Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 281840

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Anyone have any experience with Menninger (clinic)

Posted by Stavros on November 20, 2003, at 18:28:24

For Psychiatric treatment? http://www.menninger.edu/index.html

S

 

http://www.menninger.edu/index.html ???

Posted by Stavros on November 21, 2003, at 21:06:04

http://www.menninger.edu/index.html

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » Stavros

Posted by paulk on November 24, 2003, at 19:47:50

In reply to Anyone have any experience with Menninger (clinic), posted by Stavros on November 20, 2003, at 18:28:24

Yes, but long ago - 1976-80 . I don't know that they have changed except that they keep getting smaller - at that time they were Freudian based stuff - It just fails to work - understanding your problems philosophically will not make them go away. (I understand that I have diabetes and why – now I will will it to go away<grin>).

I was in patient for 9 mo and knew many people there – and unfortunately I knew many that did not survive – not that it was their fault – it is just that they didn't get better in spite of that brand of treatment.

They were extremely against using medication except as a last resort and I saw them push a friend off a low dose of Valium that I think caused him the lose of his marriage. Their resistance to using medications is sited as the reason that they are so small now.

I think the people there meant well, but I sure wished they had put me on Nardil instead of talking me to death.

One of the most important things of my Medicine experience is to realize that I really couldn't have changed without meds (and todays meds are really quite crude) and I felt a relief of guilt for being who I am, yet sadness for having missed most of life.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » paulk

Posted by Stavros on November 24, 2003, at 22:03:08

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » Stavros, posted by paulk on November 24, 2003, at 19:47:50

Paul,

Thanks for your response. I don't know what to make of going there for a 2nd opinion? My phD recommend that I look into it? I hate to grieve the loss of some great times of my life as well but i am lways looking for a next steps. I tried psycho analysis and wasted $20K in 6 months of blah blah blah talk. Analysts are a dying breed.

> Yes, but long ago - 1976-80 . I don't know that they have changed except that they keep getting smaller - at that time they were Freudian based stuff - It just fails to work - understanding your problems philosophically will not make them go away. (I understand that I have diabetes and why – now I will will it to go away<grin>).
>
> I was in patient for 9 mo and knew many people there – and unfortunately I knew many that did not survive – not that it was their fault – it is just that they didn't get better in spite of that brand of treatment.
>
> They were extremely against using medication except as a last resort and I saw them push a friend off a low dose of Valium that I think caused him the lose of his marriage. Their resistance to using medications is sited as the reason that they are so small now.
>
> I think the people there meant well, but I sure wished they had put me on Nardil instead of talking me to death.
>
> One of the most important things of my Medicine experience is to realize that I really couldn't have changed without meds (and todays meds are really quite crude) and I felt a relief of guilt for being who I am, yet sadness for having missed most of life.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by paulk on November 25, 2003, at 12:44:57

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » paulk, posted by Stavros on November 24, 2003, at 22:03:08

From what I know, they are still into psycho analysis and not really up on medications (besides really wanting someone to buy them out). Your best bet is to get connected with a teaching hospital that works with the meds (St. Louis?). The "talking cures" just don't have good numbers - if you look at objective (is he employed etc.) measurements after 5 years there is just no appreciable difference in well designed studies.

There are some ex Menninger Docs in Topeka that have smelled the coffee and started their own practices and learned all about meds.

On the other hand, if you are having problems in a relationship, arbitration sometimes helps a lot. If that is what you are looking for I would look for some one in the rational emotive branch where they correct you when you say things that aren't really true.

Let me know if you are in Topeka or KC – I can could point you at couple of Doctors there – I have also know that some internists can actually be better as there are often physical parts that they may be better in seeing the whole picture. (In the end one would really want a doctor that was Internist/endocrinologist/neurologist/psychiatrist combined.

The most important thing in picking a doctor is to realize that most (but not all) of the psychiatrists have problems themselves (that's why they went into the field – looking for an answer to their own problem) or they didn't have to balls to take a knife and cut peoples stomachs open and didn't want to do surgery. This tends to select for a rather meek type of person that won't want to try things like stimulants or MAOIs.

If you are checking out a possible doc, ask if he has any patients on an MAOI if he says no – I would keep looking as while there are risks with MAOIs to just not use them shows a lack of nerve and judgment. (I would guess that for about 10% of the patient population MAOIs are the best drug to use – nothing else comes close.)

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by Stavros on November 26, 2003, at 18:20:24

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli, posted by paulk on November 25, 2003, at 12:44:57

Paul,

The clinic has moved to TX now and I cannot imagine that they are still into psycho-anaylsis. They are recommended as a a top 5 psychiatric clinic by US news world report. I copied an explanation from their website and wanted to see if it sounds familiar to you.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/nycu/health/hosptl/rankings/specreppsyc.htm

I apprecite your suggestion but I don't live in Kansas. I am actually looking for a 2nd opinion and psychiatry is all that they do at Menneinger?

I will have to do further research on this to make sure i don't waste the $$. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving.

S

I. Understanding Mentalizing

Mentalizing refers to the spontaneous sense we have of ourselves and others as persons whose actions are based on mental states: desires, needs, feelings, reasons, beliefs and the like. Normally, when we interact with others, we automatically go beneath the surface, basing our responses on a sense of what underlies the other person's behavior, namely, an active mind and a wealth of mental experience. Thus we are natural mind readers, and mentalizing entails accurate and effective mind reading. By virtue of being human, this process of mentalizing comes so naturally to us that we easily overlook its significance. To understand psychiatric treatment; however, we must pay careful attention to mentalizing and the conditions under which this basic human capacity becomes impaired.

We mentalize in relationships with other persons, not in interactions with inanimate objects. A brick is a static object, inert and unresponsive, always behaving in the same way. A person's behavior is based on mental states that are always in dynamic flux, which makes understanding other persons (and ourselves) the most complex problem solving of which we are capable. Evolutionary biologists now argue that the reason we developed such fancy brains is the sheer complexity of making sense of each other for the sake of our cooperative--and competitive--living.

Mentalizing Explicitly & Implicitly
Sometimes we mentalize consciously. When we are puzzled about another person's actions, we may wonder, "Why was he so abrupt with me? Is he irritated because I didn't return his call right away?" And we mentalize consciously when we are puzzled by our own actions--"How could I have binged on that ice cream when I was so resolved to stick with my diet?"

The majority of our social conversations revolve around gossip, in the benign sense that we mostly talk about ourselves and others--what we are doing and why, and what they are doing and why. Mainly, we seemed to be interested in making sense of our social world and our place in it. We are busy practicing mentalizing.

But thinking and talking about what is going on in our own mind and the minds of others is only part of our mentalizing activity, perhaps just the tip of the iceberg. When we interact with others, we mentalize intuitively, just as we ride a bicycle by habit. Thus we don't just mentalize at an intellectual level; we mentalize at a gut level. When interactions go smoothly, we need not think explicitly about states of mind--our own or the other person's. We can respond automatically, mentalizing implicitly. For example, we often respond to others' emotions without thinking about it, nodding sympathetically with a concerned look on our face as we listen to a friend talking about her child's frightening accident. Another example: we naturally take turns in conversation, being sensitive to pauses and unthinkingly keeping our conversational partner's point of view in mind.

Mentalizing & Mental Health
Mentalizing is crucial to our well-being in several respects. First, mentalizing implicitly and explicitly is the basis of self-awareness and a sense of identity. Importantly, when we mentalize, we have a feeling of self-agency, being in control of our own behavior. Thus mentalizing provides us with a spontaneous sense of ownership and responsibility for our actions and our choices, rather than feeling that our behavior just "happens."

Mentalizing allows us to have an intuitive, as well as an explicit, sense of ourselves that has coherence and continuity. When all is well, we have a spontaneous sense that our different roles, attitudes, states of mind and modes of experiencing fit together coherently, like the pieces of a puzzle. We maintain a sense of continuity throughout different patterns of relating--as serious professionals, concerned parents and playful participants in friendly banter. We maintain a sense of continuity throughout different emotional states--feeling angry, elated, anxious, triumphant and vulnerable. These various experiences form a whole--a self--that we feel and believe is "me."

Second, mentalizing is the basis of meaningful, sustaining relationships. When we mentalize spontaneously, we cannot help but empathize, that is, putting ourselves in the other person's shoes and seeing things from their perspective. While empathizing, we retain self-awareness, a sense of where we are coming from. Such intuitive empathizing--with ourselves and with others--is the cornerstone of healthy relationships and ordinary human interactions. It makes possible the moment-to-moment adjustments we make effortlessly to the verbal and emotional signals we read in other people's behavior. For example, when we sense boredom, frustration or approval, we adjust our own behavior accordingly to convey our perspective and sustain the give-and-take that defines reciprocal human exchanges. Under ordinary conditions of mentalizing, we make these adjustments without much conscious reflection.

At their most fulfilling, relationships involve a meeting of minds. We feel affirmed and validated when we sense that the other person has our mind in their mind. We are not alone. We not only feel heard and understood, we feel felt. We connect through reciprocal mentalizing, when we are thinking explicitly about each other or, more often, when we are interacting intuitively, by feel.

Third, mentalizing is the key to self-regulation and self-direction. Mentalizing allows us to develop a sense of self that includes a sense of coherence, continuity and responsibility for our choices and behavior. At the same time, mentalizing makes possible our engagement in reciprocal, sustaining relationships. By integrating a sense of self and a sense of connections with others, mentalizing enables us to manage losses and trauma, as well as distressing feelings such as frustration, anger, sadness, anxiety, shame and guilt. Mentalizing, we manage these feelings without resorting to automatic fight-or-flight responses or efforts to cope that are ultimately self-destructive or maladaptive. Instead, coping and self-regulating responses based on mentalizing preserve flexibility and choice. They give us the tools to set goals for ourselves, to define the steps we need to take to achieve our goals and to imagine ourselves as the person we want to become. From these capacities we generate the two most basic protective experiences human beings can produce: meaning and hope.

Our focus on mentalizing in psychiatric treatment is based on a growing body of evidence that points to mentalizing as the key to resilience--the ability to adapt successfully to adversity, challenges and stress. By promoting resilience, mentalizing facilitates coping with vulnerabilities, including the genetic vulnerability to psychiatric disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders and addictive disorders. Research is demonstrating, for example, that persons who can mentalize in the face of trauma--including childhood trauma--are less vulnerable to psychiatric disorders. Research is also demonstrating that adjustment and quality of life of people with various psychiatric disorders is ultimately determined by abilities that result from mentalizing.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » Stavros

Posted by paulk on November 29, 2003, at 20:25:57

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli, posted by Stavros on November 26, 2003, at 18:20:24


> The clinic has moved to TX now and I cannot imagine that they are still into psycho-anaylsis. They are recommended as a a top 5 psychiatric clinic by US news world report. I copied an explanation from their website and wanted to see if it sounds familiar to you.
>

Sure sounds like more Psycho-babble to me.

Understanding a problem will not make it go away.

Talking cures don't work according to 5 year follow up studies.

If you want to sell books take an old theory and wrap it in new jargon and call it a new therapy.

I would advise finding people who are up in the latest of Psyc-drugs – I saw nothing on their site that shows they have changed their ways. I wasted not only a HUGE sum of money, I wasted several years of effort that would have been better used taking a MAOI and focusing on school instead of my navel.

To put it even more bluntly – they had a habit of taking credit for a patients success, but never anyones failure. I happen to have known several patients who lost their life, that IMHO may have lived, if they had gotten an antidepressant instead of psychotherapy.

I remember one girl that was in-patient there for over a year before an outside doctor finally figured out she was very hypo thyroid – once on Thyroid medicine she was transformed – they claimed credit instead of taking responsibility for failing to properly screen for physically based disease.

I myself was an in-patient for 3 weeks before they even did a physical.

They moved to Texas because they failed in the market place – people know that the drugs work – some of the time on some people – and most people have figured out that the “talking cure”, however well meaning, fails to be anything other than “supportive”.

I can not recommend them – I would also point out that you want to use objective criteria on evaluating any therapy – Even the drug studies should be taken as a grain of salt as they are 6 week studies – I don't know anyone that really needs drugs that takes them for such a short time and we really need long term studies that show what happens 5 years later.


 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » paulk

Posted by Stavros on November 30, 2003, at 1:50:49

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » Stavros, posted by paulk on November 29, 2003, at 20:25:57

Paul, Thanks fo ryour response, The last thing i want to do is wast money and it sounds as though that is not going to be an option for me. I live in a large cite and have great docs but feel that I am not understood at all? I hurt so badly and need something or someone to understand me. no one gets me and i thought after a week long eval, that the issues would be flushed out. God help me and thanks again for your post

Stavro
> > The clinic has moved to TX now and I cannot imagine that they are still into psycho-anaylsis. They are recommended as a a top 5 psychiatric clinic by US news world report. I copied an explanation from their website and wanted to see if it sounds familiar to you.
> >
>
> Sure sounds like more Psycho-babble to me.
>
> Understanding a problem will not make it go away.
>
> Talking cures don't work according to 5 year follow up studies.
>
> If you want to sell books take an old theory and wrap it in new jargon and call it a new therapy.
>
> I would advise finding people who are up in the latest of Psyc-drugs – I saw nothing on their site that shows they have changed their ways. I wasted not only a HUGE sum of money, I wasted several years of effort that would have been better used taking a MAOI and focusing on school instead of my navel.
>
> To put it even more bluntly – they had a habit of taking credit for a patients success, but never anyones failure. I happen to have known several patients who lost their life, that IMHO may have lived, if they had gotten an antidepressant instead of psychotherapy.
>
> I remember one girl that was in-patient there for over a year before an outside doctor finally figured out she was very hypo thyroid – once on Thyroid medicine she was transformed – they claimed credit instead of taking responsibility for failing to properly screen for physically based disease.
>
> I myself was an in-patient for 3 weeks before they even did a physical.
>
> They moved to Texas because they failed in the market place – people know that the drugs work – some of the time on some people – and most people have figured out that the “talking cure”, however well meaning, fails to be anything other than “supportive”.
>
> I can not recommend them – I would also point out that you want to use objective criteria on evaluating any therapy – Even the drug studies should be taken as a grain of salt as they are 6 week studies – I don't know anyone that really needs drugs that takes them for such a short time and we really need long term studies that show what happens 5 years later.
>
>
>

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » Stavros

Posted by Elle2021 on November 30, 2003, at 9:48:41

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » paulk, posted by Stavros on November 30, 2003, at 1:50:49

Hi Stavros,
I would like to continue our chat about OCD over in Psychological Babble, but only if you want to. And I posted you a note on the Faith board.
Elle

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by paulk on November 30, 2003, at 16:47:25

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli » paulk, posted by Stavros on November 30, 2003, at 1:50:49

>I hurt so badly and need something or someone to understand me. no one gets me and i thought after a week long eval, that the issues would be flushed out.

This may be hard to hear, but as someone who has also been there: A doctor that "really understands you" may not be what is best for you. A doctor that relates too closely, may not have the best judgment. On the other hand if he is telling you just to tough-it-out, he may not understand how much you are hurting.

I'm guessing that you have depression of some sort – Taking an anti depressant is not giving up and may be protective of your nervous system.

And I found that during the time I was on an antidepressant that I was able to figure out things that I failed to flush out over decades of psychotherapy in just the first couple of months of the right drug. There was even a strange time when memories came back that I had not thought of for decades and I was finally dealing with them. I did much more in those first months on Nardil than so many years of intensive psychotherapy. I now take a lower dose and do well except for some problems that may have more to do with getting old than anything else.

There isn't a good drug for everyone, but you shouldn't just sit around hurting. There is some evidence that toughing it out will cause damage to you in the long run. (On the other hand, sometimes Benzos will keep you from growing). If you are depressed, find a doctor ASAP and try some meds – the first one may well not work, but after trying a few you may find one that helps you. I think, for me that the MAOI (Nardil) actually helped me heal some over the years – I have heard others say the same thing about some of the SSRI(Prozac like drugs). There is no way (at this time) to know which med will work with out trying them.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by Derek Sudonim on January 5, 2004, at 23:46:02

In reply to Anyone have any experience with Menninger (clinic), posted by Stavros on November 20, 2003, at 18:28:24

Yes I was an inpatient there some years ago and had a positive experience there. I viewed it as my last card to play--no other therapy had helped me. Menninger's was life-changing for me. I cannot say the same for some, but many others were helped also. Basically, in all therapies, you need a counselor you can trust, who you can believe believes in you, and accepts you for who you are. I found such a therapist at Menninger's. Menninger's was tremendously expensive, and I'm sorry to all those who need help sorely and cannot afford it. I could not have done so if it were not for a good health insurance plan at the time. Yet, ironically, it was not the sophisticated treatment plan that helped me, but simply having a personal counselor who acccepted me unconditionally. That is the key--someone you can trust who you can feel accepts you as you are, but at the same time has your future health and life at heart. I am indebted to my therapist for my life. Several other nurses were helpful to me, too. It is possible you can find such a therapist somewhere other than Menninger's. My therapist at Menninger's did not have an elaborate education--he was basically a social worker with a Master's degree trained in psychotherapy, and not a psychologist or psychiatrist--and yet that was the kind of therapist that helped me the most; simply a man who was willing to listen to me, empathize, and support me until I could develop the kinds of inner supports I needed. A friend, really.

Whatever you decide, make sure it is your decision, not just you trying to please someone else. Then, if you go, try to find a counselor there you can trust. You'll have a huge team of people helping you, but your personal therapist will be the most important person.

I will never forget my therapist, and am thankful for my life for my experience at Menninger's. My last card was a lucky one.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by stavros on January 6, 2004, at 0:06:53

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli, posted by Derek Sudonim on January 5, 2004, at 23:46:02

Derek,

Thanks for your response. I have had several therapist over the last 10 years and have liked and trusted several from social worker to psyD. I like the one i am seeing now but i must have very deep seated issues. I trust him but I am so desperate to get this thing off my mind. I am going to start a more spiritual emphasis this year. Your post was the first positive I have heard about Menninger. I loath freudian thinking as I wasted 10K$ on 3 months of intestive therapy. Are they still from the Freud school of thought? I would love to owe my life or whats left of it to a therapist. I know it's in me but I cannot get to it? Every day i am one step away from wanting to end it all. I wish you well and thanks again

S

> Yes I was an inpatient there some years ago and had a positive experience there. I viewed it as my last card to play--no other therapy had helped me. Menninger's was life-changing for me. I cannot say the same for some, but many others were helped also. Basically, in all therapies, you need a counselor you can trust, who you can believe believes in you, and accepts you for who you are. I found such a therapist at Menninger's. Menninger's was tremendously expensive, and I'm sorry to all those who need help sorely and cannot afford it. I could not have done so if it were not for a good health insurance plan at the time. Yet, ironically, it was not the sophisticated treatment plan that helped me, but simply having a personal counselor who acccepted me unconditionally. That is the key--someone you can trust who you can feel accepts you as you are, but at the same time has your future health and life at heart. I am indebted to my therapist for my life. Several other nurses were helpful to me, too. It is possible you can find such a therapist somewhere other than Menninger's. My therapist at Menninger's did not have an elaborate education--he was basically a social worker with a Master's degree trained in psychotherapy, and not a psychologist or psychiatrist--and yet that was the kind of therapist that helped me the most; simply a man who was willing to listen to me, empathize, and support me until I could develop the kinds of inner supports I needed. A friend, really.
>
> Whatever you decide, make sure it is your decision, not just you trying to please someone else. Then, if you go, try to find a counselor there you can trust. You'll have a huge team of people helping you, but your personal therapist will be the most important person.
>
> I will never forget my therapist, and am thankful for my life for my experience at Menninger's. My last card was a lucky one.

 

Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli

Posted by Derek Sudonim on January 9, 2004, at 12:31:55

In reply to Re: Anyone have any experience with Menninger (cli, posted by stavros on January 6, 2004, at 0:06:53

Stavros, I understand. You must hold on. Nothing is permanent, including not-so-good health or life circumstances. My depression quite immobilized me before Menninger's. Yet had I given up, as I wished to several times, I would never have experienced a later new life as I have since then. And my change has indeed been stable from that time so long ago, even though at the time I felt I would never get out of it. Menninger's was my "last card," as I said, because I felt so much in a rut for years.

Remember, as far as a "cure" goes, there's really no such thing, but rather finding new and constructive ways of dealing with things and achieving satisfaction. You should run away as fast as you can from anyone that hints or says they will "cure" you. I still get roundly depressed sometimes, but I know how to respond to it, and not let it affect my goals, life-attitude, job, family, or other relationships anymore. And, after Menninger's, I went on over the years to get a doctorate in mathematics, get married (and stay married!), and establish a nice family.

One hallmark of Menninger's while I was there, compared to other therapy situations or hospitals I had been in, was the emphasis on humane treatment of a patient. I never felt treated as though I were second-class for having a mental/emotional problem. Second, Menninger's was not just one philosophy, but rather an eclectic blend of the best ideas of several philosophies. I identified strong Freudian, Jungian, "Skinnerian," and Rogerian influences to name a very few. The "Skinnerian" was almost non-existent, thank goodness, I must emphasize, and I repeat that the humane and respectful treatment of patients was an obvious hallmark.

Again, I can only speak for myself. There are others who may criticize Menninger's soundly, but not me. As for me, the basic tenet of mental problem solution is the bottom line: a person has to want to change. Given that, you can probably use any sound therapeutic situation to help make that change. Any treatment is vicious for one whom it doesn't fit. But change really comes from inside a person, anyway. The best therapist helps you discover and create change inside yourself. Again, it's really a matter of finding new and constructive ways of dealing with things.

Well, I could speak on and on about it, I suppose! The Menninger's I knew is not the Menninger's that exists now, I might add. I was there in the late 1970's during a kind of golden age of Menninger's, in Topeka, Kansas, and they have since scaled down considerably and also moved to Houston, TX. Two things remain I expect, however--the high cost, no doubt, but the humanity and respectfulness of their employees toward patients are still probably highly valued among them.

Interestingly, I was not Christian while at Menninger's, but became so several years after leaving. There were, I believe, several Christian staff members there, looking back on things. Like any place, I'm sure there were as many or more non-believers as well. But now I can say that faith in God is primary in my life. I still use the tools I gained at Menninger's--why not?--but the deepest and more stable foundation for my life and health now come from my faith in God and Bible study.

Thanks for writing. Hope that helps. Good luck, and don't give up!


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