Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13781

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Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by lorily on July 16, 2004, at 8:25:47

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book Atticus, posted by corafree on July 15, 2004, at 20:58:43

Corafree,
I know what you mean about the bipolar thing. It's weird how we get all these different diags and "maybe it's....let's try a pill and see how you feel"
I'm so glad I found this site. I searched the net for effexor or even depakote half life, here I am. I can't stay away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (is there a label for that, too? :)
Good to be able to relate with others on our experiences. Reminds me of AA

 

Re: Does Effexor work - corafree

Posted by Atticus on July 16, 2004, at 8:31:06

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book Atticus, posted by corafree on July 15, 2004, at 20:58:43

Corafree,
Wow! I just read your latest post, and it was eerily like reading about myself (except substitute one broken marriage and one suicide attempt). All the rest was spot on. I shy away from being diagnosed as bipolar for two main reasons, I think. One is that I've seen the side effects that lithium has on people, and I'm scared to death of being put on that particular med. And second -- also related to meds -- I'm hesitant to even speak the word "bipolar" or describe the above behaviors to my current pdoc (I think this is number six or seven). His first instinct, when I say anything is out of the ordinary or not so hot in my life, is to grab his prescription pad and start talking about a med switch, and I HATE med changes. They are so disruptive to my mental equilibrium -- between the withdrawl from the old med and the adjustment period to the new med -- that I'm always sitting there in his office thinking to myself, "STUPID, STUPID, STUPID! Why did I say anything?" It would be one thing if I was really going through a crisis and wanted a med change. But this guy is willing to pull one med and substitute another at the drop of a hat, it seems. Which is why I floated this notion of whether the behaviors I mentioned seemed manic or not in this forum first. Also, I've been reading about all these horrendous withdrawl effects related to the Effexor-XR I'm taking now, and the last thing I want at the moment is to be plunged into that less than two months after a suicide attempt. OY! I do want to understand my illness better, as you said, but part of me also agrees with lorily's recent post: you can really get overloaded with info and start to think you have every psychiatric problem in the book. I'm going to take your advice and just take things as they come. Thanks. Atticus

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by lorily on July 16, 2004, at 8:31:40

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book lorily, posted by Atticus on July 15, 2004, at 15:44:00

Atticus,
Yes, tes, and yes. That's me. couldn't ever relate to the manic thing, that's why they have bipolar II and rapid cycling and .......
There's always something to relate to, for me it was a little of this one and a little of that one.
the doc asked me if I had racing thoughts when I wasn't trying to sleep. And in frustration I replied, "Of course, when I have 5 different things going on at the same time that HAVE to get done BY ME, I HAVE TO DO THEM......... and he looked at me like, 'I rest my case'

 

Re: Does Effexor work PoohBear

Posted by Shyla on July 16, 2004, at 9:04:38

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work Corafree, posted by PoohBear on July 14, 2004, at 18:49:43

Tony, I wanted to tell you how impressed I was with your poem. It's very good.
Shyla

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book lorily

Posted by corafree on July 16, 2004, at 16:02:54

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book, posted by lorily on July 16, 2004, at 8:31:40

I know some of you must have seen Ordinary People. Judd Hirsch (psych) asks Timothy Hutton (just out of psych hospital), "Why are you here?" and Hutton says, "I don't know..you tell me..you're the doctor!?" That's the prob'; we have to be careful what we say. Maybe we are our own worst enemies and judge ourselves too harshly, therefore come across worse than we are? We don't want to raise any RED FLAGS that are incorrect. I'm having my daughter accompany me, whenever she is able, as an advocate of sort, to my psych and pain doc. She won't always be able to go, but someone that loves you well can be helpful. I've been too honest w/ some of my doctors, but in my emotional honesty sometimes shortchange myself, and later think, 'that wasn't right, shouldn't have answered that way'. They ask, "do you think you're addicted?", and then they watch for a RED FLAG. My emotions want to blurt out, 'well, it's an addictive drug, shouldn't I be?' Recently, a pscyh pretty much blackmailed me into saying I was addicted to benzos to allow me to stay on 2mg Klonopin for three more months, and I (totally anxious at this question and the my future flashing before my eyes) said yes. Should have said something else...dependent maybe...not sure, or even, no, I don't think I am. But, being clear is difficult and since they write down everything thing you say w/o mentioning your manner, it's really important. If your chart goes to a new doc, he/she is not going to know if you were joking, questioning (ya' know saying .. maybe blah blah blah, what do you think), or stating a fact. Then words can easily be taken out of context (because your manner of speaking is not written down). Think a personal advocate; so thankful for this daughter, should help me. Good Friday friends. Time for a nap (Have chronic pain to boot!). cf

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book corafree

Posted by Atticus on July 16, 2004, at 21:14:23

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book lorily, posted by corafree on July 16, 2004, at 16:02:54

corafree,
The kind of cat-and-mouse game you describe with your pdoc -- where you're trying to be emotionally open yet fearful of what kind of consequences or misinterpretations this may result in -- is so frustratingly familiar. Even after eight years, I still haven't figured out how to tread this tightrope. On the one hand, I'm thinking that holding back means I'm not getting the full benefit out of the therapy. On the other hand, I've become increasingly guarded about what comes out of my mouth because, as you say, I don't want to inadvertantly raise any red flags that aren't really germane to what I'm trying to communicate about my condition. This paradox makes the whole process seem so counterproductive sometimes. Often, on the drive over to the pdoc's office, I even find myself rehearsing justifications for things, such as why I don't feel comfortable lowering my benzos at this point, just in case it comes up. But even when I do ridiculous stuff like this, the sessions still strike me as kind of a rigged game. My pdoc's mind is (presumably) clear. The biochemistry in my brain needs a pharmaceutical cocktail just to maintain anything resembling clarity. Even with the Effexor, which makes me feel sharper mentally than I have in about 10 years, it's still easy to feel overmatched and just give in to whatever he's saying about me. Have other people come up with strategies to navigate this dilemma better than I do? Atticus

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 1:07:48

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book corafree, posted by Atticus on July 16, 2004, at 21:14:23

> corafree,
> The kind of cat-and-mouse game you describe with your pdoc -- where you're trying to be emotionally open yet fearful of what kind of consequences or misinterpretations this may result in -- is so frustratingly familiar. Even after eight years, I still haven't figured out how to tread this tightrope. On the one hand, I'm thinking that holding back means I'm not getting the full benefit out of the therapy. On the other hand, I've become increasingly guarded about what comes out of my mouth because, as you say, I don't want to inadvertantly raise any red flags that aren't really germane to what I'm trying to communicate about my condition. This paradox makes the whole process seem so counterproductive sometimes. Often, on the drive over to the pdoc's office, I even find myself rehearsing justifications for things, such as why I don't feel comfortable lowering my benzos at this point, just in case it comes up. But even when I do ridiculous stuff like this, the sessions still strike me as kind of a rigged game. My pdoc's mind is (presumably) clear. The biochemistry in my brain needs a pharmaceutical cocktail just to maintain anything resembling clarity. Even with the Effexor, which makes me feel sharper mentally than I have in about 10 years, it's still easy to feel overmatched and just give in to whatever he's saying about me. Have other people come up with strategies to navigate this dilemma better than I do? Atticus

I haven't read all the rest of this thread so please forgive me if this is redundant, but have you ever considered finding a new pdoc? I have been to one who made me feel as you describe. He was more than adequate with regard to his knowledge of medications but left something to be desired on a more personal level. I found his attitude to be patronizing or perhaps a better word is infantilizing. That was probably his intention. At any rate, I later found another pdoc who treated our sessions as much more of a partnership. I expressed my views openly and we discussed them as opposed to me feeling that I had to defend my views. I was much more comfortable with that situation.

Just my two cents worth ...

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book KaraS

Posted by Atticus on July 17, 2004, at 8:33:11

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book, posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 1:07:48

Hi Kara,
Don't underestimate the value of your "two cents." :) It's the two cents of other people like you that keeps me coming back to this site. I'm actually having my first meeting with a new pdoc on Monday evening. I don't know if he'll be an improvement or not, but I'm going into this with as much optimism as possible. I actually had a wonderful pdoc when I lived in another state, but now she's 500 miles away, and finding someone with whom I feel as sympatico as I did with her has proven to be a real challenge. Wish me luck! Atticus

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 14:49:57

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book KaraS, posted by Atticus on July 17, 2004, at 8:33:11

> Hi Kara,
> Don't underestimate the value of your "two cents." :) It's the two cents of other people like you that keeps me coming back to this site. I'm actually having my first meeting with a new pdoc on Monday evening. I don't know if he'll be an improvement or not, but I'm going into this with as much optimism as possible. I actually had a wonderful pdoc when I lived in another state, but now she's 500 miles away, and finding someone with whom I feel as sympatico as I did with her has proven to be a real challenge. Wish me luck! Atticus


Atticus,

Good for you! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! (I had a great pdoc myself when I lived 3,000 miles away so I know how you feel. The one I see occassionally now is ok but not that same level of sympatico you describe.) Please keep us posted as to how it goes.

Kara

P.S. I like the name you chose. (I read another post of yours explaining why you chose it.)

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by lorily on July 17, 2004, at 14:52:31

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book, posted by KaraS on July 17, 2004, at 1:07:48

I MUST agree with Kara on changing docs. I had a wonderful one, we spent about an hour together (which wasn't scheduled) each time I saw her and she listened, I felt comfortable, open, et cetera. Unfortunately she had to leave the center I go to and though the doc I see now is okay, it's more of a "how do you feel............here's a refill" type of thing. When I told her I wanted to try to get off meds, she tried to subtly talk me out of it with the old "If you had high blood pressure would you want to stop your meds?" routine. I discussed my understanding that ADs be a temporary thing and that I wanted to go that route. Her reply was that some people do need to permanently be on them. It went back and forth a bit, but I had my mind made up I knew how I felt, I knew what I wanted, I know where I am in my life with recovery, I'm stabile, and there really wasn't (IN MY CASE< EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT) a good reason why I couldn't or shouldn't do as I felt was the best for me. I had done my research on the meds on the withdrawals, on the harm it could do me or a baby should I become pregnant, I have certain plans for the future where it would be best that I'm not on the meds IF I DON'T HAVE TO BE. If it doesn't work, or a depression relapse comes about, I'm perfectly willing to resume use of another drug Not effexor.
I think you shouldn't be playing a game and rehearsing what you might have to say if any case arose, just go there knowing what you feel you need. And be open to the fact that the doctor just might know better than you, but ask for an explanation that you understand and that convinces you in a way you're comfortable with. I took depakote for 2 years nto thinking I needed it, my therapist didn't think that was the right diagnosis, but because the doctor said so, they must be right. Well, I've learned they're not always right, especially when it comes to mixing around meds, it's a trial and error thing.

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book

Posted by lorily on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:21

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book lorily, posted by corafree on July 16, 2004, at 16:02:54

Oh, a post-script to my other post, this last one reminded me of this. After I had that meeting with my doc, I looked at my chart and she had written that I wanted to become pregnant and that's why I wanted off the meds!!!!!!!!!!! My actual statement at the end of the discussion was "If God puts a child into my life, I do not want to have to abort to avoid giving birth to a monster." That because of the horrible deformities that depakote can cause. And, this was after all my other statements on my research etcetera, she goes and puts that I want to become pregnant. and that was her whole summary of the session!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book lorily

Posted by corafree on July 18, 2004, at 11:22:53

In reply to Re: Does Effexor work - ADHD poem - Good book, posted by lorily on July 17, 2004, at 15:06:21

I am under an umbrella of state docs. Before disability, could afford more choices. I went to a good doc for 10 years before stopped working. Now under this umbrella the first doc I saw turned the room ice cold (you can say 'uncomfortable relationship' and move on to another), and so I went to another. He and I had a good relationship. I joked once (you know you get comfortable w/ someone and you have knowledge about diff' meds etc and will just mention something), kiddingly said, 'maybe I should go back Xanax again (I had taken myself off a high dose a year before - now down to 2mg Klonopin), or maybe Librium (prescribed in the 70s)', and I laughed. Well, this state umbrella let my doc' go a few months later. Unknowingly, I go to my appt. There sat 'Mr. God syndrome' saying, 'I'm taking you off your benzos, nothing you can say will change my mind.' This new doc had red flagged what my prior doctor had written re: Xanax and Librium. I filed a grievance about the Klonopin, and asked for a new doc; will now go to another doc under the same state umbrella. Thing is, my old doc hadn't written that I laughed, that I was joking around. He just wrote...pt asked for xanax, librium. I asked for a copy of my chart. While looking it over, my caseworker told me 'I KNOW you joke around, but someone else reading this might take it seriously; you can't joke around with these doctors, and now you know why.' He also said 'I write my notes, but sometimes when I go back to look at them, it's like they make the pt sound so much worse than he/she was.' This whole mess just happened. That is why I've shared this bit about red flags etc. Cross your fingers for a better new doc for me pls. It will be a month before I find out who they put me with now (You can't request a certain doc.). But chart prob' still there ... the chart is under the umbrella too. Of course w/ new doc I will try share that some progress notes have been taken out of context. Wish I could afford to get wet! cf

 

Re: thanks! Dr. Bob

Posted by Atticus on July 18, 2004, at 21:03:02

In reply to Re: thanks! (nm) PoohBear, posted by Dr. Bob on July 15, 2004, at 19:18:49

Dr. Bob,
Thanks for setting up this amazing site. In the week or so I've been participating in this virtual community, I've really come to value it. However, I'm having difficulty navigating my way to the other message boards here. In particular, I'd like to access Psycho-Babble Writing, Psycho-Babble Newbies, and Psycho-Social Babble, but I can't seem to figure out how. Do I need to confirm my registration for each new message board that I want to take part in? The process is probably simple, but right now trying to get from here to there has left me flummoxed. Little help? Thanks. Atticus

 

Re: navigating to the other message boards

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 19, 2004, at 1:10:18

In reply to Re: thanks! Dr. Bob, posted by Atticus on July 18, 2004, at 21:03:02

> I'm having difficulty navigating my way to the other message boards here... Do I need to confirm my registration for each new message board that I want to take part in?

Thanks for your interest. One registration fits all. On each main page that lists posts, there are areas, next to the Google areas, that have links to the other boards. Also, if you want, you can keep this small list of boards open and off to the side:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/list.html

Hope that helps,

Bob

 

Re: navigating to the other message boards Dr. Bob

Posted by Atticus on July 19, 2004, at 14:43:59

In reply to Re: navigating to the other message boards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 19, 2004, at 1:10:18

Thanks, that did the trick. I just posted my first poem on the writing board. Atticus

 

Newbie to Rx

Posted by GayleZer on July 20, 2004, at 22:33:58

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14

Wow....tons of info. Not sure I wanted to know all this. Sixteen year old son diagnosed with anxiety and depression due to undiagnosed ADHD. Finally stablized on Zoloft. All this lots of stress combined with Mom dieing year ago from Alzhiemers, in-laws dieing, two moves in 3 years and our house burned down in 1997. I started effexor xr this week. Not crying anymore, but sleeping constantly. Hoping that will pass soon which is ironic since I spent weeks wandering the house all night. You've given lots of insight and hope to be on the road to recovery. All this to say I'm no expert but the ADHD poem is great and boy did I ever see myself in that. Beginning to wonder if I, like my son, am ADHD. Any insight?

 

Re: Newbie to Rx GayleZer

Posted by corafree on July 21, 2004, at 2:25:04

In reply to Newbie to Rx, posted by GayleZer on July 20, 2004, at 22:33:58

Hi. Ya' know, just for a couple days now I've been thinking about my memory, how it always seems so bad (lost a job after a week and a half because they said I wasn't remembering instructions). It occurred to me that maybe it is not my memory, but 'my attention' that is bad. I've never thought about it much before, just thought was not too smart, a little slow, and maybe meds were causing my short-term memory probs'. I'm wondering the same thing you are. Effexor-XR makes me anxiously tired (does that make any sense?). Wish I could take a nap midday, but cannot sleep w/o taking something. If I do take something and get a midday nap, do well. cf

 

Re: Newbie to Rx corafree

Posted by Atticus on July 21, 2004, at 19:20:19

In reply to Re: Newbie to Rx GayleZer, posted by corafree on July 21, 2004, at 2:25:04

The term "anxiously tired" makes perfect sense to me, because I've had that reaction to other ADs, most notably the dreadful tricyclics. They made my thinking so muddled that I felt almost drunk, and I couldn't focus on completing even the simplest tasks, like reading a paragraph in a newspaper and remembering what it had said by the time I got to the next one. I'd have to go back to the beginning of the article again, but the same thing would happen; it was like running in quicksand. Yet at the same time, I felt unbearably antsy, unable to even sit still and do something as passive as watching the boob tube. I haven't had that kind of reaction on Effexor XR (150 mg./day), but my new pdoc told me Monday that both Effexor and the old tricyclics increase the level of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine in the brain. I'd known that Effexor did this, but I'd never known that about the tricyclics. So it's possible that the increase in norepinephrine levels in your brain's biochemistry caused by Effexor could be having a similar effect on you to the effect that tricyclics do on me. It's an absolutely maddening feeling to be simultaneously too sedated to do anything and too wired to even not do anything. Obviously, I'm only making a (somewhat) educated guess here based on my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt until you talk to a pdoc. But I have experienced the precise symptoms you're describing. Atticus

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by Leslie Elliott on July 22, 2004, at 2:01:58

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14

Was perscribed effexor xr 37.5 back in January '04 did not take it, now I'm willing to give it a try,took 1 pill yesterday, then found this website, was looking for more info, now I'm not so sure, most of the side effects seem pretty bad, and then there's withdrawal? I want to conquer my depression/general/social anxiety but don't know if I can take all of this, I'm really trying to understand and need help please. Thanks

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by Leslie Elliott on July 22, 2004, at 2:02:34

In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14

Was perscribed effexor xr 37.5 back in January '04 did not take it, now I'm willing to give it a try,took 1 pill yesterday, then found this website, was looking for more info, now I'm not so sure, most of the side effects seem pretty bad, and then there's withdrawal? I want to conquer my depression/general/social anxiety but don't know if I can take all of this, I'm really trying to understand and need help please. Thanks

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by lorily on July 22, 2004, at 8:50:06

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Leslie Elliott on July 22, 2004, at 2:02:34

Leslie,
If I had known of the side effects of Effexor, I would never have taken it. I must say that I am grateful I didn't know because Effexor enabled me to get my life together. Dealing with depression and being an active alcoholic is a Hell I hope to never return to. Only after taking Effexor, getting my depression under was the only way I could deal with my recovery. They went hand-in-hand for me. I refused ADs for a couple years, then finally agreed to take them (Effexor because I'd heard tremendous results from people I knew who took it) I never realized how depressed I was until I wasn't anymore!!!!!!!!!!! What freedom I have! I was able to handle everything else in my life. That began Feb 2003. Today, I am off effexor 8 days. I read all the horror stories and experienced some of the side effects myself. They are no picnic, but in my experience and based on my researching, the withdrawals can be managed or eliminated. 37.5 is a very low dose, Thats where I started, six months later I went up to 75. June 1 I went back to 37.5 and 5 weeks later began tapering the daily dose GRADUALLY. Took vitamins, took antihistamines, even tried dramamine. During the last week, I've had a cold which could be masking some symptoms, but all-in-all I'm doing well.
I understand there's a new medication, Cymbalta I believe that does the same thing without the side effects. I don't know where it's available, but talk to your doctor. I personally would rather try that than return to effexor if the need arose. Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by Sinnielou on July 22, 2004, at 9:07:06

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by lorily on July 22, 2004, at 8:50:06

Leslie,
Like starting any medications you put yourself at risk to suffer from side effects. Myself I have been on effexor for almost a year and I suffered dizzyness, lack of motivation etc etc. The higher dosage I went on the easier it got, now I'm better than I ever was. Effexor has taken me out of my deepest darkest depression,and it has helped with my anxiety. I myself don't plan to come of Effexor anytime soon, hopefully it will be with me for a very long time. It has truley worked for me. Do all the research you can before you continue with the med so you won't be surprised or scared of any of the side effects. Remember whatever medication you choose there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck to you!!!!
Shannon

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? Sinnielou

Posted by corafree on July 22, 2004, at 10:50:39

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by Sinnielou on July 22, 2004, at 9:07:06

I've posted here the way I take Effexor, which is 75mg am and then 5-6 hrs later take 37.5mg. Before I did this, I was actually feeling withdrawal symptoms (anxiety) every late afternoon to eve. Doing well with this 'bad metabolizer' regimen. My family (4 sisters and a brother, and my mother) have dis'd me, after my best friend/mentor, my father, died this past Feb. W/o Effexor-XR, I prob' would be gone by my own hands. I have some posts under suicide. I still mourn my father, but mourning those that are here, but not, is like 'teasing' and very hard to deal with. I have let it obsess me. My daughter and counselor keep telling me to let them go, accept that they don't care. But I am alone here and have never felt so lonely. Effexor-XR must be a good anti-depressant (tricyclics, and the SSRIs did nothing in the long run), because I haven't hurt myself ... instead am taking care of myself. The only side effect is the need for a nap, at least lie down and try to 'find your safe place', a few times throughout the day. Have tried to cut down coffee and soda, and get some fruit into my diet daily. I try to schedule one (maybe two if close) errand a day. May I ask you all pls say a prayer that something good will come my way and override this obsession with my fam' of origin. tks all cf

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?

Posted by dusty534 on July 22, 2004, at 11:11:31

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? Sinnielou, posted by corafree on July 22, 2004, at 10:50:39

Corafree, I'll be praying for you. It must be really hard missing your Dad...and being dissed by your family. Being depressed is hard enough for me w/o losing someone I love recently or being shunned by my family. My life's problems have all built up to the problems I have now.
I WAS on Effexor. I couldn't move...it had such a horrible effect on me. I got off of it slowly...and still had problems. But now I'm trying to deal with things. I really need to get back on something...but am scared to try something else because the next med might be just as bad for me as Effexor.
Keep going to your counselor...I hope that they are a Christian. Their help is what you need now. Keep writing, too. Get your feelings out...even tho you think that no one is listening. There are others who are where you are now...and we care!!!
Dusty

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? dusty534

Posted by corafree on July 22, 2004, at 11:44:28

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by dusty534 on July 22, 2004, at 11:11:31

I feel like this site has led me to true friends, understanding I have an illness; not saying how can we help you when you don't help yourself, as my family of origin has said, since Dad passed away. Maybe he guided me to meet you here. You have helped to fill my 'empty heart' ... pretty mushy, but really true. Thanks ... wish you were here Dusty. Corafree


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