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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on July 22, 2007, at 18:52:02
In reply to SSRI brain damage, posted by mattye on July 22, 2007, at 16:25:22
I knew nothing good could come of them anything article to back it up? Love Phillipa
Posted by steel on July 22, 2007, at 23:33:54
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » mattye, posted by Phillipa on July 22, 2007, at 18:52:02
> I knew nothing good could come of them anything article to back it up? Love Phillipa
Again with the totaly inapproaite pointless posts,but im sure ill be CIVILY WARNED.
He/she,the poster did not state a fact,but is asking for opinions.
Can you not tell the differance,which is why you somehow felt the need to respond as if a fact was stated?
Your response to this post is scary for so many reasons,just two off the top of my drugged noggin are..
1.I really believe you have some problems to where you HAVE to respond to every post.An ocd type behaviour,as it doesent seem to matter if your posts has any benifit,or at many times releavence.
2.How can you be incorperated here and still be so clueless at times to topics you should have a mininmal understanding of by now?
So im sure the brigrade will as usual come running to your rescue,but i know your secret,you email everyone and probuably speak to enough people behind the scenes that they pretty much defend you even when the same issue comes up again and again.You can attack my post people,as im sure on que you will,you can banish me moderators,still so i know that as bad of grammer i have,i still post with some sort of releavence,some sort of reasoning,some sort of information or answer that in hopes contributes.
Also people can spin this,but ill say it ahead of time,this HAS NOTHING to do with how nice and sweet and supportive and loved phillipa is,wouldent matter if she was a man,woman,old,young,etc,
This also is not aganist posts that are at times simply just supportive with no much more,thats totaly appreciated.
Its instead about a person obsessed with posting,and in turn is allowed to break rules as if never seen many o many posts that should be re directed to social done so,as well as just simply cause people time when they believe someone is responding to them with something to help.
My main reason for saying this is phillpa is involved in so many ssris threads,that i believe its insulting to make the statement she did here,HELL,OOPS HECK the poster themselves dident even do that,but instead used a ? form of back drop to there post.Its time this is nipped in the bud,how many threads will be washed away because phillipa made behind the scenes friends.How much cleaerer does this issue that obviously DOES Matter to some people have to be ignored.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2007, at 9:02:24
In reply to SSRI brain damage, posted by mattye on July 22, 2007, at 16:25:22
> I have read so many contradictory studies. Some say that SSRIs are neuroprotective and help the brain recover from stress. I have also read that SSRIs cause long term damage to seretonin axons that is similar to MDMA.
>
> What am I to think? Am I slowly lobotomizing myself? I'm worried
>
> MattCan you give examples of studies showing damage? I only ask because the ones I've read were of such poor quality they should never have ever been published. Like the "corkscrew" paper. It would make for a good liner for a bird cage, but not much else.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2007, at 9:06:36
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by steel on July 22, 2007, at 23:33:54
I can only suggest that if a particular poster is getting under your skin somehow, that you modify your own behaviour to accomodate that experience. Just don't open those posts.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 9:43:50
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » steel, posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2007, at 9:06:36
My personal hunch is that yes SSRI's can cause certain forms brain damamge (mainly over time). I believe the paucity of such evidence more reflects a lack of quality funding for such studies than it does proove a true lack of danger.
The only antidepressants with a clear cut, and repleatedly demonstrated ability to *protect* against certain ravages of mood disorders are lithium, tianeptine, certain TCA's, and possably other anticonvulsants.
SSRI's for instance, show only weak ability to protect against cortisol induced glutamate toxicity. Some studies I have come across show an exaserbation of stress induced glutamatergic neurotoxicity. SSRI's can also often lead to long term increases in cortisol levels.
Indeed, the following study shows that fluoxetine worsens the effect of escape restraint stress on neuronal placticity.
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/22/9/3638
Some other considerations are the following: SSRI's can decrease melatonin levels. Melatonin has strong neuroprotective capacity, and lowering its levels may have negative consequences on neuronal health.
There have been hints that both the SSRI's and lithium may increase the risk of developing parkinsons. There is a study showing that patients treated with SSRI's develop neuroanatomical changes in the thalamus.
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/22/9/3638
Other possabilities including increasing lipid peroxidation by lowering the seizure threshold. Apparently sertraline has the ability to increase lipid peroxidation by a pro-convulsant mechanism.
See:
SSRI's will enhance neurogensis in certain hippocampal subfeilds. Other neurotransmitters are involved in hippocampal placticity too however. Acetylcholine, dopamine, norepinephrine etc all promote neurogenesis in certain brain regions. Boosting serotonin too high may enhance neurogenesis in certain brain regions at the expense of other brain regions.Just my own personal thoughts.
Linkadge
Posted by steel on July 23, 2007, at 10:54:26
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » steel, posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2007, at 9:06:36
Your right,ive already expressed my feelings on this matter,and continuing to do so last night was only counter productive for anyone.
I was in a lot of pain and anger i have never felt before,and although i dont bite my tongue on what i said,i do for having said it again,i hope someone can understand i was at a 0 on the 1-10 meter and looking to fist fight anything i knew could hurt me.
Very bad night,sorry i brought the anger here,i hoped to have left this topic alone period,and i went aganist my own views that it is counter productive.
I have a list of people i upset last night,i dont think i can handle addressing them all either,which will prob just make me look all the more worse as if i dont care.
Well ill leave the leather counch now,again all i can say was sorry for bringing my night,and anger to this site last night.
Posted by Racer on July 23, 2007, at 12:02:00
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 9:43:50
> The only antidepressants with a clear cut, and repleatedly demonstrated ability to *protect* against certain ravages of mood disorders are lithium, tianeptine, certain TCA's, and possably other anticonvulsants.
Can you offer any links to articles about tianepine's neuroprotective properties? I've talked to my pdoc about it, and it's on my list of "sure sounds like it might be worth a try" medications, so if you've got something I can take in...
>
> Some other considerations are the following: SSRI's can decrease melatonin levels. Melatonin has strong neuroprotective capacity, and lowering its levels may have negative consequences on neuronal health.
>Do you think taking a melatonin supplement could help with this? Or would it just not be absorbed properly?
Thanks!
Posted by 10derheart on July 23, 2007, at 12:38:57
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » mattye, posted by Phillipa on July 22, 2007, at 18:52:02
> I knew nothing good could come of them
..to the feelings of others, such as the many posters here who take SSRIs.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
Respectfully,
10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob(Sorry for not using my "Deputy" posting name - I am currently having a password issue with that name.)
Posted by 10derheart on July 23, 2007, at 12:39:05
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by steel on July 22, 2007, at 23:33:54
> Again with the totaly inapproaite pointless posts,
> Your response to this post is scary for so many reasons
> 2.How can you be incorperated here and still be so clueless at timesPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
> and in turn is allowed to break rules
Please follow the site guidelines by using the 'Notify the Administrators' button found at the bottom of each post if you believe another poster has broken a rule here, instead of posting about it on the boards.
Finally, please follow the site guidelines by posting on PB Admin when you change your posting name - http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#names
Since you were asked to be civil by Dinah very recently, I'm going to block you from posting for a week.If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action, **including adjusting the length of your block according to the new blocking formula.**
Respectfully,
10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob(Sorry for not using my "Deputy" posting name - I am currently having a password issue with that name.)
Posted by Deniseuk190466 on July 23, 2007, at 13:22:22
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 9:43:50
Hi Linkadge,
I'm totally clueless when it comes to chemistry but I can't understand why some tricyclics would be neuroprotective and yet ssris can cause problems.
Don't tricyclics pretty much do the same as SSRIs but affect other neurotransmitters as well, causing the side effects (which I never had incidently when I took them years ago).
Denise
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 13:38:37
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » linkadge, posted by Racer on July 23, 2007, at 12:02:00
This was an interesting study:
http://www.come-over.to/FAS/tianeptine.htm
Note, the author makes the destinction that his results *cannot* be extrapolated to other antidepressant agents.
There are tons of other studies however. Typing something along the lines of "tianeptine + neuroprotective" will likely yeild many results.
I have thought about combining melatonin with an SSRI. I think ones best bet would be to use a short acting SSRI (perhaps paxil) at as low a dose as possable (in the morning), and to combine it with some sort of 5-ht2a antagonist in the evening. (5-ht2a antagonists appear to reverse the 5-ht2a mediated supression of cortisol release).
The only caution is, that melatonin may actually reverse the antidepressant effect of fluoxetine and desipramine!
See: (look under heading: Antidepressant medications)
http://www.adam.com/democontent/IMCAccess/ConsSupplements/Melatonincs.html
My own personal theory on that is that the antidepressant effect of the SSRI's is acutally mediated by alteration of sleep cycles. Perhaps, by normalizing sleep patterns, melatonin actually blocks the mechanism of these antidepressants.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 13:58:14
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage - To Linkadge, posted by Deniseuk190466 on July 23, 2007, at 13:22:22
Good question.
I think its got to do with the fact that TCA's block the 5-ht2/3 receptors in addition to their effects on monoamine uptake. Kind of like combining a SSRI with an atypical antipsychotic.
The problem is that while activation of certain serotonin receptors may promote placticity during stress, the activation of others may actually exacerbate stress induced hippocampal morphology.
For instance, activation of 5-ht3 & 5-ht2 receptors can cause anxiety and neurotransmitter release. Blocking these receptors may not only enhance the antidepressant effect of serotonergic compounds, but can also possably do more to prevent such alterations.
For instance, 5-ht2a antagonists alone, can prevent stress induced hippocampal restructurization.
Thats just what I gather.Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on July 23, 2007, at 20:31:32
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 9:43:50
In my experience, I am almost positive that they caused brain damage. My emotions aren't the same, my sex drive has been permanently hindered, my memory was effected, motivation and passions destroyed. These were never problems before I started ssri's. And as for studies..
(Antidepressant-elicited changes in gene expression: remodeling of neuronal circuits as a new hypothesis for drug efficacy.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15975701(Long-term adaptive changes induced by serotonergic antidepressant drugs.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16466303
(Persistent sexual side effects after SSRI discontinuation.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16636635
(Genital anaesthesia persisting six years after sertraline discontinuation.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16709553
Posted by Phillipa on July 23, 2007, at 21:45:58
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by mike lynch on July 23, 2007, at 20:31:32
Mike thanks and what drug class are you using or did you use for depression or anxiety. Don't understand how they can call anxiety depression and use an SSRI for anxiety when they make so many people anxious. It's like the body fights the med and then quits fighting and no more anxiety? No formal reports just my own theory. Love Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 8:31:50
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2007, at 9:43:50
> SSRI's for instance, show only weak ability to protect against cortisol induced glutamate toxicity. Some studies I have come across show an exaserbation of stress induced glutamatergic neurotoxicity. SSRI's can also often lead to long term increases in cortisol levels.
>
> Indeed, the following study shows that fluoxetine worsens the effect of escape restraint stress on neuronal placticity.
>
> http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/22/9/3638....during exposure. I don't mean to sound argumentative, but the issue for me would be whether the stress reaction rebounded to more normal parameters after the drug had worn off.
> Some other considerations are the following: SSRI's can decrease melatonin levels. Melatonin has strong neuroprotective capacity, and lowering its levels may have negative consequences on neuronal health.
>
> There have been hints that both the SSRI's and lithium may increase the risk of developing parkinsons. There is a study showing that patients treated with SSRI's develop neuroanatomical changes in the thalamus.
>
> http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/22/9/3638You inadvertently pasted in the same link for the first paper.
> Other possabilities including increasing lipid peroxidation by lowering the seizure threshold. Apparently sertraline has the ability to increase lipid peroxidation by a pro-convulsant mechanism.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.ijp-online.com/article.asp?issn=0253-7613;year=2004;volume=36;issue=1;spage=42;epage=43;aulast=RizwanThe researchers do not report the dose of sertraline. Moreover, it appears to have been injected. At best, the concerns are suggestive for further research. I know of no link between sertraline and seizure in humans.
> SSRI's will enhance neurogensis in certain hippocampal subfeilds. Other neurotransmitters are involved in hippocampal placticity too however. Acetylcholine, dopamine, norepinephrine etc all promote neurogenesis in certain brain regions. Boosting serotonin too high may enhance neurogenesis in certain brain regions at the expense of other brain regions.
>
> Just my own personal thoughts.
>
>
> LinkadgeI'm really concerned by certain interpretations of studies like these. Time-dependent regulatory changes are not evidence of damage.
This is my philosophy of science I'm applying. Empirically, I see no evidence of anything I would call damage, here.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2007, at 9:11:09
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 8:31:50
>during exposure. I don't mean to sound >argumentative, but the issue for me would be >whether the stress reaction rebounded to more >normal parameters after the drug had worn off.Hey, don't worry. I like discussion. There are a few other possable mechanisms. Apparently fluoxetine decreases the reuptake of glutamte. (I think hyperforin does as well). This may be more the mechanism of enhanced toxicity.
>You inadvertently pasted in the same link for >the first paper.Sorry, this is the one I was referring to:
http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/2/163-a
>The researchers do not report the dose of >sertraline. Moreover, it appears to have been >injected. At best, the concerns are suggestive >for further research. I know of no link between >sertraline and seizure in humans.Most antidepressnats need to be used cautiosly in individuals with epilepsy as many can often worsen the underlying seizure disorder. It is possable that even subseizure kindling like activity may tax neuronal circutry.
>I'm really concerned by certain interpretations >of studies like these. Time-dependent regulatory >changes are not evidence of damage.
Well it depends what one means by regulatory changes. I wouldn't consider, for instance, fluoxetine drop in melatonin levels, a necessary drug mechanism. There are plenty of non depressed people with normal melatonin levels. Lowering melatonin levels can also lower the seizure threshold.
Although there are many possable side effects that could lead to toxicity, I personally believe that negative studies are more influenced by lack of money and publication bias.
I'll be the first to admit that I havn't proven anything.
But I would like to think that I come out ahead in the end :)
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 9:19:59
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by mike lynch on July 23, 2007, at 20:31:32
> In my experience, I am almost positive that they caused brain damage. My emotions aren't the same, my sex drive has been permanently hindered, my memory was effected, motivation and passions destroyed. These were never problems before I started ssri's.
Same for me. But....
Untreated depression does all those things. I have seen no convincing evidence that any antidepressant fully reverses the effects of the underlying disorder. In other words, the disease is free to progress, even in hidden ways, during periods of "treatment". Neither of us is the same as we were before treatment.
Individual vulnerabilities to specific stressors, including the treatments themselves, could be all there is to it. There's so much we don't understand. Just take a look at this preliminary summary of nutritional stress caused by medication: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/index.htm (select drugs/depletions
I know, for myself, that when I entered into drug treatment, the choice was stark. What I had, untreated depression, was sufficient to motivate me to try just about anything, to find relief.
Lar
Posted by BobS. on July 24, 2007, at 10:34:26
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » mike lynch, posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 9:19:59
Rozerem the sleep drug is an antagonist at M1 and M2. Any chance that this drug could act in a beneficial way in addition to sleep promotion.
Tx,
BobS.
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2007, at 10:57:59
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage Rozerem???, posted by BobS. on July 24, 2007, at 10:34:26
I'm not sure. It might help improve insomnia due to drug therapy, but I would imagine that rozerem would not confer the same antioxidant properties of natural melatonin(?)
Linkadge
Posted by mike lynch on July 24, 2007, at 18:45:38
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » mike lynch, posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 9:19:59
> > In my experience, I am almost positive that they caused brain damage. My emotions aren't the same, my sex drive has been permanently hindered, my memory was effected, motivation and passions destroyed. These were never problems before I started ssri's.
>
> Same for me. But....
>
> Untreated depression does all those things. I have seen no convincing evidence that any antidepressant fully reverses the effects of the underlying disorder. In other words, the disease is free to progress, even in hidden ways, during periods of "treatment". Neither of us is the same as we were before treatment.
>
> Individual vulnerabilities to specific stressors, including the treatments themselves, could be all there is to it. There's so much we don't understand. Just take a look at this preliminary summary of nutritional stress caused by medication: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/index.htm (select drugs/depletions
>
> I know, for myself, that when I entered into drug treatment, the choice was stark. What I had, untreated depression, was sufficient to motivate me to try just about anything, to find relief.
>
> LarYa maybe for some people, but not for me. I had mild depression, and the SSRI's caused symptoms I never even had before, which were worse then the original symptoms I was trying to combat. Even when I wasn't depressed these symptoms still persisted, i've fought long and hard with whether or not it was depression or the drugs, when I lost most of my sex drive at age 20, and started experiencing ejaculatory anhedonia, I realized unequivocally that the drugs were the culprit, nothing else mase sense. Couple that with experiences I have found on the internet that relay the exact same thing, I'm pretty much positive of the distinction between the condition and the drugs.
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2007, at 21:17:32
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage, posted by mike lynch on July 24, 2007, at 18:45:38
I would kind of have to admit to similar things.
After discontinuing the SSRI's I have problems I never had before them. Yes, I may have had low sex drive, but now I have literally no sensation downstairs.
I also (still) have strange ballance problems. I walk into walls etc. I never had any of this before, infact I was very well co-ordinated.
I have some strange head twisting sensations. They started on zoloft (a feeling like my head is being twisted to the left). I had them for a year on zoloft and was told they were just temporary or not related.
I have difficulty playing the piano. No, I certainly have the motivation and interest, I just can't get my fingers to move the same way.
I practice everyday, but am nowhere near where I was before taking SSRI's.My handwriting is gone down the tubes. It used to be very good, I just can't seem to get the fine control.
The list goes on.
I know, I know. Lots of other possable reasons. I have given up on trying to convince others, doctors etc. I mean I know how the meds affected me, thats all I care about.
Linkadge
Posted by Netch on July 27, 2007, at 11:00:52
In reply to SSRI brain damage, posted by mattye on July 22, 2007, at 16:25:22
> I have read so many contradictory studies. Some say that SSRIs are neuroprotective and help the brain recover from stress. I have also read that SSRIs cause long term damage to seretonin axons that is similar to MDMA.
>
> What am I to think? Am I slowly lobotomizing myself? I'm worried
>
> MattI think many of the "toxic effects" comes from SSRIs side effects like anxiety and insomnia; these symptoms are known to be hazardous to the brain.
Posted by Netch on July 30, 2007, at 4:54:00
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » mike lynch, posted by Larry Hoover on July 24, 2007, at 9:19:59
Lar, what meds are helping you?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 30, 2007, at 9:57:03
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » Larry Hoover, posted by Netch on July 30, 2007, at 4:54:00
> Lar, what meds are helping you?
Nothing, just now. I've never found a drug that works, that I can tolerate. I've developed some health problems that may well be beyond the scope of medication, in any case: complex regional pain syndrome, (probable) fibromyalgia, complex PTSD, and Microsoft Windows. ;-)
I'm just beginning to investigate the Internet pharmacy world, for alternatives not otherwise available to me. We shall see.
Lar
Posted by Netch on July 30, 2007, at 10:07:45
In reply to Re: SSRI brain damage » Netch, posted by Larry Hoover on July 30, 2007, at 9:57:03
> > Lar, what meds are helping you?
>
> Nothing, just now. I've never found a drug that works, that I can tolerate. I've developed some health problems that may well be beyond the scope of medication, in any case: complex regional pain syndrome, (probable) fibromyalgia, complex PTSD, and Microsoft Windows. ;-)
>
> I'm just beginning to investigate the Internet pharmacy world, for alternatives not otherwise available to me. We shall see.
>
> Lar
>I'm sorry to hear this. Pain syndrome, fibromyalgia and PTSD can all be challenging on their own as well as Microsoft software.
This is the end of the thread.
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