Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 664625

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great statement JerryPharmStudent

Posted by pseudoname on July 7, 2006, at 9:35:37

In reply to Re: stimulants for depression? nickguy, posted by JerryPharmStudent on July 7, 2006, at 3:18:14

> There's more stigma attached to mental illness than there is to using stimulants for depression.

Jerry, that's a great way to look at it. Although in my case, I'd have to substitute another drug for the word "stimulant", this a super frame of reference. Thanks.

> Doctors would rather prescribe stimulants than benzos sometimes!

Yeah. With the market saturation of kids taking Adderall and Ritalin for (alleged) ADHD, stimulants are pretty banal anymore.

 

Re: stimulants for depression? nickguy

Posted by Paulbwell on July 7, 2006, at 20:58:10

In reply to stimulants for depression?, posted by nickguy on July 6, 2006, at 19:16:13

> Has anybody heard of this, or have experience with it? My pysch mentioned it and I was a little surprised because I know stimulants carry a lot of stigma. I think he would want to try this before an MAOI, but I'm not sure.

IF YOU TRUELY WISH TO USE A PSYCHOSTIMant fOR A LOW MOOD, then plum for Desoxyn-high 5ht (Serotonin) realease+Dopamine @ Norprerine realese.-The king.


Cheers

 

Re: stimulants for depression? nickguy

Posted by crazy777girl on July 8, 2006, at 2:57:29

In reply to stimulants for depression?, posted by nickguy on July 6, 2006, at 19:16:13

Yes. methylphenidate has been part of my mix for quite a while. It keeps me out of bed. I take it in the morning. Once in a while I've forgotten it, and made it thru the day, later discovered it was still in the pill slot for that morning, it was then obvious that was why I was dragging myself thru the day like a slug in slow motion. So yes - it makes a positive difference. I still am not super-charged, btw. My pdoc wants me to take 3 a day - I take 1. We've agreed that on the dose he's recommended, I'd be even crazier than I normally am.
A.
> Has anybody heard of this, or have experience with it? My pysch mentioned it and I was a little surprised because I know stimulants carry a lot of stigma. I think he would want to try this before an MAOI, but I'm not sure.

 

Re: great statement pseudoname

Posted by ed_uk on July 8, 2006, at 16:07:43

In reply to great statement JerryPharmStudent, posted by pseudoname on July 7, 2006, at 9:35:37

Hi!

Is it true that 4% of children in the US take a stimulant? In the UK it's about 0.3% I think.

Ed

 

Re: great statement

Posted by med_empowered on July 8, 2006, at 16:36:32

In reply to Re: great statement pseudoname, posted by ed_uk on July 8, 2006, at 16:07:43

The 4% number strikes me as a little low, actually. Part of the issue is that there's lots of variation in ADHD diagnosis, which kind of makes be doubt the ability of docs to distinguish between childish antics and actual problems.

For example: there's geographic variation in prescribing. THere's also variation amongst social classes (lower socio-ecnomic status children are dx'd more often and treated with stims more often).

Whats really creepy is tat now, I guess with some of the AD problems and problems surfacing with ritalin-induced psychosis in kids, some docs are turning to the atypicals for ADHD...kind of like the 50s, when "hyperkinetic" kids were given chlorpromazine (nothing like Thorazine to shut a kid up).

 

Re: great statement med_empowered

Posted by ed_uk on July 8, 2006, at 16:55:53

In reply to Re: great statement, posted by med_empowered on July 8, 2006, at 16:36:32

Hi Med

>The 4% number strikes me as a little low, actually

Low! Really? 4% is a lot! What worries me is that the effects of stimulants on the developing brain have not been properly studied.

Ed

 

Re: great statement ed_uk

Posted by Questionmark on July 8, 2006, at 23:36:49

In reply to Re: great statement med_empowered, posted by ed_uk on July 8, 2006, at 16:55:53

> Hi Med
>
> >The 4% number strikes me as a little low, actually
>
> Low! Really? 4% is a lot! What worries me is that the effects of stimulants on the developing brain have not been properly studied.
>
> Ed


Yeah, I'd just like to say for the record (and as a U.S. citizen & former stimulant user) that I completely agree, Ed. It is absolutely freaking ridiculous that this many children are being force-fed uppers in our country. I've been wondering for awhile if the next generation of young adults are going to have extraordinarily high rates of psychological and social problems due to the high rate of chronic, heavy (for kids at least) stimulant use as children. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a group of people with anxiety and depressive disorders and quasi-schizoaffective traits (possibly with mild to moderate paranoid traits) in a decade or two (or more) referred to as PCSUDs-- or people with Post Childhood Stimulant Overuse Disorder. And they'll inevitably have some sort of pharmaceutical specifically marketed to that condition-- and it will of course be over-prescribed. I'll shut up now.
But yeah, it sickens me to see all of these young PRE-ADOLESCENT children (like 5 to 8 years old oftentimes!!) on doses of these powerful psychostimulants that would be too high for me to even want to be on. It really is sick in my opinion.

 

stims for kids

Posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 0:09:31

In reply to Re: great statement ed_uk, posted by Questionmark on July 8, 2006, at 23:36:49

here's the thing: I really do think sometimes stims can help people...I mean, even if you cant prove the existence of ADHD, if you can give a kid low-dose dexedrine or something and then that helps them succeed in school and what not, then I say do it--occasionally.

I think in the US we have a situation where an EXTRAORDINARY number of kids are being labelled as "disordered" when their environments (school, home,etc) are really the problem. I think in many cases we're drugging kids into submission, not HELPING them in any real sense. Its frightening.

Plus, from personal experience, I've seen cases where kids are doped up to make the parents lives easier, or teacher's lives easier, or...just b/c. I've also noticed how sometimes middle and upper class kids end up on low dose drugs plus therapy and other treatments, while less fortunate kids end up on doses of stims that stunt their physical growth and emotional development.

 

Re: stimulants for depression? JerryPharmStudent

Posted by paulbwell on July 9, 2006, at 0:17:20

In reply to Re: stimulants for depression? nickguy, posted by JerryPharmStudent on July 7, 2006, at 3:18:14

> > Has anybody heard of this, or have experience with it? My pysch mentioned it and I was a little surprised because I know stimulants carry a lot of stigma. I think he would want to try this before an MAOI, but I'm not sure.
>
> Stimulants are a widely used tool for depression. Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall, Dexedrine - they all work VERY well when paired with SSRIs.
>
> I've been on stimulants for depression for years. Doctors would rather prescribe stimulants than benzos sometimes!
>
> There's more stigma attached to mental illness than there is to using stimulants for depression. Without Adderall - I'd not be able to get out of bed.
>
> Jerry
>
>

Hi Ya!

I know medicine changes according to fads n fashions...I have a 1951 magazine ad here for a med called "Norodin"-Methamphetamine Hcl, 2.5 5mg tabs. This medication is being advertised for depression, and weight control~

~"Norodin"-psychomotor stimulant@antipressant, sure this was 50 tears ago.. BUT i converse with fok who taks Desoxyn (same thing) and done sofor years, i womder if infact they are 'treating' their Narcolepsy, or simply prefer the effects the pills have on them.

I'v taken 6 legal dope company AD's-and gen Ritalin is the only 1 which doesn't make me fat, and stupid-it is of course illegal to give for low moods, luckly i have an issue with concentration, and overactivity:).

Cheers

 

Re: great statement Questionmark

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 3:52:31

In reply to Re: great statement ed_uk, posted by Questionmark on July 8, 2006, at 23:36:49

Hi QM

>Post Childhood Stimulant Overuse Disorder

Exactly. It worries me that a very large number of people may end up with permanent changes to brain function. Children's brains are still developing when they are given stimulants. I often wonder whether the administration of potent sympathomimetics to such a large proportion of America's children is wise. The cardiovascular toxicity of stimulants is also a concern.

>And they'll inevitably have some sort of pharmaceutical specifically marketed to that condition-- and it will of course be over-prescribed.

Probably an atypical antipsychotic!

Regards

Ed

 

Re: stims for kids med_empowered

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 3:57:16

In reply to stims for kids, posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 0:09:31

Hi Med

>I really do think sometimes stims can help people...I mean, even if you cant prove the existence of ADHD, if you can give a kid low-dose dexedrine or something and then that helps them succeed in school and what not, then I say do it--occasionally

I agree Med.

>think in the US we have a situation where an EXTRAORDINARY number of kids are being labelled as "disordered" when their environments (school, home,etc) are really the problem

I think that's probably true in many cases.

Prescribing psychiatric drugs to young children is something which requires extreme caution. The effects of long term use (years) are my main concern.

Regards

Ed

 

Ritalin as AD is not illegal paulbwell

Posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 8:23:10

In reply to Re: stimulants for depression? JerryPharmStudent, posted by paulbwell on July 9, 2006, at 0:17:20

Hi, Paul.

> I'v taken 6 legal dope company AD's-and gen Ritalin is the only 1 which doesn't make me fat, and stupid-it is of course illegal to give for low moods

It is NOT illegal in the U.S. for a doctor to prescribe Ritalin or other controlled substances off-label for depression. It is only illegal for a drug manufacturer to advertise off-label uses.

 

Re: Ritalin as AD is not illegal pseudoname

Posted by paulbwell on July 9, 2006, at 8:32:54

In reply to Ritalin as AD is not illegal paulbwell, posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 8:23:10

> Hi, Paul.
>
> > I'v taken 6 legal dope company AD's-and gen Ritalin is the only 1 which doesn't make me fat, and stupid-it is of course illegal to give for low moods
>
> It is NOT illegal in the U.S. for a doctor to prescribe Ritalin or other controlled substances off-label for depression. It is only illegal for a drug manufacturer to advertise off-label uses.


Thanks-i thought it was illegal to script Stmulants for other thanADD/HD?-Narcolepsy. It's a good thing i hold more Gen Ritalin 10mg IR tabs, than most Pharmacies do, 15 boxes~400 tabs:) so i'm sweet for now.


Thankyou:)

 

Ritalin and recess

Posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 8:37:33

In reply to Re: great statement pseudoname, posted by ed_uk on July 8, 2006, at 16:07:43

Like med_empowered, I thought the 4% figure sounded low, but I can't find any actual numbers. I've just seen *lots* of kids ages 8-18, including some in my extended familiy, taking prescribed stimulants. In my 11-year-old nephew's class of 25 kids, I know there were about 4 on psych meds. It's really quite sad.

But I live in one of those high-Ritalinizing states. Even 15 years ago, the counties in my area were known among researchers as the "Ritalin arc".

In the U.S., elementary schools have cut back on recess periods. When I was a kid, we had 15 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes in the afternoon, and most of 30 minutes at lunchtime to go outside and run around and yell. Even at age 14, we had recesses! Now 10-year-old kids in my town are given only one break so teachers can fit in more state-mandated instruction. The kids naturally get fidgety and then have drugs shoved down their throats to keep them still.

It's like the school equivalent of factory farming.

 

Re: Ritalin and recess pseudoname

Posted by paulbwell on July 9, 2006, at 9:15:55

In reply to Ritalin and recess, posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 8:37:33

> Like med_empowered, I thought the 4% figure sounded low, but I can't find any actual numbers. I've just seen *lots* of kids ages 8-18, including some in my extended familiy, taking prescribed stimulants. In my 11-year-old nephew's class of 25 kids, I know there were about 4 on psych meds. It's really quite sad.
>
> But I live in one of those high-Ritalinizing states. Even 15 years ago, the counties in my area were known among researchers as the "Ritalin arc".
>
> In the U.S., elementary schools have cut back on recess periods. When I was a kid, we had 15 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes in the afternoon, and most of 30 minutes at lunchtime to go outside and run around and yell. Even at age 14, we had recesses! Now 10-year-old kids in my town are given only one break so teachers can fit in more state-mandated instruction. The kids naturally get fidgety and then have drugs shoved down their throats to keep them still.
>
> It's like the school equivalent of factory farming.

I hear ya!
I'm not 8yo!!

I am in my early 30's, and have taken 6+AD with nothing but SEs, i have taken Ritalin-generic for over 2 years, an it's better tha the 6+ AD's i'v been thrown, so i'll go with it.

Ritalin, works as an:
-Anti depressant
-treats ADHD
-Narcolepsy
-Alzeheimers

It's a dopamine booster+Norephine booster@reuptake inhibiter, and seems to work ok. I may be becoming tolerant, so a change to Dex MAY be in order? (only you Yanks have Addy@Desoxyn) 5mg IR tabs-all's there is here, which my Doc said i could trial.

Cheers

Get back:)

 

Re: stims for kids

Posted by Emme on July 9, 2006, at 9:20:09

In reply to stims for kids, posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 0:09:31

I've been a substitute teacher in the local schools. I'm not trained in special ed, but after a very short time in the primary school I was able to see differences between the kids who are fidgety and have a hard time keeping still vs. the few who are way beyond that and in a whole other realm. Sometimes if there are a few kids with problems, there's an aide in the room to help keep them focused, but it's still clearly a struggle for them.

I remember talking to a parent once who, after much consideration (and receiving much criticism) decided to give her son medication and said it made a huge differences and enabled him to learn and to start making friends. Before that, despite their best efforts to help him, he kept annoying the other kids with his hyperactivity. So my unprofessional opinion is that there are a few out there who probably really need some help from meds.

 

kids on meds

Posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 12:13:26

In reply to Re: stims for kids, posted by Emme on July 9, 2006, at 9:20:09

my whole things is I'm not opposed to careful usage of meds in kids in certain cases--I'm just concerned when we have huge numbers of kids being medicated who aren't deriving a clear benefit.

 

Re: kids on meds med_empowered

Posted by paulbwell on July 9, 2006, at 12:18:12

In reply to kids on meds, posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 12:13:26

> my whole things is I'm not opposed to careful usage of meds in kids in certain cases--I'm just concerned when we have huge numbers of kids being medicated who aren't deriving a clear benefit.

Tell that to the legal dope companies-they don't give a sh*t-$$$

Cheers

 

Re: Ritalin and recess pseudoname

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 12:26:54

In reply to Ritalin and recess, posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 8:37:33

Hi PN

Although stimulants may be very helpful for some children, it is the exceptionally high useage of stimulants in certain parts of the US which concerns me. I find it bizarre that such a large number of young children are prescribed psychiatric medications.

>my 11-year-old nephew's class of 25 kids, I know there were about 4 on psych meds.

When I was at school, I never even heard of anyone taking a stimulant! Weird how things are so different. By the time I was about 15, I knew a couple of people who took SSRIs (as well as me), both of them had serious problems.

>When I was a kid, we had 15 minutes in the morning, 30 minutes in the afternoon, and most of 30 minutes at lunchtime to go outside and run around and yell.

We had 15 mins in the morning, 60 mins at lunchtime, and another 15 mins in the afternoon. At high school we had 60 minutes lunch but no other breaks.

Regards

Eddy

 

Re: kids on meds med_empowered

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 12:27:53

In reply to kids on meds, posted by med_empowered on July 9, 2006, at 12:13:26

I agree Med, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Ed

 

Re: stims for kids Emme

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 12:35:03

In reply to Re: stims for kids, posted by Emme on July 9, 2006, at 9:20:09

Hi Em

My mum teaches 5 yr olds, she's done a bit of special ed. There are some really 'difficult' children at the school but most of them are quite good. Over the years, she's seen the number of 'difficult' children go up and up. Same with my dad - who's also a teacher.

>I remember talking to a parent once who, after much consideration (and receiving much criticism) decided to give her son medication and said it made a huge differences and enabled him to learn and to start making friends.

That's great. I do think some children may derive a lot of benefit from stimulants, at least in the short term. I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone for deciding to give their child a stimulant. I'm mainly concerned about the possible long term effects of stimulant use in children and the very large number of children who are prescribed stimulants these days.

Regards

Ed

 

stimulants sometimes needed ed_uk

Posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 13:00:27

In reply to Re: Ritalin and recess pseudoname, posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 12:26:54

> Hi PN

Hi to you!

> At high school we had 60 minutes lunch but no other breaks.

Do you call it "high school" in the UK? Roughly the age range of 14-18?

> I do think some children may derive a lot of benefit from stimulants, at least in the short term. I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone for deciding to give their child a stimulant.

I agree; I wouldn't criticize anyone simply because a stimulant was involved. A child in my circle had a birth mother whose drug abuse probably affected him in utero. His adoptive parents put him on stimulants, on which he performs adequately in school. OFF the stimulants, he suffers painfully in ordinary situations from indecision and inattention and so on. He is by far the smallest child in his class; I believe slow growth is a known effect of stimulants in children. Sadly, it's probably the best trade-off they can make for him right now.

On the other hand, stimulants are clearly overprescribed for kids in the U.S. I think their lives are overstructured these days and Ritalin is used to squeeze them into boxes, but I don't want to sound like a grouchy old man.

 

Re: stimulants sometimes needed pseudoname

Posted by ed_uk on July 9, 2006, at 13:31:44

In reply to stimulants sometimes needed ed_uk, posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 13:00:27

Hi PN!

>Do you call it "high school" in the UK? Roughly the age range of 14-18?

11-16 is called Secondary school or High school here.

4-6 is called Infant school. 6-10 is called Junior school. Some schools are both Junior and Infant schools.

>I think their lives are overstructured these days and Ritalin

Perhaps they need to play in the garden more? :) American culture seems to be obsessed with academic achievement, but I could be wrong. A lot of children are just not suited to academia, they would benefit more from doing something more practical.

Eddy

 

How do you know stims are overprescribed?

Posted by alohashirt on July 13, 2006, at 22:27:38

In reply to stimulants sometimes needed ed_uk, posted by pseudoname on July 9, 2006, at 13:00:27

My understanding is that about 3% of school age children are believed to have ADHD and about 60% of these are diagnosed and being treated. This doesn't mean that there isn't misdiagnosis of other conditions or simple high energy.

What data would any of us need to form an informed view as to whether children are largely over or undertreated for ADHD?

To the question of American child-rearing. I do believe that the "hurried child syndrome" described in the 1970s is alive and well. When I took my 3 year old to his fourth IQ test for admission to a prestigious nursery school I reflected on the stupidity of this process and how lucky I was to have a relaxed upbringing. This overpressure does not appear to have any positive effect on future academic achievement.


> > Hi PN
>
> Hi to you!
>
> > At high school we had 60 minutes lunch but no other breaks.
>
> Do you call it "high school" in the UK? Roughly the age range of 14-18?
>
> > I do think some children may derive a lot of benefit from stimulants, at least in the short term. I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone for deciding to give their child a stimulant.
>
> I agree; I wouldn't criticize anyone simply because a stimulant was involved. A child in my circle had a birth mother whose drug abuse probably affected him in utero. His adoptive parents put him on stimulants, on which he performs adequately in school. OFF the stimulants, he suffers painfully in ordinary situations from indecision and inattention and so on. He is by far the smallest child in his class; I believe slow growth is a known effect of stimulants in children. Sadly, it's probably the best trade-off they can make for him right now.
>
> On the other hand, stimulants are clearly overprescribed for kids in the U.S. I think their lives are overstructured these days and Ritalin is used to squeeze them into boxes, but I don't want to sound like a grouchy old man.

 

I don't alohashirt

Posted by pseudoname on July 13, 2006, at 23:34:23

In reply to How do you know stims are overprescribed?, posted by alohashirt on July 13, 2006, at 22:27:38

Hi, aloha.

I should've made clear in that sentence, as I did earlier in the thread, that it seemed clear to me only on the basis of personal exposure.

> My understanding is that about 3% of school age children are believed to have ADHD and about 60% of these are diagnosed and being treated.

When I posted earlier, I looked & found that there haven't been any studies for a long time even on the rates of stimulant use, which is a really objective criterion. But the rates of ADHD, if studies were performed, could still be questioned on the validity of the diagnostic criteria & methods.

I guess I would say that ADHD is overdiagnosed; on THAT question, there were at least a few studies back in the '90s when I studied it in class. Which is not to say that it doesn't occur. I would simply urge a far-greater-than-usual amount of caution in accepting that diagnosis or treating it with stimulants.

> how lucky I was to have a relaxed upbringing.

Yeah, that's true for me, too.


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