Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 754663

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41

It's now day six since I started the Parnate and the effects I'm noticing is extreme tiredness. So far, I've taken about 800 mgs of caffeine tabs today and it works for about an hour or two, but then I'm sleepy all over again.

Before starting the Parnate, I was on Desoxyn, which was wonderful b/c I NEVER got tired or fatigued during the day at all. And it never interferred with my sleep (provided I took it in the mornings).

But now, I feel so incredibly fatigued (and I'm still only on 20 mgs; I'll go up to 30 mgs this Friday - and I think that the theraputic dose is at least 60 - 80 mgs, isn't it?).

My doc is adamant that I not take any stimulants while on MAOI's (he's doesn't even want me on Provigil - which I understand is a totally different class of med than the amphetamines).

So will the Parnate fatigue diminish with time? I sure hope so, b/c as it is, I'm finding it very hard to be productive at anything.

Malcolm

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by Honore on April 30, 2007, at 14:49:19

In reply to Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41

For many people, the fatigue does diminish. It didn't for me-- I spent about four years only semi-conscious-- which, for me, was actually a plus. But the constant need to sleep was pretty awful. I was never quite sure if it was because it disrupted my sleep, or if there was some independent effect.

I also found that it became less on higher doses. So, first, it usually does become much less; and second, if you take more Parnate, it probably will significantly remit. I tend to be highly sensitive to certain elements of these meds, so I never took enough to feel alert-- but I think you chances of having that effect are very very slim.

Keep going up before you make any decision.

Good luck, Honore

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by football on April 30, 2007, at 19:03:52

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Honore on April 30, 2007, at 14:49:19

Find something online that says an MAOI + Provigil is OK and show your doc. Great, great, drug for wiping out my nardil fatigue.

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by KayeBaby on April 30, 2007, at 19:25:22

In reply to Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41

How long have you been taking stims?

I normally am terribly fatigues when I go off of them.

Some it might just be withdrawel from Desoxyn.

Peace,
Kaye

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2007, at 19:58:01

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by KayeBaby on April 30, 2007, at 19:25:22

I don't get it I thought Parnate especially was supposed to give you a lot of energy???? Why would you take it if it doesn't sounds like a depressing drug as I said I don't get it????Love Phillipa

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? Malcolm64

Posted by Jedi on April 30, 2007, at 20:56:57

In reply to Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41

> It's now day six since I started the Parnate and the effects I'm noticing is extreme tiredness. So far, I've taken about 800 mgs of caffeine tabs today and it works for about an hour or two, but then I'm sleepy all over again.
>
> Before starting the Parnate, I was on Desoxyn, which was wonderful b/c I NEVER got tired or fatigued during the day at all. And it never interferred with my sleep (provided I took it in the mornings).
>
> But now, I feel so incredibly fatigued (and I'm still only on 20 mgs; I'll go up to 30 mgs this Friday - and I think that the theraputic dose is at least 60 - 80 mgs, isn't it?).
>
> My doc is adamant that I not take any stimulants while on MAOI's (he's doesn't even want me on Provigil - which I understand is a totally different class of med than the amphetamines).
>
> So will the Parnate fatigue diminish with time? I sure hope so, b/c as it is, I'm finding it very hard to be productive at anything.
>
> Malcolm

Hi Malcom,
We are kind of in the same boat when it comes to somnolence on Parnate. I'm up to 80mg after two months and I'm still really tired in the afternoon. I'm thinking of pushing to 100mg to see if that will help the tiredness go away.

Don't even think of using street methamphetamine with Parnate (not to say you would). That would probably be one of the fastest ways to die from a drug interaction. Desoxyn is a long lasting stimulant that isn't used much because of the bad rep of the street version. Anything made on the street is going to vary greatly in strenght and contaminants. Stimulants can be used as augmentation for MAOIs, but only under the care of a very good psychopharmacologist. I would guess that modafinil(Provigil) would probably work pretty good, I hope you have good health insurance. The stuff is not cheap. My doctor was dead set against augmenting MAOIs with any stimulants until I showed him about 10 studies where it was done safely.
Good Luck,
Jedi

 

WHY? Because it takes time to kick in (nm) Phillipa

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:19:06

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2007, at 19:58:01

 

I'm still tired on Nardil after four weeks Malcolm64

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:25:15

In reply to Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Malcolm64 on April 30, 2007, at 13:42:41

It is a very common side effect, and just about everyone I've come across in Dr. Bob that took either Parnate or Nardil (though NOT Emsam) had it in the beginning stages. It is supposed to lesson or go away in time.

Mine has gotten better each week, but it's still my No. 1 issue. Like you I take caffeine pills (up to 200mg), and I should probably take an energy drink (loaded with caffeine). There are also some other contributing factors with me on Nardil: Insomnia (longest continious sleep is four hours) and low BP.

Football is right, though: Provigil seems to be the best drug to combat this side effect. Havent tried it yet, but will consider in future. I just dont want to add any more drugs right now.

Hang in there. Proud of you.

 

Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ....

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:28:41

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? Malcolm64, posted by Jedi on April 30, 2007, at 20:56:57

The positive of the fatigue has been greatly reduced anxiety, which is the only reason I am taking Nardil. I am so tired I don't feel anxious nearly as much. I dont feel depressed either. I just feel tired.

So this is new to me. Usually when I do not sleep well, it makes my anxiety 100 times worse. Not this time and not sure why.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by Malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 6:32:51

In reply to Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ...., posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:28:41

> The positive of the fatigue has been greatly reduced anxiety, which is the only reason I am taking Nardil. I am so tired I don't feel anxious nearly as much. I dont feel depressed either. I just feel tired.
>
> So this is new to me. Usually when I do not sleep well, it makes my anxiety 100 times worse. Not this time and not sure why.

Well it's ony day 7 or 8 of the Parnate and I'm still only on 20 mgs, but I slept really great last night. So that's either b/c the med isn't working at all, I'm on too low a dose for the insomnia to start to become a problem, or I need to be on a higher dose for the theraputic effect to kick in (or all three).

But I had a date last night, and I felt like a nervous teenager for most of the time. So the med is obviously not working (yet). When I was on Nardil about a year ago, I felt so relaxed during these social encounters, it was almost like having had 6 or 7 cocktails withtout ever being drunk. And I don't drink.

So obviously, I'm anxious to get the same effect. I'll keep ya'll posted...

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by Malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 6:37:34

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by KayeBaby on April 30, 2007, at 19:25:22

> How long have you been taking stims?
>
> I normally am terribly fatigues when I go off of them.
>
> Some it might just be withdrawel from Desoxyn.
>
> Peace,
> Kaye

I've been on Desoxyn for the last 5 or 6 months. GREAT drug for wiping out daytime fatigue. Didn't really do anything for my ADD symptoms though.

It could be withdrawal from the Desoxyn, but I've always had a problem with daytime fatigue, regardless of which meds I was on.

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?

Posted by willyee on May 1, 2007, at 10:35:17

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2007, at 19:58:01

> I don't get it I thought Parnate especially was supposed to give you a lot of energy???? Why would you take it if it doesn't sounds like a depressing drug as I said I don't get it????Love Phillipa


You should know by now from reading on this drug that its not black and white phillipa.What drug is?

Parnate is activating,but its not a stimulant or claimed to be one,so along with a stimulant effect there will be various other effects,inlcuding sedating type effects.

If this wasnt the case parnate would simply be a stimulant which it is not.

As for the poster and the situation on having a date,well guy 20 mg is know where near therputic,not even close,especialy with all these formualtion changes.

Also unless u hit the right dose,and then add something like klonpin,parnate will never posess the same effect as nardil,nardil is a different form of drug altoghter,as well as having an extreme differance of parnate due to nardils very unique effect on gaba.

Parnate i believe decreases gaba so its more for a cant get out of bed depression than a anxiety or social effect.


The latter is my problem,however due to tons of reading i have no personal doubt the formulation change had a dramatic effect on nardil,and its not the GOLD STANDERD it once was,or else id leave parnate for it in a heart beat.

Now it seems absurd high doses as with parnate are needed for nardil,as well as side effects from hell,weight gain,sexual dysfuntction,and it seems they both will act the same given parnate is used in conjunction with gaba drugs,so im not willing to go on nardil as i would have in the past.


Phillipa,no insult,but you being such a veteran here should not leave doubt in posters minds by contributing to confused information,as with emsam you waited so long and collected so much information on it,yet we never heard about it again,assuming u did not take it,but u seemed terrified of it.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . Malcolm64

Posted by Quintal on May 1, 2007, at 12:09:07

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 6:32:51

>But I had a date last night, and I felt like a nervous teenager for most of the time. So the med is obviously not working (yet). When I was on Nardil about a year ago, I felt so relaxed during these social encounters, it was almost like having had 6 or 7 cocktails withtout ever being drunk. And I don't drink.

Parnate is unlikely ever to have that effect Malcolm, because as willyee said, one of Nardil's metabolites increases GABA throughout the brain while Parnate decreases it and (usually at high doses) has a stimulant effect. I don't think I've seen anyone have a good response to Parnate for anxiety without adding a benzo or other GABAergic drug to it. I'd say Parnate is a drug more likely to increase anxiety than reduce it - it's probably best for unmotivated, apathetic depressives but can also be good for counteracting the apathy and sedation (and maybe depression) associated with benzos in people who are using them for anxiety.

Q

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . Malcolm64, posted by Quintal on May 1, 2007, at 12:09:07

> >But I had a date last night, and I felt like a nervous teenager for most of the time. So the med is obviously not working (yet). When I was on Nardil about a year ago, I felt so relaxed during these social encounters, it was almost like having had 6 or 7 cocktails withtout ever being drunk. And I don't drink.
>
> Parnate is unlikely ever to have that effect Malcolm, because as willyee said, one of Nardil's metabolites increases GABA throughout the brain while Parnate decreases it and (usually at high doses) has a stimulant effect. I don't think I've seen anyone have a good response to Parnate for anxiety without adding a benzo or other GABAergic drug to it. I'd say Parnate is a drug more likely to increase anxiety than reduce it - it's probably best for unmotivated, apathetic depressives but can also be good for counteracting the apathy and sedation (and maybe depression) associated with benzos in people who are using them for anxiety.
>
> Q


I'm just curious: where are you getting this information from? B/C my doc has prescribed Parnate for exactly that reason: to reduce social anxiety. As I've said in my previous posts, he thinks that it's a more powerful MAOI than Nardil, which is why we're trying it. Nardil was wonderful, but it slowly stopped working after about four weeks after it kicked in.

But what a wonderful four weeks they were!! I don't recall being so relaxed and anxiety-free in my life...EVER. Of course, what it really was was a typical MAOI hypomanic reaction. It was truly a miraculous transformation, but again it only lasted a short while.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . malcolm64

Posted by Quintal on May 1, 2007, at 19:24:30

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47

Although Parnate and Nardil are both MAOIs they are different drugs with different effects. MAOIs in general tend to have an activating, stimulant effect which often increases nervous tension. Think EMSAM, selegiline, moclobemide etc.

Nardil is unique in boosting GABA, and therefore being anxiolytic and calming. There are some studies re: Nardil's effect on GABA and its metabolite phenylethylidenehydrazine here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_DocSum&db=pubmed&cmd=Display&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=11754874. This is probably where the similarities to drunkenness come from - many people here have said the same thing.

I'm not sure how your pdoc is judging the power of each MAOI. Parnate is certainly a powerful drug, but probably less effective *for anxiety* as a monotherapy than Nardil for the reasons I've already explained. There's more info on the differences between Parnate and Nardil here: http://www.psychotropical.com/maois_full.shtml. This doesn't mean Parnate isn't effective for anxiety, especially in combo with a benzo, but taken as a monotherapy it has quite a different feel to Nardil.

Q

 

Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? willyee

Posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2007, at 19:32:45

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired?, posted by willyee on May 1, 2007, at 10:35:17

Will pdoc said no too stimulating for me. Love Phillipa maybe someday.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .... UgottaHaveHope

Posted by FredPotter on May 2, 2007, at 4:35:11

In reply to Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ...., posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 1, 2007, at 3:28:41

I found to my surprise on Nardil that I was hardly taking any Xanax. Just forgot. I guess it's the GABA effect of Nardil

 

You'll never know for sure Phillipa

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 2, 2007, at 4:40:24

In reply to Re: Do all MAOI's make you this tired? willyee, posted by Phillipa on May 1, 2007, at 19:32:45

No disrespect, but some of the past things that your pdocs have suggested to you and you posted on here seem quite questionable.

Emsam does seem to give ppl a little energy boost, but every med affects everyone differently. You will never know unless you try. Ever.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by willyee on May 2, 2007, at 6:57:04

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by malcolm64 on May 1, 2007, at 18:33:47


> I'm just curious: where are you getting this information from? B/C my doc has prescribed Parnate for exactly that reason: to reduce social anxiety. As I've said in my previous posts, he thinks that it's a more powerful MAOI than Nardil, which is why we're trying it. Nardil was wonderful, but it slowly stopped working after about four weeks after it kicked in.

Quintal stated the technical reasons perfect,or at least what we can rely on as true in the world of data sheets.Thats the chemical reasoning.

NOW i can contribute what is only a opioniated response,this from the use of the drug,and reading on it for 5 years now.

In theory and likly true depression itself is slaughter on the average persons personality,it steals you of so much,the cymbalta commercial is sly in its marketing for this reason as in there commercial they show the husband quiet at dinner,...the employee shaken at work,and other various images as this.

A strong anit depressant response can for some allow them to access there personality a bit more,sometimes too much,but the AIM i believe is for confideance,which leads to motivation,which leads to possably a smile on your face,maybe a smirk,and likly if someone doesent feel doomed and feels some form of hope then they will approach social situations more strongly,back in a corner less,and come out of a shell more.

The only anaology i can use is...

Parnate acts as if a boxer was scared cold in his corner,when working,the boxer will stand tall with confidence,and possably even motivated to head out to the fight.The fear of even loosing might not bother him,as a sense of high confidence is alive.


Nardil on the other hand will have similiar reactions,but unlike parnate where the urge is usualy to be go go go nardil the fighter might actual not see a reason to fight and instead invite his oppenaent to a beer to chat.


Here you see how both drugs impact a persons social behaviour,i just find parnate unlike nardil on its own will never provide a robust social response to where the need to interact is strong.

Parnate kinda gives u the ability to be ok with being alone,or having little social interaction,just secure in knowing u can if needed.


Nardil seems to give an actual DESIRE for it as well.


Parnate however is stronger and faster,so for people on a last thread it might be a better choice for them,where as later on they can opt to switch to nardil.

Nardil takes more time to settle in,and side effects usualy show before benifit,which require patieance on the person,some people might not be in a spot to deal with this.


So parnate does pack a faster,harder punch.

Nardil less,but more solid when settled in.


As a doc choosing the two,id recomend parnate for the desperate grabbing straws imobile patient.This is to get them from point a to b fast.

For the frustrated fed up patient,id use nardil,letting them know how crucial patiaence is with this med.


In the end,parnate with a gaba agent,or nardil possably with some sort of stimulant as needed would be a choice id have to discuss with the patient as they both come close to the same long term effect.

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 9:14:09

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by willyee on May 2, 2007, at 6:57:04

>The only anaology i can use is...
>
>Parnate acts as if a boxer was scared cold in his corner,when working,the boxer will stand tall with confidence,and possibly even motivated to head out to the fight.The fear of even loosing might >not bother him,as a sense of high confidence is alive.


That's pretty much what I wanted to add to my post after I'd gotten the technical stuff out of the way willyee. Yeah, Parnate can be helpful in social anxiety disorder not so much because it reduces anxiety, but because it makes you feel so speedy and confident while it works - and that's totally different to the mellow contentment of Nardil, so if you're looking for that you're unlikely to get it with Parnate - that's all I was saying in my earlier post Malcolm, not pooh-poohing the idea of Parnate for social anxiety.

'High' is a good way to describe the sensation of when Parnate works. Parnate felt like coke when I was taking 80-120mg, better than coke in fact. I don't think I could have tolerated a dose so high without a hefty dose of Klonopin either, and I don't think Parnate would have worked for me at all in doses below 40mg. I think this is more or less true of most people taking it for social anxiety, so I would give up on it until you've reached a dose where you're feeling that kind of effect. For most people that's at least 40mg, usually much higher.

Q

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 19:46:27

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 9:14:09

Since I have no desire to feel high the opposite to be able to sit still I guess these meds are out for me. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . Phillipa

Posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 20:19:16

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 19:46:27

I think it's been explained many times before that Nardil would probably be a very good med for you Phillipa - because of the calming and anxiolytic effect it usually has, but I'm not going down the route of trying to persuade you to take it if you don't want to.

Q

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . Phillipa, posted by Quintal on May 2, 2007, at 20:19:16

> I think it's been explained many times before that Nardil would probably be a very good med for you Phillipa - because of the calming and anxiolytic effect it usually has, but I'm not going down the route of trying to persuade you to take it if you don't want to.
>
> Q

Not to discourage anyone here from posting, but why does Phillipa keep posting messages if she doesn't actually use or intend on using any of the meds discussed? I would think that the board is most helpful to others if the messages are being posted by people who are actually using or have experience with these meds.

It's not a criticism, just an observation.

Malcolm

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been . Malcolm64

Posted by Phillipa on May 2, 2007, at 21:29:13

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23

The only meds I haven't used are MAOI's and EMSAM. Now would you use a med one just one person's opinion or would you throughly research it first which is what I am doing and will keep doing. Then I will be in a situation to make a decision whatever that may be. Love Phillipa

 

Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been .

Posted by KayeBaby on May 2, 2007, at 23:31:09

In reply to Re: Ironically, POSITIVE of the fatigue has been ., posted by Malcolm64 on May 2, 2007, at 20:30:23

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I am facinated by pharmecueticals and also enjoy researching anything that catches my interest.

It has been very beneficial to me to get to know the different personalities here and how they respond to different agents. It has broadened my view of how meds work. I could not possibly have gotten this much insight from reading just studies or dry med package inserts.

I have gotten good direction here and enjoy the comraderie. Most people do not want to hear about ones day to day med details. I want to tell mine and learn about others'.

This place is a psyche-meds goldmine. Even if I became cured of everything that ails me I would still find PB facinating and would read the boards often.

I don't see why Phillipa's presence and pace of psychotrophic drug consumption (or lack thereof) to be worthy of singling out.

Take Care,
Kaye


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