Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 881677

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Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by bleauberry on February 27, 2009, at 17:17:59

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on February 27, 2009, at 9:44:54

> Hi Bleauberry.
>
> When you first departed on your odyssey of treatment with antidepressants, were you med-sensitive?
>
> Do you have an example of a drug that you were once able to take in large amounts for which you cannot take now?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott

Well, let's see, the first ever was Paxil at 10mg for a week and then 20mg after that and then 30mg. Except for the obvious sexual problems, piece of cake.

Prozac 10mg for 4 days then 20mg. A slight bit of the prozac jitters for a couple weeks and the sleep problems, but basically a pretty mild introduction to a new med.

In my early psych journey, normal doses of just about anything felt rather benign overall.

Zyprexa 5mg smooth as could be.

3 or 4 large coffees a day no prob.

But after about 8 years, all that changed fairly rapidly within a timeframe of perhaps 6 months. The first I noticed was a progressing intolerability of my usual coffee. After that it just all progressed downhill fast.

What am I NOT sensitive to? Hmmm. That's a tough one. Well, Ibuprofen is fine. Olive Leaf Extract is fine (a potent herbal antimicrobial/anti-inflammatory). I seem ok with modest doses of vitamin D or vitamin E, a modest dose of selenium or zinc, but not at all tolerable of any of the other minerals, and especially not tolerable at all in any way to B vitamin supplementation at any dose. The absolute worst are Bs, magnesium, and lithium. I recently tried SAMe for 2 days at 200mg and it was tolerable just fine other than the headache, and its rapid acute antidepressant and antipain effect was a surprise.

I have no idea if this is more anecdotal suggestive evidence of a longterm ssri syndrome, or perhaps a pathology of Lyme or Lyme-like (my LLMD sees this with nearly all his patients), a pathology of exposure to unusually large amalgams (not that many at chelation forums seem sensitive like me), or a combination of all the above.

It is a very frustrating situation because it seriously limits the ability to try things, regardless if they are vitamins, herbs, or medicines. The only good side is that if there is to be any benefit from a supplement, it is noticed quickly and at a tiny dose. Example, milnacipran at a mere 6mg bid deserved a standing ovation in producing perhaps a 30% improvement from baseline in under 2 weeks. Heck, that is half the starting dose.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS

Posted by zzzz7 on February 28, 2009, at 18:24:32

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive., posted by SLS on February 23, 2009, at 16:17:59

SLS, this is from a post I made two months ago. I have a case similar to that of NewQuestions'. Right now, I'm off SRIs totally, and when I get depressed .1mg of Requip works immediately.

From 1997 to 2006 I was on large amounts of SRI drugs. At various points, I was on 400mg clomipramine with 100mg Luvox, 110mg Prozac, 100mg Prozac and 400mg ProVigil, and the like.

in 2006 I entered a deep depression after a sporting injury that caused me to go from a high level of physical activity to none at all for several months. To get out of it, I pushed serotonin levels even higher than I had before. I assumed that drugs were pooping out on me. I even added small amounts of 5HTP. All of this seemed to make things even worse. I backed way off when I developed signs of serotonin syndrome. As I backed off, I felt better. The lower I went, the better I felt. I went down to 1mg Lexapro for a while. I felt better, but still slightly depressed. Then, all the way down to two sand-sized grains of Lexapro. Finally relief. I experimented some more by going off SRIs altogether (in this case Lexapro). The depression came back. So, apparently I'm hyper-sensitive to serotonin (and the same turns out to be case for DA; I found this out by decreasing doses of amatadine to lower serotonin levels when I had taken too much of the SRI).

The problem is that something like exercising will increase DA levels such that I get depressed. One grain too much on Lexapro, I get depressed. I sit on this knife's edge between DA and 5HT, and it's tough not to fall off one side.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by zzzz7 on February 28, 2009, at 18:26:36

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive., posted by bleauberry on February 27, 2009, at 17:17:59

beauberry, are you able to see a common thread in terms of effects of various substances on neurotransmitters?

I've not had problems with things that don't affect dopamine or serotonin.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7

Posted by bleauberry on February 28, 2009, at 19:12:25

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive., posted by zzzz7 on February 28, 2009, at 18:26:36

> beauberry, are you able to see a common thread in terms of effects of various substances on neurotransmitters?
>
> I've not had problems with things that don't affect dopamine or serotonin.

Well, actually with me it seems the there are some categories that help...

Milnacipran with its 3:1 norepinephrine to serotonin balance. Even so, I can only take 1/2 of the introductory starting dose.

Antibiotics make me a lot worse for a couple weeks and then a lot better. Definintely a chronic infection going on. Nearly impossible to diagnose these things, but reactions to blind antibiotic challenge trials tell the unseen story.

SAMe is a darn good antidepressant and works really fast. While it is claimed it increases serotonin and dopamine, I would strongly bet it does not. If it did, believe me, I would know, same as you. It does something else...changes in gene expression, more fluidity in receptors, more receptiveness of receptors, detoxing unknown bodily contaminants, stuff like that.

DMSA is a lead/mercury chelator. I have done 10 rounds of low dose frequent dose for 4 to 7 days each round. Every single round there have been 2 days of incredible improvement. I cannot figure out if it is because I am clearing out a layer of toxic metals, or if I am responding positively to the addition of a strong sulfur source. Coincidentally, SAMe also is a sulfur source.

So anyway, yeah, any psych drug that is pro-serotonin or pro-dopamine is bad business and tricky business for me. But norepinephrine, antibiotics, metal chelators, and good ole SAMe feel a heck of a lot better than $20,000 worth of what the psych world can offer me.

Kind of makes one wonder why the medical profession doesn't expand depression treatment outside the limited confines of psychiatry. Lots of things mess up the brain that no amount of serotonin will fix and can instead make it worse.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by zzzz7 on February 28, 2009, at 19:19:00

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7, posted by bleauberry on February 28, 2009, at 19:12:25

That's interesting; NE should affect DA and 5HT levels indirectly.

What about Lamictal?

Are the antibiotics Sulfa? Could they be affecting the levels of another drug you're taking via inhibition of a P450 enzyme? Is your white cell count up in a way that would indicate an infection?

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7

Posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 7:14:52

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS, posted by zzzz7 on February 28, 2009, at 18:24:32

> when I get depressed .1mg of Requip works immediately.

This might be reaching a bit, but have you tried Abilify? It is a unique drug in that it acts as a dopamine receptor partial agonist at D2 and D3. It is supposed to stabilize the synapse. It would be like effectively mixing Zyprexa and Requip. They do not cancel each other out.


- Scott

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 7:21:06

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7, posted by bleauberry on February 28, 2009, at 19:12:25

I asked my doctor what he thought of the development of med-sensitivity. His knee-jerk reaction was to suggest that it might mean that the patient no longer needs a particular drug mechanism of action. Essentially, you wouldn't need an SSRI anymore because the system is already corrected to its capacity. I'm not sure I agree with him on that one, but to be fair, he only had a few seconds to think about it as I was walking out the door.


- Scott

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » bleauberry

Posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 7:22:13

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7, posted by bleauberry on February 28, 2009, at 19:12:25

Hi Bleauberry.

Are you now sensitive to Stablon (tianeptine)?


- Scott

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by zzzz7 on March 1, 2009, at 15:46:31

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive., posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 7:21:06

Thanks, Scott. I have tried Abilify; it makes me feel worse. I wish your pdoc were right. I need tiny amounts of these drugs. My brain reacts to them as though it were a normal dose for a normal person. And if I take, say, .05mg rather than .1mg of Lexapro, it's as if someone normal went from 10mg to 5mg.

The one drug that has helped me is Lamictal, though it's pretty side-effect heavy for me on the cognitive side.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by bleauberry on March 1, 2009, at 17:21:30

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 7:22:13

> Hi Bleauberry.
>
> Are you now sensitive to Stablon (tianeptine)?
>
>
> - Scott

Interesting question. Actually, I was able to start with 1 pill first day. Fine. Two pills second day. Fine. And the full dose by day 3. No problem in toleration. No apparent sensitivity with Stablon.

It just didn't do anything good for me is the only problem with it. Each day over a 3 week period I got a little more depressed than the previous day until it was just getting really bad compared to where I had started and really there was no genius needed to say stop. Other than that, it was fairly invisibile in terms of side effects of sensitivity.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7

Posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 19:08:56

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive., posted by zzzz7 on March 1, 2009, at 15:46:31

> Thanks, Scott. I have tried Abilify; it makes me feel worse. I wish your pdoc were right. I need tiny amounts of these drugs. My brain reacts to them as though it were a normal dose for a normal person. And if I take, say, .05mg rather than .1mg of Lexapro, it's as if someone normal went from 10mg to 5mg.

I hate losing.

1. Have you ever tried St. John's Wort (SJW)?
2. How about a tricyclic with mild serotonin effect: nortriptyline.
3. Has ADD ever been mentioned as a diagnosis?


- Scott

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » raisinb

Posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 19:15:33

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS, posted by raisinb on February 26, 2009, at 10:29:38

Hi.

Sorry to not be keeping up with this thread, but my energy and concentration have been lacking.

If you can get Wellbutrin to produce mania, you are half-way there. Depression is generally harder to treat than mania. Here, you would treat the mania rather than remove the antidepressant. For instance, you could try a variety of anticonvulsant mood stabilizers. Depakote would be my first choice of one of these drugs. The other option would be to use an antipsychotic like Abilify or Seroquel to stabilize the mood and squash the mania.


- Scott

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS

Posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2009, at 19:42:05

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » raisinb, posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 19:15:33

Does that advise also apply to me as manic on 150mg of wellbutrin with benzos? Love Phillipa

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS

Posted by raisinb on March 1, 2009, at 19:54:33

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » raisinb, posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 19:15:33

That is a very interesting idea--and the exact opposite of the approach my pdoc took. My pdoc was very strongly opposed to me continuing Wellbutrin at all, even though it was working well with Zoloft. She said it was responsible for my insomnia (I have had insomnia for 10 years--I don't think WB was the sole cause).

Anyway, I'm doing fine on a Zoloft/Lexapro combo, but I notice that my happiness level is not what it was when I was taking the Wellbutrin. "Welloft" seemed to be an almost magical combination--weight loss and insomnia aside.

After months of being suicidal, that rush of dopamine with the first couple pills was really something.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive.

Posted by zzzz7 on March 1, 2009, at 23:41:08

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » zzzz7, posted by SLS on March 1, 2009, at 19:08:56

Hi Scott,

1. Have you ever tried St. John's Wort (SJW)?

No. I'm afraid of its MAOI properties.

2. How about a tricyclic with mild serotonin effect: nortriptyline.

I've had protryptline to try to get the ACH effects as well the effects on NE. Also, I've tried imipramine. Both depressed me in any amount at all.

3. Has ADD ever been mentioned as a diagnosis?

No. I'm pretty certain I'm not ADD. OCDish, though.

Thanks.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » raisinb

Posted by zzzz7 on March 1, 2009, at 23:46:38

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » SLS, posted by raisinb on March 1, 2009, at 19:54:33

Why not cut down on the Wellbutrin or add another dopaminergic drug (Requip or amantadine) in its place? You can do small amounts of regular buproprion, esp. if you're on an anti-convulsant.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 8:00:17

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive. » raisinb, posted by zzzz7 on March 1, 2009, at 23:46:38

What about hormones? HGH? Would you be sensitive to that?

Also, how about ldn?

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 10:02:50

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 8:00:17

Have you confirmed you have lyme disease or mecury poisoing or is it just a theory?

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 10:46:41

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 10:02:50

Beauberry--my most distressing symptom right now is major confusion, lack of ability to learn, lack of concentration, memory loss. I feel like my hard drive has been erased--major vacancy.

I think it is either from protracted withdrawal off of a SSRI or a side effect of the benzo I am on (which I am tapering off). Can you relate to this?

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by zzzz7 on March 2, 2009, at 14:04:03

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 10:46:41

I'd bet it was the benzo tapering. It most certainly can do that. The other thing that has made me feel that way is Lamictal (though it feels different than coming off a benzo).

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry » NewQuestions

Posted by bleauberry on March 2, 2009, at 20:15:28

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 2, 2009, at 8:00:17

HGH, I don't know if I would be sensitive to it or not. I was very sensitive to hydrocortisone. Only needed 1.25mg-2.5mg when the target was supposed to be 20mg.

Was very sensitive to LDN. I could not get higher than 1.5mg.

Metals toxicity was confirmed via DMSA urine challenge test and hair sample, twice each a year apart. The strong taste of metal in my mouth, and the fabulous temporary disappearance of depression, during chelation rounds are fairly strong supporting diagnostic criteria.

There really is no solid confirmation of Lyme that exists today. We are years away from having the accurate tests needed. The best confirmation is a close examination of history, exposure, and symptoms. They paint a fairly distinct picture. The best we can get in terms of diagnosis is "highly suggestive". The only true confirmation is antibiotics...see what happens. If you get a lot worse, and then a lot better, you had Lyme or something similar. My doc says with so many of his patients that got well on his chosen antibiotics, we never knew for sure what they had, only that they got better on antibiotics.

In my case, history equals several attached ticks over recent years; heavy flea exposure from my outdoor cats (fleas can transmit some really bad things too); the mysterious rash that makes Lyme famous, though it doesn't happen with everyone; and all the common symptoms.

It's kind of like psychiatry. How do we know someone has a chemical imbalance? How do we know which one is out of balance? Any confirmation of that? Any test to prove it? Nope. But based on history and symptoms, we make the assumption that is the case, write a prescription for an ssri, and see what happens.

Fortunately diagnosis of Lyme or Lyme-like is, regardless of not having concrete facts, a lot more concrete than psychiatry is.

I remember the good ole days when 20mg Prozac went down like candy, and 5mg Zyprexa felt like a mild benadryl. Whew, sensitivity sure changed all that.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 3, 2009, at 10:32:54

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry » NewQuestions, posted by bleauberry on March 2, 2009, at 20:15:28

If it was the metal, wouldn't the chelation therapy rememdy your symptoms? A metal taste in your mouth is a pretty typical SE or w/d symptom of many ADs.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2009, at 17:19:42

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 3, 2009, at 10:32:54

> If it was the metal, wouldn't the chelation therapy rememdy your symptoms? A metal taste in your mouth is a pretty typical SE or w/d symptom of many ADs.


I am familiar with that AD or drug taste. Chelation taste is distinctly different. Very metallic.

Chelation therapy is not easy or straightforward or fast. Each round is estimated to remove only a small percentage of the body load.

Once the body is fairly clean, then begins the task of removing metals from the brain. The prescription drugs don't cross the blood brain barrier. Alpha Lipoic Acid or Cilantro are the only substances that do cross it and snag lead and mercury to mobilize them out. But of course, they can also bring metals in to the brain, if the body levels are high, and that is why the body has to be cleaned out first.

Difficult stuff. Takes time. Some people get healed, some people see respectable benefits, some people see minor benefits, and some people don't get any better. Some people who do it wrong get a lot worse. Depends on what damage was done I guess.

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 4, 2009, at 8:04:24

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by bleauberry on March 3, 2009, at 17:19:42

Was your blood test positive for mercury and lead?

 

Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry

Posted by NewQuestions on March 6, 2009, at 16:26:40

In reply to Re: Being Med-Sensitive-beauberry, posted by NewQuestions on March 4, 2009, at 8:04:24

How high a dose of SSRIs were you on? Do you think the higher the dose, the more likely the poop out, like we are experiecning?


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