Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 565707

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Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on October 15, 2005, at 17:21:05

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by Pfinstegg on October 15, 2005, at 17:03:06

Qwerty--thats awesome that you have made a decision to proceed. Please do keep us informed of your progress. You have a 50-50 chance so stay optimistic! I would be particularly interested, if you do respond, to see if he wants to put you back on a medication.

I am still struggling with when/where to go. (the fun of having a severe anxiety disorder!) I know it makes more sense to go to Chicago for me because it is closer, but I get a better "vibe" from Dr. Hutto and the Canadian clinics. Also, might be nicer to get out of the cold this winter by going to Atlanta, but not nearly as convenient in the long run for getting boosters.

You will be in my thoughts. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you! Do stay in touch.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by SadDoggie on October 19, 2005, at 0:12:20

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on October 15, 2005, at 17:21:05

Do these places do low-frequency TMS, or TMS for OCD? I tried the regular high-frequency TMS but I did not fare well.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by Pfinstegg on October 19, 2005, at 8:00:25

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by SadDoggie on October 19, 2005, at 0:12:20

I think high frequency is used by the people we have been talking about. I did find out that the only active study going on at NIH now (with TMS) is for OCD. It might be worthwhile to find out how they are doing it, and what they think is most useful.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on October 19, 2005, at 8:27:01

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by Pfinstegg on October 19, 2005, at 8:00:25

I think the mindcare centers in Canada refer to OCD treatment on their websites. They do a different procedure for anxiety vs depression, so perhaps they do something different for OCD as well. They reply very rapidly to e-mail. Where did you get your rTMS done?

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on October 20, 2005, at 11:54:22

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on October 19, 2005, at 8:27:01

Have been in more contact with Dr. Best and he thinks Dr. Hutto would have more experience with a case like mine. He also indicated that a doctor in Milwaukee (very close to me) is doing rTMS but he did not indicate who it was and has not gotten back in touch with me again.

So, it looks like I'm down to Hutto or Mindcare centers at the moment.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on November 3, 2005, at 10:34:32

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on October 20, 2005, at 11:54:22

Qwerty, have you had your initial appointment with Dr. Hutto yet?

I have had further contact with the mindcare centres. They had sent me a lot of studies about rTMS for depression (left side rTMS) but nothing about the right sided they do for anxiety as well.

Yesterday I just got the studies for right side rTMS. They seem to deal mainly with PTSD. Am still trying to read through them.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by qwerty224466 on November 3, 2005, at 11:00:21

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on November 3, 2005, at 10:34:32

Yes - I am in Atlanta now. So far I am having mixed results, but it is too soon to tell. I will provide more details in a week.

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on November 3, 2005, at 11:33:43

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by qwerty224466 on November 3, 2005, at 11:00:21

What did Dr. Hutto think about your previous experiences with meds?

Has he expressed any opinions about wanting you to take meds after treatment?

How long have you been receiving treatments?

Are you receiving one per day?

Does it hurt?

What does "mixed results" mean?

Sorry to bother you with all these questions!

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by qwerty224466 on November 4, 2005, at 1:14:31

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on November 3, 2005, at 11:33:43

He didn't really say much, I did all the talking. I told him that all of the meds have either done nothing or made me feel worse. Because this response is so unusual, he probably thought to himself that I was just exaggerating to get attention. But I don't really care, I am used to psychiatrists not believing a word I say.

He hasn't mentioned anything about taking meds after treatment.

I have received four treatments so far, at a rate of one per day. It does hurt, but it hurts less with each treatment.

On day 1, I felt about the same after the treatment as I did before. On day 2, I felt a slight but noticeable mood lift for about ten hours following the treatment. On day 3, things went sharply downhill for some unknown reason, and I felt bad (ie worse than before day 1) for twelve hours following the treatment. On day 4, which is today, my mood dropped even more sharply. Today has been awful. Given the possiblity of another significant drop following tomorrow's treatment, I have opted to instead take a few days off, and return for another try on Monday.

 

Re: TMS Right vs Left

Posted by cecilia on November 4, 2005, at 3:48:14

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by ravenstorm on November 3, 2005, at 10:34:32

I'm curious about the right sided rTMS for anxiety. I had r TMS (left-sided) at the Mindcare Centre in Jan. of 2004. (No benefit). Nothing was ever mentioned about right-sided TMS, though it was pretty obvious I had both anxiety and depression. I think most people who have one also have the other, to varying degrees. I'm not about to go through that pain and expense again, but I'm curious how they decide which to treat and when they started doing the right sided treatment. Cecilia

 

Re: TMS - qwerty!

Posted by ravenstorm on November 6, 2005, at 12:11:47

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by qwerty224466 on November 4, 2005, at 1:14:31

I am sooooo sorry you are doing worse! What does Dr. Hutto think about that?? Has he ever had anyone else get worse?

That is one of my main concerns. I mean, it will be devastating enough if I spend all the money and it doesn't work. But if it made me worse. . . I tend to be in the .00001% of weird results and weird side effects, so this is a concern.

I asked about that at the mindcare centres, and they said they have never had anyone get worse, but they haven't dealt with that many patients yet, so you can't really go by that!!

Oh, I am just soooo sorry this is happening to you. I hope that things go better on Monday. Post as often as you need to for support. I will be thinking of you.

 

Re: TMS Right vs Left

Posted by ravenstorm on November 6, 2005, at 12:18:15

In reply to Re: TMS Right vs Left, posted by cecilia on November 4, 2005, at 3:48:14

Cecilia-

Which clinic did you go to (Vancouver or Toronto)?

I'm not sure when they started doing the right sided treatments. I found out about it when I asked them wether rTMS worked for anxiety as well as depression and they indicated that they do right sided for anxiety. Apparently, if I decide to go I will receive left sided for depression and right sided for anxiety.

You could email and ask when they started this. I think there is a lot LESS research on the right sided rTMS so I'm not sure whether it will do much anyways. I would also suspect that if you didn't respond to left sided, you probably wouldn't respond to right sided either, but what the hell do I know. The problem is, this is all relatively new, so the doctors/researchers don't know it all either!!

By the way, when you were receiving treatments, did you come into contact with any other patients? If so, did the treatment work for any of them?

Thanks!

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by Pfinstegg on November 6, 2005, at 12:27:49

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by qwerty224466 on November 4, 2005, at 1:14:31

I have researched ALL the TMS literature, and have never come across any mention of someone getting worse. All of it's actions are neuroprotective- increased activity in the left hemisphere, lowering of excess cortisol, normalizing NE, DO and SE levels, and increasing the activity of the D3 neurons in the hippocampus. It's certainly true that it doesn't help about half of the people who try it, but I don't think it can hurt.

I had a course of 15 treatments initially, and didn't feel any improvement for the first week, although I did improve a lot in the second and third weeks. I don't think looking at it day-to-day is the best way to judge its effectiveness. I would give it at least two full weeks before you decide it isn't helping. Because it's not yet an FDA-approved treatment, and you have to pay yourself, Dr. Hutto won't urge you to do it any more than you think is right. However, four days of treatment just isn't enough to know, one way or the other (in my opinion).

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by qwerty224466 on November 6, 2005, at 23:47:49

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by Pfinstegg on November 6, 2005, at 12:27:49

Pfinstegg, I guess I should have checked the research before describing my experience with the treatment. From now on I won't post anything that conflicts with the literature.

Ravenstorm, thanks for the kind words. My response to medications was very strange (many of them made me feel worse) so this is not a surprise. I wouldn't worry about it making you feel worse, the chances are slim to none that it will happen to us both.

 

Re: TMS Ravenstorm

Posted by Cecilia on November 7, 2005, at 3:09:51

In reply to Re: TMS Right vs Left, posted by ravenstorm on November 6, 2005, at 12:18:15

I had the rTMS at the Vancouver clinic. (20 treatments-2 a day for 2 weeks). The one woman I talked to about the treatments was on her 2nd three week course. She said that the 1st time she started to improve towards the end of the 2nd week, had a dramatic improvement the 3rd week, but relapsed within 6 weeks and returned for a second three week set of treatments. (Total of 60-at $200 each that`s expensive!) She said the second set of treatments helped but not as much as the first. I don`t know how she`s done since. Maybe she reads Psychobabble-if so, the nice lady who gave me a ride home from Vancouver, let us know how you`re doing! She didn`t find the treatments painful, but I sure did. Cecilia

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it?

Posted by ravenstorm on November 7, 2005, at 8:26:15

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by qwerty224466 on November 6, 2005, at 23:47:49

Qwerty--please don't apologize for contradicting the "literature"!! I am looking for peoples personal experiences.

After all, the literature on SSRI's (the prescribing information, for example, lists sexual side effects as very low, like 6% or less, but in the real world it is WAY higher than that. Also, the number of people receiving rTMS is still relatively small, so we won't see all the possible ramifications yet. Billions of people take antidepressants and we are still finding out what all they can do to people.

It makes sense to me that if any of these medications can make people worse (and they do to many people, not just you!!!!), than so could this in odd instances. Anything that affects brain chemicals can affect you negatively. Nothing is guaranteed with any of this.

I mean, it took the drug manufacturers YEARS to admit that SSRIs caused a risk of suicide.

Please don't feel as if you can't post your honest reaction.

I do agree with pfinstegg, however, that you can't judge if it is going to work by only four days. But you know yourself better than anyone and if you are spiralling down, only you can make that decision.

Since AD's make you worse, have the doctors ever considered trying you on a mood stabilizer or anti-convulsant? Hope you are doing OK. Continue to post for support and to let us know how you are doing. I feel for you!

Oh, I have also been in contact with someone in a trial (at a University, not through neuronetics) who received left sided first, was a very partial responder and is now being switched to right sided. He is feeling worse from the right sided. He indicated that they are doing "slow" right sided, though, and that in Canada they do "fast" right sided.

 

Re: TMS Cecilia

Posted by ravenstorm on November 7, 2005, at 8:52:24

In reply to Re: TMS Ravenstorm, posted by Cecilia on November 7, 2005, at 3:09:51

Thanks for the info! You know, they just paint such a rosey picture when you contact them at mindcentres!

I specifically asked what the earliest anyone has come back and they said most people come back in six to eight months but the earliest they had seen was two months(after I really pressed for the info) and that was because the person had had such a robust experience the first time around. They indicated that when you return for boosters you generally only need about half the treatments. ARGHHHHHHHH. I know they are a business that needs to attract customers, but I would like a little bit more honesty.

They continue to insist that the treatment works for 2 out of 3 people, whereas Dr. Hutto and Mark George are saying the results are more like 40%. I'd rather go to Dr. Hutto for his honesty, but I want to have the option of the right sided treatment with my anxiety!

In case you don't read the post above this, I have just found someone who is receiving a trial for rTMs (not through neuronetics) that started with left sided fast and since he only responded very partially they are moving on to right sided slow. He feels worse from the right sided slow and is going to see if they will then do right sided fast. I believe mindcare does the fast treatment both right and left but I will have to contact them to make sure.

Thanks so much for your continued input!

 

Re: TMS - where can I get it? » qwerty224466

Posted by Pfinstegg on November 7, 2005, at 10:09:30

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it?, posted by qwerty224466 on November 6, 2005, at 23:47:49

I didn't mean to imply that your reactions aren't valid, or that you shouldn't post them. As one of the other posters said, this is such a new treatment, and there's so much that isn't yet known- so everyone's reactions are very important- and helpful to others.

There is one thing which is worrying me about the right-sided TMS. In major depression, oner's left frontal cortex becomes underactive, while the right hemisphere, considered generally to be where one has recorded one's unconscious memories and traumas, continues as the more active hemisphere. While the TMS does lower stress hormones, temporarily, it has a stimulating effect on the cortex, which might not be desirable if applied to the hemisphere which is causing us to feel so much pain. But I just don't know! There is very little about right-sided TMS in the literature that I have been able to find.

I do hope you find that it is helping this week

 

Re: TMS - qwerty

Posted by ravenstorm on November 8, 2005, at 11:50:39

In reply to Re: TMS - where can I get it? » qwerty224466, posted by Pfinstegg on November 7, 2005, at 10:09:30

How are the treatments going this week? Are you feeling any better?

 

Re: TMS - qwerty

Posted by qwerty224466 on November 10, 2005, at 2:34:37

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty, posted by ravenstorm on November 8, 2005, at 11:50:39

So far, this week has gone better than last week. I felt bad after Monday's treatment, but Tuesday and Wednesday were not bad at all.

 

Re: Way to go Qwerty!!!!! (nm)

Posted by ravenstorm on November 10, 2005, at 7:53:32

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty, posted by qwerty224466 on November 10, 2005, at 2:34:37

 

Thank you » qwerty224466

Posted by pseudoname on November 15, 2005, at 8:17:14

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty, posted by qwerty224466 on November 10, 2005, at 2:34:37

Qwerty,

I really appreciate you reporting your TMS experience. Things seemed to move so fast. Your process is encouraging, even if the results aren't clear yet.

Let us know how things go this week. Any details appreciated.

Thanks again.

 

Re: TMS - qwerty » qwerty224466

Posted by Pfinstegg on November 15, 2005, at 9:39:47

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty, posted by qwerty224466 on November 10, 2005, at 2:34:37

Could you let us know a few more details of how you are doing?
(Much better, we all hope!)

 

Re: TMS - qwerty

Posted by ravenstorm on November 17, 2005, at 20:36:29

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty » qwerty224466, posted by Pfinstegg on November 15, 2005, at 9:39:47

Hi, I hope you are doing well, or at least hanging in there. How are you doing at the end of week 2 of treatment?

I have decided I am going to go to mindcare centers Toronto this February or March.

I hope you are OK!

 

Re: TMS - qwerty

Posted by qwerty224466 on November 18, 2005, at 16:40:39

In reply to Re: TMS - qwerty, posted by ravenstorm on November 17, 2005, at 20:36:29

On Tuesday and Wednesday I had a slight mood lift. But unfortunately Thursday was bad. I just felt bad and had suicidal thoughts for most of the day. Since it is my 14th treatment, and I have had very little response, we decided to throw in the towel unless I feel good for the remainder of today (Friday). So far I do.


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