Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 746993

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Re: This pisses me off. linkadge

Posted by FredPotter on April 4, 2007, at 21:24:38

In reply to Re: This pisses me off., posted by linkadge on April 4, 2007, at 18:57:10

I think we jsu agreed

 

Re: This pisses me off.

Posted by linkadge on April 4, 2007, at 21:52:00

In reply to Re: This pisses me off. football, posted by FredPotter on April 4, 2007, at 21:23:22

Well, you know how it goes. Apparently life is acutally not about feeling good. It is about......well, who the hell knows what they think it is about.


Linkadge

 

patients have been sold out

Posted by med_empowered on April 5, 2007, at 5:31:59

In reply to Re: This pisses me off., posted by linkadge on April 4, 2007, at 21:52:00

look, since the 70s, Big Pharma and shrinks have had a "partnership" that has effectively screwed over patients. The biopsychosocial model has given way to the bio-bio-bio model...even though alot of this "chemical imbalances" stuff isn't even supported by research.
I think psychiatry is unique b/c its the one field of medicine where treatment failure can be blamed on the patient. Still depressed? Maybe its...bipolar, personality disorder, non-compliance...so on and so forth. Imagine if you were told that your (flu, pneumonia, cancer, whatever) was still around b/c "You weren't trying hard enough," or "you weren't ready to change."
Shrinks can blame patients and keep on prescribing $$$ drugs, so they win, Big Pharma wins...too bad the patients lose.

 

Re: This pisses me off/My sentiments exactly.

Posted by stargazer on April 5, 2007, at 8:39:52

In reply to This pisses me off., posted by football on April 4, 2007, at 18:15:37

I am also pissed off, statred in 1994 when Roche stopped making the only med that worked for me, Marplan, saying there were so many other newer meds available that is was the best business decision for them. Thank you very much!

Years of struggling, not really living, alive on many SSRI's but dead at the same time, questioning everything in life, wanting to live, wanting to die, not knowing what I wanted.

Today, still pissed off, followed my pdocs advice unquestioningly for all the years since, not ever achieving another significant period of time free of depression.

Now in my final struggle to get this under control. Entering a new phase in my life. Had to stop working, turned a significant age, pissed off the meds touted as the 'latest and greatest' do nothing for me. Then only ones to dent the depression are still the MAOi's, but not as well as the early Nardil and Marplan did. Drug companies messing with something that worked well for me and many other because they did not make money from it!

I blame Pharmas for many of my current problems, changing formulas (Nardil, Parnate), discontinuing manufacturing of Marplan (Roche), little new effective meds for my type of depression (TRD),lots of new meds for standard depression (acute, unipolar, endogenous).

PISSED OFF everyday but getting help faster and better by pushing the envelope as the anger propels me forward. Wish I was angry the last 10 years or so, but the SSRI's made me happy and passive in life, short term solution not for a life long solution.

SG

 

Re: patients have been sold out

Posted by gardenergirl on April 5, 2007, at 9:13:18

In reply to patients have been sold out, posted by med_empowered on April 5, 2007, at 5:31:59

I can't help but wonder what gain there is in assigning the blame for one's mental and/or physical state to a business. What purpose does it serve? How does that help anyone to get well? Couldn't it be beneficial to direct that energy towards what is within one's control instead of what is not?

Curious.

namaste

gg

 

Re: patients have been sold out gardenergirl

Posted by linkadge on April 5, 2007, at 11:44:03

In reply to Re: patients have been sold out, posted by gardenergirl on April 5, 2007, at 9:13:18

>I can't help but wonder what gain there is in >assigning the blame for one's mental and/or >physical state to a business. What purpose does >it serve? How does that help anyone to get well? >Couldn't it be beneficial to direct that energy >towards what is within one's control instead of >what is not?

I think it is important because ultimately, for those with particular biochemical disorders, the hope of more effective medications is key. To be under the impression that the advancement of this research is significantly hampered or skewed by money is disheartening.

I think it is judicious to be angry at those responsable for changing the direction of such important research.

Its like hearing about corrupt 3rd world relief organizations, and the like. You know, where you give them 1$ a day to feed starving kids, and they use 95 cents of it on administrative costs.

Think of it this way. If lithium were discovered today to be effective in bipolar disorder, it would never see the light of day. What drug company in their right mind would waste the time?

Linkadge




 

And what about all the people these meds work for?

Posted by Racer on April 5, 2007, at 15:32:57

In reply to patients have been sold out, posted by med_empowered on April 5, 2007, at 5:31:59

Seriously -- all anti-depressants are effective for some patients. If one anti-depressant, or even a class of anti-depressants, hasn't been effective for you, that does not mean that the drugs themselves are worthless. It only means that they haven't worked FOR YOU.

What's more, there are a lot of reasons a medication might not work for someone, many having nothing to do with the effectiveness of the drug itself. Sometimes there are adverse effects that interfere with taking the medication -- I've experienced that a lot, with hypotension being the number one reason I've had to stop meds. Another problem might be an allergic reaction to fillers or binders in the formulation. I just experienced an allergic reaction to a generic fluoxetine, and would have moved to another drug if I hadn't taken Prozac successfully in the past. Sometimes it's sedation, or sexual side effects, or weight gain -- but none of those are really about whether or not the drug is effective.

But there's something that I really want to say about all this, because I think it's important for Babble as a community to keep in mind: There is hope, there are effective treatments, and these drugs do work effectively for many people who take them.

I suffer from depression. I have taken a laundry list of medications, many of which did not work, some of which made my symptoms worse, many caused adverse effects. But that's MY chemistry, it doesn't extrapolate to anyone else. SSRIs, while they obviously do not work for everyone, are a great step forward from the medications available before they came along. They're not more effective -- but they are safer, they have fewer side effects, they make treatment accessible to many people who would never have received treatment back when I started on medications. Back then, you had to be in pretty bad shape for anyone to bring up medications, because the side effects were so serious. That alone is a boon to mankind -- people for whom SSRIs work are getting effective treatment. We should be happy for them. And there are more studies being done about augmentation strategies, and algorithms for TRD, and all sorts of things. So they're not perfect yet? OK, they're working on it.

I get worried when I see this board turning towards an overwhelmingly negative view of medications. I think about when I first came here, how frightened I was by the drug I'd been prescribed, and how much I needed reassurance. If I came to the board as it is today, Thursday 5 April 2007, I don't think I would have taken that drug at all. And I don't think I'd be alive today, either. The support and encouragement I got here nearly ten years ago literally saved my life. I would hate to think of other people, in a similar condition, making a different choice based on reading some negative generalizations about medications on an internet bulletin board.

I'm not asking anyone to turn on the Pollyanna routine. I'm only asking that everyone think about balance, and remember that mileage varies. One of the things I think SLS brought to this board, aside from his gentle and caring nature, was a sense of balance. Many drugs did not work for him, and yet he was always beyond fair in his comments about them, and very encouraging to many people here. I don't expect that anyone can fill his posting shoes, because I think Scott is a very special person, but I do think that he would be a good role model for us all to keep in mind.

OK, I'm done now.

 

Re: patients have been sold out

Posted by Bonnie_CA on April 5, 2007, at 15:42:07

In reply to Re: patients have been sold out gardenergirl, posted by linkadge on April 5, 2007, at 11:44:03

Yes, drug companies want to do the bare minimum. Get you hooked for life on medications that barely help, so they can make big bucks. It's way more profitable than getting you on a medication that works, because once that drug patent runs out, they aren't making their bucks.

I wonder if the tune would change if those people making these decisions actually had to handle the people they were supposedly treating? Let's send some untreated (or unsuccessfully treated) bipolar patients to their homes, or have them pay the bills of the severely clinically depressed, or have them deal with the severely OCD person for a few weeks. I bet they'd feel more inclined to find a solution and not as inclined to line their pockets.

Why was my schizophrenic uncle taken off the medication that has worked for him SINCE THE 60S? Because there was something "newer and better". He ran away, and something happened where he died alone in the woods. (Heart attack? Stroke? We'll never know.) What was wrong with his old medication? It MIGHT cause some kind of heart problem. And somehow giving him a new medication (when he's 56) is going to "save" him? No, just big money for pharmaceuticals. I mean, if schizophrenics stayed on the drugs that worked for them, they wouldn't make money. And, I thought I'd mention, every single time they have tried him on one of those "new and improved, much better" drugs, he went crazy and had to be hospitalized. He had said (before this last episode) that he would rather die than go back to a hospital. I know the drug companies couldn't care less about how my uncle felt, and how it hurt our family trying to get him admitted when he had his episodes (almost always induced by a medication change). No, it isn't their problem. Their families are probably "sane" and they are fully insulated against the savage crimes they commit against "other" people's families.

It really hasn't been about the patients for decades. As long as they are making their monies, we can all suffer, and have our families torn apart, and lives disrupted, and dreams shattered. Just remember, that isn't their problem.

*sigh*

-Bonnie

 

Well, the SSRIs worked for me.

Posted by madeline on April 5, 2007, at 18:12:56

In reply to This pisses me off., posted by football on April 4, 2007, at 18:15:37

They don't work for everyone, but they did for me.

I haven't had an "couldn't get out of bed" episode in seven years. Seven years.

I remember when the prozac kicked in - will never forget it.

Now, I'm not saying that my life has been a bed of roses since then, but that medication at least gave me a life worth living.

Maddie

 

Re: Well, the SSRIs worked for me. madeline

Posted by Bonnie_CA on April 5, 2007, at 18:29:43

In reply to Well, the SSRIs worked for me., posted by madeline on April 5, 2007, at 18:12:56

I think the idea isn't so much that SSRIs are bad, or that they don't work for anyone, or that it's bad that the companies make these new drugs, but that they try to get you off of things that ARE working to get on their new drugs. Or they (the drug companies) discontinue the one that works for financial reason. They (the doctors influenced by companies) discourage people from trying old drugs. That's what's wrong.

-Bonnie

 

Re: patients have been sold out med_empowered

Posted by madeline on April 5, 2007, at 18:29:55

In reply to patients have been sold out, posted by med_empowered on April 5, 2007, at 5:31:59

"I think psychiatry is unique b/c its the one field of medicine where treatment failure can be blamed on the patient. Still depressed? Maybe its...bipolar, personality disorder, non-compliance...so on and so forth. Imagine if you were told that your (flu, pneumonia, cancer, whatever) was still around b/c "You weren't trying hard enough," or "you weren't ready to change."

I think what you are saying is correct for acute conditions, like the flu, pneumonia, cancer etc...

But chronic conditions such as depression, OCD, coronary artery disease, diabetes require a little more from the patient and the doctor.

If a patient has coronary artery disease, yeah sure there are cholesterol lowering drugs, but they've got to change their eating habits and exercise. They can even have surgery, but if they don't learn to manage their condition, odds are they'll be right back on the table.

If a patient has diabetes, sure insulin helps, but the patient still has to manage what they eat and monitor their own blood sugar. Otherwise, the patient is right back at square one.

I also think a similar model can be applied to some mental illness and conditions. Drugs can help, but ultimately the patient has to manage their own condition.

Now I'm not saying that getting better is something that we can just make happen by saying "okay I'm better", but a willingness to pick up coping skills, monitor our own state of being, work with doctors and keep an open mind about treatment options and therapies can only help.

Maddie

 

Re: And what about all the people these meds work for? Racer

Posted by Phillipa on April 5, 2007, at 18:43:26

In reply to And what about all the people these meds work for?, posted by Racer on April 5, 2007, at 15:32:57

Racer I agree and I think that maybe this was one of the things I was trying say in my thread about MAOI's as I e-mail with a lot of people who use babble but no longer come here cause it has changed a whole lot and they are successfully being happy and gained their lives back on an SSRI. I know in real life of many people who with a benzo and SSRI are working and very functional and happy. Just my take on things. Love Phillipa

 

Re: And what about all the people these meds work for? Racer

Posted by Exquilter on April 6, 2007, at 1:00:00

In reply to And what about all the people these meds work for?, posted by Racer on April 5, 2007, at 15:32:57

Thank you for a much needed, thoughtful, balanced post. My experiences have been similar to yours both with meds and this site.

Exquilter

> Seriously -- all anti-depressants are effective for some patients. If one anti-depressant, or even a class of anti-depressants, hasn't been effective for you, that does not mean that the drugs themselves are worthless. It only means that they haven't worked FOR YOU.
>
> What's more, there are a lot of reasons a medication might not work for someone, many having nothing to do with the effectiveness of the drug itself. Sometimes there are adverse effects that interfere with taking the medication -- I've experienced that a lot, with hypotension being the number one reason I've had to stop meds. Another problem might be an allergic reaction to fillers or binders in the formulation. I just experienced an allergic reaction to a generic fluoxetine, and would have moved to another drug if I hadn't taken Prozac successfully in the past. Sometimes it's sedation, or sexual side effects, or weight gain -- but none of those are really about whether or not the drug is effective.
>
> But there's something that I really want to say about all this, because I think it's important for Babble as a community to keep in mind: There is hope, there are effective treatments, and these drugs do work effectively for many people who take them.
>
> I suffer from depression. I have taken a laundry list of medications, many of which did not work, some of which made my symptoms worse, many caused adverse effects. But that's MY chemistry, it doesn't extrapolate to anyone else. SSRIs, while they obviously do not work for everyone, are a great step forward from the medications available before they came along. They're not more effective -- but they are safer, they have fewer side effects, they make treatment accessible to many people who would never have received treatment back when I started on medications. Back then, you had to be in pretty bad shape for anyone to bring up medications, because the side effects were so serious. That alone is a boon to mankind -- people for whom SSRIs work are getting effective treatment. We should be happy for them. And there are more studies being done about augmentation strategies, and algorithms for TRD, and all sorts of things. So they're not perfect yet? OK, they're working on it.
>
> I get worried when I see this board turning towards an overwhelmingly negative view of medications. I think about when I first came here, how frightened I was by the drug I'd been prescribed, and how much I needed reassurance. If I came to the board as it is today, Thursday 5 April 2007, I don't think I would have taken that drug at all. And I don't think I'd be alive today, either. The support and encouragement I got here nearly ten years ago literally saved my life. I would hate to think of other people, in a similar condition, making a different choice based on reading some negative generalizations about medications on an internet bulletin board.
>
> I'm not asking anyone to turn on the Pollyanna routine. I'm only asking that everyone think about balance, and remember that mileage varies. One of the things I think SLS brought to this board, aside from his gentle and caring nature, was a sense of balance. Many drugs did not work for him, and yet he was always beyond fair in his comments about them, and very encouraging to many people here. I don't expect that anyone can fill his posting shoes, because I think Scott is a very special person, but I do think that he would be a good role model for us all to keep in mind.
>
> OK, I'm done now.

 

Great post, Racer. Thanks. (nm) Racer

Posted by emme on April 6, 2007, at 9:06:00

In reply to And what about all the people these meds work for?, posted by Racer on April 5, 2007, at 15:32:57

 

Well said, you expressed my thoughts very well (nm) Racer

Posted by notfred on April 6, 2007, at 9:55:07

In reply to And what about all the people these meds work for?, posted by Racer on April 5, 2007, at 15:32:57

 

Re: patients have been sold out linkadge

Posted by gardenergirl on April 6, 2007, at 15:42:46

In reply to Re: patients have been sold out gardenergirl, posted by linkadge on April 5, 2007, at 11:44:03

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Link.

> I think it is important because ultimately, for those with particular biochemical disorders, the hope of more effective medications is key. To be under the impression that the advancement of this research is significantly hampered or skewed by money is disheartening.

I can see how that would feel bad. Hope is so important. And I can see if one had that impression, it would be hard to hope for a future, better med. I'd also suggest though, that it might be effective to focus on what's here now, and how best to use all the resources we have today, since none of us can predict what will come down the pike.
>
> I think it is judicious to be angry at those responsable for changing the direction of such important research.

I can see how someone could feel angry about this and express that anger. But then what? What has someone gained from expressing it, and how is that helping the path towards wellness? I'm not saying it can't help. I'm just wondering what benefit is there? And I suppose that I also wonder if in some cases, focusing on the negative aspect of the business of psychopharm might serve some other purpose. I wonder if in some cases, focusing a great deal on external negatives serves to "relieve" someone of self-efficacy. I wonder if it makes it easier for someone to believe, "I can't get better because the med business is so F-d up, and they will never come up with anything useful for me," versus "Well, meds can only do this much given what's out there now. What else will this take, and what can I do to get there?"

And to clarify, I'm not suggesting anyone here, specifically or generally, fits that pattern.

> Think of it this way. If lithium were discovered today to be effective in bipolar disorder, it would never see the light of day. What drug company in their right mind would waste the time?

I don't share this outlook. I suspect that how one frames their understanding of the business of mental health very likely is one factor in how they engage with and respond to various treatments--one of many factors, of course, with varying valence.

But if I go into it with the assumption that those I will be engaging with and all that are behind them, (i.e. the doc, the drug rep, the pharm co., etc.) are not interested in truly helping me, then I think that I'm going to be less likely to be helped. Whereas if I go into saying to myself, "Well, I have problems with this and that in this industry, but that doesn't mean that I should assume that this med is faulty in some way or won't work for me," I think I've created the possibility of a positive response. And I think that's important.

So yes, the negative aspects of Big Pharma surely squash hope, and that contributes to feeling worse. But, if we don't let that hope get totally squashed, and perhaps focus on the positives or on what we can control, I think ultimately we'll be headed in the right direction towards health.

I've often been accused of being too idealistic. And I know I am, even when the negatives of any reality ought to tell me otherwise. But you know, not letting the negatives change me or change my idealism...I think that's a good thing. I think it helps me keep going. At least for me, anyway.

Namaste

gg

 

Re: Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective

Posted by Sebastian on April 6, 2007, at 23:21:57

In reply to Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective, posted by gardenergirl on April 4, 2007, at 20:39:40

I have to say something good about SSRI's, I agree some are useless, celexa is good. Prozac and all the generics, remeron such.

Now if anyone says ZYPREXA sucks, totaly wrong. It has to be the best on the market.

Wellbutrin, excelent, at least in generic SR form.

But most of all the other AP's that are new, totaly useless. Yes I've tried most of them, risperdal, geodon, abilify, and some I don't even know the names of, which I must have been given in the hospital.

 

Re: Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective

Posted by esokev on April 6, 2007, at 23:54:15

In reply to Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective, posted by gardenergirl on April 4, 2007, at 20:39:40

SSRIs work for me... but the side effects are beyond intolerable... I think they are a horrid, over-hyped class of meds.

 

SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ...

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 7, 2007, at 1:20:26

In reply to Re: Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective, posted by esokev on April 6, 2007, at 23:54:15

I agree that SSRIs can be very effective. And I think a placebo can also be effective if your mind believes it is helping you (look at the studies).

Sorry to not be positive, but I took 15+ SSRIs for almost 10 years. They never affected me, but hey I may be "treatment-resistant" (whatever). SSRIs just wasted a lot of my time, my money and my hopes.

But every med affects everyone differently.

 

Re: Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective

Posted by Bonnie_CA on April 7, 2007, at 3:58:10

In reply to Re: Actually, SSRI's can be quite effective, posted by esokev on April 6, 2007, at 23:54:15

> SSRIs work for me... but the side effects are beyond intolerable... I think they are a horrid, over-hyped class of meds.

Over-hyped... quite. The way Big Pharmaceuticals puts it, SSRIs are going to save the world. Well, at least until the patent on a particular one runs out. Then... "look, we've made another SSRI! The world is saved yet again!" (yeah, okay.)

Congrats to those who have taken SSRIs for years with much success. They worked for me for awhile. Then I think my condition decided to finally show its ugly self in full view. And it's been a merry-go-round of medications ever since. WEeeeeEEEe!

I think advertising for prescriptions on TV should be banned again. If I have another person (who barely knows me and doesn't understand my condition) bring up Cymbalta again, or that stupid "your time for change" thingy again, I'm gonna scream.

Wow, I totally went off on a tangent. Gonna take awhile for the Lamictal to kick in. Until then, mindless babbling, vaguely related to the subject.

Boy, teaching next week is going to be an interesting time. Those poor kids! (wEEeeEEEee)

-Bonnie

 

Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... UgottaHaveHope

Posted by madeline on April 7, 2007, at 15:14:16

In reply to SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ..., posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 7, 2007, at 1:20:26

Yeah, you're right - it's a *placebo* effect.

Thanks

 

Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... Madeline

Posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 7, 2007, at 18:06:16

In reply to SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ..., posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 7, 2007, at 1:20:26

Im glad Prozac worked for you and hope it continues.

If it ever does poop out, you might want to consider Emsam patch, which is energizing like Prozac.

Good luck, Michael

 

Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... Madeline

Posted by madeline on April 7, 2007, at 18:30:29

In reply to Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... Madeline, posted by UgottaHaveHope on April 7, 2007, at 18:06:16

thank-you and best of luck to you too. I know that I am one of the lucky ones.

maddie

 

Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... Madeline

Posted by Phillipa on April 7, 2007, at 19:05:25

In reply to Re: SSRIs can be effective? Sorry but ... Madeline, posted by madeline on April 7, 2007, at 18:30:29

They work for my family members and a lot of neighbors. Love Phillipa

 

Re: This pisses me off.

Posted by squeekyCat on April 11, 2007, at 13:14:21

In reply to This pisses me off., posted by football on April 4, 2007, at 18:15:37

Neuroscientists know what drugs actually make people feel better; unfortunately, most are criminalized or tightly controlled. American culture is so conflicted about "feeling good".
We limit access to substances that produce that puritanical bugaboo, 'euphoria'; but peddle an endless supply of preposterous books and CDs that promise instant Utopia if we only think positive thoughts that will attract endless material wealth and emotional health. Our culture is best summed up by the fact that researchers are working on eliminating the euphoric properties of pain killers; even on our death beds, we mustn't find our opiates pleasurable.

I've always said -- study the pharmacokinetics of coccaine and create a less neurotoxic version of it.


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