Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 383758

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Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by alesta on August 29, 2004, at 16:49:05

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

hi, francesco,:)

well, yes, it's possible. I, too, have read somewhere that in the short run most meds are no problem but that after 10 years damage begins, or something. it was probably breggin that i read as well.

so i wonder if breggin is the only person to conclude this? is his evidence credible? i'm glad you asked this question. sorry i can't give you a definitive answer, but i'm really curious what others have to say...

take care,
amy


 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by Sebastian on August 29, 2004, at 16:53:46

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

Could it just be the results of age?

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by theo on August 29, 2004, at 17:18:59

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

I know we are talking about antidepressants here, but many people abuse alcohol for years and years and I can't see meds being any worse.

I've seen people in recovery that have abused substances for years that seem to snap back.

But, maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2004, at 18:01:25

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by theo on August 29, 2004, at 17:18:59

The only thing that I can offer for consoladation is the following.

Certain people are genetically missing MAO-A genes. Which means that they are virtally devoid of MAO-A. They have elevated serotonin and norepinephrine. Do these people's brains naturally dammage themselves ???

I think that serotonin levels vary from person to person. If you take excessive doses of AD's for long periods of time I can see there being a problem, but I think that the correct dose is probably not harmful.

Anyother thing, If I recall correctly, is that the only studies that he sites, are the ones that used fluoxetine in doses of 50-100 times the maxiumum human dose.

Another thing, is that depression most of the time, is neurodegenerative by nature. The majority of the well planned studies show that
*untreated* depression leads to significant hippocampal atrophy, and that antidepressant treatment ameliorates that shrinkage. It could be quite possible, that you would be a lot *worse* if you didn't medicate.

My mother describes my great-grandmother who went through 4- clinical depressions in her lifetime, *pre antidepressants*. She said this: "she recovered from every depressionm but a little peice of her was not the same"

Linkadge

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by cpallen79 on August 29, 2004, at 18:29:50

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2004, at 18:01:25

I have to say I agree with this. Could SSRIs do "damage"?? maybe, but then again, whats the trade off? Furthermore, chemistry changes as you age. Problems that may not have surfaced when you were young may bubble up as many of us have learned. I personally find some of Dr. Breggin's information suspect. I have also found that avoiding medication when I needed it most because of believing Dr. Breggin and his follower's dribble has made recovery from my problems a much more painful and lengthier process because my most recent depression was very traumatic, and I am STILL feeling the shockwaves from it. Avoiding medication was one of the worst things one can do in a situation like this... My mom went through a serious depression years ago, avoided medication and spent 3 YEARS in hell. I say, ignore Dr. Breggin and his agenda and get medication when you need it.

> The only thing that I can offer for consoladation is the following.
>
> Certain people are genetically missing MAO-A genes. Which means that they are virtally devoid of MAO-A. They have elevated serotonin and norepinephrine. Do these people's brains naturally dammage themselves ???
>
> I think that serotonin levels vary from person to person. If you take excessive doses of AD's for long periods of time I can see there being a problem, but I think that the correct dose is probably not harmful.
>
> Anyother thing, If I recall correctly, is that the only studies that he sites, are the ones that used fluoxetine in doses of 50-100 times the maxiumum human dose.
>
> Another thing, is that depression most of the time, is neurodegenerative by nature. The majority of the well planned studies show that
> *untreated* depression leads to significant hippocampal atrophy, and that antidepressant treatment ameliorates that shrinkage. It could be quite possible, that you would be a lot *worse* if you didn't medicate.
>
> My mother describes my great-grandmother who went through 4- clinical depressions in her lifetime, *pre antidepressants*. She said this: "she recovered from every depressionm but a little peice of her was not the same"
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2004, at 18:47:00

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by cpallen79 on August 29, 2004, at 18:29:50

I agree, this type of literature is very irresponsable.

THe reason for this is the following: the people who are going to be *most* susceptable to fully buying into breggin's claims are the people who are the most seriously depressed.

Breggin is *trying* to adress the people who are using AD's for cosmetic reasons, but these are the people who most quickly shrug off the claims made by breggin. The people to whom this information is most detremental are the people who need the treatment the most.

It was very stupid of him to write the book. Clearly he knew that jumping on the bandwagon of sensationalist antipharmacology literature during these times would be sure to cash him into a bestseller postition.

Linkadge

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge

Posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 19:09:39

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2004, at 18:47:00

> I agree, this type of literature is very irresponsable.
>
> THe reason for this is the following: the people who are going to be *most* susceptable to fully buying into breggin's claims are the people who are the most seriously depressed.
>
> Breggin is *trying* to adress the people who are using AD's for cosmetic reasons, but these are the people who most quickly shrug off the claims made by breggin. The people to whom this information is most detremental are the people who need the treatment the most.
>
> It was very stupid of him to write the book. Clearly he knew that jumping on the bandwagon of sensationalist antipharmacology literature during these times would be sure to cash him into a bestseller postition.
>
> Linkadge

Actually, Breggin opposes the use of all psychotropic medication, and his opposition antedates the widespread use of Prozac etc.

I also think peter Kramer has done even more damage than Breggin, because breggin is obviously a quack, while Kramer is typical of the average psychiatrist in the U.S. Kramer talks about how when he would prescibe meds for his depressed patients, he had to listen to their complaints about being constipated, dry mouth, and so on, and of course the patients needed to be monitored for signs of suicidality because the pills were fatal in overdose. kramer was euphoric that he could dole out drugs that his patients didn't complain about, and their nonlethality made virtually every mental health professional in the U.S. complacent about handing out medication. The quality of care declined as SSRI prescriptions multiplied. Creating the perfect situation for Breggin to move in.

-z

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by mike lynch on August 29, 2004, at 22:06:55

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge, posted by zeugma on August 29, 2004, at 19:09:39

I think in a select number of people they do..I've only been on them a year..and upon coming off of them..I have had really bad cognitive problems such as HORRIBLE memory, concentration, comprehension, problem solving and speech problems...these are problems I never dealt with before being on meds..and the continued use of ad's have not resolved these problem I have been convinced it is the meds that have caused this and not depression...I wish it was the depression but after tons of reserach it just doesent check out... I don't even feel depressed I feel extremely anhedonic

I found there are many things I use to do with ease in the past that I now have a great difficulty with..as of now I regret ever taking paxil.

P.s I am not a hypochondriac..as if anything I have a habit of underdiagnosing myself..there have been many instances where I was extremely sick and thought nothing of it...when there was definitely something serious going on..

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by mike lynch on August 29, 2004, at 22:08:35

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by mike lynch on August 29, 2004, at 22:06:55

one thing. I absolutely HATE the word permanent i'd like to think i'd return back to normal in due time..even though i've gone long periods of time without them without ever feeling like my normal self....I hope the brain is able to repair itself..

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by waki on August 29, 2004, at 23:27:43

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

fransesco,
which tryciclics are you on?

what does it do for your adhd?

do these tryciclics speed you up or sedate you?


regarding the permenent damage.

i think if meds are given to balance a defeciency then one would not ge negitively effected.

however if one takes meds that are foreign or in excess then anything is possible.

share with me everything you thinks about tryciclics. I would like to try them next to evaluate if I am missing out on anything....

my docs all think i'm too productive and accomplished to have add.

I think their wrong. Tuesday im seeing a therapist to self help and imporve myself. However I want them to give me a test.
Accomplished or not, I think I have it.

I've been trying to study for a law school exam and my mind refuses to concentrate. Something I focus and kick butt better then anyone, other things i just can't concentrate for the life of me.

My p-doc says that long term depression will kill memory. He also says that he believes if the depression is treated the memory will get better.


if you have adhd; this is your memory eater.....

 

Long-term AD use worsening depression? francesco

Posted by sb417 on August 29, 2004, at 23:28:57

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

Hello Francesco. I think you might be interested in reading an article by Giovanni Fava that appeared in the February 2003 issue of THE JOURNAL OF CLINICAL PSYCHIATRY. The title is "Can Long-Term Treatment with Antidepressant Drugs Worsen the Course of Depression?" I understand what you're saying about not wanting to hear "wishful thinking." Actually, it's important to have hope; however, denial is of no help. There is some of that on this board, but I think it's much more prevalent on other message boards that I used to spend time on. I've actually seen some posters desperately trying to convince themselves that amphetamines are neuroprotective. They feel assured if they find one reference for one study suggesting the possibility of what they're hoping for; meanwhile, they conveniently ignore the thousands upon thousands of other studies pointing to amphetamines' neurotoxicity.

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? francesco

Posted by luther on August 30, 2004, at 2:52:59

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

I believe it is possible. The pharmaceutical business is in the trillions of dollars and they even have the power to dictate government policy and influence presidential elections. They would like for every man, woman and child on the planet to be on an A/D. For some of us there is no other choice. For others there are choices. Some people take Prozac because it causes weight loss and others think it will give them some type of advantage in the workplace as in smarter or more outgoing. Lilly even has the stuff for dogs, yes I'm serious. Like I said though some of us have no other choice after being diagnosed with a disorder. I hate to get into genetics, but it kind of comes down to that. Look at all the near sighted people in the world. Yes, now we have laser correction. If a person that had coke bottle glasses lived a thousand years ago would they have survived to pass on these nearsightedness genes? Probably not. It is sort of the same with psychological disorders. Would it be difficult to survive and pass on the genes for a disorder without some of these medications, unlikely. So every generation there will be more disorders until the magic bullet is found like with laser optical surgery. I'm not being critical of anyone, I have the coke bottle glasses and GAD, SAD and Dysthymia/Atypical Depression. Without Valium and Nardil I would most likely not have my lovely daughter. She could end up with my disorders, but some are more environmental than genetic. I was severely abused by my father which led to GAD, then SAD as a result and dealing with both of these caused my Dysthemia/Atypical Depression, even though I may have had a genetic predisposition to depression/anxiety. Once an A/D is started I really believe we are addicted to them the rest of our lives because the neurotransmitters that are increased will go down below the previous level before the A/D was taken. Sort of like an alcoholic never having a drink can't become one in the first place. The world is constantly evolving at the most rapid pace in the history of our species and some people are more suited to the communication age we now live in. I've done some reading about the hormone CRH and the flight or fight response that we really don't need in our current society, but in the past it may had been a great advantage to have a lot of this hormone. Faced with a Sabre Toothed Tiger your adrenalin would kick in to give extra strength and alertness. Today we need much less of that hormone, but some of us have too much leading to disorders in todays society. I may be way off and the Chemist might have a better answer. Hope I've been of some help.
Sincerely,
Luther

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by denise528 on August 30, 2004, at 4:23:46

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

Hi,

Well I came off antidepressants completely about 8 years ago and after I'd got through the withdrawal phase was fine, definitely better than how I was before I ever started taking them.

The reason I came off them was for a number of reasons, one of the reasons was because of the scaremongering surrounding Antideppressants. Anyway three years ago I started gettting the worst bout of depression I've ever had, I was suicidal for the first time ever and for no apparent reason so at that time I really wished I'd never come off them. Being off Antidepressants certainly didn't help me in the long run. Maybe I should have had cognitive therapy when I came off them, I really don't know, it's so difficult to know what to do.

Denise

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 11:45:09

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by denise528 on August 30, 2004, at 4:23:46

I have been experiencing withdrawal effects from Effexor XR for about 3 months now. I have had withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, dizziness, blurred vision, and now depression. I went off of Effexor (as well as Paxil and Zoloft within the past year or so) because I was having similar symptoms on the drugs. I have had much fear about what I am feeling and even though I have been through therapy, much of what I have been feeling doesn't make sense. I am thinking of starting back on Effexor once again after 3 months of withdrawal to soothe the withdrawal symptoms as well as help with my depression. Does anyone have any other suggestions?


 

i don't think amphet. neurotoxicity has been prove

Posted by alesta on August 30, 2004, at 11:55:11

In reply to Long-term AD use worsening depression? francesco, posted by sb417 on August 29, 2004, at 23:28:57

<meanwhile, they conveniently ignore the thousands upon thousands of other studies pointing to amphetamines' neurotoxicity.

concerning amphetamine neurotoxicity: at **extremely** high doses over time they caused permanent damage, while ritalin did not. please see my recent thread "are stimulants neurotoxic?" but it is still not proven that amphetamines are neurotoxic by any means. just that at **unbelievably** high doses, they cause damage. well, what wouldn't? so i there is no real evidence (unless someone can provide some studies?) of amphetamine neurotoxicity.

amy :)

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? tablasco1

Posted by alesta on August 30, 2004, at 12:30:04

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by tablasco1 on August 30, 2004, at 11:45:09

i *knew* effexor was going to come up in this thread.:) i truly feel that effexor is in a class all of its own, and would not touch this drug with a 10-foot pole. i don't want to see this menace of a drug give the others a bad name...(and, yes, i know some have had success on it, but there are many, many horror stories/bad reactions to this particular drug...it is criminal, i feel, for this drug to not come with some *serious* warnings.)

poster, i am *so* sorry you are going through this. i hope someone can help you. i wouldn't go back on the effexor. perhaps you could try another med or a natural remedy. there are many that could help you. let me know if you'd like more info...good luck to you.

take care,
amy


> I have been experiencing withdrawal effects from Effexor XR for about 3 months now. I have had withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, dizziness, blurred vision, and now depression. I went off of Effexor (as well as Paxil and Zoloft within the past year or so) because I was having similar symptoms on the drugs. I have had much fear about what I am feeling and even though I have been through therapy, much of what I have been feeling doesn't make sense. I am thinking of starting back on Effexor once again after 3 months of withdrawal to soothe the withdrawal symptoms as well as help with my depression. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
>
>
>

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? francesco

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 31, 2004, at 7:46:13

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

> I would like to know how many of you believe in this theory but I would prefer not to hear 'wishful thinking'. We all wish that this were not true but I would like to understand if, in your opinion, it *can* be true.

Major depression, particularly the recurrent sort, is a progressive disease. There are marked changes in brain function (as measured by certain types of functional imagery). Some, but not all, of those abnormal functions, respond to e.g. drug therapy. Others respond to e.g. cognitive therapy. But nothing has yet been shown to restore the brain to "normal" function, even during periods of remission of symptoms. Time marches on. The brain ages during treatment, just as it does at any other time. Aging takes its toll. The brain continues to be assaulted by the progression of the disease, even during treatment. I don't think there is any real way to differentiate between the effects of drug treatment, and the effects of the disease progression itself. Adverse effects of drug treatment are certainly possible, and may be, with some certainty, seen in a particular group of treated individuals, but we view the situation through hindsight, and without a control subject for comparison purposes.

Here's a link to an earlier thread on the subject:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030423/msgs/221978.html

Lar

 

Depression itself causes permament damage

Posted by utopizen on August 31, 2004, at 13:44:00

In reply to permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by francesco on August 29, 2004, at 16:36:06

the hypothylmus, according to a study from last summer, was found to be visibly reduced in size in patients not treated for depression but who had depression for a prolonged time.

The moral of the story was, stick to your meds. Even when you feel better.

 

Re: Depression itself causes permament damage utopizen

Posted by sb417 on August 31, 2004, at 19:44:15

In reply to Depression itself causes permament damage, posted by utopizen on August 31, 2004, at 13:44:00

Hello Utopizen. Do you mean the hippocampus? I thought it is the hippocampus that atrophies as a result of chronic depression and from the highly elevated cortisol that often occurs in depression. Perhaps the hypothalamus atrophies also, but I've read mainly about the hippocampus.

 

Re: Depression itself causes permament damage

Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2004, at 20:09:10

In reply to Re: Depression itself causes permament damage utopizen, posted by sb417 on August 31, 2004, at 19:44:15

My understanding was the hippocampas too. But saying permanent dammage is a little misleading as antidepressants more often than not have been shown to halt/revers depression induced atrophy.

Linkadge

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge

Posted by francesco on September 4, 2004, at 11:47:34

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2004, at 18:01:25

> The only thing that I can offer for consoladation is the following.
>
> Certain people are genetically missing MAO-A genes. Which means that they are virtally devoid of MAO-A. They have elevated serotonin and norepinephrine. Do these people's brains naturally dammage themselves ???

I don't think that taking antidepressants that elevate serotonin and norephinephrine is the same thing that missing MAO-A genes. Antidepressant have also other effects, don't they ?

 

I'm new and have questions (nm)

Posted by mandy555 on September 4, 2004, at 18:01:05

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by mike lynch on August 29, 2004, at 22:08:35

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 8:41:57

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge, posted by francesco on September 4, 2004, at 11:47:34

I would think the effects would be similar. MAO-A nockout mice have elevated serotonin and norepinephrine, but thats just about it.

A ser/nor reputake inhibitor would raise the two via a slightly different route but there would still be an elevated amount of neurotransmitter reaching the receptor.


Linkadge

 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge

Posted by francesco on September 5, 2004, at 14:02:07

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 8:41:57

What I'm trying to suggest is that antidepresants have also other effects, for ex. the so-called side-effects, so I doubt that your analogy is correct.

Having elevated dopamine level is not the same thing that sniffing cocaine. Your argument shows only that *if* antidepressant cause permanent damages this is not dued to the fact that they elevate NE and/or SE.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


 

Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ?

Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 19:24:28

In reply to Re: permanent damages by antidepressants ? linkadge, posted by francesco on September 5, 2004, at 14:02:07

This is generally my arguemnt. What else to antidepressants do but elevate certain monoamines. Unless you are suggesting that the molecule itself is neurotoxic. But if you want to play that game then perhaps ibuprofen is neurotoxic as well.

I am simply trying to determine weather the pharmocologic actions of a drug could cause brain dammage.

My argument is that there is proably a window of neurotransmitter activity that is harmless. Cocaine would proably exceed this window of neurotransmitter activity.

Linkadge


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