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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by paulbwell on July 14, 2004, at 3:05:11
In reply to Re: MORPHINE-AND DEVERITIVES-RULE IN DEPRESSION, posted by 1980Monroe on July 13, 2004, at 19:24:28
> Hopefully they will comeout with better things than pesty SSRI's.
>
> Anyways, my aunt actually takes hydromorphone for her extreme migraines, she's been on EVERYTHING there is on the market, even sedatives since 1991, sometimes there so bad she has to have a cocktail anastheics injected at the hostpital because she faints there soo bad. But anyways......
>
> I think Ultram is given for depression but it dont belive its an opiate narcotic, its a pain relever with antidperessant properties that effect serotonin.
>
> well, if i was a drug company, I would only allow a low potency opiate for depression to keep the abuse low, morphine is understandable i see in your point of view becuase of the well-being feeling it produces, but tolerance would climb, and the infamous abuse could easily take place.
>
> They need to bring more medications as potent as Paranate back in the game. Hopefully the SSRI's will be forgotten someday, and will have Parnate-like antidepressants back in action.
>
> Cheers,
>
> MattHi ya Matt
So your Aunt takes the infamous 'drug store heroin)(Elvises) favourite pharmy. Does she only receive a shot in the ER, in a crisis situation? or does she have a take home supply of 2, 4, 8 mg pills? to self administer?
Ultram has 1/6000 the potency of Morphine on the feel good MU opiod brain receptor, and more action on serotonin, norp, recepters. I remember trying 100mgs of it, and having a speedy , statring-up-an-ssri type feeling, not the lovely, dreamy, sedated, nothing matters, feeling of poppy juice products. Hence its big selling point-LOW ADDICTION POTENTIAL
Concerning Hydromorphine (DILAUDID)in Elvises words "i'v tried em all and its the best" and this from some who swallowed! their pills-in his case lots of pills, imagine the effects of more efficient ways of administering Hydro? mmmmmmm
PS-- tolerance to morphine doesn't always climb, many people have taken the same dose of Morphine for years- while taking an NMDA antaganast at the same time, such as Dextromethorphan in equal mgs
Cheers Matt
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 14:18:26
In reply to MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression, posted by paulbwell on July 8, 2004, at 5:27:08
Yes, opiods get me out of a funk without fail. I take them for fibro pain, but when I'm really blue, I can always depend on oxycodone or hydrocodone to lift my mood. There's no chance of addiction, cause I hate the constipation, and I just don't seem to have a jones for opiods - take 'em or leave 'em.
I have a question for Paul, or anyone who can answer it. The rectal administration - ahem, can one just put a pill up their fanny and take it that way? Or does the pill have to be specifically a rectal suppository? I like the idea of bypassing the liver. Gives me some ideas. I could see grinding up a pill and making a little suppository out of beeswax or something. I stop short of an enema! Any ideas of what the conversion would be? Less with the suppository I'd guess because it doesn't have to go through the liver passes.
Something else to consider besides the obvious endorphin hit. Opiods also have an affinity for dopamine receptors! I always feel alot more energized and focussed, especially with hydrocodone. I get a mild upper buzz, much like amphetamine. They do not make me sleepy. In fact, if I take an opiod too late in the day, I'll be up most of the night.
> Today along with my 4 mgs of daily Clonazepam, I have taken 5- 20mg morphine sulphate MSIR tablets (instant release)-administered rectally,to bypass liver breakdown for enhanced efficency, together with 4- 60mg Dihydrocodeine DHC tablets, administered the same way, and my ongoing depression has been replaced by a relaxed feeling of easy going wellbeing. No stimulation, no doppiness, just a normalisation feeling, reminesence of childhood. Suffice to say I'm elated at this, wonderfull, and all in the course of one day:)
>
> Does anyone have similar experiences?
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 14, 2004, at 23:02:12
In reply to Re: MORPHINE-AND DEVERITIVES-RULE IN DEPRESSION, posted by paulbwell on July 14, 2004, at 3:05:11
My Aunt, whew, she has to go to the hospital, she has a patch on her upper chest that anasthetics are injected, i dont know what variety of cocktails are put in there but sometimes it doesnt work becuase her vains in the back of her head look like the end of sausage dogs which causes the migranes, they look like those animal ballons tat are twisted that are made at fair's and events.
I've told her about Seconal, which is a potent barbiturate that is used to anastesia sometimes, she said she's tried it with methadone and still the pain is overbaring. I then told her about Oxycoutin, and Percocet, both failed horribly. I was shocked of all the drugs i recomended to her, Amytal, MORPHINE, my god, i almost said Heroin but i forgot it's not a medication.
One time on the lake, she got one on our boat and almost passed out, i shoved some of my old Miltown (meprobamate) down her mouth, hoping it would do something, just made her sedated with pain. Then tat the hostpital they got frustrated with me beause they had to counter act Meprobamate, to safely inject the anasthetics.
Well anyways..... they do need to use a low potency opiate maybe for depression, but really make it where it is hard to abuse, so it will have a good reputation.
Cheers
Matt
Posted by 1980Monroe on July 14, 2004, at 23:08:49
In reply to Opiod fanny packs, posted by BarbaraCat on July 14, 2004, at 14:18:26
Posted by dansopinion on July 27, 2004, at 15:00:40
I was doing a search with kewords = opiates for depression...I discovered this site as a result. I'm pasting the communication that started me off. Thanks to the guy who posted first I may find you later!!!
This I the other persons post====Today along with my 4 mgs of daily Clonazepam, I have taken 5- 20mg morphine sulphate MSIR tablets (instant release)-administered rectally,to bypass liver breakdown for enhanced efficency, together with 4- 60mg Dihydrocodeine DHC tablets, administered the same way, and my ongoing depression has been replaced by a relaxed feeling of easy going wellbeing. No stimulation, no doppiness, just a normalisation feeling, reminesence of childhood. Suffice to say I'm elated at this, wonderfull, and all in the course of one day:)
>
> Does anyone have similar experiences?My response ====I’ve struggled with Bipolar since I was 17. I am now 47 and the best treatment by far has been seroquel for mania and for the depression Methadone. The only problem with the methadone is the ever-growing need for more in order to reach the same effect. I sure wish I could get the relief from depression coupled by the bit of a buzz that opiates provide and not have to keep increasing the dose.
Also the withdrawals are horrendous! First comes lethargy then chills & nausea then for months comes increased symptoms before the body can slowly readjust.
Also the medical community is extremely reluctant to prescribe due to the stigma and the side effects. My current provider actually got pissed off when I asked for an increase in my script. Uggg!!! She knows that I use it for depression but still prescribes it for my neck pain which is also real.
Posted by dansopinion on July 27, 2004, at 15:09:27
I am posting this now as a bit of a test because I have not yet completely figured this message board stuff out.
I’ll shoot this question out into cyberspace…Does anyone know of good solid science studies that have been done on the use of opiates for depression. Please let us know also if possible please provide links to them.
Posted by J. Backer on July 29, 2004, at 15:39:14
In reply to Opiates for depression, posted by dansopinion on July 27, 2004, at 15:09:27
i think opiates/opoids would fall under the catagory of "euphoriant" rather then "anti-deppresant"
honestly i am an opiate addict, im now in NA and iv been heroin/opiate free for about 11 months. (besides one incident with 24 viconden).
i kinda have mixed feelings about the idea, i mean scince the early 19th century when bayer patented heroin everybody knew it was the ultimate in mood-elevation. opiates dont do as neer as much liver damage as drinking or benzos and the only real threats are addiction,tolerance,withdrawl and overdose. If your not using street smack and you know your opiates are controlled by the FDA through a pharmacy, the chance of accendental overdose is almost unheard of. most people can handle using opiates without fiending out and becomeing a serious junky. some people (like myself) became addicted as soon they tried them once. either way having a drug addiction is very REAL, its more depressing than anything iv faced sober.now if you really think that opiates are the answer, you need to be prepared to have them at every moment. because once you need them and you don't have them....your a million times worse then if you never did them.
as for a real idea, get a non-synthetic opiate in your system (codine/morphine/heroin) and go to a methadone clinic. iv been on it and i can say its the best opiate/opoid that could double as an anti-D. it lasts all day. but be warned you will be very addicted within a week, there is no way to avoid it once you start. but methadone is always available to addicts and you wont overdose when its given to you specifcly every morning.
peace, J
Posted by paulbwell on July 29, 2004, at 21:30:29
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by J. Backer on July 29, 2004, at 15:39:14
> i think opiates/opoids would fall under the catagory of "euphoriant" rather then "anti-deppresant"
> honestly i am an opiate addict, im now in NA and iv been heroin/opiate free for about 11 months. (besides one incident with 24 viconden).
> i kinda have mixed feelings about the idea, i mean scince the early 19th century when bayer patented heroin everybody knew it was the ultimate in mood-elevation. opiates dont do as neer as much liver damage as drinking or benzos and the only real threats are addiction,tolerance,withdrawl and overdose. If your not using street smack and you know your opiates are controlled by the FDA through a pharmacy, the chance of accendental overdose is almost unheard of. most people can handle using opiates without fiending out and becomeing a serious junky. some people (like myself) became addicted as soon they tried them once. either way having a drug addiction is very REAL, its more depressing than anything iv faced sober.
>
> now if you really think that opiates are the answer, you need to be prepared to have them at every moment. because once you need them and you don't have them....your a million times worse then if you never did them.
> as for a real idea, get a non-synthetic opiate in your system (codine/morphine/heroin) and go to a methadone clinic. iv been on it and i can say its the best opiate/opoid that could double as an anti-D. it lasts all day. but be warned you will be very addicted within a week, there is no way to avoid it once you start. but methadone is always available to addicts and you wont overdose when its given to you specifcly every morning.
> peace, JIm the guy who posted the first thread. Codeine first got me on the anti- depressant- anxiety path(thanks nurofen plus)200-3--mgs a dose the first results were serenety. no stimulation like prozac and the like. Im now on ritalin and its a short acting fast acting anti-depressant. but I hate the stimulation it sometimes gives. Im 31 and have been suffering from bipolar/depression from 17 like dansopinion. Job stabilisation is all but impossible for me. I live day to day, and with my parents. I often wish to go to sleep and not come to again, iv tried Tegretol and it caused worst depression. so its Clonazepam Ritalin and ocassional Diazepam when my Doc thinks its appropriate! like when my anxiety reaches agitation. I know Opiates can cause more probs than they are worth to some, but they have given me some very needed psychic peace at times.
is seroqual the answer? side effects?
opiates? advice please,Thanks
Posted by J. Backer on July 30, 2004, at 14:33:43
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » J. Backer, posted by paulbwell on July 29, 2004, at 21:30:29
man paulbwell, seems like your in a heavy situation. i,ve never been bi-polar but i am diagnosed with Chronic Major Deppresion, SAD, GAD, PPD and ADD-I. So i couldnt truly understand how uppers and downers effect someone with it. although, i was on ritalin and adderal for years and they did help me alot but they made my mood considerably less stable. even though im....well, much cleaner then i used to be. I always avoid strait downers (klonopin/xanax/ativan/valume..alcohol) because they also screwed my stability up, even more so then stimulants. and i know im a fairly stable person, mood wise, off drugs. so i can only guess how much they could mess someones mood that is bi-polar. if i were in your situation, i would really try my hardest to do whatever i could before opting to become an opiates addict especially becuse i know first hand how horrible it becomes.
have you given mood-stabalizers a shot? how about wellbutrin?
mabey a combo..moodstabalizer+Anti-deppresant
and i know we have all heard this before, or at least i have and at the time it pissed me off. but drugs arnt really going to make you completely happy. (exception: opiates, although its VERY temparary) you got to be cool inside and its a complete bitch to make that happen when your deppresed. thats why after you get the med situation checked out.....u know whats up
then you could clean-up your diet?
skateboard.....(or any excersize, but i skateboard)
and meditate (i meditate in a taoist method, you have to do it right or your better off watching tv...heh heh)anyway good luck bro, and dont do heroin to fix your problems i did that for years and in the end, it only made me more incomplete and unhappy.
peace, J
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 30, 2004, at 15:18:08
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by J. Backer on July 29, 2004, at 15:39:14
Hi,
Your message really made me think about addiction. I have ready access to oxycodone because of fibromyalgia pain. 2.5mg consistently affects me and 5mg is about all I need for a day. Sometimes I feel serene, othertimes activated, othertimes just dopey. Too much and I feel jaggy and wired and weird, which is opposite of what the going rap is on 'euphoric opiods'. They make me speedy and I can clean house like a demon! I don't understand this paradoxical effect thing.If someone said I could never have another pill I'd have a moment of 'acckk!' but not for long. Days go by and I don't think about taking one. Now, this is a bit different from my few experiences with smoking opium. THAT was a euphoric high and one that I just might be a tad too drawn to if were readily available.
I wonder about why someone, such as yourself, gets hooked immediately. Why do you think that happens to you? I had a jones with meth about 30 years ago. Now that was a substance that had a hold on me because I felt so awful when it wore off. Something about my chemistry craved whatever meth gave me, which makes me consider where I might be shortchanged biochemically, as in dopamine. What do you think it is with you? Something that one person can take or leave, although it's definitely an enjoyment, is something that grabs ahold of you? If you don't mind answering, what does an opiod addiction feel like? Thanks. Barbara
> i think opiates/opoids would fall under the catagory of "euphoriant" rather then "anti-deppresant"
> honestly i am an opiate addict, im now in NA and iv been heroin/opiate free for about 11 months. (besides one incident with 24 viconden).
> i kinda have mixed feelings about the idea, i mean scince the early 19th century when bayer patented heroin everybody knew it was the ultimate in mood-elevation. opiates dont do as neer as much liver damage as drinking or benzos and the only real threats are addiction,tolerance,withdrawl and overdose. If your not using street smack and you know your opiates are controlled by the FDA through a pharmacy, the chance of accendental overdose is almost unheard of. most people can handle using opiates without fiending out and becomeing a serious junky. some people (like myself) became addicted as soon they tried them once. either way having a drug addiction is very REAL, its more depressing than anything iv faced sober.
>
> now if you really think that opiates are the answer, you need to be prepared to have them at every moment. because once you need them and you don't have them....your a million times worse then if you never did them.
> as for a real idea, get a non-synthetic opiate in your system (codine/morphine/heroin) and go to a methadone clinic. iv been on it and i can say its the best opiate/opoid that could double as an anti-D. it lasts all day. but be warned you will be very addicted within a week, there is no way to avoid it once you start. but methadone is always available to addicts and you wont overdose when its given to you specifcly every morning.
> peace, J
Posted by carriejane on August 1, 2004, at 6:17:57
In reply to Re: MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression, posted by thinkfast on July 9, 2004, at 5:24:26
i used heroin to cure my depression only to end up homeless and going to rehab. I admit the feeling it gave me was the best in my life but i grew a tolerance to it and needed more and more. You know what that means! Loads of crime lol.
Posted by chess on August 1, 2004, at 10:15:30
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by chess on July 31, 2004, at 23:46:24
Somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't alcohol effect gaba and mu-opoid receptors in the brain, and the gaba part makes you feel relaxed, while the mu-opoid part makes you feel good because mu-opoid receptors cause the release of dopamine. So then would Wellbutrin (which is a dopamine re-uptake inhibitor) give the same kind of "well-being" effect like Vicodin would because they both cause the availability of more dopamine in the brain?
Posted by pablo1 on August 1, 2004, at 15:55:34
In reply to MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression, posted by paulbwell on July 8, 2004, at 5:27:08
A few thoughts on the topic...
Couldn't an opiate like that have the proper antidepressant effect in low doses if prescribed or does it just not work unless you get to the massive euphoria of shooting up? I can't imagine taking such strong drugs like that anyways... I had some pill in the hospital once after appendicitis surgery and was so dizzy and felt I was going to float out of my body and was pretty scared.
Something similar I was reading about is Xyrem (GHB) which if you don't binge is supposed to have a therapeutic effect in doses that *do* get you high but only for a few hours and not the sort of heavenly euphoria of heroine (some people don't even like it). Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to get now and the addiction is quite awful. But it sounds wonderful used in moderation long term with no ill effects. It could concievably be prescribed off label but not damn likely. It is a GABA enhancer that also effects dopamine.
Another thought is those Holosync meditation tapes which sound awfully gimmicky but I know people who swear by them. Supposed to use special frequencies to stimulate the brain (kinda like some other electric stimulation devices) to control brain waves like if you practiced brain wave biofeedback. Supposed to decrease cortisol & increase endorphins (they say it actually does in studies) which gives that shield of protection against pain like childhood as described. Endorphins are what give you runner's high (if you had the energy to exercise). Certainly there's the effect of forced meditation & relaxation also. And it's bundled with a CB Therapy approach as well.
Well anyways the common thread there is none of these makes you feel like crap as the SSRI's & others can do.
Of the above options, heroine perhaps has the least lasting effect. The appeal of the Xyrem is it's supposed to make depression evaporate and have some impact later as well.. and useful for releasing emotions in therapy like the tapes. SSRI's also I think can work this way and have a lasting impact allowing you to feel strong enough to move forward in life. I get the impression heroine is really not useful that way unless it was only once to remind you that it is possible to feel good when you had forgot.
Posted by carriejane on August 2, 2004, at 9:10:34
In reply to MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression » paulbwell, posted by pablo1 on August 1, 2004, at 15:55:34
I think the only good thing about heroin at the time was, that it made me apathetic, and numb. But the drug is a lie, it gives you a false reality. We have to feel some pain after all, we are human.
Posted by pablo1 on August 2, 2004, at 12:22:13
In reply to MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression » paulbwell, posted by pablo1 on August 1, 2004, at 15:55:34
Here's a page about the xyrem used in conjunction with therapy http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/ghb_02.htm
as a more detailed explanation of what I'm talking about there.
Posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 19:44:50
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » J. Backer, posted by paulbwell on July 29, 2004, at 21:30:29
> Im the guy who posted the first thread. Codeine first got me on the anti- depressant- anxiety path(thanks nurofen plus)200-3--mgs a dose the first results were serenety. no stimulation like prozac and the like. Im now on ritalin and its a short acting fast acting anti-depressant. but I hate the stimulation it sometimes gives. Im 31 and have been suffering from bipolar/depression from 17 like dansopinion. Job stabilisation is all but impossible for me. I live day to day, and with my parents. I often wish to go to sleep and not come to again, iv tried Tegretol and it caused worst depression. so its Clonazepam Ritalin and ocassional Diazepam when my Doc thinks its appropriate! like when my anxiety reaches agitation. I know Opiates can cause more probs than they are worth to some, but they have given me some very needed psychic peace at times.
> is seroqual the answer? side effects?
> opiates? advice please,
>
> ThanksMy psychiatrists have ultimately prescribed me hydrocodone (the opiate in Vicodin) and even a trial on Fentenyl for depression when all else has failed. Takes a gutsy psychdoc to do this however and it was at a teaching clinic at a Big Ten university.
Seroquel effects many dopamine receptors and sub receptors - but I think it has more of a blunting effect on emotions - somewhat numbing - and it's VERY sedating.
Opiates don't get me high or euphoric, they just get me back to "normal."
Some pdocs will tell you benzos and stimulants are the anit-christ - while others will use them for what they were made to do.
I have researched meds and my own depression for 12 years (I'm 32 now) and have figured out that my dopamine system (very general term I know) is out of whack. Hydrocodone and other opiates are very well tied into the dopaminergic system.
Hope this helps
Jerry
Posted by chess on August 2, 2004, at 22:28:22
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » paulbwell, posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 19:44:50
jerrympls,
I'm interested if you have ever tried Wellbutrin?
It is a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and thus allows for more dopamine to be present in the brain.I'm thinking of trying it myself but I would like to know how it worked for somebody else who like me is helped by hydrocodone for depression.
Posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 23:25:44
In reply to jerrympls: Re: Opiates for depression » jerrympls, posted by chess on August 2, 2004, at 22:28:22
> jerrympls,
>
> I'm interested if you have ever tried Wellbutrin?
> It is a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and thus allows for more dopamine to be present in the brain.
>
> I'm thinking of trying it myself but I would like to know how it worked for somebody else who like me is helped by hydrocodone for depression.
>
>Wellbutrin I have tried many times - too much akathasia, anxiety and severe insomnia.
Posted by chess on August 3, 2004, at 5:52:15
In reply to Re: jerrympls: Re: Opiates for depression » chess, posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 23:25:44
Did you get any benefit from the extra dopamine in regards to your mood in spite of the akathasia and anxiety and insomnia?
I'm currently taking Klonopin which might help with the akathasia-anxiety-insomnia.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 3, 2004, at 12:02:19
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » paulbwell, posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 19:44:50
> I have researched meds and my own depression for 12 years (I'm 32 now) and have figured out that my dopamine system (very general term I know) is out of whack. Hydrocodone and other opiates are very well tied into the dopaminergic system.
>
**Hi Jerry, if you have anything pertinent to opiods and dopamine, let me know. Otherwise, I'll just do a google search. I've often felt there was a dopamine tie-in because of the activation I experience from Vicodin especially (not so much oxycodone). I too felt akathasia, anxiety with Wellbutrin so perhaps another dopamine pathway is getting hit. Also, the euphoric effects of opiods may smooth out the jittery primarily dopamine meds. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 3, 2004, at 12:27:37
In reply to MORPHINE- and derivitives for depression » paulbwell, posted by pablo1 on August 1, 2004, at 15:55:34
I have used both GHB and the Holosync tapes and would like to share my experiences.
GHB primarily made me sleepy. It did not have the touted euphoric effects whatsoever. It was, however, a very good sleeper. I can't imagine doing anything BUT sleeping on it. It's supposed to increase human growth hormone as well, which is a good thing. I got it from a few different sources, so the lack of the touted effects were not due to a bum batch. I found no problem whatsoever getting off it when my supply ran out, right about the time it became a federal crime to own it.
The exhorbitant price the pharm companies are getting from the GHB analog is preposterous. Before it was placed in class 1 or 2 drug status, it was ridiculously easy to get the chemical compounds to make it yourself (I never did, but know of folks who did). But this is not the case any longer. I did not notice any antidepressant effect at all. This might just be my chemistry, but I was fairly underwhelmed after all the hype I'd read.
Holosync: I did not like it at all. The theory is based on Nobel prize winner Ilya Prirogine's chaos structure theory in that systems will undergo a disorganizing chaotic dissonance before settling into a coherent pattern. This is fine in theory, but I found that the unsettling disorganizing principle in these tapes/CDs never resolved into anything but anxiety. I liked the very first in the series, but afterwards, despite the babbling brook and windchimes, there's something going on in the background that felt like nails on a blackboard.
A few friends went through the whole program and found it beneficial, however. The cost is exhorbitant. I get much more benefit from my good old mantra meditation which leaves me feeling centered and peaceful. I also practice a Buddhist mindfullness meditation at times when I need extra focus. My life works so much better when I keep a regular meditation practice. I don't think there are any shortcuts to this state, no high-tech methods are going to get you there any quicker, no matter what they say. But you don't really need a shortcut. The benefits become apparent pretty quickly without any special gear. That's the beauty of it. Whatever practice you decide upon (preferably low-tech), the secret is to just sit yourself down every day and do it. - Barbara
Posted by J. Backer on August 3, 2004, at 13:15:19
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » paulbwell, posted by jerrympls on August 2, 2004, at 19:44:50
> My psychiatrists have ultimately prescribed me hydrocodone (the opiate in Vicodin) and even a trial on Fentenyl for depression when all else has failed. Takes a gutsy psychdoc to do this however and it was at a teaching clinic at a Big Ten university.
>
> Seroquel effects many dopamine receptors and sub receptors - but I think it has more of a blunting effect on emotions - somewhat numbing - and it's VERY sedating.
>
> Opiates don't get me high or euphoric, they just get me back to "normal."
>
> Some pdocs will tell you benzos and stimulants are the anit-christ - while others will use them for what they were made to do.
>
> I have researched meds and my own depression for 12 years (I'm 32 now) and have figured out that my dopamine system (very general term I know) is out of whack. Hydrocodone and other opiates are very well tied into the dopaminergic system.
>
> Hope this helps
> Jerry
>
...benzos and stimulants are fine, i think there is alot of people who might benifit from using them but are turned away by misinformed psychiatrists. most people on these forums are on the same page about the issue. As am I also.the way opiates effect your dopamine system are drasticly diffrent than other medications. where as amphetimines release your dopamine reserves and dump them into the synaps (please excuse speling) opiates fit into the dopamine receptors better then the dopamine inself. there for your brain stops making ints own dopamine, not to metion the effect opiates have on endorphine system.
the point im trying to make is that if i have a 50% effective dopamine system and i need X amount of opiates to make it 100% eventually my own system will become far worse than it started and i will need more than X to reach this 100%.the addiction is completely diffrent than in benzodiazaphines, where one could just take the same amount consistantly and not always feel the need to up the anti. esspecially if they are taking them for anxiety. The nature of Deppresion it self is treated diffrently than anxiety so it could be possible that someones conseption of this sort of "treatment" has a paralell to somebody taking benzodiazaphines regularly, which is certantly not the case.
a "whacked-out" dopamine system isnt something that comes in waves and niether is a misconcived notion that one needs opiates to become normal.
that is a sign of being medically dependant and if you are a sufferer of chronic physical pain especially with a terminal illness it is quite understandable. You shouldnt be prescribed to opiates bro, there is no nice way of putting it, and i CANT/WONT side step that fact. i know you must already be fumming (unless you had just recently taken your "medicine") and i want you to know i am not trying to make you angry, i am honestly concerned. I TOO am an opiates addict, and i have thought the same thought and ALLOWED myself to use HYDROCODONE for my deppresion because i TOO have a "whacked-out" dopamine system. im going to stop messing around, you are rationalizing your use of hydrocodone. YOU ARE NOT IN PAIN, you just belive you are. That feeling of "normalness" is a very standard reaction. That almost childlike contentment that is described as "normal" is the high and if you take more of a stronger opiate you will feel even higher, thats just how opaites work. i TOO took them to be "normal" but the true state of normalness is the state a person is in before he/she ever tries opiates and to get back there once they are dependant is very difficult.
weather or not you are a drug addict i cannot answer, but i do know the signs of being medically dependant, opiate use/abuse and denialgood luck
peace J
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 3, 2004, at 13:29:03
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by J. Backer on August 3, 2004, at 13:15:19
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. I occassionally take oxycodone and sometimes hydrocodone for fibromyalgia pain. Sometimes the drugs will lift a depression, sometimes not. Sometimes the drugs will help the fibro pain but not always. What I do notice is that after a few days of taking the opiate after a flare-up, my fibro pain will be worse, even though the other symtpoms (fatigue, headache, anxiety) are lessened. I've wondered about opiates interferring with the body's own natural production and stores of morphine like compounds, making pain perception more sensitive after stopping.
I also wonder what happens to the addictive tendency when opiods are taken for pain vs. pleasure. I have never had a problem taking them/not taking them and have never suffered any withdrawals, no cravings at all. But I can't take high doses, just don't want to, so maybe this has something to do with it. I cannot say the same for Chardonnay, whereby just a teensy bit sets me up for a major jones. Anyhow, the nature of addiction is curious.
Posted by paulbwell on August 3, 2004, at 18:52:03
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » J. Backer, posted by BarbaraCat on August 3, 2004, at 13:29:03
> I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. I occassionally take oxycodone and sometimes hydrocodone for fibromyalgia pain. Sometimes the drugs will lift a depression, sometimes not. Sometimes the drugs will help the fibro pain but not always. What I do notice is that after a few days of taking the opiate after a flare-up, my fibro pain will be worse, even though the other symtpoms (fatigue, headache, anxiety) are lessened. I've wondered about opiates interferring with the body's own natural production and stores of morphine like compounds, making pain perception more sensitive after stopping.
>
> I also wonder what happens to the addictive tendency when opiods are taken for pain vs. pleasure. I have never had a problem taking them/not taking them and have never suffered any withdrawals, no cravings at all. But I can't take high doses, just don't want to, so maybe this has something to do with it. I cannot say the same for Chardonnay, whereby just a teensy bit sets me up for a major jones. Anyhow, the nature of addiction is curious.Curious indeed!,
I cant stand booze, however a belly of Codeine and some valium does it for me. It takes away the constant cold i feel, gives comfort, like im ok right now like feeling. I have ready access to Codeine, but not to stronger ones like Hydro or Oxy which (seem to be videly used in the US,) in my country.
Posted by jerrympls on August 3, 2004, at 22:14:29
In reply to Re: jerrympls: Re: Opiates for depression » jerrympls, posted by chess on August 3, 2004, at 5:52:15
> Did you get any benefit from the extra dopamine in regards to your mood in spite of the akathasia and anxiety and insomnia?
>
> I'm currently taking Klonopin which might help with the akathasia-anxiety-insomnia.
>
>
>...you mean while taking Wellbutrin? I remember taking Darvocet/Darvon (propoxyphene - sp?) while on Wellbutrin and it helped VERY MUCH to calm me and help me sleep.
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