Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 650453

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Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out heaven help me

Posted by yxibow on June 1, 2006, at 0:11:37

In reply to web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out, posted by heaven help me on May 31, 2006, at 21:00:51

> I take 120mg Geodon a day and I am starting to get feaked out about it but I found this info today, here is part of it:
>
> If neuroleptic drugs have been used, or are being used, there is substantial evidence (at least seven studies) which show that tardive dyskinesia can be avoided and/or treated, through the use of certain nutrients, especially vitamin E. One professional suggests the following to prevent or treat tardive dyskinesia:
>
> Vitamin E, 400-800 units/day
> Vitamin B6, 100-200 mg./day
> Vitamin C, 1000 mg./day
> Vitamin B3, 100-200 mg./day (niacinamide)
> Multiple mineral tablet containing about 3-5 mg. of manganese
> AND, here is the link it came from:
> http://www.autism.org/tardiv.html


That is not, by the way, the official Autism society's web page -- it is a private research group.

But, yes, Vitamin E has been recommended as a neuroprotective, and despite no double blind studies, I do take 400 IU a day, the maximum one should really take as there are issues of internal bleeding. For treatment of TD, 1600 IU has been used successfully in some cases, but again, there have been little double blind studies illustrating it.

The thing about TD is that it can remit during treatment, thus one never knows whether it was the Vitamin E or not without a double blind study. It can also remit with a switch to a different neuroleptic. It can be exacerbated also in some studies by abrupt discontinuation of any neuroleptic. The only neuroleptic to date that has not caused more than a few isolated TD cases is Clozaril, which carries a 2% mandatory discontinuation if mandatory blood tests determine agranulocytosis (low white blood cell count.) Clozaril has also been shown to help those with TD. To this date, we have no conclusive studies on the potential of TD, and naturally that leaves the patient with the decision of "informed consent" to take a neuroleptic.

I do worry at times about my use of Seroquel, though it is the least powerful at D2 of all antipsychotics other than Clozaril which has nearly no affinity (Clozaril is more powerful in other ways as a "gold standard" for treatment resistant schizophreniform spectrum disorders.)

There was a study by the British Journal of Pharmacology, if I recall, on a rather substantial number of patients on Zyprexa. It was determined that the average annual rate of TD was 1/2% per year -- theoretically if you lived 100 years, you could say that could be up to 50% cumulative, although that is not exactly how TD manifests, nor how statistics work. Seroquel is even weaker than Zyprexa which has a fair affinity for D2, so I suppose I could extrapolate to 1/4%, but its in the "we don't know department."

Geodon has a fairly strong affinity for D2 and thus if one is exhibiting strong EPS on Geodon, there is a greater likelyhood of developing TD at some undetermined, but definately tardive (late) period. This would be based on the theory that strong EPS is an indicator of a possibility of strong TD, again, not conclusively proven either.

What one should do, under their own "informed consent" while taking an antipsychotic is have a regular AIMS exam -- typically every 6 months, by your trained psychiatrist. If a psychiatrist is prescribing antipsychotics, they should know how to perform an AIMS exam which is a subjective level of TD. There are other things out there that may mimic TD, but fall below the standard of actually calling it TD, such as fasciculations, pseudoparkinsonism, and other EPS manifestations.

 

Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out yxibow

Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 5:42:10

In reply to Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out heaven help me, posted by yxibow on June 1, 2006, at 0:11:37

> But, yes, Vitamin E has been recommended as a neuroprotective, and despite no double blind studies, I do take 400 IU a day, the maximum one should really take as there are issues of internal bleeding.

I love your posts.

The bleeding thing is *not* due to vitamin E consumption. If you refer to the NAP publications (full-text books readable online), you'll find that the bleeding issues arise only because of concommitant vitamin K deficiency. They put the warning on the wrong nutrient, IMHO.

http://fermat.nap.edu/openbook/0309069351/html/index.html

Also, all this research into vitamin E lately is so messed up. Most of it, if not all, has been using synthetic vitamin E, the d-alpha-tocopherol isomer. There are eight natural isomers, and an equal number of tocotrienols, that also fall under the broader rubric "vitamin E".

In particular, excess d-alpha displace d-gamma from its assigned tasks, and *that*, IMHO, is the reason for the adverse health effects of what they are falsely calling vitamin E supplementation. Vitamin E supplementation should include sixteen chemicals, and they're using just one. The imbalance is causing the problems.

Lar

 

Other meds that can impove TD

Posted by flip_flop on June 1, 2006, at 10:59:33

In reply to GEODON - TARDIVE DYSKINESIA MOVIE OF MYSELF, posted by Jeroen on May 30, 2006, at 12:22:17

Sulpiride, tiapride and memantine have also been shown to be able to improve TD.

 

Larry, WHICH vit E to take?...

Posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 12:25:49

In reply to Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out yxibow, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 5:42:10

Larry, I'm a layman (woman). Can you tell me exactly which vitamin E to take? as in, what would it say on the bottle?
Thanks!, again,
mary

 

Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out

Posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 12:28:54

In reply to Re: web info on TD...you guys are freaking me out heaven help me, posted by yxibow on June 1, 2006, at 0:11:37

Thank you yxibow, I ill print out your response and take it to my Dr. and ask about the AIMS exam. I appreciate your input
blessings
mary

 

Re: Larry, WHICH vit E to take?... heaven help me

Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 12:41:25

In reply to Larry, WHICH vit E to take?..., posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 12:25:49

> Larry, I'm a layman (woman). Can you tell me exactly which vitamin E to take? as in, what would it say on the bottle?
> Thanks!, again,
> mary

mixed tocopherols
or, it would list them
you want to especially see gamma
not *just* d-alpha
that's just the easiest one to make in a chemical plant

Lar

 

thanks, Larry, and about that concert...

Posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 13:04:27

In reply to Re: Larry, WHICH vit E to take?... heaven help me, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 12:41:25

(just left the alternative board) My teenage daughter and I are best friends and I'd say that a big part of it is that I listen to *her* music with her, day in - day out. It took me a while but now I really like it and in the mix, we became great friends. So, ENJOY the concert!

 

Re: thanks, Larry, and about that concert...

Posted by linkadge on June 1, 2006, at 15:35:18

In reply to thanks, Larry, and about that concert..., posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 13:04:27

If you are not psychotic, don't take antispychotics. There are other drugs, that your psychiatrist probably hasn't tried that will function the same way for anxiety or sleep problems.

Linkadge

 

Re: thanks, Larry, and about that concert... heaven help me

Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2006, at 17:59:44

In reply to thanks, Larry, and about that concert..., posted by heaven help me on June 1, 2006, at 13:04:27

> (just left the alternative board) My teenage daughter and I are best friends and I'd say that a big part of it is that I listen to *her* music with her, day in - day out. It took me a while but now I really like it and in the mix, we became great friends. So, ENJOY the concert!

Oh, we did! Sorry. I can get very single-minded in my writing/thinking.

My fourteen year old son, Alex, started expressing interest in guitars, especially the bass guitar. So, I dug out my old Ricky bass(much love there, but I injured my arm), and we primped and polished and re-strung it and set it all up. Bought him a practise amp. It lives with him, the bass, but it comes here when he does. That's the only rule. I get to hold it, too.

Oh, the concert..... Doh!

We saw The Cult, and two other bands. Bangkok 5, out of LA, and one other. The Cult did some really guitar-hook laden stuff back in the 80's. "Love Removal Machine." "Fire Woman." "Wildflower." He'd heard lots of their stuff before, even if he didn't know the band.

Great show. Great to do this with my son. His neck hurt from the head slam thing. I'm glad I never learned *that* one.

When he woke up the next morning (just before noon), I was playing my six string. He said he thought he was still at the concert.

My ex was with my other son that weekend, just so we could do this thing. Thomas's turn comes this summer. He wants to go fishing. Cabin. Boat.

Yup.

Thanks for asking.

Memories being laid down. Good memories.

Lar

 

GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT

Posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 16:30:20

hi, i hope you enjoyed my brain damage movie caused by the geodon (NEW ANTI PSYCHOTIC FOR $360 a month we will give you permanent brain damage 50% chance you will feel good) IT COST A LOT SOOOOOOOO WE WILL KICK UR BUT! haha. funny the doc said when i got off it, to the drug company, his eyes are rolling uncontrolled when hes riding his bike, ok bye, ok so now our trial with geodon ended, what about Abilify? all my friends used to call it get back sick medicine after a while :(

ok, 3 people i have known at the hospital, commited suicide, several friends (especially the girl who broke my heart and hell started at the right time when we were gonna have a relationship for a while)


ooooh *SLAP* JEROEN in the face, u dumb *ss! like they told me in school


DO NOT TAKE GEODON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


it has sudden death warning, they all tell you it's not gonna happen... but it does


i've read story about a woman on geodon, worst side effects ever,


heart attack, tardive dyskinesia, especially the eye!

 

TO JEROEN! Jeroen

Posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 17:27:35

In reply to i'm not gonna sue.... i wanna be happy and not, posted by Jeroen on May 31, 2006, at 13:47:06

Hello J,

I just watched your video. I haven't been on babble for two days so I only just saw it.

I have to say this J. Your blepharospasm does NOT make you ugly. Just wanted to clear that up.

I do think your blepharospasm was caused by the antipsychotics J, but even so, it would be useful if you could see a neurologist. There are treatments for blepharospasm which can only be performed by a neurologist.

Regards

Ed

 

Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT

Posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 18:00:30

In reply to GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT, posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 16:30:20

Hi J

I just responded to your thread above.

Ed

 

Re: TO JEROEN!

Posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:04:24

In reply to TO JEROEN! Jeroen, posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 17:27:35

found a case where abilify 15 mg for 2 months the TD in the person was gone. that person used geodon

In my opinion Clozapine, Seroquel, Abilify are potential TD treatments. depends on case and hypersensitivity on medicines, i think....

 

GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF

Posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:24:10

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT, posted by ed_uk on June 2, 2006, at 18:00:30

http://www.geodon.com/s_PatientStories.asp

they had 3 movies, now only 2, the one that had BIG DILATED EYES HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THEIR SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


it's true, it's just a Zyprexa scam, with lesser side effects

the guy with the dilated eyes, same as me movie has been removed... sens of botches


 

Re: GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF

Posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:25:42

In reply to GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF, posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:24:10

experience with past medicines, they mean zyprexa, FAT


damn they removed the guy with the eye side effect from patient experience with GEODON, hahahahahahaahhaahahhahahaa BUSTED!

 

Geodon Jeroen

Posted by Caedmon on June 2, 2006, at 19:08:33

In reply to Re: TO JEROEN!, posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:04:24

Jeroen, I'm sorry to hear (and see!) the trouble you are going through. :-(

I know of another person who experienced severe eye spasms on Geodon. He went to the emergency room and they promptly took him off it. I don't know the rest of the story (if he got switched to another agent, what the problem was diagnosed as, etc.)

Best of luck,

- Chris

 

Re: GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF Jeroen

Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2006, at 20:20:06

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF, posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 18:25:42

Jeroen I think a lot of people are taking more seriously since they saw the video. I'm so sorry. Love Phillipa

 

Re: GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF

Posted by linkadge on June 2, 2006, at 21:42:46

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCAM $$$ PROOF Jeroen, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2006, at 20:20:06

It is good that you went to the extent you did to make that video. It lets people know that you are sincere and not just complaining. When people see text on the screen they don't think much of it, but when they see you in person, it makes it more real.

Thanks, and good luck with finding whatever help you need.

Linkadge

 

Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT Jeroen

Posted by saturn on June 2, 2006, at 22:31:13

In reply to GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT, posted by Jeroen on June 2, 2006, at 16:30:20


Hey Jeroen,

Where can I find this link?

Thanks,

Saturn

 

Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT saturn

Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2006, at 23:11:22

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT Jeroen, posted by saturn on June 2, 2006, at 22:31:13

Scroll up the board pretty far up. The second post about the movie is the one. I think it's to Lar, Phillip And Ed. About the maybe eigth down. Turn on your sound too he talks in it. The first link doesn't work. Love Phillipa keep trying it's worth it

 

Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT

Posted by Jeroen on June 3, 2006, at 5:07:21

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT saturn, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2006, at 23:11:22

you see, geodon has high EPS, i've read 50% who take it will get it

 

thanks (nm) Phillipa

Posted by saturn on June 3, 2006, at 10:56:16

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT saturn, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2006, at 23:11:22

 

the updated working link *AGAIN*

Posted by Jeroen on June 3, 2006, at 11:28:06

In reply to GEODON - TARDIVE DYSKINESIA MOVIE OF MYSELF, posted by Jeroen on May 30, 2006, at 12:22:17

http://209.190.4.10/geodon-evil.wmv

 

EPS and neuroleptics Jeroen

Posted by yxibow on June 3, 2006, at 11:49:50

In reply to Re: GEODON - SCARY MOVIE 5 ** JEROEN PLAYING IN IT, posted by Jeroen on June 3, 2006, at 5:07:21

> you see, geodon has high EPS, i've read 50% who take it will get it

While it is true that Geodon is stronger than Seroquel, EPS varies wildly from individual to individual. EPS (Extrapyramidal Symptoms, i.e. side effects) are common with ANY neuroleptic, including the one I take, Seroquel. I have fasciculations and mild pseudoparkinsonism. Geodon is a bit stronger and tends to cause more akathisia, as does Abilify (unfortunately, because the mechanism seems counterintuitive to that), and Risperdal as well at higher doses. But again that varies by the person, some people can tolerate Risperdal quite well.


Affective disorders managed by antipsychotics tend to have greater EPS -- this is not completely understood, though the brain of schizophrenia is probably modified just a little bit differently, and may not experience the same problems as those with affective disorders (mood -- Bipolar, psychotic or extreme depression, psychotic or extreme anxiety, etc.)


EPS is not TD -- extreme EPS may suggest a future TD, and would behoove one if possible to change the neuroleptic that they're on that causes extreme EPS if they can seek relief with a different one.

All medications, including antidepressants have tradeoffs with side effects, and the best way to take them is to understand how they work, and to take them with "informed consent," that is, with the knowledge that there will be side effects. One has to balance relief and the reduction of suicide among other awful things with depression and psychosis, and the side effects of the medication they are on. Its not a fun choice to make but sometimes one has to do it -- or they will never get relief, if they continue to exhaust medications in the first week of treatment.


I sympathize with you, Jeroen, and I hope you find a better medication to deal with your problems. There is always Clozaril too, but it absolutely must be monitored with your doctor for low white blood cell count.

- tidings

Jay

 

Re: EPS and neuroleptics

Posted by Jeroen on June 3, 2006, at 12:24:51

In reply to EPS and neuroleptics Jeroen, posted by yxibow on June 3, 2006, at 11:49:50

i got TD on my 21 birthday, it was hell,


geodon = hell



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