Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 253823

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EEG Biofeedback (was Re: After shocks of trauma)

Posted by Michael D on February 14, 2004, at 9:55:04

In reply to Re: After shocks of trauma, posted by shadows721 on September 5, 2003, at 22:44:12

Hi Shadows,

You wrote (back in September 2003):

> Now, I am talking to a specialist about trying EEG biofeedback. Have you tried this treatment? Haven't spoken to anyone that has benefited from it.

I've tried it and it made my symptoms worse. I also have complex PTSD. I think Complex PTSD is just too acute to benefit from EEG Biofeedback.

I've done a lot of research on brainwaves, EMDR, and EEG biofeedback, and I've come to believe that EMDR and EEG both work to change the electrical brainwaves in your brain. The EEG biofeedback frequencies that are used to treat trauma are near the upper end of Theta waves, and the lower end of Alpha waves, if I recall.

I believe that EMDR basically does the same thing.

The one hope I had from EEG is that I would learn to control my brainwaves and so I could put my brain into a peaceful state - ie. shut down the hypervigilance (hell).

I know someone else who tried EEG Biofeedback who also seems to have similar symptoms to mine. He also found that EEG made things worse for him. Then he tried HEG biofeedback, and he said he had lots of success.

HEG biofeedback works more with altering blood-flow, I think. It's much gentler than EEG biofeedback. If I could afford it, I would definitely try HEG biofeedback.

I would love to talk more about coping with Complex PTSD. I've asked Dr. Bob to start up a new list on trauma so that we could talk about these issues.

> The buspar has not made me have the typical SSRI symptoms either.

What typical symptoms do you mean?

I found that SSRIs increased my hypervigilence.

Cheers,

Michael D

 

Re: EEG Biofeedback (was Re: After shocks of trauma)

Posted by Lorryn on March 1, 2004, at 15:58:28

In reply to EEG Biofeedback (was Re: After shocks of trauma), posted by Michael D on February 14, 2004, at 9:55:04

I would also like to add a small twist to this conversation. I have begged my physician, my Internist, my neurologist and my pdoc to withdraw me from klonopin with each one telling me to continue. They dont want to even touch it knowing that withdrawal is hard. I complain of increased depression while taking it and lethargy. Severe dry skin and altered breathing. I have tried to withdrawal on my own with pure hell as you all know. Having doctors that will not cooperate and give anything in exchange for it. Oh benzos also cause me to experience hypo tension with causes lightheadedness. I fully agree with each of your statements in that withdrawal from this causes a host of problems. It is much easier for the physician to talk you into thinking your experiencing rebound problems then to admit that the med should not have been prescribed in the first place. (why blame meds its their living) it must be you. Funny thing is i never experienced severe heart palpitations prior to taking this med only while coming off it. Go figure Lorryn

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by Dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:32:45

In reply to withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by sheebies on August 25, 2003, at 8:54:49

Hi,

Two things. Since Klonopin is a longer acting BZ than Xanax it is easier to get off of than Xanax. When I had to get of Ativan (short acting), my doctor first switched me to Klonopin, and then tapered me off that rather then tapering me directly off the short acting Ativan. I really didn't have any problems getting off the Klonopin. Maybe you should taper off even slower, I don't know.

Also, if you were having panic attacks, your pdoc probably gave you Xanax because that supposedly is only one that controls true panic attacks.

Regarding developing a tolerance for BZs., two different docs told me that won't happen with BZ's even if you take them for an extended period. A tolerance basicalloy means that your body gets used to the med., and you keep having to taking a higher and higher dosage to get the same effect.

One psychological tip for getting off the BZ's that I was told about was I thought was helpful:

-- Just having the BZ with you will reduce your anxiety, even if you don't take it because you know that you can take it if you starting freaking out from an anxiety attack.

Bye,

Dave

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:59:12

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:32:45

I feel that Klonopin withdrawal is worse than Xanax withdrawal simply because it has a longer half-life; therefore, it lasts longer.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 14:58:41

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:59:12

Hi

Sevral docs. have told me that
The shorter acting BZ's hit you faster and stronger and are thus harder to get off of.


Analogy,

Not that I have personal experience, but smoking cracking cocaine is more addictive than snorting cocaine because smoking it hits your brain much faster and more intensely.

Bye,

Dave

> I feel that Klonopin withdrawal is worse than Xanax withdrawal simply because it has a longer half-life; therefore, it lasts longer.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by ryan123 on March 2, 2004, at 16:32:04

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 14:58:41

I'm sure it's also harder to get off klonopin after you've been on it for years.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 18:08:12

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 2, 2004, at 16:32:04

It's harder to get off of crack cocaine than powder cocaine because people consume crack in much larger amounts. People may smoke a gram of crack in a minute while it would take a much longer period of time to consume that much by snorting it.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:14:29

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 18:08:12

Hi,

I copied some information to the bottom of this post from a site called benzo.org.uk

(Note to the person needing to get off Klonopin:

Maybe you should look into Tegretol. This was also suggested on the above website for helpt with BZ. withdrawal. I know nothing about it)

Good night, good luck, good bye - DAVE

QUOTE

" WHAT IS A "HALF-LIFE", AND HOW IS THE CONCEPT IMPORTANT TO BENZODIAZEPINE DEPENDENCE?

Half-life is a numerical expression of how long it takes for a drug to leave your body. Technically, the "half-life," expressed as a range, is the time it takes for half of the amount consumed to be eliminated from your body, and so on. There is some controversy as to how long benzodiazepines may actually remain in your body after you have discontinued them entirely. Benzodiazepines are fat soluble and can persist in fatty tissues. However, benzodiazepines no longer show up in blood screenings beyond 30 days after discontinuance. This either means they are totally eliminated by that time, or that they persist in amounts too small to have any long term effect.

The importance of half-life is that a longer half-life generally makes for an easier withdrawal because your blood levels remain relatively constant, as opposed to the up and down roller coaster that you experience with short half life benzodiazepines. Furthermore, longer half-life benzodiazepines require less dose micro-management. For example, Valium can be taken once every 12 hours, or in some cases, once every 24 hours. Xanax, however, must be taken once every 4-6 hours to maintain constant blood levels. This is a practical impossibility for some people.

The following is a list of benzodiazepines with their corresponding half-lives, expressed as a range in hours:

Alprazolam 9 - 20
Bromazepam 8 - 30
Chlordiazepoxide 24 - 100
Clonazepam 19 - 60
Clorazepate 1.3 - 120
Diazepam 30 - 200
Estazolam 8 - 24
Flunitrazepam 18 - 26
Flurazepam 40 - 250
Halazepam 30 - 96
Ketazolam 30 - 200
Lorazepam 8 - 24
Lormetazepam 10 - 12
Nitrazepam 15 - 48
Oxazepam 3 - 25
Prazepam 30 - 100
Quazepam 39 - 120
Temazepam 3 - 25
Triazolam 1.5 - 5

There is a misconception that longer half-life benzodiazepines prolong the withdrawal recovery process by remaining in your body tissues for longer. However, there is no evidence that longer half-life benzodiazepines represent any greater risk for Protracted Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Syndrome (see below) than shorter half-life benzodiazepines. This method of using a longer half-life equivalent is well understood in addiction medicine circles, and is employed with other classes of drugs as well. For example, people who are experiencing withdrawal symptoms from an antidepressant such as Paxil (Seroxat, paroxetine) are often given Prozac (fluoxetine) as a substitute for purposes of withdrawal, because Prozac has a longer half-life. Perhaps a more typical example is the use of the drug Methadone in heroin detoxification, which is employed in part because of its relatively long half-life. "

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:29:42

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:14:29

As far as withdrawal's lasting longer not affecting addiction, look at cigarettes. It takes a full six months for all nicotine to be eleminated from one's body.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin MSTROU1

Posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 7:34:01

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:29:42

In know, I've tried to get off cigarettes twice and failed. Addictions are a real pain in A...

Bye,

Dave

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 9:08:53

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin MSTROU1, posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 7:34:01

I'm currently addicted to Lexa-Pro (YES it is addictive...without it I dunno how I'd function), Buspar (same as Lexa-Pro, even if it's not physical), nicotine and Klonopin. Supposedly quitting cigarettes is like losing a loved one. I'd say that I could get off of Buspar and Lexa-Pro if I really tried and tapered. I dunno about Klonopin and Cigarettes though. I've tried to get off of both for a very long time with no luck whatsoever.

Carter

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 9:08:53

Hi all,

Dave, I read your post about the ease of getting off tranquilizers compared to their half life. For me, it did not seem to go that way though.

In January of 1997, I was in detox and got off oxazepam and alcohol in exactly 5 days. After the fifth day, I felt like a new man ready to take on anything.

Over this Christmas, I weened off and quit taking klonopin. From the day I quit taking klonopin to when the recognizable withdrawal symptoms quit was seven weeks.

I'm not saying your article is wrong or anything, I'm just saying for me it was different. One would think booze and oxazepam (with a half life of 3-25 hours) would be harder to to get off klonopin (half life of 19-60 hours) based on your article.

I think if I was trying to get off klonopin and used a benzo with a longer half life, then quit that additional drug, it would be easier since the benzo helping me get off klonopin was in my system for a short period of time.

It could be a possibility that it took so long to get off klonopin because my anxiety is so much worse now. Possibily also a contributing factor was my addiction problems, drinking a bottle of vodka every day for a couple of years.

Or it still could be the very long half life of klonopin (which I tend to believe). Whatever the case, getting off of it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

The doctors gave me serequel and propanalol to help me get off of it. I took unprescribed oxazepam most of the time as well. The propanalol helped my body keep my blood pressure and heart rate low. Without it, my bp was 30 points higher on each number and heart rate was always between 120 and 150 bpm. Pretty much constantly felt like I was having a stroke until propanalol was administered to me.

Now the doctors gave me a prescription to oxazepam and tegretol. I have no idea what tegretol does, but it is helping me.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 15:48:43

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05

Tegretol is an anticonvulsant that inhibits nerve impulses.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin ryan123

Posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 18:25:55

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05

Hi Ryan,

My doctor cut me back on Ativan and I was taking unprescribed Xanax. I get my new Ativan tomorrow so I won't have to use the Xanax anymore. If I ever have to cut back drastically again like he made me, I will definetly ask about Tegretol. It sounds like it really makes things easier.

Bye,

Dave

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin Dave1

Posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 9:25:55

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin ryan123, posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 18:25:55

Do you think Trileptal will work as well ? I'm asking because I'm trying to quit my xanax ... I have experienced a bad withdrawal from benzos (I didn't realize I was dependant) and my p-doc put me on xanax that seems a nonsense to me. I don't know if he had realized I was experiencing a benzo-withdrawal but the syntoms seem to me evident (derealization, weakness in arms and legs and so on). Now he wants me to stay on 0,25 mg a day of Xanax but I'm sleepy all day long. I'm taking also 10mg of Anafranil which can somehow contribute to the sleepiness. I have some Trileptal at home and I'm wondering if I have to quit Xanax without my p-doc's approval. Thanks in advance for any comment

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 9:48:51

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin Dave1, posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 9:25:55

I've never heard of Trileptal. You're on a very low dosage of Xanax so I don't see how it could make you drowsy all day long.

BTW, a note on half-lifes...SSRI's make benzos' half-lifes longer.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin MSTROU1

Posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 12:10:32

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 9:48:51

Yes, maybe it's depression in itself. But I meant to write 0,25 mg *twice* a day. Thanks

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by ryan123 on March 4, 2004, at 14:57:06

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin Dave1, posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 9:25:55

The generic name for Trileptal is Oxcarbazepine and the generic name for Tegretol is Carbamazepine. They were both put on the market for treatment of seizures. I don't think there would be any harm, but then again, I'm no doctor.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 15:29:25

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 4, 2004, at 14:57:06

I just got back from my shrink. She put me on 2 mg of Xanax daily to get off of Klonopin, plus 800 mg of Neurontin 3 x daily in addition to the 10 mg of Abilify, 60 mg of Buspar, and 30 mg of Lexa-Pro. Any ideas on how this will help me?

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by Dave1 on March 4, 2004, at 16:26:27

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 15:29:25

Hi,

I know Buspar is an anti-anxiety med that isn't addictive, but takes a couple of weeks to work.

I've never heard of trilepital either.

Bye,

Dave

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 17:50:51

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 4, 2004, at 16:26:27

I've been taking Buspar for seven years now, at 30 mg twice daily. It works a little bit for light anxiety, but I really need a benzo for other matters. I've never found Buspar to be addictive, although one week that I was out of town and didn't have any I got very irritable and had some headaches.

Carter

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin ryan123

Posted by zero on March 4, 2004, at 18:14:50

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05

Haven't needed to stop taking Klonopin so far (2mg./day for 8yrs. and still works), but have quit Valium twice.

Valium withdrawal #1 was terrible, as I didn't understand what I was dealing with and quit way too fast.

Valium withdrawal #2 wasn't quite as bad, because I tapered off more slowly.

Both times, the real problem was that once off Valium, my anxiety came back "in spades". Even 2+ months after stopping the Valium, it would be so bad that I rarely left my apartment.

Time #2 Tegretol saved me. I got referred to my 1st psychopharmacologist, who put me on a modest dose of Tegretol, which immediately stopped the panic/anxiety/agitation and I no longer felt any "withdrawal".

Just my experience.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin zero

Posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 18:24:36

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin ryan123, posted by zero on March 4, 2004, at 18:14:50

What syntoms did you experience from Valium withdrawal ? I'm asking because I didn't manage to understand I was experiencing a benzo withdrawal until I took Xanax (and the syntoms subsided). It was frightening because I didn't know what I was coming through, I thought I had some neurological disorder !
Now I'm planning to quit Xanax, I'm just taking 0,25 mg twice a day and I'm looking for a schedule. Glad to hear Klonopin it's helping. Bye

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin francesco

Posted by zero on March 4, 2004, at 22:03:21

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin zero, posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 18:24:36

"Mental symptoms" (heightened anxiety, feeling like I was going crazy, fear of losing control, derealization, depersonalization, bad depression, fear of other people, fear of going out).
"Physical symptoms" (muscle tension, difficulty sleeping, my whole body ached, feeling like I had a bad case of the flu, at the end of taper my body was just screaming, other stuff for which I don't know the words).

From what I've read, the best thing is to use a benzo with a long half-life (Xanax has a very short half-life and is supposed to be one of the hardest to stop), and taper down very slowly (as your body & mind will tolerate). My feeling is to minimize the pain - who cares if it takes even a year or more if you are successful and don't go thru too much agony.

I've read of using Tegretol, Neurontin or low-dose Seroquel to minimize the withdrawal symptoms (and treat the emerging anxiety).

My personal experience with Trileptal is that while very close to Tegretol in chemical structure, it doesn't help with anxiety.

Everyone is different though.

While not a fan of their beliefs in general, I do think the "benzo.org" site has good info. on tapering strategies and schedules.

Best of luck in this.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by Dave1 on March 5, 2004, at 0:25:05

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 9:08:53

Hi,

My idiot shrink made me cut my Ativan in half, all at once, because I was abusing it. Now, I'm really freaking out. I feel like I'm going crazy, etc. I just took some Valium I found laying around and feel a little better. I'm going to call the shrink tomorrow, and tell him I need a new script for Ativan, a week earlier then he said he would give it to me. I hope he gives it to me.

Bye,

Dave


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