Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 829948

Shown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 12:04:22

It has been 6 years since my ADD diagnoses. It wasnt until I was sure I tries as hard as I could and realized my limitation that I realized I did need meds. I need help.

I first tried strattera. Bag of yuk. Next Adderall.

My first dose of 20mg XR was great but a bit speedy. Next day it had mellowed a bit and third day there was no noticable benifits. I called my Dr and she told me that was a small dose and I could go up to 60mg of XR taken at once. I didnt want to go that high so I experimented with different doses. I would get a small headache and and the appetite suppresing effects but nothing else. When I tried 40mg XR I felt nothing.No side effects no nothing. I took this as a sign and jumped up to 60mg XR and it worked. I felt relaxed but motivated, energetic but easygoing. It was perfect. However that was the last of it since my Dr had prescibed the lowest amount. I waited one week and recived my new script for 60mgXR. (2 30s a day)

The first TWO days were great and then it was like a knob was lowered. I could feel the drug in my body, but had no real effects. I continued taking it hoping something would change and within 3 more days I was sure...I was feeling NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL! Even the dry mouth and appatite suppresion was gone. I have developed tolerance in 2-3 days!!!

I can not call my old DR as we had an argument because she would not prescibe generic and I am a cash patient. I have had an intake appoint with my states mental health provider and will see a Dr in 2 weeks.

I am afraid because I have not been able to find many accounts of this on line. I wrote to "ask an expert" and the Dr. who replied to question said he "found it hard to believe what I am saying" on another add Drs blog a person had commented that their vyvanse stopped working and he said if you are developing a tolerance that fast there is something wrong and get checked immediatly. I am afraid there is something wrong with me.

I am also afraid because I got a glimpse, TWICE, of how my life could be, what I could do with the right med. I was afraid of many when I decided to try stimulants, but this was not one of them. I did read on this board about the guy like me, 3 day tolerance, who added menmine (sp) and was able to stop his tolerance. But how do I convince my DR to try that with me? I am not sure my new Dr will even believe me. And what will I do....I cannot go on like this and I need help.

Thank you for reading this far and if anyone could tell me what is wrong with me I would sure appriciate it!

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by bulldog2 on May 19, 2008, at 13:11:16

In reply to This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 12:04:22

> It has been 6 years since my ADD diagnoses. It wasnt until I was sure I tries as hard as I could and realized my limitation that I realized I did need meds. I need help.
>
> I first tried strattera. Bag of yuk. Next Adderall.
>
> My first dose of 20mg XR was great but a bit speedy. Next day it had mellowed a bit and third day there was no noticable benifits. I called my Dr and she told me that was a small dose and I could go up to 60mg of XR taken at once. I didnt want to go that high so I experimented with different doses. I would get a small headache and and the appetite suppresing effects but nothing else. When I tried 40mg XR I felt nothing.No side effects no nothing. I took this as a sign and jumped up to 60mg XR and it worked. I felt relaxed but motivated, energetic but easygoing. It was perfect. However that was the last of it since my Dr had prescibed the lowest amount. I waited one week and recived my new script for 60mgXR. (2 30s a day)
>
> The first TWO days were great and then it was like a knob was lowered. I could feel the drug in my body, but had no real effects. I continued taking it hoping something would change and within 3 more days I was sure...I was feeling NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL! Even the dry mouth and appatite suppresion was gone. I have developed tolerance in 2-3 days!!!
>
> I can not call my old DR as we had an argument because she would not prescibe generic and I am a cash patient. I have had an intake appoint with my states mental health provider and will see a Dr in 2 weeks.
>
> I am afraid because I have not been able to find many accounts of this on line. I wrote to "ask an expert" and the Dr. who replied to question said he "found it hard to believe what I am saying" on another add Drs blog a person had commented that their vyvanse stopped working and he said if you are developing a tolerance that fast there is something wrong and get checked immediatly. I am afraid there is something wrong with me.
>
> I am also afraid because I got a glimpse, TWICE, of how my life could be, what I could do with the right med. I was afraid of many when I decided to try stimulants, but this was not one of them. I did read on this board about the guy like me, 3 day tolerance, who added menmine (sp) and was able to stop his tolerance. But how do I convince my DR to try that with me? I am not sure my new Dr will even believe me. And what will I do....I cannot go on like this and I need help.
>
> Thank you for reading this far and if anyone could tell me what is wrong with me I would sure appriciate it!

I tried adderall years ago and developed tolerance in three days also. Tried ritalin and developed tolerance quickly. A former babbler andrewb found that taking a drug called memantine prevented the tolerance to adderall. He to would poop out in three days. Once he was stablized on memantine the tolerance disappeared. Google this site for memantine and you will find lots of info. Google andrewb+memantine for his posts.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2008, at 16:27:34

In reply to This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 12:04:22

Go to pubmed. Once there, in the search box type in memantine. Plan on a couple hours. Read every abstract of memantine. You will discard many as they won't seem to apply to you much. But you will come across ones that do apply to you, such as preventing stimulant tolerance or pain medication tolerance, or improving symptoms that match yours. Anything you find that can make your case, print it.

Search the archives here too. Anything that makes your case, print it.

Take everything you have printed to the doctor. Memantine is available in a starter pack. Don't ask for a longterm trial of memantine, just ask for the starter pack to see if you tolerate it. Stress to the doctor that memantine side effects are generally mild compared to most drugs, and that giving the starter pack a trial run isn't risky. If the doc is still reluctant, just ask for a one week prescription. With some polite force, be sure he understands you really really want to at the very least just try it.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 16:44:31

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2008, at 16:27:34

Thanks for the replies.

Can anyone tell me WHY this is happening and why I cant seem to find anything about it on-line?

And to the person who said they developed a quick tolerance of adderall and ritalin...if you didnt try the mematine what did you do? How do deal with your add symptoms? Meds? Supplements?

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by bulldog2 on May 19, 2008, at 17:50:24

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 16:44:31

> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Can anyone tell me WHY this is happening and why I cant seem to find anything about it on-line?
>
> And to the person who said they developed a quick tolerance of adderall and ritalin...if you didnt try the mematine what did you do? How do deal with your add symptoms? Meds? Supplements?

Really not on any add meds right now. Tried memantine so I wouldn't have tolerance issues but had to abort that trial due to bad headaches.Some say magnesium will also prevent tolerance issues.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by blueboy on May 21, 2008, at 8:11:18

In reply to This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 19, 2008, at 12:04:22

> My first dose of 20mg XR was great but a bit speedy. Next day it had mellowed a bit and third day there was no noticable benifits. I called my Dr and she told me that was a small dose and I could go up to 60mg of XR taken at once. I didnt want to go that high so I experimented with different doses.

Well, you doctor's hostility is partially your fault. Although I'm 100% on your side about the generic thing, you probably lost all his trust by filling a prescription and then experimenting with it, without his knowledge. You need to get a doctor you can work with.
My suggestion would be, get a new doctor and

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 21, 2008, at 13:04:52

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by blueboy on May 21, 2008, at 8:11:18

Let me clarify..
Dr told me it was Ok to jump from 20 to 60. NOT something I wanted to do...I "experiemnted" at the doses in between. 20, 30, when I got to 40 and the side effects had disapeared I thought that was a good thing, now I see it was just tolerance.
>
> Well, you doctor's hostility is partially your fault. Although I'm 100% on your side about the generic thing, you probably lost all his trust by filling a prescription and then experimenting with it, without his knowledge. You need to get a doctor you can work with.
> My suggestion would be, get a new doctor and

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by undopaminergic on May 24, 2008, at 16:53:07

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by bulldog2 on May 19, 2008, at 17:50:24

> > Thanks for the replies.
> >
> > Can anyone tell me WHY this is happening and why I cant seem to find anything about it on-line?
> >
> > And to the person who said they developed a quick tolerance of adderall and ritalin...if you didnt try the mematine what did you do? How do deal with your add symptoms? Meds? Supplements?
>
> Really not on any add meds right now. Tried memantine so I wouldn't have tolerance issues but had to abort that trial due to bad headaches.Some say magnesium will also prevent tolerance issues.
>

Dextromethorphan is another alternative for preventing tolerance that works for some people.

Another option is to try different stimulants, such as methylphenidate, dexmethylphenidate (Focalin), and modafinil. Sometimes even dextroamphetamine may be a better choice than Adderall.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 24, 2008, at 19:12:51

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by undopaminergic on May 24, 2008, at 16:53:07

Undopa,

So just because this is happening with adderall does NOT mean it will happen with ritalin type stims? Thats good news...I was prescibed focalin though and I never really noticed anything at all when I took it.

On the addfourms someone just posted regarding the info I found here (repeated elsewhere) about nmda antagonists and tolerance. I dont know the original author...Anyway this person said they believed the *nmda antagonists as tolerance reducer* was wrong. He writes
"
The observation means at most you can lower the
dose of a stimulant when used in combination with a
NMDA antagonists. Its easy to see how a person
would confuse reduce tolerance and drug potentiation.
Ultimately your likely merely taking a second stimulant.
"'

I wish there was more data, I also wished I could find more personal accounts. I have read where some people used dxm and it "worked" but these were people who did not have tolerance issues like mine. They just wanted to protect themselves. IF their tolerance wasnt going up anyway than who can say if it "worked"?

I am still willing to try, and I am still hoping the original "mementine" poster might see this OR anyone who has THIS problem and has been sucesfull solving it. (Yes, I believe bulldog has this kind of idiosyncratic tolerance, but has not been able to test the mementine theory due to side effects yes?) So anyone???

I did a test dose 6 days after last dose (and had only taking it 6 days total to begin with) and found that my tolerance is still solid at 30mg. Some slight cns effects but my second 30mg dose did not kick in so all effects gone in 5 hours. Thats pretty scary. I thought I might be able to get a few days a week...I am going to give it another week and I AM going to try DXM as it is the only thing available to me. If one more week isnt enough, I will wait a month and be ordering mementine from an international source.

I suppose I can either be the person who PROVES nmda antagonists reduce (or delay) tolerance, OR I will be able to say they do not. At least for me.

Right now, I am wondering if anyone has hard facts regarding time and tolerance lowering. I think I read an abstract at pubmed that said d2 downregulation still shown at 3 days but not after 14. But Im a dunce and those abstracts are above me.

Also, I still have not decided to to tell Dr. I think not at first as official protocal is to stop stimulant therapy with adhd when compleate tolerance develops.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by undopaminergic on May 25, 2008, at 17:20:32

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 24, 2008, at 19:12:51

>
> So just because this is happening with adderall does NOT mean it will happen with ritalin type stims?
>

Yes, or at least, it's my general impression from what I've read as well as from personal experience that tolerance to methylphenidate is much milder and faster to reverse.

> Thats good news...I was prescibed focalin though and I never really noticed anything at all when I took it.
>

That suggests that "Ritalin-type" stimulants may not be powerful enough for you. Possibly, the use of this type of stimulant in combination with low doses of sulpiride or amisulpride might be a solution. Sulpiride and amisulpride enhance the release of dopamine by blocking D2 autoreceptors.

Ritalin, Focalin, and cocaine inhibit the reuptake of dopamine (and noradrenaline); they prolong the action of naturally released neurotransmitters. Amphetamines, on the other hand, reverse the direction of the dopamine transporter and so effect the release of large quantities of neurotransmitters that would not have been releaesed naturally. (Interestingly, by blocking the dopamine transporter, cocaine or methylphenidate can block the action of amphetamines.)

One problem with amphetamines is that they have a tendency to produce changes that can take a long time to reverse. For example, in brain scans mapping the binding of radiotracers to the dopamine transporter protein, binding is significantly reduced in chronic amphetamine users (or abusers), and this change isn't found after long-term cocaine abuse.

> I wish there was more data, I also wished I could find more personal accounts. I have read where some people used dxm and it "worked" but these were people who did not have tolerance issues like mine. They just wanted to protect themselves. IF their tolerance wasnt going up anyway than who can say if it "worked"?
>

Quite so, but there have been a few reports from people having tolerance problems with amphetamines suggesting that it does work. On the other hand, I don't think it would work for everyone.

Personally, I've found that memantine has some stimulant-like effects of its own, and therefore it's somewhat difficult to say how much of its effects are a result of its reduction of tolerance to stimulants, as opposed to stimulant effects of its own. It's my impression, however, that it does enhance the effects of methylphenidate to some extent, although it's not really sufficient for my purposes. I think the combination with amphetamines may be more successful than with methylphenidate.

>
> Right now, I am wondering if anyone has hard facts regarding time and tolerance lowering. I think I read an abstract at pubmed that said d2 downregulation still shown at 3 days but not after 14. But Im a dunce and those abstracts are above me.
>

I've recently discovered that the downregulation of D2-receptors may be a result of stimulation of kappa-opioid receptors by dynorphin - an endogenous opioid neurotransmitter. Therefore, the use of kappa-opioid antagonists like buprenorphine in combination with stimulants is a promising approach to solving the problem of tolerance. I don't know of anyone who has tested this.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 25, 2008, at 19:29:16

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by undopaminergic on May 25, 2008, at 17:20:32

Thanks so much for all this info. It is quite alot to think about. I feel like if nothing else I am certainly learning something about my BRAIN.


Possibly, the use of this type of stimulant in combination with low doses of sulpiride or amisulpride might be a solution.
*********Is this something a Dr would be OK with?

> Quite so, but there have been a few reports from people having tolerance problems with amphetamines suggesting that it does work.
*********Can you show me where? I am desprate for HOPE right now.

> Personally, I've found that memantine has some stimulant-like effects of its own, and therefore it's somewhat difficult to say how much of its effects are a result of its reduction of tolerance to stimulants, as opposed to stimulant effects of its own.
*********WHAT??? Are you saying you dont know if it is working as a tolerance reducer or their just enhancing each other? I lose adderalls helpful effects after 2 days, by 6 days I become tolerant to even the annoying side effects. I AM going to try this and if the mementine helps me get more than 3 days out of adderall then I guess it works. For what I need anyway.

Therefore, the use of kappa-opioid antagonists like buprenorphine in combination with stimulants is a promising approach to solving the problem of tolerance.
**********Im on both...obviously no help to me...(whaaaaaa!!!!)

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by undopaminergic on May 26, 2008, at 10:48:18

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 25, 2008, at 19:29:16

>
> Possibly, the use of this type of stimulant in combination with low doses of sulpiride or amisulpride might be a solution.
> *********Is this something a Dr would be OK with?
>

I don't think it's a controversial combination in any way, but unfortunately, neither sulpiride nor amisulpride are FDA-approved, so you would probably have to import them.

> > Quite so, but there have been a few reports from people having tolerance problems with amphetamines suggesting that it does work.
> *********Can you show me where? I am desprate for HOPE right now.
>

See the "Neurotransmitters" board on this site, or search the web for suitable keywords (memantine, amphetamine, tolerance, etc.).

> > Personally, I've found that memantine has some stimulant-like effects of its own, and therefore it's somewhat difficult to say how much of its effects are a result of its reduction of tolerance to stimulants, as opposed to stimulant effects of its own.
> *********WHAT??? Are you saying you dont know if it is working as a tolerance reducer or their just enhancing each other?
>

Approximately. It's also difficult to rule out the possibility of more complex interactions between the drugs - for example, they may potentiate each other in some ways, and antagonise each other in other ways.

> I AM going to try this and if the mementine helps me get more than 3 days out of adderall then I guess it works. For what I need anyway.
>

I wish you good luck.

>
> Therefore, the use of kappa-opioid antagonists like buprenorphine in combination with stimulants is a promising approach to solving the problem of tolerance.
> **********Im on both...obviously no help to me...(whaaaaaa!!!!)
>

That's quite a coincidence! How often to you take buprenorphine, and at what dose? Do you find tolerance to be a problem with this drug too?

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 27, 2008, at 14:28:17

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by undopaminergic on May 26, 2008, at 10:48:18

I have been on bupe for 2 years. Started at 12mg and am now down to about 6. (breaking it is inexact)
I cant say I have ever noticed a tolerance problem with it. I did notice some slight effect for the first 2 months...cant say euphoric but a feeling of well being. But that went away and I had never really expected it anyway. Other than that it has been amazing for me. It has compleatly blocked any cravings I might have, (although I am very motivated anyway...dont want to take that away from myself.) and I have never noticed any funky symptoms when I have gone down in dose. Im a little nervous about 4 mg.

So thats my story...

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 5:30:28

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by mari stella on May 27, 2008, at 14:28:17

> I have been on bupe for 2 years. Started at 12mg and am now down to about 6. (breaking it is inexact)
> I cant say I have ever noticed a tolerance problem with it. I did notice some slight effect for the first 2 months...cant say euphoric but a feeling of well being. But that went away and I had never really expected it anyway. Other than that it has been amazing for me. It has compleatly blocked any cravings I might have,
>

Cravings for food, cocaine, opiates, or everything?

> (although I am very motivated anyway...dont want to take that away from myself.) and I have never noticed any funky symptoms when I have gone down in dose. Im a little nervous about 4 mg.
>

If you want to reduce your dose, memantine may be useful for that purpose also. See:
http://www.drgeorgedavidson.com/ebixa_getting_off_methadone.htm
and: http://www.drgeorgedavidson.com/ebixa_memantine_experience.htm

However, I don't think it would be good idea to quit it entirely, because its blockade of kappa-opioid receptors is quite beneficial for the dopamine system. I wonder what the ideal dose might be in the long term.

Did you not experience any sedative effects at the higher doses? Or perhaps high doses are less sedative? I notice some sleepiness-like effects at a dose as low as 0.3 mg (intranasal), but I've just started it, so I'm expecting side-effects to diminish, and some of them already have. My initial experience is that it's really good for my ADD, at least when used in combination with methylphenidate.

 

Re: This CAN NOT be possible!

Posted by mari stella on May 28, 2008, at 16:33:32

In reply to Re: This CAN NOT be possible!, posted by undopaminergic on May 28, 2008, at 5:30:28


> Cravings for food, cocaine, opiates, or everything?
>
Craving for mid-morning banannas.

Thank you so much for this info. I was about to give up on this memantine thing and then you dropped this bomb on me. I feel like it is serendipdous. Kismit. I fear WD from bupe because of the paws but hate the idea of being on forever. I was self medicating my add w/ opiates and couldnt use add medication. Now I have hope for both problems....

Thanks so much Un-D.!


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