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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 6:11:16
This is totally weirding me out. Due to crazy (no pun intended) circumstances, I've lost my script for Effexor xr (300mg) and Celexa (20mg) and I've been off of it for 48h.
I'm off to the walk-in clinic to get a replacement script today but you know what? I feel fine. I've had weird nightmares last night but nothing terrible ... the little cold-like symptoms yesterday but aside from that ... nothing?!?!
Is is because its not been long enough? I mean I remember going accidentally cold turkey from 75mg and it was hell after a few hours past my dose time ... so the fact that I feel relatively fine after 2 days is totally weirding me out.
Is it possible that I've been so "drugged up" on the stuff that I actually feel "better" off of it? I'm not sure if thats what people refer to when they mention "brain shivers" but on it, I always get dizzy when I turn my head ... but I got used to it ... and well, those have actually diminished in teh past two days.
Really weird.
I'm off till Wednesday so for the sake of my morbid curiosity, I'm still going to get the meds but I'm not going to take them unless I really feel the need to. For the sake of my morbid curiosity I guess.... and who knows, the knowledge might be usefull to some.
Wish me luck
Posted by Buckeye Fan on July 19, 2004, at 8:40:28
In reply to 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 6:11:16
Great news!
Glad your "withdrawl" is either, mild, not existant..or delayed. Our minds are SO powerful...
perhaps because you did not conciously decide to "stop" cold-turkey...you did not concentrate on the withdrawl.
Or maybe 48 hrs is not long enough...I know others have posted that they can "tell" after one missed dose...I however am more like you it seems,
48-72 hours can pass before I really noticed that Effexor XR was missing from my system ( I have a very FAST metabolism...so this is a bit unsusal) but it could explain why you didnt feel the withdrawl so noticebly, eFFEXOR XR is supposed to be "extended release" therefore it has a more gradual entry into your system.The dizziness you mention are the "brain shivers" that we have all experienced..and turning your head quickly is the most common way to experience this
Please keep us posted between now and Wed...and good luck!~
Buckeye Fan
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 9:33:35
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Buckeye Fan on July 19, 2004, at 8:40:28
Well, I'm back from the clinic and I have my meds but aside from the dizzy feeling I feel fine even a bit hyper and happy ... and I haven't even had my second coffee yet.
Go figure ... it would be the first time I end up with wacky side effects. Seroquel made me lose weight at an alarming rate ... and so did Effexor though at at slower rate, zyprexa gave me seizures ... so I'm sort of expecting the far-out weird SEs.
You'd think that the withdrawal from 300 would be worse that that from 75 ... I mean I can "feel" when I've missed a dose and what not ...but perhaps it was because I was expecting total hell that this just seems well .. so mild.
Being on Zyprexa made me 10 times more dizzy than I am right now ... so maybe thats what makes it feel so "tolerable". I guess I'll know for sure tomorrow ... by then it will have been 3 full days without it.
But if it doesn't get any worse than this, I can definately live with it ... heck ... I could probably even work like this ... who knows, maybe for some people, going off cold turkey is better than tampering off.
Posted by pablo1 on July 19, 2004, at 10:53:34
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 9:33:35
> aside from the dizzy feeling I feel fine even a bit hyper and happy ... and I haven't even had my second coffee yet.
That sounds like my reaction. I started having dreams again, felt energetic and euphoric coming off 75mg effexor for 7 weeks. After a couple days I started getting brain shivers which to me is more like mini thrill sensations, although a bit weird but not that unpleasant really.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 17:50:56
In reply to 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by pablo1 on July 19, 2004, at 10:53:34
> > aside from the dizzy feeling I feel fine even a bit hyper and happy ... and I haven't even had my second coffee yet.
>
>
> That sounds like my reaction. I started having dreams again, felt energetic and euphoric coming off 75mg effexor for 7 weeks. After a couple days I started getting brain shivers which to me is more like mini thrill sensations, although a bit weird but not that unpleasant really.
Who knows, maybe for some people the whole tampering off is not the best of solutions ... go figure ..
Posted by linkadge on July 19, 2004, at 18:30:10
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 17:50:56
Watch your mood carefully. Oftentimes abrupt withdrawl from serotogenic agents can cause a rebound rush of dopamine (which makes you feel very confident and assertive) This can wear off.
Just be cautious
Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 19:40:54
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 17:50:56
The Celexa in your system is probably preventing the bad side effects of withdrawal since it is a much longer acting serotonergic. It's the same as people taking Prozac in order to dampen the withdrawal effect.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 23:32:55
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 19:40:54
Hmmm... good point. I hadn't thought of that ... I'll go try and see what the half life is for Celexa
Posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 23:48:04
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by Camille Dumont on July 19, 2004, at 23:32:55
> Hmmm... good point. I hadn't thought of that ... I'll go try and see what the half life is for Celexa
I just looked on Scott's (SLS's) chart and it has Effexor at 5-7 hours, Celexa at 35 hours (1.5 days) and Prozac at 5-7 days. So Celexa wouldn't provide as much help as Prozac in preventing or delaying symptoms but it should provide some help esp. in the first three days.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 20, 2004, at 17:05:43
In reply to Re: 48h off effexor xr cold turkey and i feel fine?!?!, posted by KaraS on July 19, 2004, at 23:48:04
Well, had a little panick attack type thing in a store today. I felt like I was either going to puke right then and now or faint ... so I ran out of the store and I was all dizzy and lost but it turned out I was just majorly hungry ... a close to fainting type of hungry.
I think that the withdrawal is sort of numbing me from myself... kind of hard to explain. I tend to spill things and drop things and hurt myself (unintentionally) on things because I only realise that they are there once they're imbeded in my skin. Kind of annoying.
It sort of feels like being drunk .. all day ... but you don't feel happy about it.
I feel that my willpower is being tested somewhat more but I mean ... my determination to break free of effexor is still stronger than that.
And when the willpower runs short, I feed it with the anger. Anger that I wasn't told how horrible the addiction would be. Anger that I wans't told I could be stuck on this all my life ... and definately anger at my doctor in general. For giving me 4x the normal starting dose of antipsychotics ... to supposedly "help the insomnia" ... ya thanks doc ... thanks very much ... especially for not warning me ... especially for not telling me NOT to drive. That would have been nice ... you know since it gave me absence seizures every hour or so ... good thing I don't own a car beceause I would probably have killed myself or someone else when I blacked out.
This is also something I notice ... anger. Its like it is re-emerging from wherever it was hiding before. Libido is also saying hello. Thats a nice one ... after two years and what not ... its about freaking time.
I guess I'm sort of starting to "feel" things more intensely and what not.
Its good to know about the Celexa though ... if it gets too rough I'll probably just pop a 20mg Celexa (my normal daily dose) instead of popping the Effexor.
I just with I knew how long this will take to either reach the "full force withdrawal" so I have an idea of when I can start thinking that I might win this and what not.
But so far so good, I'm stronger than you mister Effexor ... nyah nyah nyah nyah nyahhhh! :P
I will most likely keep updating this post. Wether I win or not ... who knows, other people might benefit from the information.
Posted by linkadge on July 20, 2004, at 18:38:40
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by Camille Dumont on July 20, 2004, at 17:05:43
Dude, you can't see this as an all or nothing thing. You were on 300mg of Effexor and 20mg of Celexa. It is extremely unusual to stop taking this and feel no emotional withdrawl. You may need to go back on some and then taper of slowly.
This is no test of will power. You would not tell a diabetic that he needed to strengthen his willpower and stop taking insulin.
Linkadge
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 8:17:38
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by linkadge on July 20, 2004, at 18:38:40
> Dude, you can't see this as an all or nothing thing. You were on 300mg of Effexor and 20mg of Celexa. It is extremely unusual to stop taking this and feel no emotional withdrawl. You may need to go back on some and then taper of slowly.
>
> This is no test of will power. You would not tell a diabetic that he needed to strengthen his willpower and stop taking insulin.
>
>
> LinkadgeTrue and not true at the same time. Yes its unusual to stop them at the same time and not tamper off ... but I do disagree on the "its like diabetes" comparison.
Its not as if I "don't" produce serotonin ... its not as if my brain is not equipped to be "ok" on its own ... if you take a diabetic and tie him up on a bed for two weeks, he will most likely fall into a diabetic coma and die. Tie a depressed person on a bed (sorry of the crummy methaphor but its the only was I can explain it) and no, I will not die ... I'll feel like shit, I'll feel suicidal, maybe I'll hallucinate and go majorly bonkers but I will not die. I guess there is always the freaky biological side effects tha might make you really physically sick but its not the same.
In fact, just as I hate it when people say to depressed people "snap out of it" and "get a grip" I also loathe it when doctors get into the whole "its like being diabetic ... you'll need those pills for the rest of your life" sort of thing because they're just basing that assumption on statistics (i.e. the probability of depression comming back and eventually suicidal attemps and what not). But statistics are not certainties ... they are PROBABILITIES. 99% might agree with the outcome predicted by the probabilities ... but there is no 100% certainty ... thus making a unilateral statement based on a probability is totally erronous in my view. Maybe my economist background has a lot to do with my nitpicking at this sort of thing.
If I felt depressed for 6 months, then was ok for 4 years and then depressed again for another six months then I'm sorry but NO I do not NEED those medications for the REST OF MY LIFE ... I might need them for part of it ... for when my defenses and barriers become too weaks ... like one may need an energy booster now and then but I cannot and definately will not give in to the whole "life sentence" train of thought. Perhaps its ok for some people ... and in fact since there are many "types" of depression, maybe some people need antidepressants for the rest of their lives ... but not me ... at least this is how I feel about it.
Maybe you're right, maybe its not a test of willpower ... maybe its a test of myself vs. myself ... of my strubornness ... of me wanting to pull all my guts and my resources and my strength towards this one simple goal : be free of the chemical crutches I'm on right now. This is not a judgement of whether they are good or bad but rather something very deep within me that has always pushed me towards wanting to be "in control" ... to be responsible for what happens to me, for my successes as well as for my failures ... only then do I find meaning and perhaps the only way I will find the will to live.
Right now on the meds, I just exist ... I go on because they numb the pain and the joy at the same time. I go on for my pets, because the depend on my ... but after two years I'm no closer to finding a reason to live ... and it seems to me that, in my search, the medical path has served its purpose. I did the whole drug cocktail approach ... it stabilizes me ... but gets me nowhere but this drugged up limbo. I've done all the psychiatric evaluations, psychometric tests, psychotherapy, etc ... and well, I haven't found my answers yet.
I do very well realize that what I'm doing is not the recommended way to do it .. but I also know myself. I'm not a marathon runner, I'm more of the 100 meter type. I can endure total utter crap to very high levels ... I can hang on even when I feel like I'm so sick I'm about to die. But I also knwo my one weakness : it doesn't last. I'd rather go the very much painfull way if it means a shorter trip. I'd rather feel like utter hell ... shaking and sweating and crying in bed for 2 weeks straight than to feel "somewhat bad" for 4 months because I know I'll most likely give up.
To each his own path I guess.
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2004, at 9:30:51
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 8:17:38
Statistics show that the stortest trip to getting better from depression is to take your medication. If these medications are making you feel like crap then try different ones.
Recent research suggests that something like 10 percent of the population has inherited a short version of a allele that codes for serotonin reputake. Basically this means that almost 10% of the population has a three fold higher reputake for serotonin. Meaning they have 3 times less serotonin than the other 90% of the population.
If you have inherited this gene than it will be with you the rest of your life. If this was the case, than you could go the rest of your life and try will your brain into being happier without doing a single thing.
What I am trying to say is that the depression is telling you "You're making this all up" - "you're just a lazy person who doesn't want to work hard" - "you're a wimp and cannot withstand pain"
etc. etc. etc.
Taking a pill takes all of 2 seconds. What you really need to ask yourself is - am I a better person when I take this medication? Can I give more to the world when I feel my best ?Linkadge
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 10:04:35
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by linkadge on July 21, 2004, at 9:30:51
"Statistics show that the stortest trip to getting better from depression is to take your medication."
It is not THE shortest trip it is MOST LIKELY the shortest trip ... this is what I mean whey I say that statistics are NOT certainties ... they are PROBABILITIES ... therefore, no matter how high the probability, it is never certain ... you could be the within hte 0.01% exception ... so although the "risk-neutral" and even "risk-averse" strategy would be to go with what the statistics tell you ... it is not the only way ... and by no means a foolproof strategy.
Agreed I'm sure some people will need the meds for the rest of their lives and if they are ok with it, than its great.
"If you have inherited this gene than it will be with you the rest of your life"
Here is an interesting and somewhat related question ... how much do our genes change over time ... I mean, I'm no expert but here is what I wonder about : say you were born from average weight parents but throughout adulthood and before having kids you overeat like heck and become obese, from what I understand you children will be more prone to obesity ... lifestyle aside, doesn't that mean that your genes modify themselves as time goes by? How maleable are they? (a good example of this were those cloned kittens who ended up a totally different color than the cat they were cloned from) Mabye a biologist on the board can asnwer that.
"Taking a pill takes all of 2 seconds."
True but thats not the only cost of the medication ... libido absence and potential liver damage and so on. Sure in most case those are insignificant when compare with say, suicide risks and such ... but it is not an inconsequential choice.
"What you really need to ask yourself is - am I a better person when I take this medication? Can I give more to the world when I feel my best ?"
Here we diverge ... being an economist I'm a total social fatalist in that I believe that humans are, at the core, selfish organisms because otherwise, they would not have survived. Altruism is,in my opinion, the way we disguise moral selfishness because at the base we do it because the love from others make us feel good ... not because we genuinely want to make others feel better ... I know I'll most likely get flamed for saying this ... but bear with me ... as I said I'm an economist ... we're a weird breed I think.
So anyway, the whole " am I a better person" and "what I give to the world" is rather beyond my considerations when it comes to my life. I live for my very own selfish little pleasure ... that doesn't mean I don't care about other peoples needs because if I infringe on theirs needs and liberties ... obviously ... the consequence will come back and smack me in the face, influencing my own well being.
I want do live if it feels good TO ME to do so. I want to live if I FEEL GOOD. Perhaps my need to get rid of the meds IS an illusion or delusion ... perhaps it is a figment of my demented mind ... but if it makes me feel better (perhaps in a slightly masochistic way ... given the withdrawal and SE) ... than who care? Does it really matter if what you base your happyness on is "true" or "real" or "the right reason"?
But this is more of a philosophical question I guess ...
As I write this, I must admit, the little paranoid side of myself wonders wether I'm still making sense ... am I slowly slipping into a sort of drug-withdrawal mania of sorts ... which would explain why your posts sound a bit "alien" to me. I'm not bipolar so I don't know what mania feels like ... but I do feel a bit strange. So if I sound totally bonkers, please feel free to say so, I might need the reality check.
Aside from that ... still alive. A bit dizzy but nothing too untolerable ... I'm managing to work at a decent pace. A funky side effect I've noticed : food cravings. Now I'm a total coffee addict ... well I woke up this morning with the utter total insanely strong urge to drink : salted V8?!?!?!? (veggie cocktail for those who don't know). I get these weird "salty stuff" cravings. I am or now I think "used to be" a sugar addict ... I could eat tons of sugary stuff ... in fact I sort of needed the rush. But now I find myself disgusted by it. I wake up and want to eat eggs rather than toast with jam ... I feel like eating spaghetti istead of cereal. Really strange.
Posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 11:23:21
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 10:04:35
Hi:
Since you've been on 'Two' SSRIs, Effexor and Celexa, the latter might have 'killed' the former, Effexor.I have a very similar experience, ... not ADs, but 'mood-stabilizers.' About one and a half year, I was just on Depakote, 750 mg. - 1250 mg. depending on my 'mood-swings.' However, after 'New' introduction Lithium due to 'mood-swings,' practically the Litium started to 'over-power' Depakote, like saying 'I'm a boss,' ... 'get out here'to the Depakote's existence. Then, I was just on Lithium after awhile. However, a month or two on Lithium alone, my mood-swings started to deteriorate. Due to 'urgency,' I switched a more competent pdoc., current one, and he rxed more potent med., 'Zyprexa.' Zyprexa made me 'Wonder' on my condition.
However, my expereicne is purely Bp, Mood-Stabilizers, then I can hardly tell that your case might have some similarity to the experience I had in the past.In my personal suggestion/opinion, just 'watch out' your moods/depression every day more carefully. If you need just one AD, 'Celexa,' then I guess that is 'GREAT.'
H.G.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 11:32:43
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 11:23:21
"Due to 'urgency,' I switched a more competent pdoc."
Somehow, I found that statement very amusing ... sorry doc, no time to deal with your incompetence this time... ciao!
Its an interesting thing ... one medication overpowering the other ... I hadn't seen it that way. Kind of cute in a way ... the tiny Celexa 20mg kicking the ass of the huge Effexor 300mg.
Posted by linkadge on July 21, 2004, at 11:48:46
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 11:23:21
This is really not my battle it's yours.
Effexor and Celexa have low incidence of liver dammage. Plus a routine liver check is simple.
If you don't want to take them then don't! But it is pretty clear to me that your mood has deteriorated since you abruptly stopped.
Linkadge
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 12:09:21
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by linkadge on July 21, 2004, at 11:48:46
> This is really not my battle it's yours.
>
> Effexor and Celexa have low incidence of liver dammage. Plus a routine liver check is simple.
>
> If you don't want to take them then don't! But it is pretty clear to me that your mood has deteriorated since you abruptly stopped.
>
>
> LinkadgeDefinately .. though I am hoping that in time it will become better ... just as I felt crappy when I started the meds.
Posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 16:07:10
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by Camille Dumont on July 21, 2004, at 11:32:43
Hi:
Yes, ... it's so amazing.
In my case, Lithium 300mg. - 600 mg. overpowered and knocked out Depakote 750 mg. - 1,250 mg. very badly.
Then, I read somewhere Internet; ... sometime, not always tho', the 'DOSAGE' of the med. does not matter. Rather, newly one gives a 'shock' wave inside your brain, that causing 'cancel out' the older one. It might be 'fresh/new' and 'spanky' one becomes always 'winner,' ... sad to say.
H.G.
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 22, 2004, at 9:49:26
In reply to Re: 80h ... still alive, posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 16:07:10
Well, the headache was just too much this morning. Called in sick. Hopefully just a temporary stuff.
The hunger pangs are ever-increasing and my ability to actually hold in food ever-decreasing.
At least I'm not too worried about re-gaining the weight that teh ADs made me lose.
Still dizzy ... but the headaches are what's worse. Going to work yesterday, in addition to the bloody heat was more taxing that I anticipated. Still hanging in though. Hopefully a ridiculously large amount of sleep will give me what I need to survive tomorrow.
Set back a bit but hanging on ... I definately haven't come this far to be bullied but a simple migrane.
Slightly afraid that I might be slipping in and out of slight mania episodes ... where I write ridiculously long emails ... more like rants and what not ... But off to my boyfriend's place tomorrow night so I'll have someone I can rely on to tell me if I'm not making sense anymore.
Posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 13:45:48
In reply to Past 100h ... still alive but feeling like crap, posted by Camille Dumont on July 22, 2004, at 9:49:26
Hi Camille,
Your posts have made a lot of sense to me and I understand about the costs of medicating vs the costs of not medicating - and also the desire to be fine on your own. I too have the same desire and take 3 different drugs which pisses me off because it's too much money and I feel like I can't really enjoy the things I used to quite as much - like having drinks with friends without feeling backlash for the next two days. I have a friend who came off of several drugs and it was hell, but then she readjusted her meds and is doing really well, but her situation is such that she can't go without meds.I also wonder about the maleability of our genes, which would totally make sense given evolution and the need to adapt to the pace of our society. I also wonder if our depressions and problems are linked to our crazy paced lifestyle and the fact that we don't get enough rest and have to work so hard to survive, not to mention the economic situations that people struggle with. I wonder if the mental health issues are symptomatic of different, lifestyle problems.
Anyway, I hope that you are feeling better and that this all passes soon. Drink lots and lots of water to help flush it all from your system.
Good luck,
starlight
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 22, 2004, at 16:09:53
In reply to Re: Past 100h ... still alive but feeling like crap, posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 13:45:48
Well, it became really really really bad this afternoon so I finally popped a Celexa 20 .. but no Effexor ... the suicidal thoughts were back "en force" and I basically had a hard time just walking to the bathroom. Being alone for the next two days, I didn't want to risk it ... I mean sure I have my pets to keep me "grounded" but I don't want to have to go to the ER either.
I'm really thinking that this whole idea that the Celexa might be "masking" the effexor withdrawal because I definately feel better now. In fact, I feel like my normal self right now.
If I can get myself off the Effexor, I will be satisfied for now ... and then after a few months I'll try and remove the Celexa as well.
Maybe if my doctor sees that I've done half the work on my own and am still doing fine he will help me get rid of the last med ... and as far as I know the Celexa withdrawal is nowhere near as bad as the Effexor.
Posted by ravenstorm on July 22, 2004, at 18:57:28
In reply to partially gave in ..., posted by Camille Dumont on July 22, 2004, at 16:09:53
I think you are VERY WISE to do this one drug at a time. It may take longer, but you have a much better chance of success.
Hang in there!
Posted by Camille Dumont on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:00
In reply to Re: partially gave in ..., posted by ravenstorm on July 22, 2004, at 18:57:28
Well, it will soon be the 1 week mark and I think the worse is over. The Celexa has totally killed any withdrawal I felt ... no more dizzyness, no more strange food cravings and I actually managed to sleep until 5AM instead of waking up at 3AM. I'll give it a month or two before I tackle getting rid of the Celexa wich from what I know is not as bad as Effexor.
Posted by KaraS on July 23, 2004, at 23:35:34
In reply to I think the worse may be over., posted by Camille Dumont on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:00
> Well, it will soon be the 1 week mark and I think the worse is over. The Celexa has totally killed any withdrawal I felt ... no more dizzyness, no more strange food cravings and I actually managed to sleep until 5AM instead of waking up at 3AM. I'll give it a month or two before I tackle getting rid of the Celexa wich from what I know is not as bad as Effexor.
Makes a lot of sense! The Celexa eases the transition off of Effexor. Later the Celexa is not that difficult to get off. Why suffer if you don't have to?
This is the end of the thread.
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