Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 359192

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Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » paulbwell

Posted by blondegirl47 on June 24, 2004, at 15:39:59

In reply to DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE), posted by paulbwell on June 22, 2004, at 18:04:06

From what I have read it is highly addictive. There are some pdoc's who will be on alert after you request it from them. I would pose it as, hey doc, I read about desoxyn for my add symptoms...what do you think?
hope this helps
Blondegirl

 

Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE)

Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2004, at 19:46:39

In reply to Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » paulbwell, posted by blondegirl47 on June 24, 2004, at 15:39:59

I wish I were joking, but I really do want this surgery. I am considering ECT, but this surgery has been shown to be more effective than ECT, with less effect on cognition and neuronal integrety.

Linkadge

 

Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » Sad Panda

Posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2004, at 19:49:20

In reply to Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » paulbwell, posted by Sad Panda on June 23, 2004, at 1:44:40


> I think it's best to avoid it because it is too nerotoxic for continuos useage.
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>


Hi Panda!

I always hold your posts and advice/knowledge as accurate and very well researched - and I still do. But, I have to disagree with you about stimulants being neurotoxic. I don't have anything to specifically site to back up my opinion - but from all of MY research and studies I have never found anyone to really prove such neurotoxicity - unless one's a Breggin follower - then everything is bad.

So, I mean to no harm or challenge by this posting - just wanted to voice my opinion too.

Jerry :-)

 

Desoxyn

Posted by utopizen on June 24, 2004, at 23:42:04

In reply to Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » Sad Panda, posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2004, at 19:49:20

For the sake of not confusing others on this board, I think "Desoxyn" suffices as a subject line. Otherwise, people will not realize the differences that occur in the body when adulterants are added, when a drug is absorbed after IV administration versus orally swallowing a tablet, etc.

Moreover, not one person on this Earth, including this board, could possibly cite me a study or abstract that refers to Desoxyn in its 60 years on the market through Abbott Labs that it is in anyway "neurotoxic." Clearly, this is an example of what I call confusion between methamphetamine and Desoxyn. Yes, I think you get my point when I say that...

And could you tell me of a stimulant that's NOT neurotoxic when enough is given through an IV needle? Because virtually every study funded by the NIH or NIDA is researched using IV administration of methamphetamine, not oral administration of Desoxyn. Desoxyn doesn't come available orally, but methamphetamine does.

 

Re: Desoxyn » utopizen

Posted by jerrympls on June 25, 2004, at 1:18:44

In reply to Desoxyn, posted by utopizen on June 24, 2004, at 23:42:04

> For the sake of not confusing others on this board, I think "Desoxyn" suffices as a subject line. Otherwise, people will not realize the differences that occur in the body when adulterants are added, when a drug is absorbed after IV administration versus orally swallowing a tablet, etc.
>
> Moreover, not one person on this Earth, including this board, could possibly cite me a study or abstract that refers to Desoxyn in its 60 years on the market through Abbott Labs that it is in anyway "neurotoxic." Clearly, this is an example of what I call confusion between methamphetamine and Desoxyn. Yes, I think you get my point when I say that...
>
> And could you tell me of a stimulant that's NOT neurotoxic when enough is given through an IV needle? Because virtually every study funded by the NIH or NIDA is researched using IV administration of methamphetamine, not oral administration of Desoxyn. Desoxyn doesn't come available orally, but methamphetamine does.

Panda- I don't doubt anything that you have stated above. Of course given via IV methamphetamine is very bad - I have no dispute. I was referring in my previous post to oral FDA approved Desoxyn.

Honestly - I'm just trying to be nice here. I am not fighting you on whatyou say.

Jerry

 

Re: Desoxyn » utopizen

Posted by jerrympls on June 25, 2004, at 1:20:06

In reply to Desoxyn, posted by utopizen on June 24, 2004, at 23:42:04

OOPS - sorry I goofed up my last post. Sorry Utopizen.

Jerry :-(

 

Re: Desoxyn_utopizen

Posted by paulbwell on June 25, 2004, at 5:49:40

In reply to Desoxyn, posted by utopizen on June 24, 2004, at 23:42:04

> For the sake of not confusing others on this board, I think "Desoxyn" suffices as a subject line. Otherwise, people will not realize the differences that occur in the body when adulterants are added, when a drug is absorbed after IV administration versus orally swallowing a tablet, etc.
>
> Moreover, not one person on this Earth, including this board, could possibly cite me a study or abstract that refers to Desoxyn in its 60 years on the market through Abbott Labs that it is in anyway "neurotoxic." Clearly, this is an example of what I call confusion between methamphetamine and Desoxyn. Yes, I think you get my point when I say that...
>
> And could you tell me of a stimulant that's NOT neurotoxic when enough is given through an IV needle? Because virtually every study funded by the NIH or NIDA is researched using IV administration of methamphetamine, not oral administration of Desoxyn. Desoxyn doesn't come available orally, but methamphetamine does.

"Desoxyn doesn't come available orally, but Methamphetamine does"? Ha, what the?? well what are thoes little white pills with a rounded letter, A, on one side and ,TE, on the other, which you are so lucky to have? maybe 5mgs of instant release factory fresh pure Methyl-Amphetamine perhaps?.

anyways, yes pure Methy-Amphetamine manufactured in a drug factory environment,so hygenic, where you could eat your dinner of the floor of and sells as a medication intended to treat serious brain disorders ,and goes by the trade name of 'Desoxyn' is not nurotoxic, (as a friend of mine will attest to, after consuming 60-80mgs of it daily for 45 years, to control his Narcolepsy, so as he can be awake enought to have a life outside of his bed, where he would spend 20 hours daily, without the substance)
as opposed to the toxic poison, produced by amatures, and consumed by fools, and is known as 'meth'

 

Re: Desoxyn/Methamphetamine same thing. » utopizen

Posted by Sad Panda on June 25, 2004, at 13:11:08

In reply to Desoxyn, posted by utopizen on June 24, 2004, at 23:42:04

> For the sake of not confusing others on this board, I think "Desoxyn" suffices as a subject line.
>
>Desoxyn doesn't come available orally, but methamphetamine does.
>
>

You've confused the heck out of me, I thought Desoxyn was a tablet form of methamphetamine.

Cheers,
Panda.


 

Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » jerrympls

Posted by Sad Panda on June 25, 2004, at 13:32:58

In reply to Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » Sad Panda, posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2004, at 19:49:20

>
> > I think it's best to avoid it because it is too nerotoxic for continuos useage.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Panda.
> >
>
>
> Hi Panda!
>
> I always hold your posts and advice/knowledge as accurate and very well researched - and I still do. But, I have to disagree with you about stimulants being neurotoxic. I don't have anything to specifically site to back up my opinion - but from all of MY research and studies I have never found anyone to really prove such neurotoxicity - unless one's a Breggin follower - then everything is bad.
>
> So, I mean to no harm or challenge by this posting - just wanted to voice my opinion too.
>
> Jerry :-)
>
>

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the kind words, I'm probably out of my depth as far as amphetamines are concerned as I don't have Narcolepsy or ADD. I don't think all stimulants are evil, just meth. I can find plenty of abstracts showing that meth fed to mice & rats is neurotoxic but can't for actual humans. :)

Cheers,
Panda.

 

Re: DESOXYN-

Posted by utopizen on June 25, 2004, at 21:22:40

In reply to Re: DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE) » jerrympls, posted by Sad Panda on June 25, 2004, at 13:32:58

I think everyone missed my point when I said methamphetamine is methamphetamine and Desoxyn is Desoxyn. I realized that Desoxyn is d-desoxyephedine, but um, that was my point. When you think of meth, or read research on it, Desoxyn isn't being used. Methamphetamine, of which there are twenty or so different kinds, one of which includes Desoxyn, is studied. Few studies, if any at all (there might be one or two) are of Desoxyn (oral d-desoxyephedine). And there's hundreds, if not thousands.

The results would be more benign, and that doesn't get you grants from the slanted bias of the National Institutes of Drug Abuse

 

Re: METHAMPHETAMINE » utopizen

Posted by Sad Panda on June 25, 2004, at 23:32:19

In reply to Re: DESOXYN-, posted by utopizen on June 25, 2004, at 21:22:40

I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)

 

Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else)

Posted by utopizen on June 26, 2004, at 10:50:14

In reply to Re: METHAMPHETAMINE » utopizen, posted by Sad Panda on June 25, 2004, at 23:32:19

> I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)
>

No, they get unadulterated meth, but don't think researcher's can't use illicit drugs in their studies. My college isn't exactly a huge research school, but even they have done the requisite rats on coke copycat study.

Where do you think they get cocaine and meth to do these studies? Abbott (now Ovation owns it) certainly doesn't dish this stuff out for those purposes. Check out the DEA's Office of Drug Diversion website. They have forms to request schedule I, illicit/illegal drugs for research purposes.

And no, they don't use Desoxyn. I called the doctor that the maker of Desoxyn uses to research the stuff and give advice to the company on things related to it, and he said he was looking for studies but hadn't been able to find any yet. He said it was likely because it was first made in 1944.

 

Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine)-Utopizen

Posted by paulbwell on June 26, 2004, at 19:55:12

In reply to Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by utopizen on June 26, 2004, at 10:50:14

> > I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)
> >
>
> No, they get unadulterated meth, but don't think researcher's can't use illicit drugs in their studies. My college isn't exactly a huge research school, but even they have done the requisite rats on coke copycat study.
>
> Where do you think they get cocaine and meth to do these studies? Abbott (now Ovation owns it) certainly doesn't dish this stuff out for those purposes. Check out the DEA's Office of Drug Diversion website. They have forms to request schedule I, illicit/illegal drugs for research purposes.
>
> And no, they don't use Desoxyn. I called the doctor that the maker of Desoxyn uses to research the stuff and give advice to the company on things related to it, and he said he was looking for studies but hadn't been able to find any yet. He said it was likely because it was first made in 1944.

Some people would say he's a lucky Doc. He may want to try Lillys Drug Archives,or any Lilly drug service reps, working for them around 1950, for info, as they produced a product containing Methamphetamine, opps, I mean (d-desoxyephedrine) in 1950 which sold under the trade name "Amphetdroxyn" in two tablet sizes and in liquid form! so as thoes poor Hyperkinetic kiddies could take it by the teaspoon:). <I hope it was a refreshing minty flavour>

 

Re: this post hit the jackpot

Posted by 1980Monroe on June 26, 2004, at 21:25:10

In reply to DESOXYN---- prescription --(METHAMPHETAMINE), posted by paulbwell on June 22, 2004, at 18:04:06

I used to post on Desoxyn ALOT, only got like 3 posts back out of 5 posted. This one has like 20. I think i need to work on Charisma.

Desoxyn is the TOP class stimulant of the stimulant class. It turns a person dopamine-driven style, confident, motivated, ambitous. Strong dopamine stimulant.

If you belive you need it, dont mention it directly to your pdoc, because they always change facial expressions, and they'l start sitting edgy. when they here "desoxyn", infamous for its high potential for abuse. But no doubt it is effective for ADHD. Eventually it will come around, when you try everything else.

I used to take dexedrine(plain amphetamine) alot, and depended on it too much. Went to my hypnotherpist and learned to manipulate and increase my dopamine flow, so today i only take dexedrine 10mg, no more 50mg a day.

But play it cool, and wish the best for you on Desoxyn.... Later

Matt

 

Nurotoxic/Neurotoxic-Who Cares?

Posted by Anthony Quest on June 27, 2004, at 0:20:31

In reply to Re: this post hit the jackpot, posted by 1980Monroe on June 26, 2004, at 21:25:10

Utopizen is making an excellent point and the parroting of "meth is nurotoxic" would make the DEA very proud.

Assuming Desoxyn is "neurotoxic" why don't you explain what exactly that means? How much more neuorotoxic is it than Dexedrine. Dexedrine not neurotoxic you say, well what if the person who needs Desoxyn has to take 20 times the dose of Dexedrine that most other people do, just to stay awake. There are no study comparing 20 times the average dose of dexedrine to a normal dose of Desoxyn.

My point is that whether to use Desoxyn is a clinical decision made by a single patient and single doctor. The decision takes into account the situation that patient finds himself in, the other drugs that have been attempted, and ideally the physician explains the risks and benefits, and the patient makes the choice.

None of us will be influencing the national standard of care, so why is it so important to recite "Desoxyn is bad! Stay away!". Maybe it is bad for people with substance abuse disorders who have no clinical need for it. It's absolutely essential for those who are trying to live a normal life, have tried alternatives, and are living normally because of it.

In another post, someone in this thread criticized Xyrem as worse than crack. I feel like I finally have some quality of life back because of Xyrem. I have never taken Desoxyn, but I absolutely believe it should be available for anyone who needs it.

Just for the record "Zonegran, Lexapro, Straterra" are all way too knew for there to be any long-term studies determining what effect they have on the human brain. We could find out that everyone's brain turns to mush 10 years after being on these drugs. If you think the FDA waits 20 years to gather data before allowing a drug on the market, think again.

There is something to be said for a drug that has been on the market as long as Desoxyn in that at least we know the adverse events from prescription Desoxyn (federal law requires that the company report adverse incidents). You have no guarantee about Straterra and other newer drugs.

 

Re: Nurotoxic/Neurotoxic-Who Cares? A Quest

Posted by paulbwell on June 27, 2004, at 5:48:06

In reply to Nurotoxic/Neurotoxic-Who Cares?, posted by Anthony Quest on June 27, 2004, at 0:20:31

> Utopizen is making an excellent point and the parroting of "meth is nurotoxic" would make the DEA very proud.
>
> Assuming Desoxyn is "neurotoxic" why don't you explain what exactly that means? How much more neuorotoxic is it than Dexedrine. Dexedrine not neurotoxic you say, well what if the person who needs Desoxyn has to take 20 times the dose of Dexedrine that most other people do, just to stay awake. There are no study comparing 20 times the average dose of dexedrine to a normal dose of Desoxyn.
>
> My point is that whether to use Desoxyn is a clinical decision made by a single patient and single doctor. The decision takes into account the situation that patient finds himself in, the other drugs that have been attempted, and ideally the physician explains the risks and benefits, and the patient makes the choice.
>
> None of us will be influencing the national standard of care, so why is it so important to recite "Desoxyn is bad! Stay away!". Maybe it is bad for people with substance abuse disorders who have no clinical need for it. It's absolutely essential for those who are trying to live a normal life, have tried alternatives, and are living normally because of it.
>
> In another post, someone in this thread criticized Xyrem as worse than crack. I feel like I finally have some quality of life back because of Xyrem. I have never taken Desoxyn, but I absolutely believe it should be available for anyone who needs it.
>
> Just for the record "Zonegran, Lexapro, Straterra" are all way too knew for there to be any long-term studies determining what effect they have on the human brain. We could find out that everyone's brain turns to mush 10 years after being on these drugs. If you think the FDA waits 20 years to gather data before allowing a drug on the market, think again.
>
> There is something to be said for a drug that has been on the market as long as Desoxyn in that at least we know the adverse events from prescription Desoxyn (federal law requires that the company report adverse incidents). You have no guarantee about Straterra and other newer drugs.
>
>

Do you have Narcolepsy? and take 20x the normal dose of Dex?

and Xyrem does this increase wakefullness in you?

 

Sounds like a question for CHEMIST. » Anthony Quest

Posted by Sad Panda on June 27, 2004, at 10:43:11

In reply to Nurotoxic/Neurotoxic-Who Cares?, posted by Anthony Quest on June 27, 2004, at 0:20:31

> Assuming Desoxyn is "neurotoxic" why don't you explain what exactly that means? How much more neuorotoxic is it than Dexedrine. Dexedrine not neurotoxic you say, well what if the person who needs Desoxyn has to take 20 times the dose of Dexedrine that most other people do, just to stay awake. There are no study comparing 20 times the average dose of dexedrine to a normal dose of Desoxyn.
>
>

Your example is a poor, if a person needs only 5mg of Desoxyn to do what 100mg of Dexedrine does, then it's pretty obvious that you would take Desoxyn but it's not likely that Desoxyn is 20 times more potent than Dexedrine.

I would like Chemist's opinion on the difference between Desoxyn and Methamphetamine.

Cheers,
Panda.

 

Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else)

Posted by Sad Panda on June 27, 2004, at 10:53:34

In reply to Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by utopizen on June 26, 2004, at 10:50:14

> > I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)
> >
>
> No, they get unadulterated meth, but don't think researcher's can't use illicit drugs in their studies. My college isn't exactly a huge research school, but even they have done the requisite rats on coke copycat study.
>
> Where do you think they get cocaine and meth to do these studies? Abbott (now Ovation owns it) certainly doesn't dish this stuff out for those purposes. Check out the DEA's Office of Drug Diversion website. They have forms to request schedule I, illicit/illegal drugs for research purposes.
>
> And no, they don't use Desoxyn. I called the doctor that the maker of Desoxyn uses to research the stuff and give advice to the company on things related to it, and he said he was looking for studies but hadn't been able to find any yet. He said it was likely because it was first made in 1944.
>
>

So you are telling me that there is a difference between Ovation Desoxyn which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle & a bottle of generic methamphetamine tablets which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle and that reasearchers use illicit drugs?? :)


 

Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else)

Posted by Anthony Quest on June 27, 2004, at 14:51:21

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by Sad Panda on June 27, 2004, at 10:53:34

My only point in the hypothetical example is to show that some people do not get a favorible response from Dexedrine and the other stimulants and so having Desoxyn is important for them.

I am not making the argument that if Dexedrine works, you should take Desoxyn because it's better. Rather, I am stating the fact that there are people in whom nothing works but Desoxyn and they should have the option available.

I am also stating the fact that all drugs have costs associated with them and you are deceiving yourself if you think that simply because other medications are not "neurotoxic" they are some how obviously better than and safer than Desoxyn. They may be but it's not necessarily so.

Anyhow, why are you so hostile to Desoxyn. I am advocating it should be available to those who need. And no I have never taken it nor have I taken 20 times the normal dose of Dexedrine. That was to make a point - should we ban chemotherapy because it's toxic?


 

Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else)

Posted by paulbwell on June 27, 2004, at 19:16:08

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by Sad Panda on June 27, 2004, at 10:53:34

> > > I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)
> > >
> >
> > No, they get unadulterated meth, but don't think researcher's can't use illicit drugs in their studies. My college isn't exactly a huge research school, but even they have done the requisite rats on coke copycat study.
> >
> > Where do you think they get cocaine and meth to do these studies? Abbott (now Ovation owns it) certainly doesn't dish this stuff out for those purposes. Check out the DEA's Office of Drug Diversion website. They have forms to request schedule I, illicit/illegal drugs for research purposes.
> >
> > And no, they don't use Desoxyn. I called the doctor that the maker of Desoxyn uses to research the stuff and give advice to the company on things related to it, and he said he was looking for studies but hadn't been able to find any yet. He said it was likely because it was first made in 1944.
> >
> >
>
> So you are telling me that there is a difference between Ovation Desoxyn which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle & a bottle of generic methamphetamine tablets which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle and that reasearchers use illicit drugs?? :)
>
>
>

Ovation Desoxyn is the only 1 being made. They bought the rights to it and the Benzo Tranzene off Abbott several years ago. There is no other legal producer of d-desoxyephindrine available, no generics. Just Desoxyn

 

METHAMPHETAMINE

Posted by Sad Panda on June 28, 2004, at 5:50:24

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by paulbwell on June 27, 2004, at 19:16:08

> > > > I doubt researchers are using anything but Desoxyn, why would they? It's highly unlikely that scientists are visiting the neighbourhood tweaker for some local homebrewed speed to feed to their rodents when it would be cheaper & easier for them to buy the real McCoy. :)
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, they get unadulterated meth, but don't think researcher's can't use illicit drugs in their studies. My college isn't exactly a huge research school, but even they have done the requisite rats on coke copycat study.
> > >
> > > Where do you think they get cocaine and meth to do these studies? Abbott (now Ovation owns it) certainly doesn't dish this stuff out for those purposes. Check out the DEA's Office of Drug Diversion website. They have forms to request schedule I, illicit/illegal drugs for research purposes.
> > >
> > > And no, they don't use Desoxyn. I called the doctor that the maker of Desoxyn uses to research the stuff and give advice to the company on things related to it, and he said he was looking for studies but hadn't been able to find any yet. He said it was likely because it was first made in 1944.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > So you are telling me that there is a difference between Ovation Desoxyn which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle & a bottle of generic methamphetamine tablets which has methamphetamine hcl written on the bottle and that reasearchers use illicit drugs?? :)
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ovation Desoxyn is the only 1 being made. They bought the rights to it and the Benzo Tranzene off Abbott several years ago. There is no other legal producer of d-desoxyephindrine available, no generics. Just Desoxyn
>
>

I found that Able makes it too http://www.ablelabs.com/products/products.html

They both say methamphetamine hcl on the label, I think I'll just continue to call it meth to save all the confusion. :)

Cheers,
Panda.

 

Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else) » Anthony Quest

Posted by Sad Panda on June 28, 2004, at 6:07:34

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else), posted by Anthony Quest on June 27, 2004, at 14:51:21

> My only point in the hypothetical example is to show that some people do not get a favorible response from Dexedrine and the other stimulants and so having Desoxyn is important for them.
>
> I am not making the argument that if Dexedrine works, you should take Desoxyn because it's better. Rather, I am stating the fact that there are people in whom nothing works but Desoxyn and they should have the option available.
>
> I am also stating the fact that all drugs have costs associated with them and you are deceiving yourself if you think that simply because other medications are not "neurotoxic" they are some how obviously better than and safer than Desoxyn. They may be but it's not necessarily so.
>
> Anyhow, why are you so hostile to Desoxyn. I am advocating it should be available to those who need. And no I have never taken it nor have I taken 20 times the normal dose of Dexedrine. That was to make a point - should we ban chemotherapy because it's toxic?
>
>
>

I never said no one should take it or it should be banned, just that it should be avoided. Why go straight to the most potent/toxic drug? You don't reach for a vial of morphine & a hypodermic when you have a headache, you take asprin. What I originally said was "I think it's best to avoid it because it is too nerotoxic for continuos useage" it's pretty true don't you think? Sure there are people that can tolerate big doses for decades, but they are exceptional & pretty far from normal people.

> Anyhow, why are you so hostile to Desoxyn.

I'm not hostile to Desoxyn, but I get the impression you are hostile towards me.

Cheers,
Panda.

 

Re: let's keep it civil here, thanks (nm)

Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 6:40:26

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else) » Anthony Quest, posted by Sad Panda on June 28, 2004, at 6:07:34

 

Re: Sounds like a question for CHEMIST. » Sad Panda

Posted by chemist on June 28, 2004, at 14:31:39

In reply to Sounds like a question for CHEMIST. » Anthony Quest, posted by Sad Panda on June 27, 2004, at 10:43:11

> > Assuming Desoxyn is "neurotoxic" why don't you explain what exactly that means? How much more neuorotoxic is it than Dexedrine. Dexedrine not neurotoxic you say, well what if the person who needs Desoxyn has to take 20 times the dose of Dexedrine that most other people do, just to stay awake. There are no study comparing 20 times the average dose of dexedrine to a normal dose of Desoxyn.
> >
> >
>
> Your example is a poor, if a person needs only 5mg of Desoxyn to do what 100mg of Dexedrine does, then it's pretty obvious that you would take Desoxyn but it's not likely that Desoxyn is 20 times more potent than Dexedrine.
>
> I would like Chemist's opinion on the difference between Desoxyn and Methamphetamine.
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>
hi there, chemist here....desoxyn = (S)-methamphetamine, and dexedrine = d-amphetamine. panda is correct in re: potency. there is a body of literature that reports that methamphetamine is about twice as potent as d-amphetamine. potency is derived from dose/response evaluations of subjects, and i can point you to several citations that conclude that (S)-methamphetamine and d-amphetamine are actually equipotent. HOWEVER, it turns out that (in at least 1 study examining a D_{1} antagonist) the mechanisms of neurotoxicity at high doses of desoxyn and dexedrine are different, as the antagonist protected against death from dexedrine in a dose-dependent fashion but not for desoxyn. (Derlet et al., Life Sci. 47:821-827 (2000)). but, the equipotency has been established, too. [e.g., Woolverton et al., Pharmacol. Biochem. Behav. 13:869-876 (1980)]. but then, see Peachey et al., Psychopharmacology 51:137-140 (1977) for evidence of greater stimulation (not potency) of desoxyn than dexedrine. more recently, Melega et al. JPET 274:90-96 (1995) concluded that low doses of either drug exhibited similar pharmacokinetics and dopamine response, although this is not a measure of potency nor were the doses extreme. from an abstract by Ellison and Switzer in Neuroreport. 25:17-20 (1993), they report (i quote) ``Both [dexedrine] and [cocaine] induced pronounced degeneeration in fasciculus retroflexus, but only [dexedrine] further induced substantial degeneration in striatum...[Desoxyn] administered in the very high dose but less prolonged drug regimen often employed in studies of dopamine toxicity induce pronounced degeneration in striatum, but widespread degeneration in many other regions as well.'' and then there is one paper by the man who instigated the FDA to make MDMA illegal: Ricaurte et al., Neuropharmacology 22:1165-1169 (1983), in which ``Repeated administration of large doses of [desoxyn] produce long-lasting depletion of brain dopamine and serotonin, as well as persistent decreases in the activity of their respective biosynthetic enzymes...'' interestingly, dexedrine - in ``a comparable regimen'' to the desoxyn dosing - ``did not did not produce long-lasting depletion of 5-HT in either the neostriatum or hippocampus.'' but, it turns out (and not just in this ref) that pretreatment with fluoxetine likely inhibits metabolism of amphetamines in general. so, in summary: potency is derived from dose/response curves, and in low doses, it appears as if desoxyn and dexedrine exhibit similar pharmacokinetics and are somewhat equipotent. however, at high doses of both drugs, the potency of desoxyn is greater and the toxicity is, as well, due to the larger amount of the brain affected in re: dopamine and 5-HT response. most drugs exhibit linear pharacokinetics/dynamics in the recommended dose ranges. the LD_{50} for desoxyn and dexedrine are almost identical, but at higher doses, desoxyn is more lethal. finally, as i posted some time ago, the study by (again) Ricaurte et al. in Science 297:2260-2263 (2003) entitled ``Severe dopaminergic neurotoxicity in primates after a common recreational dose regimen of MDMA (``ecstact'')'' - which was later retracted because the drugs given to the 5 monkeys tunred out to be methamphetamine and not MDMA - is actually testament to the neurotoxicity to methamphetamine (desoxyn). the dose was 6 mg/kg over 6 hours. recalling that this was pure methamphetamine, this means that your 100 mg desoxyn would correspond to your weight at about 16 kg, or about 35 lbs. 1 monkey died, 1 was unable to continue after the second dose (dosing was 2 mg/kg tid), and the 3 surviving monkeys were examined over several weeks after the acute dosing (there's more, and i can send you the PDF of the article if you desire, or anyone else). conclusions: severe dopaminergic injury and serotonergic neuortoxicity (for subjects using methamphetamine in repeated doses over several hours). the implication is that using desoxyn for a prolonged period - which is essentially what this last study showed - is bad news compared to dexedrine. hope this helps, and all the best, chemist

 

Re: Desoxyn -Civility

Posted by Anthony Quest on June 28, 2004, at 19:33:50

In reply to Re: Desoxyn (d-desoxyephederine, not anything else) » Anthony Quest, posted by Sad Panda on June 28, 2004, at 6:07:34

It certainly was not my intent to be hostile to Sad Panda or anyone else. If everyone agrees that Desoxyn is not a first choice but should be available for those who have tried other stimulants and failed them, and whose physicians recommend Desoxyn to be taken under medical supervision, then I guess none of us disagree.

I think that out of respect for those who do take prescription Desoxyn under the care of a physician, it is not appropriate to refer to the medical drug as "METH" as a previous post suggested. All of us deal with enough stigma without having to be associated with illicit drug use. "METH" is a street name and I think its confusing rather than helpful.

Again, I apologize if I misread anyone's post as to what his or her position was. As for chemists cites, I am grateful for his expertise as always.


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