vice versa. It's the abstractness. Although I never took trig in high school, the trigonometry part didn't seem so difficult. I liked the calc word problems-they, too, offer a lot of insight into how the world works, but am not so good at solving them.

 

Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » metric

Posted by garnet71 on March 27, 2009, at 7:42:18

In reply to Re: ADD meds/motivation/concentration » garnet71, posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:08:41

Hey Metric, maybe you are either a chemical engineer/ex-pharmaceutical guy or a computer science person who is self-taught in neuroscience from MIT open coursewear..lol. Just ignore that, it's just a curious guess. Maybe there is rivalry between the pharmaceutical co's and psychiatrists? Sort of like the rivalry between loan officers and real estate agents, DOD and State Dept., cops and lawyers? lol. I've seen it in most fields I've worked in; it's a very common phenonemon.

I know it takes a lot of education and training to understand meds and their effects on our brains. Learning and talking about it in the only way I can, however, has helped me, considering I've been given meds that made me miserable or non-functioning over the past 3 years or so until I came to this forum in December and acquired some insight about it. I think, too, that anxiety is one of the least researched areas in psychiatry or science, just a guess from a layperson...As far as the Buspirone goes, it appears, at first glance, to go hand in hand with SSRIs in efficacy vs. placebos. I really don't know if it will work when I get under extreme pressures again, but I'm going to keep at it until that happens. I'm not sure right now what my other options are for anxiety. I am lost as to why I can't handle stressors the way I used to, though the simultaneous stressors I recently had were enough to affect mentally strong people too. Not that I still don't have them all-I only got rid of one major stressor.

Thanks for the programming tips, but no thanks..lol. I only took that class as an elective to see how it all works, well also because it would look good on my transcript for grad school application. My unconventional view is that programming sort of operationalizes all our societal institutions, so there is great utility in learning how it works. Long ago, my dad taught himself to program as a hobby from reading books like that, and carried it to his job by writing programs that made the company more efficient/profitable. I don't understand how so many business leaders can be clueless about technology. Not in a sense to micromanage, but in a sense to capitalize upon opportunities. From what I learned, most IT people at organizations are normally not trained in business concepts, which creates a wall between the two; a divide bet. business and technology.

I could really use the math help though, but can't even keep up with books for school, let alone anything extra. Wish I came across your advice in that regard a couple years ago. Tom Apostol, hmmm. Maybe I will get it anyway.

Do you have any tips to learn something like this:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Spreadsheet-Modeling-Decision-Analysis/Cliff-Ragsdale/e/9780324656633/

I cannot learn the steps in creating the math models from class, though the Excel Solver/Crystal Ball thing after you create the models doesn't seem too difficult. I tried to learn this, but the whole time the professor was talking, though an awesome professor, I just kept thinking if/how these types of models could be used for medical diagnosis and other unrelated things. I can't learn steps to do anything, can't pay attention for longer than 5 seconds, and I learn by absorption, which can't be used to learn abstract stuff like this, not that I know of anyway. Can learn the 'arts' but not the 'sciences'. Went from UG arts degree to Grad Science degree-and had to take leave from grad school when I quit taking meds and developed panic attacks again, but am going back soon and have to take that class. I like it alot, but am dreading it because I don't know how I'm going to pass. Any advice in regard to that decision modeling class?

Thanks for sharing all that with me!


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