Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 75408

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MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:48

I am a newbie to MAOIs and also a vegan. Anybody on MAOIs have experience eating tofu, fresh soy beans (edemame) or taking ginseng? I take a suppliment with 250mgs of siberian ginseng. Anybody have a problem with any of these foods?
Or are they OK?

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:52

In reply to MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 9:21:44

You've probably had lots of references to lists of allowed/disallowed foods. I noticed that this page had further lnks that explained in more detail which soybean foods are all right.

http://www.pccnaturalmarkets.com/health/Diet/Tyramine_Free_Diet.htm

Ginseng isn't okay, from what I remember.

Honore

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:59

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17

Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 11:27:51

Selegiline metabolizes to D-amphetamine and methamphetamine, which are good antidepressants in and of themselves. Because they require MAO to be eliminated, and the selegiline has it suppressed, they will build up to a higher level than they would have otherwise. Some appetite suppression and insomnia may occur, but you may get over it in time. I take Rozerem at 9 PM nightly to help with the sleep cycle, and I have Sonata on hand to take occassionally if I awaken after only three or four hours of sleep.

jkshrews

> Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

A small amount of seroquel is also useful, if rozerem and/or ambien aren't enough.

Sonata is particularly good if you wake up with a few hours left to sleep, since it has a very short half-life.

I recommend Emsam, but of course, there are many individual factors that affect which drug is best. jkshrews is probably right, that the sleep issues subside'; I'm not sure they go away completely, but the extra energy from Emsam makes them more manageable.

Parnate also has some amphetamine-like breakdown products, so it should give you energy. Didn't work that way for me-- but does for many people.

Honore

 

Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:06:44

In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43

Then you for the information. Tofu is actually wonderful just sliced up with oil and vinegar. I'll see if I can find the information on marination.
namaste
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:09:10

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17

Honore,
jkshrews gave me this link too. It is a good link. I don't think all that much research has been done on soy and MAOIs but this one is pretty complete.
Thank you.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:14:22

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

I take seroquel at night (25mg) and have had to double the dose some nights. It would be great if this was an early side effect that passed! I could live with the wide dreams but not the no sleep.
Thanx again,
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:17:30

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03

Having been on every other antidepressant in the world, including Provigil, the energy really is amazing and what a relief!
I'm so used to the seroquel that the double dose doesn't bother me much. I also take klonpin but I hate to increase it because it is sooo hard to get off.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans

Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43

ps.
Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
Thanx again.
Zana.
Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!

 

Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem

Posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22

In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14

Zana,

If you have bipolar disorder, it might be really important to stick with the Abilify or the Seroquel. (But I can't figure out why you are taking them both.) Both are effective anti-manics, and Seroquel is now approved to treat bipolar depression. For a person with BD, this would be a primary treatment, and EMSAM would be only an adjunct. If you have high irritability (which is really just dysphoric hypomania) I think the Seroquel or Abilify is right on target. I don't know how well it works for euphoric types. If you are thinking of it as a sleep med, that is just a side-effect. (You could just as well take Benedryl for the same side-effect.)

These agents should not be called "atypical antipsychotics," which is why I call them "antimanics" when used in the context of BD. Better yet would be to call them by some common feature of chemical structure, as is the case with benzodiazepines, tricyclics, etc., rather than by disease conditions they are currently used to treat.

Info on the breakdown process of any drug can be found in the package insert in a section on clinical pharmacology. It assumes you know the related biochemistry. What the insert won't usually tell you is little facts such as Parnate is different from D-amphetamine by only a single chemical bond and, in addition to being an MAOI, it is active at the same receptor site as D-amphetamine.

People with BD frequently have a very fragile circadian rhythm that is easily upset by exposure to artificial lighting after sunset. In fact, the manic-depressive aspect of the disorder, i.e., mood cycling, might be caused largely by artificial lighting. Some experiments have shown that if a person with BD is placed in an environment with a purely natural day-night lighting cycle, the mood cycling aspect of the disorder trails off and goes away in about 6 months. Rozerem (rameltheon) simulates a total black-out by activating the melatonin receptors in the brain. I say it cancels the "Thomas Edison effect." So it is conceivable that it might be an effective remedy for mood cycling if taken very regularly over the long course of time. It is still important to turn off unnecessary lights in the evening, maybe wear sunglasses if you watch TV, etc. (Or don't watch TV, read email, etc., after 7 PM) A very helpful book about sleep hygiene is "The Promise of Sleep."

Rozerem does not make you go to sleep. It just makes it possible to sleep after a week or two of regular use, if you have a disturbed circadian rhythm. Although it might genuinely help you if you need it, it is not sedating and will not directly counteract the amphetamine effect of EMSAM or Parnate. It will just shut off the lights.

There is another melatonin-oriented drug called Valdoxan (agomelatine), but I don't know if it is out yet or how they intend to use it.

jkshrews

> ps.
> Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
> Thanx again.
> Zana.
> Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!

 

Re: Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem jkshrews

Posted by zana on April 10, 2007, at 9:20:18

In reply to Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem, posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22

I was put on both abilify and seroquel as antidepressant augementation. I found the abilify (2mg) gave me a lift, ( I get vegetative symptoms,) but also made me hypoglycemic and pooped out after a month or so. I am still on it just because my pdoc is so careful about changing only one thing at a time. I don't know if the seroquel had any therapeutic effect but it knocks me out and helped me regulate my sleep cycle.
I would like to get off the abilify simply because I suspect it is making no contribution and the ensam seems to be doing a good job so far. This is about 10weeks in.
I too read the product insert but I don't read the chemistry careful. I skim for the half life and elimination data.
I think you make a really good point about the classification of meds. Abilify is actually listed as a tranquillizer in the online search engine I use.
Zana

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by Kneeko on January 14, 2006, at 3:09:34

> K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
>
>
> Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
>
>
> The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
>
>
> If Nardil helps, giving these up will be no problem, but just wondering what Fast Food is Go and what isn't from the Major Chains. Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input

Can someone please answer the above question regarding eating soybean oil while taking Nardil. I am planning on starting Nardil in a few days and have found that most of the foods I eat have soybean oil listed in the ingredients. Do you find the diet too restrictive to warrant the medications? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by jkshrews on August 6, 2008, at 8:13:14

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

You have probably read that soy sauce is a problem. That is because it is aged and thus contains a good deal of tyramine. It is nothing inherent in soy beans. Soy bean oil is not a problem.

> > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> >
> >
> > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> >
> >
> > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> >
> >
> > If Nardil helps, giving these up will be no problem, but just wondering what Fast Food is Go and what isn't from the Major Chains. Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
>
> Can someone please answer the above question regarding eating soybean oil while taking Nardil. I am planning on starting Nardil in a few days and have found that most of the foods I eat have soybean oil listed in the ingredients. Do you find the diet too restrictive to warrant the medications? Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>

 

Re: MAOI diet + whey protein

Posted by mickapoo on August 6, 2008, at 9:25:09

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

> > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> >
> >
> > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> >
> >
> > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> >
> >
>> One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
>

Whether the diet is too restrictive to warrant taking the medication is a personal choice- personally I would live on fresh veggies, fresh fruit, and lean meats alone if I had to just to get out & stay out of a dark hole. It just depends on how much your condition is affecting your life, and how much you are willing to sacrifice to change it.

Regarding the whey protein- I did read that "protein supplements" are a no-no, but I asked my pharmacist and she said they were ok, but seeing as they have often time been proven wrong, I decided to start with a little bit and work my "whey" up (lol). I started with quarter scoop, then half scoop, now have realized I can have my protein shakes with no ill effects.

 

Re: MAOI diet + soy products

Posted by mickapoo on August 6, 2008, at 9:28:26

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 6, 2008, at 8:13:14

> You have probably read that soy sauce is a problem. That is because it is aged and thus contains a good deal of tyramine. It is nothing inherent in soy beans. Soy bean oil is not a problem.
>
> > > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> > >
> > >
> > > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
> >

I have found the same to be true- soy products are ok, it's soy sauce that is the problem.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by bobbiedobbs on August 7, 2008, at 1:10:16

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

I wouldn't worry at all about soybean oil in fast food products. I've taken MAOIs for over 20 years and eaten hundreds of times at fast food chains with nary an incident. You may wish to refer to any of the numerous studies of MAOs and soy and soy-based products.

Please don't stay away from MAOIs because of the circa 1970 dietary restrictions, many of which, unfortunately, are still in circulation. Some of these lists would have you avoid things like chocolate, raspberries, pizzas (including cheese/pepperoni ones) from major chains like Pizza Hut and Dominos, processed cheese slices, bottled or canned beer, and virtually all alcohol - the evidence nonewithstanding. You should avail yourself of the more recent (mid 90's) and beyond MAOI dietary lists from places like Univ Sunnybrook at Toronto.

That said, it is always better to err on the safe side re these medications, because of the potential consequences. Hopefully some of the other posters on this list can advise you accordingly. Good luck. While the side effects are to be reckoned with, if they can be tolerated this can be very helpful medication.

Phil

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 7:43:56

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04

The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.

The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by blueboy on August 7, 2008, at 11:28:05

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 7:43:56

> The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.
>
> The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.

I'm pretty sure there have been Nardil deaths from Demerol.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by Justherself54 on August 7, 2008, at 12:04:59

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 7:43:56

> The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.
>
> The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.

Why is Parnate the most dangerous MAOI? I'm on it and hearing that 20 people have died from a hypertensive crisis is very frightening...

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 22:16:12

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by Justherself54 on August 7, 2008, at 12:04:59

> > The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.
> >
> > The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.
>
> Why is Parnate the most dangerous MAOI? I'm on it and hearing that 20 people have died from a hypertensive crisis is very frightening...
>
>

Around 20 people, as I recall, at the time I researched this about two decades ago....

It seems the severity of hypertensive reactions of MAOIs increases with the chemical similarity to d-amphetamine. Of all the MAOIs, Parnate happens to be the most similar to d-amphetamine. If I recall correctly, it is different from d-amphetamine by a single chemical bond. That is why it is stimulating and appetite suppressing. In addition to being an MAOI, it is active at the amphetamine receptor.

But, this similarity to d-amphetamine may also mean that it is the strongest and most effective MAOI. (My speculation.)

I would not worry too much, but I would be very well informed about what not to eat and drink, and what meds to avoid.

http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/parnate_pm_02242006.pdf

Also, you might carry an antidote with you. Get a small prescription of Thorazine (chlorpromazine) 25 mg. Buy the larger size steel pill fob at the drug store and carry some of the pills with you. If you get a sudden headache while at a restaurant after drinking that glass of red wine you should not have had, take 50 mg of the Thorazine before heading to the ER. By the time you get to the hospital and get help, you might already have absorbed enough to start getting better. (There is also some other drug that is now used as an MAOI hypertensive crisis antidote, but I don't know what it is.)

I also recommend getting a card for your wallet that says you are taking Parnate (tranylcypromine), an MAOI, and must not be administered sympathomimetic drugs of any kind. That way, if you end up at an ER in an unconcious state for some reason, they won't accidentally kill you.

It is also good to know the name of the correct ER drug for treating a hypertensive crisis (and maybe carry a list of the forbidden drugs) for the ER doctor. The treatment drug is called Rogitine (phentolamine) injectable. I have a friend who was on Parnate, went to a restaurant in a small town, drank red wine, and suddenly got a splitting headache. His wife took him straight to the little local hospital. Fortunately, this friend is himself an ER doctor, and knew what treatment he needed. They did not stock Rogitine at this place, so the small-town doctor on duty wanted to give him demerol, which would have killed him. (My friend was able to ride the episode out. He didn't know about the Thorazine avenue of treatment.)

 

Re: MAOI diet short list jkshrews

Posted by Justherself54 on August 8, 2008, at 12:36:46

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 22:16:12

I wear a medical alert bracelet and have been to the ER once with very high BP (no headache tho). I adhere strictly to the diet and don't experiment with any foods I feel may put me at risk, although I think chocolate has now been shown to be OK (thank goodness).

I'd rather err on the side of caution and forgo some foods than end up in a crisis situation because of experimentation.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list

Posted by mickapoo on August 8, 2008, at 15:52:27

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list jkshrews, posted by Justherself54 on August 8, 2008, at 12:36:46

> I wear a medical alert bracelet and have been to the ER once with very high BP (no headache tho). I adhere strictly to the diet and don't experiment with any foods I feel may put me at risk, although I think chocolate has now been shown to be OK (thank goodness).
>

Just curious, being new to Nardil... if you didn't have the headache, how did you know that your blood pressure was skyrocketing? Is there another symptom that initially tipped you off?

 

Re: MAOI diet short list mickapoo

Posted by Justherself54 on August 8, 2008, at 15:59:28

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by mickapoo on August 8, 2008, at 15:52:27

No..I have a home blood pressure monitor and just decided on a whim to take my BP before I went to bed...I dismissed the first reading, but the subsequent three were really high. I'm not sure what caused it...the only thing that differed from my normal routine was I ate out that night, but it was steak and fries, unless the heavy steak spice had something in it that didn't agree with the Parnate.

 

Re: MAOI diet short list Justherself54

Posted by Mickapoo on August 8, 2008, at 16:38:21

In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list mickapoo, posted by Justherself54 on August 8, 2008, at 15:59:28

> No..I have a home blood pressure monitor and just decided on a whim to take my BP before I went to bed...I dismissed the first reading, but the subsequent three were really high. I'm not sure what caused it...the only thing that differed from my normal routine was I ate out that night, but it was steak and fries, unless the heavy steak spice had something in it that didn't agree with the Parnate.

Once it got really high, did you have any physical symptoms? Or would you not have known about it had you not had a blood pressure monitor? Also, did you just take something for it, or did you also go to the hospital?


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