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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 9:15:25
I keep hearing everyone saying Thorazine and other conventional neuroleptics have a calming action to them. Could you go into more detail about how it calms you?
The only drugs that I have responded to (Geodon & lithium) have had this profound calming action to them. The problem is both quit working for me. The calm that they gave me was unlike a benzo in that I maintained mental energy and clarity whereas the benzo has me more mellow and sluggish.
I recently also responded to Symbyax 6mg/25mg for one week. I had the same calming action. That is the lowest dose so I still have some room to move. Anyway I'd just love to hear about Thorazine or what others have to say about low dose conventional AP's.
Tom
Posted by Maxime on February 21, 2006, at 10:22:43
In reply to Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 9:15:25
Hi
Well I was given thorazine to help me sleep. My pdoc told me it wouldn't knock me out, I would just feel calmer and be able to sleep. He was right. But thorazine has a long half life and the calming effect stayed with me. I didn't feel sedated, just blissfully calm. My pdoc said they used thorazine during the war and he said "they gave it to soldiers before an operation. Not to knock them out. But once given the thorazine, the soldiers simply didn't care anymore that they were going to have surgery or notice the pain they were in".I still take it some nights. I can't take it often because of the lactation problem, but it really makes me feel good. I only take 25 mg.
Hope this helps.
Maxime
> I keep hearing everyone saying Thorazine and other conventional neuroleptics have a calming action to them. Could you go into more detail about how it calms you?
>
> The only drugs that I have responded to (Geodon & lithium) have had this profound calming action to them. The problem is both quit working for me. The calm that they gave me was unlike a benzo in that I maintained mental energy and clarity whereas the benzo has me more mellow and sluggish.
>
> I recently also responded to Symbyax 6mg/25mg for one week. I had the same calming action. That is the lowest dose so I still have some room to move. Anyway I'd just love to hear about Thorazine or what others have to say about low dose conventional AP's.
>
> Tom
Posted by Phillipa on February 21, 2006, at 13:23:13
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by Maxime on February 21, 2006, at 10:22:43
Maxie I would think it would knock you out. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on February 21, 2006, at 13:39:23
In reply to Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 9:15:25
I found that Thorazine caused less drowsiness than an antihistamine.
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 21, 2006, at 14:36:20
In reply to Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 9:15:25
Hi Tom
Have you tried all the atypical APs available in the US? (apart from clozapine)
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 21, 2006, at 14:37:28
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by Maxime on February 21, 2006, at 10:22:43
Hi Maxie
Have you tried any of the other typical neuroleptics?
Ed xx
Posted by Maxime on February 21, 2006, at 16:13:21
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » Maxime, posted by ed_uk on February 21, 2006, at 14:37:28
Yes, Nozinan. But it's far more potent than thorazine and it knocks me out. No calming effect... just blackness.:-) I have also tried Mellaril. Same effect as the Nozinan.
Maxime
xx
> Hi Maxie
>
> Have you tried any of the other typical neuroleptics?
>
> Ed xx
Posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 16:29:08
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » TomG, posted by ed_uk on February 21, 2006, at 14:36:20
> Hi Tom
>
> Have you tried all the atypical APs available in the US? (apart from clozapine)
>
> EdYep I have maybe not to an aggresive degree like pushing doses etc. but I've given several atypicals multiple trials in different combos But...... my doc gave the greenlight that he would write a script for Amisulpride when I want to try it. I have a little tinkering to do with this Symbyax before I give up on it also. I have added 400mgs provigil as well and it seems to go nicely with the Symbyax, but it isn't the most natural feeling drug. I'm really just playing around with the dosing right now to see what I like. I took 1000mgs Provigil today and 1200mgs yesterday. There are some mild hemodynamic changes at these doses and a little angina but nothing to worry about quite frankly I would have to say I experience euphoria at these doses. I have loads of Ativan to deal with any sudden edginess that modafinil throws my way, but I think its a pretty safe drug. I keep the blood pressure cuff and some Captopril within reach. Tommorrow I will go back down to the 400mg range and hold.
What has really been bugging me is when I think back to when Geodon started working really well for me. When I started the 20mgs of Geodon I had added it to a cocktail of 1200mgs Neurontin
and 1350mgs of lithium carbonate. My doc removed me from both the lithium and the Neurontin immediately. A month later the Geodon cr*pped out on me completely. I want to get some opinions on this because I thought it could have been the combo that was helping me and not just the Geodon working solo.My strategy is to play out this Symbyax then go to Amisulpride then replicate my Neurontin, lithium, Geodon combination. If all this fails then I will look into the use of low dose Thorazine or Haldol(I do mean reeeal low dose). It sounds like worthy option. I like to think far ahead of what I'm going to try.
Please I welcome any alternate strategies, disagreements, questions
Tom
Posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 16:55:35
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by Maxime on February 21, 2006, at 10:22:43
Do you find when you are calmed by Thorazine that you have more clarity of thought? When medicines work for me I look back and say, "Whoa I was living in the clouds." They clear my mind and this helps in articulating thoughts much better. My cognition does a 180 degree turn. SLS wrote in a post I was reading in the archives and described some side effects of one of the coventional AP's he took I don't remember it, but he says it stole his knowledge so it was not accessible. This was a secondary negative symptom, the AP being the culprit as opposed to the exact same problem I have which is a primary negative symptom being a main symptom of my diagnosis. The lack of expression is what I have to overcome. All my knowledge is in there but I can't put it together in organized form and let it out.
Tom
Posted by med_empowered on February 22, 2006, at 6:44:37
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » Maxime, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 16:55:35
hi! Like Maxime said, Thorazine was originally used in operations--it was used as a pre-op anaesthetic in France, where it was tested on mental patients. The big difference was dosing; pre-op, someone might get 25-100mgs (from what I understand). For schizophrenia, docs in the US tended prescribe at least 300, and usually more like 900-1500mgs, sometimes going above and beyond 6,000mgs. I myself find that short-term, low dose antipsychotics sometimes "clear my head"...long-term, though, they're not something I could tolerate.
If you do opt to take an old-school neuroleptic, I'd personally recommend low (ex: thorazine) or mid (example: trilafon) potency--haldol and the like are pretty hardcore in terms of side effects, and the TD risk **may** be higher. Also, since antipsychotics might cause "oxidative stress," upping your antioxidant intake might help some.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2006, at 9:53:39
In reply to Maxime - Questions about Thorazine, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 9:15:25
I was on 50-100 mg of Thorazine for about a year, taken at night, for what were described as night terrors (although I have no recollection of night terrors) as a preteen. Looking back, I think I had a severe outbreak of OCD and anxiety, mixed with depression and anger.
It worked pretty well. If you look at my grades, there was a slight dip. And I'm finding a fair amount of trouble with word recall and substitution on a low dose of Risperdal for anxiety right now. But if anxiety is too bad, Risperdal actually helps me focus and think.
Posted by Maxime on February 22, 2006, at 10:38:26
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » Maxime, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 16:55:35
I didn't have more clarity of thought, but it didn't impair it. For instance, I was on Neurontin and I felt like I was walking on air. It was awful. Then again maybe I did on the Thorazine (have more clarity of thought), because my mind wasn't racing like it had been at the time.
Maxime
> Do you find when you are calmed by Thorazine that you have more clarity of thought? When medicines work for me I look back and say, "Whoa I was living in the clouds." They clear my mind and this helps in articulating thoughts much better. My cognition does a 180 degree turn. SLS wrote in a post I was reading in the archives and described some side effects of one of the coventional AP's he took I don't remember it, but he says it stole his knowledge so it was not accessible. This was a secondary negative symptom, the AP being the culprit as opposed to the exact same problem I have which is a primary negative symptom being a main symptom of my diagnosis. The lack of expression is what I have to overcome. All my knowledge is in there but I can't put it together in organized form and let it out.
>
> Tom
Posted by ed_uk on February 22, 2006, at 13:56:55
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » ed_uk, posted by TomG on February 21, 2006, at 16:29:08
Hi Tom
>my doc gave the greenlight that he would write a script for Amisulpride when I want to try it
:)
Where do you plan to get it from?
>Symbyax
Wouldn't it be better to take fluoxetine and olanzapine separately so you can adjust the dose of each drug individually?
Regards
Ed
Posted by TomG on February 22, 2006, at 16:39:40
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » TomG, posted by ed_uk on February 22, 2006, at 13:56:55
Hello Ed,
I'm planning on getting the Solian from Canada and will obviously use a small dose.>Wouldn't it be better to take fluoxetine and olanzapine separately so you can adjust the dose of each drug individually?
Better? I'm not sure. On my next appointment I'm probably pretty sure I'll be going up to the 6mg/50mg preparation and see how that goes. I did have a partial response that lasted about a week so maybe the dosage change is what I need.
What are your thoughts about the situation a year ago when 20mgs Geodon was added to 1350mgs lithium carbonate and 1200mgs Neurontin. I had a robust response when the Geodon was added and my doc immediately removed the lithium and Neurontin. A month and a half latter the Geodon stopped working. The addition of 20 more milligrams caused insomnia and failed to recapture a response. I stayed at the 20mgs a little longer and it actually started causing some anxiety. Thats when I ditched it, but I think if current strategies fail that it's an area that I need to look at again. Possibly a higher initial dose is something to think about, but I'm more interested to hear what you think about the lithium and Neurontin contributing to the intial response to Geodon and ultimately it's failure without the other two drugs in the cocktail. I've read that at 20mgs Geodon is just a potent 5ht2c antagonist. Thats all it does. Your thoughts or anyones?
Tom
Posted by ed_uk on February 22, 2006, at 16:50:16
In reply to Re: Maxime - Questions about Thorazine » ed_uk, posted by TomG on February 22, 2006, at 16:39:40
Hi
>Better? I'm not sure.
Definitely, you need to get the right dose of each individual drug to obtain the most benefit. Anyway, generic fluoxetine is cheap and effective.
I'm not so sure about the Neurontin. Combining lithium with Geodon sounds like it's worth a second try :)
Regards
Ed
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