Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 475145

Shown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!

Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 19:18:22

I'm on week 6 of a miniscule dose of Cymbalta. Started out on 30mg and went into a psychedelic orbit, dropped down to 3 pellets out of the 30mg capsule and got a definite AD response that has been steadily improving - with NO side effects (which were terrible at 30mg).

Now up to 13 pellets and feeling better than I have in years. This is amazing and I don't understand how this small dose can work, but it is. My life situation is very stressful right now, me on disability, husband out of work, issues that put me in the hospital early February. But for the first time in so long I feel a sense of capability, of hope, of inner strength - I can do this - instead of that bleak hopelessness I was constantly stuggling with.

This is important because I am also bipolar (am also taking 600mg Lithium) and have not done well on SSRIs or Lamictal, APs for controlling depression. This small dose seems to be just enough to do the job, but not so much that it causes problems associated with SSRIs for bipolars.

This is a very good med, a strong and immediate NE response that purportedly has pain relieving properties. But many have a miserable time on the recommended starting dose and toss it. Instead, take the capsule apart, wet your finger, count a few teensy pellets (you'll need your reading glasses) and swallow. I feel it each time I increase by 1 pellet. How can this be? I can only think about the Alfred Hoffer, unwitting discoverer of LSD, getting some lysergic acid dust on his finger and tripping madly for hours. Maybe it doesn't take all that much with our meds?

Maybe not all can enjoy it's unusual miniscule dosing properties like I have. Maybe it's just a bipolar thing or tweaky chemistry. But certainly worth a try. Despite the same ol' catastrpophic worries, I can sign myself - Peacefully, BarbaraCat.

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!

Posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:09:54

In reply to Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 19:18:22

Hi Barbaracat. This is wonderful news! A few months ago, I tried the 20 mg capsules of Cymbalta. At present, that is the lowest dose available. I was completely dysfunctional (horrific headache that made it impossible to lift my head from the pillow, totally "spaced out" so I couldn't drive) for a couple of days, and once again, I became enraged at these pharmaceutical companies that make it so difficult for those of us who just can't tolerate their so-called "therapeutic" doses. I've had several conversations here with Ritch, who takes a miniscule dose of liquid Celexa and that's what works for him. I think he said he takes 1/2 milligram every other day. Prior to that, he was on a tiny dose of Prozac for several years. Of course, he had to go through lots of adjustments downward from what the manufacturer recommended. As another poster (was it Phillippa?) has said, "One size does NOT fit all!" Now, I'm interested in the method you use to measure the grains or pellets of Cymbalta. Is each grain the same as the next in chemical composition? If they weren't, would they be of different colors? This is giving me hope. I'm in a difficult situation right now, so I may not be able to try Cymbalta again for about a month and a half. Present life events make it difficult to introduce new variables, but I do hope to give your method a try as soon as possible. Please keep us informed.

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Sarah T.

Posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 1:39:21

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!, posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:09:54

I've been talking with Ritch about this. He tried Cymbalta and 1mg was too much for him. He even worked out the dosage of each pellet but it's not certain that each pellet is that exact and they're different sizes (all miniscule). But I count the number anyway and it seems to work out. I'm working on a bottle of 30mg right now and don't know how other dose capsules translate. I'll probably call Lilly and will let you know.

My method is I open the capsule and empty the pellets into a small shallow container, lick my fingertip and press it onto some pellets. They're tiny and it takes a little practice to adjust the amount. Aim for less. I then just pop my finger in my mouth and swallow with water, food, saliva, whatever. I do this usually with breakfast. The pellets are enteric coated and can stand getting a little wet if you pick up too many and have to return them to the others. I work through the entire capsule which takes a long time. Definitely not cost effective for Lilly.

I had a wild ride on 30mg - hallucinations, migraine, nausea, mania. Don't know why I decided to even try except I sensed there was something worthwhile there. I went off it for 5 days just to see and by the 4th day was back in a bad state. The positive response on resuming was almost immediate.

Are you bipolar? There are some on this board who are taking 60mg and doing OK. I can't imagine. My therapist said she doesn't know a single person who has done well on Cymbalta except for me. There's another woman on this board who is having luck with it at very low doses too. If you do decide to try, I'd suggest 3 pellets to start and go up by one every few days if needed. I hope your difficult situation eases. My situation is difficult and unstable as well but I can cope so much better since my mood has lifted.


> Hi Barbaracat. This is wonderful news! A few months ago, I tried the 20 mg capsules of Cymbalta. At present, that is the lowest dose available. I was completely dysfunctional (horrific headache that made it impossible to lift my head from the pillow, totally "spaced out" so I couldn't drive) for a couple of days, and once again, I became enraged at these pharmaceutical companies that make it so difficult for those of us who just can't tolerate their so-called "therapeutic" doses. I've had several conversations here with Ritch, who takes a miniscule dose of liquid Celexa and that's what works for him. I think he said he takes 1/2 milligram every other day. Prior to that, he was on a tiny dose of Prozac for several years. Of course, he had to go through lots of adjustments downward from what the manufacturer recommended. As another poster (was it Phillippa?) has said, "One size does NOT fit all!" Now, I'm interested in the method you use to measure the grains or pellets of Cymbalta. Is each grain the same as the next in chemical composition? If they weren't, would they be of different colors? This is giving me hope. I'm in a difficult situation right now, so I may not be able to try Cymbalta again for about a month and a half. Present life events make it difficult to introduce new variables, but I do hope to give your method a try as soon as possible. Please keep us informed.

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!

Posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 4:30:46

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Sarah T., posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 1:39:21

> I've been talking with Ritch about this. He tried Cymbalta and 1mg was too much for him. He even worked out the dosage of each pellet but it's not certain that each pellet is that exact and they're different sizes (all miniscule). But I count the number anyway and it seems to work out. I'm working on a bottle of 30mg right now and don't know how other dose capsules translate. I'll probably call Lilly and will let you know.
>
> My method is I open the capsule and empty the pellets into a small shallow container, lick my fingertip and press it onto some pellets. They're tiny and it takes a little practice to adjust the amount. Aim for less. I then just pop my finger in my mouth and swallow with water, food, saliva, whatever. I do this usually with breakfast. The pellets are enteric coated and can stand getting a little wet if you pick up too many and have to return them to the others. I work through the entire capsule which takes a long time. Definitely not cost effective for Lilly.
>
> I had a wild ride on 30mg - hallucinations, migraine, nausea, mania. Don't know why I decided to even try except I sensed there was something worthwhile there. I went off it for 5 days just to see and by the 4th day was back in a bad state. The positive response on resuming was almost immediate.
>
> Are you bipolar? There are some on this board who are taking 60mg and doing OK. I can't imagine. My therapist said she doesn't know a single person who has done well on Cymbalta except for me. There's another woman on this board who is having luck with it at very low doses too. If you do decide to try, I'd suggest 3 pellets to start and go up by one every few days if needed. I hope your difficult situation eases. My situation is difficult and unstable as well but I can cope so much better since my mood has lifted.
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Barbaracat. This is wonderful news! A few months ago, I tried the 20 mg capsules of Cymbalta. At present, that is the lowest dose available. I was completely dysfunctional (horrific headache that made it impossible to lift my head from the pillow, totally "spaced out" so I couldn't drive) for a couple of days, and once again, I became enraged at these pharmaceutical companies that make it so difficult for those of us who just can't tolerate their so-called "therapeutic" doses. I've had several conversations here with Ritch, who takes a miniscule dose of liquid Celexa and that's what works for him. I think he said he takes 1/2 milligram every other day. Prior to that, he was on a tiny dose of Prozac for several years. Of course, he had to go through lots of adjustments downward from what the manufacturer recommended. As another poster (was it Phillippa?) has said, "One size does NOT fit all!" Now, I'm interested in the method you use to measure the grains or pellets of Cymbalta. Is each grain the same as the next in chemical composition? If they weren't, would they be of different colors? This is giving me hope. I'm in a difficult situation right now, so I may not be able to try Cymbalta again for about a month and a half. Present life events make it difficult to introduce new variables, but I do hope to give your method a try as soon as possible. Please keep us informed.


Hi,
I tried Cymbalta at 10 mg. (I always start lower than the doctors tell me to because you never know how theses meds are going to effect you.) The 10 mg. blew me away. I was so incredibly groggy with intense agitation combined. It was really horrible and it didn't seem to get better after a few days at the same dosage. I couldn't wait to get off of it. I just couldn't imagine how I would have felt if I had started on 30 mg. It would have been a nightmare. Part of the problem could have been that I tried it when I started experiencing Effexor withdrawal symptoms but still this medication scared me so much. Now that I'm reading about your success, I'm thinking that I should give it another try going really slowly. I have the samples here. I don't really have much to lose.

Kara

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS

Posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 12:40:15

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!, posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 4:30:46

> The 10 mg. blew me away. I was so incredibly groggy with intense agitation combined. I just couldn't imagine how I would have felt if I had started on 30 mg. It would have been a nightmare.

**Can you believe in the UK the starting dose is 60mg?! Poor people!

>>Part of the problem could have been that I tried it when I started experiencing Effexor withdrawal symptoms but still this medication scared me so much.

**I wondered if the fact that my meds were all over the place from having just been in the hospital (depression was that bad) was causing my bizarre reactions. But hearing from others on this board, most of us seem to be very sensitive to it, especially bipolars.

>>Now that I'm reading about your success, I'm thinking that I should give it another try going really slowly. I have the samples here. I don't really have much to lose.

**Hopefully just your depression :-) You might want to start with just 1 pellet. Believe me, I felt it at 3, felt them kick in about 2 hours after injesting. I thought 'this can't be' but my pupils became dilated just as they did on 30mg. Now, 6 weeks later, I only notice a slight effect when I increase, but enough to realize these things are potent.

Please keep in touch if you decide to try it. As more people experience this response I get even more amazed, and the word needs to get out. I truly hope others can benefit as I seem to be. - Barbara
>

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by Minnie-Haha on March 25, 2005, at 15:00:35

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 12:40:15

> **I wondered if the fact that my meds were all over the place from having just been in the hospital (depression was that bad) was causing my bizarre reactions. But hearing from others on this board, most of us seem to be very sensitive to it, especially bipolars...

I am Bipolar Type 2 and historically have needed the lowest, or less than the lowest, therapeutic dose for many drugs I've taken, but I was getting a great effect on Cymbalta at 60mg. I had to drop to 40mg because my blood pressure was up a little. I think this probably would not be a good drug for bipolars as a monotherapy, but in conjunction with a mood stabilizer (I take Trileptal), I think it could be helpful for many.

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Minnie-Haha

Posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 15:07:35

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by Minnie-Haha on March 25, 2005, at 15:00:35

Even so, others may need to go slow. At some point, 60mg might be a goal to shoot for, but not to start with. We're all different, but as a bipolar, I can't imagine it. And definitely a mood stabilizer on board.

>
> I am Bipolar Type 2 and historically have needed the lowest, or less than the lowest, therapeutic dose for many drugs I've taken, but I was getting a great effect on Cymbalta at 60mg. I had to drop to 40mg because my blood pressure was up a little. I think this probably would not be a good drug for bipolars as a monotherapy, but in conjunction with a mood stabilizer (I take Trileptal), I think it could be helpful for many.
>

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by Minnie-Haha on March 25, 2005, at 15:25:08

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Minnie-Haha, posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 15:07:35

> Even so, others may need to go slow...

Oh yes! I agree. I started at 30mg and did experience a few uncomfortable side effects the first couple of weeks, but others may have to start even lower.


> At some point, 60mg might be a goal to shoot for, but not to start with...

I agree again. And some may not need 60mg, even though that is the recommended therapeutic dose... and some may need 90 or 120mg! I'm learning that individual responses vary hugely!


> We're all different, but as a bipolar, I can't imagine it. And definitely a mood stabilizer on board...

Yes, yes, and Yes! on the mood stabilizer!!

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 17:13:37

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 12:40:15

> > The 10 mg. blew me away. I was so incredibly groggy with intense agitation combined. I just couldn't imagine how I would have felt if I had started on 30 mg. It would have been a nightmare.
>
> **Can you believe in the UK the starting dose is 60mg?! Poor people!


REALLY????? Unimaginable! I hope those who are meds sensitive know enough to open the capsules!


> >>Part of the problem could have been that I tried it when I started experiencing Effexor withdrawal symptoms but still this medication scared me so much.
>
> **I wondered if the fact that my meds were all over the place from having just been in the hospital (depression was that bad) was causing my bizarre reactions. But hearing from others on this board, most of us seem to be very sensitive to it, especially bipolars.

Could be. Who knows. Interesting that you think bipolars tend to be extremely sensitive to Cymbalta. I may be soft bipolar because of agitated depression. My last one was so severe and fit some of your description of mixed states in another post. I should have been hospitalized but I don't have health insurance. BTW, why do they call it "mixed states"? Does it refer to the combination of depression with anxiety?


> >>Now that I'm reading about your success, I'm thinking that I should give it another try going really slowly. I have the samples here. I don't really have much to lose.
>
> **Hopefully just your depression :-) You might want to start with just 1 pellet. Believe me, I felt it at 3, felt them kick in about 2 hours after injesting. I thought 'this can't be' but my pupils became dilated just as they did on 30mg. Now, 6 weeks later, I only notice a slight effect when I increase, but enough to realize these things are potent.

I was going to start with 3 pellets but now that you say that, I'll try starting with 1.

Do you have motivation on Cymbalta? I had none on Effexor or the SSRIs and I have none now. I would kill for motivation and the ability to leap out of bed in the morning to greet the day.


> Please keep in touch if you decide to try it. As more people experience this response I get even more amazed, and the word needs to get out. I truly hope others can benefit as I seem to be. - Barbara

Definitely. I live here :-) or should I say :-(.

Kara

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Minnie-Haha

Posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 18:48:13

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by Minnie-Haha on March 25, 2005, at 15:25:08

> > Even so, others may need to go slow...
> Oh yes! I agree. I started at 30mg and did experience a few uncomfortable side effects the first couple of weeks, but others may have to start even lower.

**Minnie, we're talking 3 pellets slow to start with - probably .01 mg. Please let me stress that the intention of this thread is not to praise Cymbalta in general, but to alert people that micro doses, impossibly small doses, may work well where low to standard doses are far too potent.

Cymbalta is an unusual med and some can take it, others are having a horrible time at even 1 mg. But reduce that to 15 or so pellets and voila, you've got a wonderful drug. So, I'm just trying to get word out about how effective this unusual dosing method can be.
>

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS

Posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 19:25:15

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 17:13:37

>>Interesting that you think bipolars tend to be extremely sensitive to Cymbalta. I may be soft bipolar because of agitated depression. My last one was so severe and fit some of your description of mixed states in another post. I should have been hospitalized but I don't have health insurance. BTW, why do they call it "mixed states"? Does it refer to the combination of depression with anxiety?

**Yes, someone described it 'depression on speed'. Until recently, bipolar was described as the classic depressed/euphoric poles. But now it's evident that bipolar 'mania' can also be irritability, distraction, disorganization, racing thoughts, anxiety. So if you get depression with any of these 'manic' symptoms, you can have 'mixed states'. Mine is very anxious and bleak with anguish, despair and some psychosis. Especially at these times, I'm very sensitive to everything - emotions, news, 'vibes', meds, foods. I was on the verge of a mixed state when I started Cymbalta cause they stopped lithium while I was hospitalized. You can imagine how far out of orbit I went.

I'm Bipolar I because I've had some flaming manias with psychosis, but mostly depression. All BP's appear to be sensitive to SSRI's and the criteria for BP-II is having hypomanias that can be exacerbated by meds and primarily depression. So when you say you may be 'soft BP', you may indeed be BP-II, in which case you definitely need some kind of mood stabilizer. If you're getting mixed states, unfortunately they tend to increase with time but can be prevented with the right mood stabilizer. Mine really picked up when I hit perimenopause before I was on lithium.

Lithium works well for me, wouldn't be without it. I owe my life to Lithium and might have had a semi-normal life had I discovered my need for it 30 years ago. Others prefer different kinds, but all bipolars need some kind of mood stabilizer, period.

Here's a really good website that has alot of information. You can follow links forever once you start exploring and there are some good ones on mixed states:

www.psycheducation.org
>
>
> > >>Now that I'm reading about your success, I'm thinking that I should give it another try going really slowly. I have the samples here. I don't really have much to lose.
> >
> > **Hopefully just your depression :-) You might want to start with just 1 pellet. Believe me, I felt it at 3, felt them kick in about 2 hours after injesting. I thought 'this can't be' but my pupils became dilated just as they did on 30mg. Now, 6 weeks later, I only notice a slight effect when I increase, but enough to realize these things are potent.
>
> I was going to start with 3 pellets but now that you say that, I'll try starting with 1.
>
> Do you have motivation on Cymbalta? I had none on Effexor or the SSRIs and I have none now. I would kill for motivation and the ability to leap out of bed in the morning to greet the day.
>
>
> > Please keep in touch if you decide to try it. As more people experience this response I get even more amazed, and the word needs to get out. I truly hope others can benefit as I seem to be. - Barbara
>
> Definitely. I live here :-) or should I say :-(.
>
> Kara

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 22:09:17

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 19:25:15

BTW, why do they call it "mixed states"? Does it refer to the combination of depression with anxiety?
>
> **Yes, someone described it 'depression on speed'. Until recently, bipolar was described as the classic depressed/euphoric poles. But now it's evident that bipolar 'mania' can also be irritability, distraction, disorganization, racing thoughts, anxiety. So if you get depression with any of these 'manic' symptoms, you can have 'mixed states'. Mine is very anxious and bleak with anguish, despair and some psychosis. Especially at these times, I'm very sensitive to everything - emotions, news, 'vibes', meds, foods. I was on the verge of a mixed state when I started Cymbalta cause they stopped lithium while I was hospitalized. You can imagine how far out of orbit I went.

I didn't have, nor have I ever had, the racing thoughts. I have the anxiety, irritability along with the anguish, despair, anhedonia and the extreme sensitivity. I couldn't watch tv at all. Everything was too painful. It was bizarre. However, I started on 25 mg. of doxepin and it took care of the anxiety completely as well as the extreme sensitivity. I'm depressed still but functioning. I can watch tv now without feeling like I'm a raw nerve. Yet I'm not on any mood stabilizer. Would the fact that doxepin helped so much suggest that I hadn't been in a BP mixed state?


> I'm Bipolar I because I've had some flaming manias with psychosis, but mostly depression. All BP's appear to be sensitive to SSRI's and the criteria for BP-II is having hypomanias that can be exacerbated by meds and primarily depression. So when you say you may be 'soft BP', you may indeed be BP-II, in which case you definitely need some kind of mood stabilizer. If you're getting mixed states, unfortunately they tend to increase with time but can be prevented with the right mood stabilizer. Mine really picked up when I hit perimenopause before I was on lithium.

I have been taking SSRIs and SNRIs for years without a problem. Recently, after withdrawing from Effexor, I have found that I couldn't tolerate them. They have seemed too activating of my anxiety. A sign that I'm BP-II? I wonder why I never had a problem with the SSRIs before now. For one thing I never took them when I was that anxious, never took them after Effexor withdrawal and always was on 25 mg. of doxepin too. Anway the SSRIs were only partially helpful in alleviating my depression though so I think I may have needed a mood stabilizer all along.

Sorry I'm rambling on here. I'm just confused because I have some of the signs of BP illness but not others. Probably the only thing to do at this point is try a mood stabilizer and see what it does for me. I'll probably try lithium orotate first. If that works out well, then there would be no need to start with more meds.

Anyway, thanks for all of your help and the website. I'll check it out. Take care and I wish you continued success with the Cymbalta.

Kara

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS

Posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 0:27:41

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 22:09:17

Dear Kara,
Here's what I think, from my my honest heart. We may call them 'mood stabilizers', anti-anxiety meds, whatever, but whatever it takes to soothe a broken heart. There is a certain kind of sensitivity that I think you and I and many others share that is called 'too sensitive'. We are indeed raw nerves. Canaries in the coal mines. Probably in another time and place we would be called priestesses or shamans. For now, we're 'too sensitive'. Someone has to keep this world an honest place.

If doxepin does it for you, amen sister. For me, my drug of choice is a nice opiod. But that isn't quite legal, and so I'm confined to what is. I trutly believe this: whatever allows you a good night's sleep, whether moral issues resolved or chemically induced, is worthwhile. If you can laugh honestly and love unreservedly, whether the object is animal or human, Amen to that. The times we live in create bizarre ways of coping. If we can find a community of friends in this world of suffering anyway, well, how can we ask for more? However, we CAN ask for more when we're not getting what we need. We settle far too easily when it comes to the happiness we deserve.

My personal feeling is that few of us on this hard road are getting what we need from the medical community because they're suffering too. They don't have the training or the finances. Our current drug remedies are pitiful and inadequate and dicated by big business. So we have to keep seeking, whatever it takes, and NEVER stop keeping the faith. There are SO MANY of us out there thinking we're alone and it's tragic. I've come to believe that there is not one single person alive who doesn't feel this pain and yet still believes we deal with it all alone. Is it any wonder that the immensity of this world causes sensitive souls to suffer terribly? BUT here we are, living in a time when chemistry can indeed work magick.

This board can help and I know that if you're experiencing true bipolar mixed states, you've come to the right place for immediate answers. But don't expect a one-size fits all easy answer. Books, songs and biographies don't get written about us going through this stuff for no reason.

Keep on searching for that chemical and spiritual spark that balances you no matter how much it takes. For me it's lithium and tiny specks of Cymbalta. It's meditating, dancing and eating pure bunches of vegetables and drinking spring water when I can, loving my critters, friends and husband - when I can. I can't always, but I'm greatful for the times I can.

My hormones were royally screwed but I shelled out good money I didn't have to test them and treat them and boy, I'm glad I did. All these things are my path but it never stops. It's not just drugs but drugs to help me keepin' on. May we all find happiness, may we all find our path. Love, BarbaraCat

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS

Posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 1:14:13

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on March 25, 2005, at 22:09:17

Kara,
One more thing - I tried 3 times with lithium orotate. Gave it every chance but no luck, and with my thyroid problems I REALLY wanted it to work. The forms of lithium you hear about are orotate, citrate and carbonate. The only one that seems to work for bipolars is carbonate. No matter what the Serenity folks, Dr. Nieper or others say on this matter, lithium orotate does not work for the vast majority. Neither does lithium citrate, touted by mineral products and waters from therapeutic spas.

Just a head's up, but also know that there have been a few sucesses with orotate over the years. Two that I recall. They post and then are never heard from again - hopefully a good sign. Another head's up is that you don't have to take the excessive doses of Li carbonate usually prescribed to reach 'therapeutic levels'. Much less works just fine. Can't you tell? :-{ No, really! ;-o

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!

Posted by JKL on March 26, 2005, at 4:42:41

In reply to Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 19:18:22

I remember once having a great response to desipramine in teensy weensy doses. I was scared to start at the dose the doctor suggested, so I started with just a quarter of a 25mg dose. I knew within hours that was way too much. Next day I just took a little tiny chunk, and wow. I was probably getting only 5mg or less of the drug, but boy was it noticeable and nice. But even at that small dose, I couldn't take the dry mouth side effect. It was intense. I ended up not staying with it due to the side effects. But I must admit, a miniscule dose made me feel good. I wondered how in the world could anyone possibly do 75mg or 150mg. Yikes.

 

Re: Desipramine » JKL

Posted by ed_uk on March 26, 2005, at 9:08:26

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great!, posted by JKL on March 26, 2005, at 4:42:41

Hello,

Some people are slow metabolisers of tricyclic antidepressants, perhaps you are. Different people get massively different blood concentrations from taking the same dose. You probably had quite a high blood concentration even though you took a tiny dose. You could be a slow hydroxylator of desipramine, this is due to genetic factors. Desipramine is hydroxylated by the enzyme CYP2D6, you may have a low level of this enzyme.

Since many other psych drugs are also metabolised by the same enzyme (CYP2D6) as desipramine, it would make sense for you to start all drugs that are metabolised by this enzyme at low doses to test your response. You may have a lot of side effects from 'standard' doses, this could be overcome by taking a smaller dose.

If you were taking any other medication at the time you took desipramine, that may have increased the blood level of desipramine. You might not be a slow metaboliser! Certain drugs such as Paxil can greatly increase desipramine blood levels by inhibiting CYP2D6. Many other drugs also inhibit CYP2D6.

Another possibility is that you are just very sensitive to the pharmacological properties of desipramine ie. NE reuptake inhibition, anticholinergic.

Ed.

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 17:05:52

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 0:27:41

> Dear Kara,
> Here's what I think, from my my honest heart. We may call them 'mood stabilizers', anti-anxiety meds, whatever, but whatever it takes to soothe a broken heart. There is a certain kind of sensitivity that I think you and I and many others share that is called 'too sensitive'. We are indeed raw nerves. Canaries in the coal mines. Probably in another time and place we would be called priestesses or shamans. For now, we're 'too sensitive'. Someone has to keep this world an honest place.
>
> If doxepin does it for you, amen sister. For me, my drug of choice is a nice opiod. But that isn't quite legal, and so I'm confined to what is. I trutly believe this: whatever allows you a good night's sleep, whether moral issues resolved or chemically induced, is worthwhile. If you can laugh honestly and love unreservedly, whether the object is animal or human, Amen to that. The times we live in create bizarre ways of coping. If we can find a community of friends in this world of suffering anyway, well, how can we ask for more? However, we CAN ask for more when we're not getting what we need. We settle far too easily when it comes to the happiness we deserve.
>
> My personal feeling is that few of us on this hard road are getting what we need from the medical community because they're suffering too. They don't have the training or the finances. Our current drug remedies are pitiful and inadequate and dicated by big business. So we have to keep seeking, whatever it takes, and NEVER stop keeping the faith. There are SO MANY of us out there thinking we're alone and it's tragic. I've come to believe that there is not one single person alive who doesn't feel this pain and yet still believes we deal with it all alone. Is it any wonder that the immensity of this world causes sensitive souls to suffer terribly? BUT here we are, living in a time when chemistry can indeed work magick.
>
> This board can help and I know that if you're experiencing true bipolar mixed states, you've come to the right place for immediate answers. But don't expect a one-size fits all easy answer. Books, songs and biographies don't get written about us going through this stuff for no reason.
>
> Keep on searching for that chemical and spiritual spark that balances you no matter how much it takes. For me it's lithium and tiny specks of Cymbalta. It's meditating, dancing and eating pure bunches of vegetables and drinking spring water when I can, loving my critters, friends and husband - when I can. I can't always, but I'm greatful for the times I can.
>
> My hormones were royally screwed but I shelled out good money I didn't have to test them and treat them and boy, I'm glad I did. All these things are my path but it never stops. It's not just drugs but drugs to help me keepin' on. May we all find happiness, may we all find our path. Love, BarbaraCat


Thanks BarbaraCat.
I always enjoy reading your posts with their philosophical edge and cultural commentary. I suppose it doesn't matter so much what our labels are but rather that we find the treatments that work for us. Doxepin treats my anxiety but the depression and the need to find more meaning in life remains. The soul searching will continue regardless of what medications or supplements I end up taking. Such is the struggle for us sensitive, driven-to-understand-what-it's-all-about types. I too wish us all success in finding happiness and our path.

Kara

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 17:08:05

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS, posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 1:14:13

> Kara,
> One more thing - I tried 3 times with lithium orotate. Gave it every chance but no luck, and with my thyroid problems I REALLY wanted it to work. The forms of lithium you hear about are orotate, citrate and carbonate. The only one that seems to work for bipolars is carbonate. No matter what the Serenity folks, Dr. Nieper or others say on this matter, lithium orotate does not work for the vast majority. Neither does lithium citrate, touted by mineral products and waters from therapeutic spas.
>
> Just a head's up, but also know that there have been a few sucesses with orotate over the years. Two that I recall. They post and then are never heard from again - hopefully a good sign. Another head's up is that you don't have to take the excessive doses of Li carbonate usually prescribed to reach 'therapeutic levels'. Much less works just fine. Can't you tell? :-{ No, really! ;-o
>

Interesting. Are you suggesting that the 2 posters who talked about success with lithium orotate were just sales plants?

 

I can believe it

Posted by linkadge on March 26, 2005, at 20:15:13

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 17:08:05

I read a few studies which showed that in a few circumstances, an A.D. will raise BDNF at a "subtheraputic dose" and actually decrease it at more "theraputic doses". I will try to find the study. It was done on rats with amitryptaline. The same is true for exercise. Exercising a certain amount will increase BDNF, but futher exercise can actually deccrease it.

I think that the drug companies push for higher doses than what was shown in animal models to help depression because they want to get you hooked on them forever.


Linkadge


 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » KaraS

Posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 20:57:52

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat, posted by KaraS on March 26, 2005, at 17:08:05

Lithium Orotate: No, I think they were very sincere. I responded with one of them a few times whose child was still doing great on it and he recommended it very highly. Don't remember his name but a search would find him. In fact, there were a number of people who tried it, but as I followed their experiences, it seemed they were either disappointed or were never heard from again. But that sometimes happens when people start feeling better on this board.

The first time I tried, I ran out of carbonate and figured it was a good time to try the orotate. I took the recommended 1 pill a day, then 2. Stuck it out for 3 weeks but went manic anyway. That one was a doozy. I spent over a thousand dollars on garden projects, pumps and fixings to make fountains, kept buying pallets of bedding plants and not digging holes to plants them. My husband was alarmed since neither of us were employed at the time. Carbonate pulled me out in a few days before I broke the bank. Nothing got completed, of course and the stuff joined the piles of my other grand projects in the garage.

The next time, the same thing, ran out of carbonate, still had some orotate around, but this time used 4 orotate pills day and went hypomanic. Figured it was because I had discontinued the carbonate abruptly and so the next and last time I slowly tapered off the carbonate while ramping up the orotate from 3 pills to eventually 5 pills a day. That time it took a little longer and I thought it was finally working, but nope. Each time I was impressed at how quickly it took for the carbonate to clear my head, calm me down, center me. Each time I remember saying 'I'll never do that again.'

The whole idea behind the orotate is it's supposed enhanced bioavailable transport system allows less to be used, thereby avoiding the problems of having to metabolize the typical high doses used in carbonate. But at 5 pills, I was taking more milligrams than with the carbonate, and it plain didn't work. I tried both the Serenity brand and the Advanced Research brand, supposedly the best one.

I honestly don't know what to think of the possible marketing hype angle. Alot of websites sell it and make fantastic claims and the rationale sounds good. Perhaps if you're mildly bipolar (hmmm, isn't that like 'mildly pregnant'?) you can benefit from orotate. Also, research is showing that lithium is neuroprotective, and a darn good brain nutrient. So maybe if someone isn't bipolar but wants the benefit of lithium, orotate in a mild form will provide it. But for real bipolar illness the word out there as well as my own experience says that there's no substitute for carbonate. It would be interesting to do a search and see what recent threads say. It was a hot topic on the Alternative board for a while. I think there were alot more 'does it work?' than success stories, however. I don't need any more convincing it doesn't work for me, but let me know what you think.

On the home front, I'm needing a bit of my own philosophy. I read some of my pep talks and think 'was that me?' when I'm down. Fighting off a respiratory bug that had my husband in bed for 2 weeks and I'm feeling yucky. Makes me realize how important health and energy are to mood. - Barbara

> Interesting. Are you suggesting that the 2 posters who talked about success with lithium orotate were just sales plants?
>
>

 

Re: I can believe it » linkadge

Posted by barbaracat on March 26, 2005, at 21:12:18

In reply to I can believe it, posted by linkadge on March 26, 2005, at 20:15:13

Yeah, try to find that article, Linkadge. I remember hearing something about it a while back - maybe from you, but it caught my eye. My question is, is the increase in BDNF sustained?

I too have a funny feeling that high doses cause getting hooked and damaged and drug companies know exactly what they're doing. I was on 300mg zoloft for 2 years. Could practically smell the synapses frying. Gives me great comfort that brain cells regenerate. One of the reasons I'm a lithium fan is for it's neuroregenerative benefits.

BTW, just heard that the kid on the Indian reservation who shot all those people had his Prozac increased the week before. Just like Columbine, just like Springfield, the kids were either on SSRIs or stopped them abruptly. - Barbara


> I read a few studies which showed that in a few circumstances, an A.D. will raise BDNF at a "subtheraputic dose" and actually decrease it at more "theraputic doses". I will try to find the study. It was done on rats with amitryptaline. The same is true for exercise. Exercising a certain amount will increase BDNF, but futher exercise can actually deccrease it.
>
> I think that the drug companies push for higher doses than what was shown in animal models to help depression because they want to get you hooked on them forever.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>

 

Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » barbaracat

Posted by Sarah T. on March 26, 2005, at 21:46:38

In reply to Re: Cymbalta - teensy weensy dose still working great! » Sarah T., posted by barbaracat on March 25, 2005, at 1:39:21

Hi Barbara.
Thanks for your help on how to go about the micro-dosing of Cymbalta. In answer to your question, no, I'm not bipolar; however, I am very sensitive to chemicals of all kinds, including alternative meds and even topically applied ointments. In the latter case, I figure that there must be a significant amount of systemic absorption of some dermatologic creams because I've become ill from things like Lamisil ointment and several brands of anti-fungal foot powder.

Thanks again. Please keep us up-to-date on your progress.


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