Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 269316

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by davpet on October 14, 2003, at 12:26:58

I know many of you have tried to lower cortisol , but have been unsuccessful . The reason you cannot lower cortisol directly is because cortisol is needed to de-activate the HPA axis , by means of the negative feedback loop , and as such the HPA axis will continue to produce more cortisol .

You could lower cortisol by taking cortisol inhibiting drugs (ketoconazole etc) and then taking synthetic cortisol (hydrocortisone) to match the the NORMAL diurnal cortisol rhythm, thus tricking your HPA axis into regulating itself as it should.

Refer to this article for more info : http://www.utmj.org/issues/77.1/pdf/Psych77-1.pdf

Disclaimer : This theory is exactly that THEORETICAL so do not attempt this unless under the supervision of an experienced medical doctor.

Ketoconazole is liver toxic in the doses required for corisol synthesis inhibition +400mg . It is thus advised that you have your liver values tested regularly if attempting this procedure . If elevated trying switching to another cortisol inhibiting drug metyrapone ; aminoglutethimide etc.

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by davpet on October 14, 2003, at 13:01:14

In reply to The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by davpet on October 14, 2003, at 12:26:58

Dysregulation of the HPA-axis is caused by glucocorticoid-receptor down-regulation . ie cortisol resistance due to overexposure of the hypothalamus to cortisol.

(For more info into this read my post "The correct way to lower CORTISOl".

"Most of the fundamental ideas of science are essentially simple and may as a rule be expressed in a language comprehensable to everyone."
-Albert Einstein, The Evolution of Physics

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by ian24 on October 14, 2003, at 16:42:37

In reply to The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by davpet on October 14, 2003, at 12:26:58

Dude be careful witht hat stuff I don't know but it sounds like scary stuff

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by jrbecker on October 15, 2003, at 15:04:07

In reply to The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by davpet on October 14, 2003, at 12:26:58

Davpet-

I know you are only trying to give some helpful advice, but the interplay of the HPA and resulting depressive symptoms are much more complicated than "lowering of cortisol," the same for CRH for that matter.

In suffering from depression, there's one thing we can all agree on, it makes us feel like sh*t.

BUT, there are a lot of different things biochemically that distinguish different subtypes of depression from each other, including the interplay of the HPA and mood. This is of course why melancholic and atypical as well as bipolar symptoms diverge so much. See the following study for more...

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/160/9/1554

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12944327&dopt=Abstract

When Not Enough Is Too Much: The Role of Insufficient Glucocorticoid Signaling in the Pathophysiology of Stress-Related Disorders

Charles L. Raison, M.D., and Andrew H. Miller, M.D.

Am J Psychiatry 160:1554-1565, September 2003

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: Previous theories have emphasized the role of excessive glucocorticoid activity in the pathology of chronic stress. Nevertheless, insufficient glucocorticoid signaling (resulting from decreased hormone bioavailability or reduced hormone sensitivity) may have equally devastating effects on bodily function. Such effects may be related in part to the role of glucocorticoids in restraining activation of the immune system and other components of the stress response, including the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) and corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH). METHOD: The literature on neuroendocrine function and glucocorticoid-relevant pathologies in stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders, including posttraumatic stress disorder and major depression, was reviewed. RESULTS: Although not occurring together, both hypocortisolism and reduced responsiveness to glucocorticoids (as determined by dexamethasone challenge tests) were reliably found. Stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders were also associated with immune system activation/inflammation, high SNS tone, and CRH hypersecretion, which are all consistent with insufficient glucocorticoid-mediated regulation of stress hyperresponsiveness. Finally, antidepressants, a mainstay in the treatment of stress-related disorders, were regularly associated with evidence of enhanced glucocorticoid signaling. CONCLUSIONS: Neuroendocrine data provide evidence of insufficient glucocorticoid signaling in stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders. Impaired feedback regulation of relevant stress responses, especially immune activation/inflammation, may, in turn, contribute to stress-related pathology, including alterations in behavior, insulin sensitivity, bone metabolism, and acquired immune responses. From an evolutionary perspective, reduced glucocorticoid signaling, whether achieved at the level of the hormone or its receptor, may foster immune readiness and increase arousal. Emphasis on insufficient glucocorticoid signaling in stress-related pathology encourages development of therapeutic strategies to enhance glucocorticoid signaling pathways.


Introduction

Overwhelming evidence confirms that prolonged stress adversely affects physical and behavioral parameters relevant to survival (1). Because a wide variety of stressors reliably activate the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, and because glucocorticoids are the end product of HPA axis activation, these hormones have been most commonly seen as the agents provocateurs, or even—in extreme cases—as the physical embodiment, of stress-induced pathology. Indeed, it has been suggested that prolonged overproduction of glucocorticoids, whether as a result of ongoing stress or a genetic predisposition to HPA axis hyperactivity, damages brain structures (especially the hippocampus) essential for HPA axis restraint (2). Such damage, in turn, has been hypothesized to lead to a feed-forward circuit in which ongoing stressors drive glucocorticoid overproduction indefinitely (the "glucocorticoid cascade hypothesis"). Because of the capacity of high concentrations of glucocorticoids to disrupt cellular functioning in ways that can lead to a host of ills, this glucocorticoid overproduction is believed to contribute directly to many of the adverse behavioral and physiological sequelae associated with chronic stress (2, 3).

Despite the popularity of the glucocorticoid cascade hypothesis, however, increasing data provide evidence that, in addition to glucocorticoid excess, insufficient glucocorticoid signaling may play a significant role in the development and expression of pathology in stress-related disorders. Indeed, since Hans Selye’s initial definition of the stress response in the 1930s (4), it has been recognized that under conditions of acute threat, glucocorticoids promote survival by mobilizing and directing bodily resources (1, 3, 5). In addition to providing short-term adaptive advantages, it is becoming increasingly appreciated that glucocorticoids also confer longer-term stress-related benefits by shaping and eventually restraining stress-related physiological processes, including early, innate immune responses (inflammation), activation of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), and stimulation of corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) pathways, all of which are capable of producing a host of adverse health outcomes if allowed to continue unabated after crisis resolution (5, 6). In contradistinction to concepts that privilege the pathological potential of glucocorticoids, this perspective suggests that because glucocorticoids constrain the very processes to which they initially contribute, conditions characterized by prolonged activation of the stress response might be especially prone to produce illness under conditions in which glucocorticoid signaling is insufficient.

If such an insufficiency of glucocorticoid signaling contributes to stress-related morbidity, one would expect to find evidence for its existence across a wide range of stress-related behavioral and physical disorders. It is the burden of this article to review the evidence for glucocorticoid insufficiency in these diseases. In the process, we will examine the possibility that unrestrained responsiveness of systems under glucocorticoid control, especially immune activation/inflammation, may, in turn, contribute to pathologies classically attributed to glucocorticoids.

We define insufficient glucocorticoid signaling as any state in which the signaling capacity of glucocorticoids is inadequate to restrain relevant stress-responsive systems, either as a result of decreased hormone bioavailability (e.g., hypocortisolism) or as a result of attenuated glucocorticoid responsiveness (e.g., secondary to reduced glucocorticoid receptor sensitivity). Thus defined, insufficient glucocorticoid signaling implies no specific mechanism or absolute deficiency but focuses instead on the end point of glucocorticoid activity. The fundamental question is whether the glucocorticoid message is getting through in a manner adequate to the environment (external and internal) in which an organism finds itself. Therefore, even in the case of glucocorticoid hypersecretion, glucocorticoid insufficiency can exist, if reduced glucocorticoid sensitivity in relevant target tissues outweighs excess circulating hormone.


HPA Axis Organization and Function: Pathways of Glucocorticoid Signaling

Figure 1 presents a simplified diagram of the HPA axis. Stressors of all sorts, both physical and psychological, activate the production and release of CRH from the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus. Acting via the portal circulation, CRH, in conjunction with arginine vasopressin, induces the pituitary to produce adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), which enters the bloodstream and causes the adrenal glands to release glucocorticoids (cortisol in humans and other primates, corticosterone in mice and rats) (7). When produced in response to stress, glucocorticoids have myriad actions on the body that are primarily mediated via intracellular receptors. In their inactive state, these receptors exist in the cytosol within a topologically complex assembly of heat shock proteins that serve to stabilize the unbound receptor (Figure 1) (8). Glucocorticoids passively diffuse through the cellular membrane and bind to these receptors, a process which in turn promotes translocation to the nucleus. Within the nucleus, these ligand-activated receptors then either interact with other transcription factors or bind to specific DNA response elements with a resultant up- or down-regulation in the expression of various genes (8).

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Figure 1. Pathways of Glucocorticoid Signalinga
aGlucocorticoid production/release from the adrenal glands is a function of upstream regulators, including corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) and arginine vasopressin (AVP) from the paraventricular nucleus (PVN) of the hypothalamus and adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) from the pituitary. Proinflammatory cytokines, such as interleukin-1 (IL-1), interleukin-6 (IL-6), and tumor necrosis factor (TNF), are also potent stimulators of CRH and thus hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis activity and glucocorticoid release. Glucocorticoids regulate their own production through negative feedback at the level of the hippocampus, hypothalamus (CRH), and pituitary (ACTH) as well as the immune system (proinflammatory cytokines). At a cellular level, access of a glucocorticoid to its receptors is determined by 1) corticosteroid binding globulin (CBG), which binds cortisol in the blood and interstitial fluids, 2) 11-ί-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11ί-HSD), which metabolizes cortisol upon entry into the cell, and 3) the multidrug resistance (MDR) pump, which extrudes cortisol from the cell. Once activated by cortisol, the glucocorticoid receptor (GR) dissociates from its chaperone heat shock protein (HSP) complex and translocates into the nucleus. Once in the nucleus, the activated glucocorticoid receptor either interacts with other transcription factors, e.g., nuclear factor (NF) NF-ί, or binds directly to DNA to influence gene transcription and ultimately production of proteins, including inhibitor of NF-ί (Iί), an anti-inflammatory factor.


Two distinct, but functionally related, intracellular receptors for glucocorticoids have been identified (8, 9). Mineralocorticoid receptors have a high affinity for naturally occurring glucocorticoids, such as cortisol and corticosterone, as well as the salt-regulating hormone aldosterone. In contrast, glucocorticoid receptors bind avidly to synthetic steroids (such as dexamethasone) but have significantly lower affinity for endogenous hormones (cortisol and corticosterone). On the basis of these affinity differences, it is believed that mineralocorticoid receptors play a primary role in mediating glucocorticoid effects under basal conditions when hormone levels are low (8, 9). As glucocorticoid levels rise, either in response to stress or as a function of the HPA circadian cycle, mineralocorticoid receptors saturate, and glucocorticoid receptors become the chief transducer of glucocorticoid activity and are thus the primary mediators of feedback inhibition of CRH (and the HPA axis) (8, 9). Because glucocorticoid receptors avidly bind dexamethasone and because most studies of HPA feedback integrity have used this synthetic glucocorticoid, e.g., in the dexamethasone suppression test (DST), far more information is available on the relationship between glucocorticoid receptor functioning and stress-related psychopathology.

When examined in the simplest terms, insufficient glucocorticoid signaling could result from decreased hormone bioavailability or decreased receptor-mediated signal transduction (which would translate into reduced hormone responsiveness). Within the HPA axis, a decrease in hormone bioavailability might stem from decreased production of upstream glucocorticoid secretagogues (CRH and ACTH), as well as from a primary deficit in adrenal hormone production and/or release. Decreased glucocorticoid bioavailability might also result from alterations in 1) binding proteins, which have been identified for both cortisol and CRH (10), 2) enzymes such as 11-ί-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which metabolize endogenous glucocorticoid hormones upon entry into the cell (11), and 3) the multidrug resistance pump, which extrudes cortisol but not corticosterone from the cell (12). As with the production of hormones, decreased receptor-mediated signal transduction might occur as a result of abnormalities at any level of the HPA axis, including CRH and ACTH receptors, in addition to glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid receptors. Receptor abnormalities might take the form of any combination of alterations in number, binding affinity, or functional capacity. Finally, it is important to note that any particular HPA axis abnormality may be a primary or a secondary adaptation to alterations elsewhere in the axis.


Neuroendocrine Changes Relevant to Insufficient Glucocorticoid Signaling

It has been suggested that a decrease in upstream secretagogues, notably CRH, may lead to inadequate glucocorticoid signaling in several neuropsychiatric disorders, including atypical depression (13), fibromyalgia (14), and chronic fatigue syndrome (15). Nevertheless, the most commonly reported neuroendocrine changes that might contribute to insufficient glucocorticoid signaling are reduced production and/or release of glucocorticoids (hypocortisolism) and reduced glucocorticoid responsiveness.

Hypocortisolism
As early as the 1960s, researchers noted that medically healthy people living in conditions of chronic stress frequently exhibited lower urinary and plasma cortisol concentrations than matched comparison subjects, with cortisol concentrations decreasing further during periods of heightened stress (16). Decreased plasma, salivary, and urinary cortisol concentrations have also been reported in subjects suffering from posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), whether the syndrome developed as a result of combat exposure or a natural disaster, such as an earthquake, or following sexual and/or physical abuse in childhood (17). Of note, several studies indicate that individuals who demonstrate low cortisol levels after an acute trauma, such as a motor vehicle accident, are at higher risk of subsequently developing PTSD symptoms (18). Relevant to this finding is the observation that patients who receive stress-level doses of hydrocortisone as part of their treatment while in a medical intensive care unit (ICU) have lower rates of ICU-related PTSD symptoms (19). Taken together, these data support the notion that glucocorticoids protect against the development of certain stress-related disorders.

Work by our group (20, 21) has shown that women with a history of early life stress (childhood abuse), without current major depression, also exhibit reduced basal plasma cortisol concentrations and produce less cortisol in response to an ACTH challenge compared to women without a history of childhood abuse. Interestingly, these women exhibit exaggerated ACTH responses to either a psychosocial stressor or CRH, suggesting that hypocortisolism in these subjects represents an end organ (adrenal gland) adaptation to a sensitized (exaggerated) response to stress at the level of the pituitary and/or the hypothalamus (CRH).

Chronic disorders characterized by fatigue and pain, including chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, may also be accompanied by reduced production and/or release of glucocorticoids (22, 23). It is interesting that these disorders have been associated with high rates of trauma and chronic victimization, as well as PTSD symptoms (24, 25). Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome have been found to exhibit decreased 24-hour urinary and plasma cortisol concentrations and decreased adrenal responses to maximal- and medium-dose ACTH stimulation (23). Fibromyalgia has likewise been associated with decreased urinary cortisol levels and with decreased cortisol production after CRH challenge or a brief physical stressor (22, 26). Reduced morning cortisol levels also have been reported in idiopathic pain syndromes, and decreased cortisol production in response to CRH has been found in patients with chronic pelvic pain (24).

Reduced Responsiveness to Glucocorticoids
Reduced glucocorticoid responsiveness represents another major pathway that may contribute to insufficient glucocorticoid signaling. Perhaps the most compelling example of a stress-related disorder with evidence of reduced glucocorticoid responsiveness is major depression. Numerous studies over the past four decades have repeatedly shown that, as a group, patients with major depression have reduced responses to glucocorticoids as assessed both in vivo and in vitro (8, 27). The DST and its new and improved version, the dexamethasone-CRH stimulation test, are the two in vivo tests that have received the most attention. Rates of impaired glucocorticoid responsiveness during major depression (as assessed by nonsuppression of cortisol on the DST or dexamethasone-CRH test) vary from approximately 25% to 80% (27), depending on depressive symptoms (the highest rates are found for melancholic, or endogenous, subtypes) (28), age (older subjects are more likely to exhibit nonsuppression), and the technique used for assessment (the dexamethasone-CRH test is more sensitive than the DST) (27, 29). Of note, both the DST and the dexamethasone-CRH test have been shown to powerfully predict clinical response (30, 31), and in the case of the dexamethasone-CRH test, there is evidence that impaired glucocorticoid responsiveness represents a genetically based risk factor for the development of depression (32).

Complementing in vivo findings, results of in vitro studies have demonstrated that peripheral immune cells from patients with major depression exhibit decreased sensitivity to the well-known immunosuppressive effects of glucocorticoids (8). Whereas normal subjects show a marked inhibition of in vitro natural killer (NK) cell activity, lymphocyte proliferation, or cytokine production after exposure to a glucocorticoid (usually dexamethasone), patients with major depression, especially DST nonsuppressors, consistently show an attenuated inhibitory response (33–36). It should be noted that in vitro studies obviate concerns that abnormalities in the DST and dexamethasone-CRH test solely reflect reduced dexamethasone bioavailability (secondary to increased dexamethasone clearance) or increased hypothalamic drive.

Since dexamethasone binds avidly to the glucocorticoid receptor, dexamethasone nonsuppression during major depression provides evidence of impaired glucocorticoid receptor signaling. Consistent with this notion, transgenic mice whose glucocorticoid receptor has been genetically reduced by 30%–50% require 10-fold higher doses of dexamethasone to suppress both basal and CRH-stimulated corticosterone release (37). However, we know of no data demonstrating that the structural integrity of the glucocorticoid receptor itself is altered in depressed patients (8, 27). Nevertheless, several lines of evidence suggest that alterations in neurotransmitter-linked signal transduction pathways that regulate glucocorticoid receptor function may contribute to diminished glucocorticoid receptor signaling in major depression (8, 27). Indeed, altered glucocorticoid receptor signaling has been proposed as a major factor in the pathogenesis of the disorder (8, 27).


Glucocorticoid Tone in Stress-Related Disorders: Is the Message Getting Through?

We have provided evidence that stress-related disorders are characterized by neuroendocrine changes that bespeak insufficient glucocorticoid signaling. However, decreased hormone production (e.g., hypocortisolism) or decreased glucocorticoid responsiveness (e.g., dexamethasone nonsuppression) can be counterbalanced by adaptive changes that attempt to normalize glucocorticoid signaling. Consistent with this notion, Yehuda and colleagues have demonstrated up-regulation of glucocorticoid receptors and increased sensitivity to dexamethasone in patients with PTSD (who exhibit hypocortisolism) (17). Moreover, glucocorticoid hypersecretion is a common and reliable finding in patients with major depression (8), occurring in conjunction with reduced glucocorticoid responsiveness (dexamethasone nonsuppression) approximately 60% of the time (38).

One approach to resolving the question of whether too much or too little glucocorticoid signal ultimately "gets through" is to examine target tissues or systems whose function is regulated in part by glucocorticoids. In effect, such tissues and/or systems provide a naturalistic assay to evaluate whether overall neuroendocrine changes are more consistent with an excess or insufficiency of glucocorticoid tone. A related approach is to examine pathologies that typify stress-related disorders and determine whether these pathologies are consistent with glucocorticoid excess or insufficiency. Finally, treatments that are known to be effective for stress-related disorders (i.e., antidepressants) can be evaluated in terms of their impact on glucocorticoid signaling pathways. Each of these approaches will be considered.

Target Systems Regulated by Glucocorticoids
Immune system
A critical function of glucocorticoids is to mobilize and shape immune responses during stress (6). Virtually all stressors, including infections, physical trauma, and even psychological insults, are associated with immune activation and the release of proinflammatory cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha) and interleukin-1 (IL-1) and interleukin-6 (IL-6) (39). Through their inhibitory effects on nuclear factor ί signaling pathways, glucocorticoids are the most potent anti-inflammatory hormones in the body and thereby serve to suppress the production and activity of proinflammatory cytokines during stressor exposure and return the organism back to baseline (homeostasis) after cessation of the stressor (6, 40, 41). Indeed, in the absence of glucocorticoids, animals quickly succumb to the ravages of the inflammatory response (41).

Consistent with inadequate glucocorticoid-mediated feedback inhibition of immune responses, evidence of immune activation (early, innate immune responses, in particular) has been reported in a number of stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders. Best characterized in this regard is major depression. The inflammatory changes reported include increased levels of acute-phase reactants, increased plasma and CNS concentrations of proinflammatory cytokines (especially IL-1 in CNS and IL-6 in plasma), increased levels of prostaglandins, and an increase in stimulated in vitro peripheral blood monocyte production of proinflammatory cytokines (42). Of note, increased concentrations of plasma IL-6 have been found to positively correlate with post-DST cortisol levels (36), suggesting that DST nonsuppression identifies a group of depressed subjects most likely to demonstrate immune activation. In addition, depression has been shown to predict exacerbations in diseases with an inflammatory component, including both rheumatoid arthritis (43) and multiple sclerosis (44).

Immune activation has also been reported in stress-related disorders characterized by decreased cortisol production (i.e., hypocortisolism), supporting the contention that overall glucocorticoid signaling capacity, or tone, is decreased in these disorders, despite evidence for increased receptor sensitivity (in PTSD). These disorders include PTSD, chronic fatigue syndrome, and fibromyalgia. For example, serum concentrations of IL-1-ί and CSF levels of IL-6 have been found to be elevated in patients with combat-induced PTSD (45), and serum concentrations of both IL-6 and its soluble receptor have been found to be elevated in patients with PTSD secondary to civilian trauma (46). Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia have also exhibited immune activation, as evidenced by increased plasma concentrations of acute-phase reactants and increased plasma concentrations, and/or peripheral blood mononuclear cell production, of proinflammatory cytokines, including IL-6, TNF-alpha, and IL-1 (47–50).

Unlike immune activation, which is consistent with glucocorticoid insufficiency, the impairments in T cell proliferation and NK cell activity frequently reported in stress-related disorders (especially major depression) might be accounted for by either excessive or insufficient glucocorticoid signaling. Glucocorticoids are well known to suppress multiple aspects of lymphocyte function; however, several studies of patients with major depression have failed to show a relationship between altered T cell responses or NK cell activity and plasma or urinary concentrations of free cortisol (34, 51). Proinflammatory cytokines are also capable of disrupting T cell signaling pathways and inhibiting NK cell activity (52, 53), thereby providing a potential link between insufficient glucocorticoid signaling, immune activation, and reduced lymphocyte responsiveness. Indeed, mice with impaired glucocorticoid receptor function exhibit reduced T cell responses secondary to chronic activation of nitric oxide pathways (54). Nevertheless, we know of no studies in which an attempt was made to correlate low T cell proliferation or NK cell activity with proinflammatory cytokine production in the context of major depression.

SNS
Glucocorticoids play an important role in the regulation of the SNS. In addition to subserving permissive effects on relevant synthetic enzymes and receptors for catecholamines, endogenous glucocorticoids have been shown to restrain SNS responses under resting conditions and after stress (55). Administration of high concentrations of glucocorticoids to laboratory animals has been found to inhibit, enhance, or have no effect on SNS activity (55, 56). In humans, however, high concentrations of glucocorticoids are more reliably associated with reduced SNS responses (57–59). For example, short-term (1-week) administration of glucocorticoids to normal volunteers has been shown to reduce sympathetic nerve activity and diminish circulating concentrations of norepinephrine (59). In addition, in Cushing’s disease (a condition of chronic glucocorticoid exposure), a negative relationship has been found between concentrations of urinary free cortisol and plasma norepinephrine, both under resting conditions and after orthostatic challenge (58).

Consistent with evidence of glucocorticoid insufficiency in stress-related disorders is the association of both major depression and PTSD with increased CSF and plasma concentrations of catecholamines and their metabolites (60–62). Moreover, in contrast to patients with Cushing’s disease, patients with major depression have been found to exhibit a positive relationship between postdexamethasone concentrations of cortisol and plasma catecholamine concentrations, further suggesting that cortisol elevations following dexamethasone reflect insufficient glucocorticoid signaling in this disorder (63). In patients who develop PTSD, reduced cortisol levels at the time of trauma have been posited to contribute to exaggerated catecholaminergic responses and increased arousal and anxiety symptoms (64, 65). Finally, exaggerated SNS responses may contribute to increased proinflammatory cytokine production that exacerbates pathology in peripheral tissues, including the heart (66).

CRH
As indicated in Figure 1, glucocorticoids are well known to inhibit CRH activity in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (7). Indeed, postmortem samples from patients treated with glucocorticoids exhibit marked reductions in the expression of CRH in hypothalamic neurons (67). Consistent with insufficient glucocorticoid regulation of CRH function in stress-related disorders, hyperactivity of CRH pathways has been observed in PTSD, as well as major depression (despite increased levels of circulating glucocorticoids). For example, investigators have found increased CRH mRNA and protein levels in the paraventricular nucleus of postmortem brain samples from patients with major depression (68). Moreover, depressed patients have been shown to exhibit increased concentrations of CRH in CSF (69). Similar changes in CRH activity, including increased CSF CRH concentrations, have been described for patients with PTSD (70). Because CRH has behavioral effects in animals that include alterations in activity, appetite, and sleep, it has been suggested that CRH hypersecretion in stress-related diseases might contribute to the behavioral alterations in these disorders (7).

Stress-Related Pathologies and the Role of Glucocorticoids
A number of pathologies associated with stress have been attributed to glucocorticoid excess, including volumetric changes in the brain, insulin resistance and/or diabetes, and osteoporosis. However, in each case, the data are correlative in nature, and we know of no studies that have directly tested the role of glucocorticoids (e.g., by antagonizing glucocorticoids and reversing the pathological changes). Moreover, each of these pathologies can be caused by consequences of insufficient glucocorticoid signaling, especially immune activation and inflammation (Table 1).


Volumetric changes in the brain
A central tenet of the glucocorticoid cascade hypothesis is that glucocorticoid excess results in damage to key brain structures involved in HPA axis restraint, including, most notably, the hippocampus (2). Consistent with this hypothesis, volume reductions in the hippocampus and other brain regions, as determined by magnetic resonance imaging, have been described in both PTSD (71) and major depression (72). However, postmortem brain specimens from depressed patients have failed to reveal significant pathology in the hippocampus at the cellular level, including hippocampal areas at putative high risk for glucocorticoid-mediated damage (73, 74). Moreover, work in rhesus monkeys suggests that glucocorticoid receptor expression in primates may dramatically differ from that in rats (75), the species from which the glucocorticoid cascade hypothesis was initially derived.

Unlike the hippocampus, the frontal cortex of patients with major depression has been found to exhibit neuropathologic abnormalities, including loss of neuronal elements, especially glia (76). These changes could result from either glucocorticoid excess or insufficiency. In support of processes linked to insufficient glucocorticoid signaling, unrestrained inflammation and increased release of proinflammatory cytokines have been shown to influence cell survival in the CNS (77, 78). For example, inflammatory cytokines (especially IL-1) are well known to contribute to cell death (neurons and glia) after multiple types of CNS trauma (77). Even in the absence of trauma, administration of IL-1 in the striatum has been shown to lead to widespread cell loss in the frontal cortex when coadministered with glutamate agonists (77). Similarly, TNF-alpha is neurotoxic to primary cultures of septohippocampal cells and leads to apoptotic death in primary cortical neurons (77). Moreover, recent data (78) indicate that rodents treated with the antiglucocorticoid RU486 exhibit dramatic increases in TNF-alpha-mediated neurodegeneration that is dependent on activation of neurotoxic pathways involving both nitric oxide and caspase. These data emphasize the fundamental role played by glucocorticoids in protecting the brain during immune activation/inflammation (78). Finally, it should be noted that unrestrained release of CRH secondary to insufficient glucocorticoid-mediated feedback inhibition may also contribute to neuronal degeneration (79).

Insulin resistance and diabetes
Given the well-known capacity of glucocorticoids to influence glucose metabolism, a link between stress-related disorders, glucocorticoids, and insulin resistance (with its attendant hyperglycemia, dyslipidemia, hypertension, and abdominal obesity) has been proposed, although not established (80). For example, patients with major depression have been noted to exhibit insulin intolerance (81), and major depression has been associated with a worse outcome in diabetic patients (82). However, we know of no study that has directly linked these findings to glucocorticoid excess (83). Moreover, although patients with major depression have been shown to exhibit a greater waist-to-hip ratio (an indicator of abdominal obesity), a relationship between greater waist-to-hip ratio and excessive glucocorticoid activity in major depression has not been demonstrated as far as we know (84–86). Of note, in studies on individuals without psychiatric disorders, a higher body mass index and waist-to-hip ratio have been associated with both increased and decreased secretion of cortisol (87). Moreover, in a well-controlled study on middle-aged men with a high body mass index, men with a higher waist-to-hip ratio exhibited reduced, rather than enhanced, glucocorticoid responses after exposure to either a laboratory stressor or CRH; this finding is consistent with evidence of insufficient glucocorticoid signaling (88).

As a result of insufficient glucocorticoid signaling, release of inflammatory elements from glucocorticoid-mediated inhibitory control may contribute to altered glucose metabolism in stress-related disorders. A number of studies have demonstrated that proinflammatory cytokines, including TNF-alpha and IL-6, are associated with insulin resistance, diabetes, and obesity (89–91). Moreover, patients with inflammatory disorders, including rheumatoid arthritis, exhibit increased rates of insulin resistance (92). The mechanism of these effects is believed to be related in part to TNF-alpha-mediated inhibition of insulin receptor tyrosine kinase activity, as well as inhibition of genes required for insulin signaling and glucose transport (93). A recent study in rodents indicates that obesity- and diet-induced insulin resistance, along with elevated levels of triglycerides and free fatty acids, can be reversed by treatment with anti-inflammatory agents or genetic disruption of inflammatory signaling pathways (94). Of special relevance to the role of glucocorticoid signaling are data indicating that fat cell production of IL-6, a major determinant of circulating IL-6 levels in obese subjects, is negatively regulated by glucocorticoids (95).

Osteoporosis
Stress-related disorders—especially major depression—have been associated with osteoporosis (96, 97). Given the inhibitory effects of glucocorticoids on bone metabolism, osteoporosis has been considered evidence of increased glucocorticoid activity in stress-related disorders (97). Nevertheless, limited data are available that correlate cortisol levels with bone mineralization. Although one study (98) showed an inverse relationship between plasma cortisol level and bone mineral density in depressed patients, at least two studies (96, 99) have failed to replicate this finding.

It should be noted, however, that pathways linked to insufficient glucocorticoid signaling and unrestrained inflammation could also contribute to the development of osteoporosis. For example, the proinflammatory cytokine IL-6 (levels of which are elevated in major depression and PTSD) is a potent antagonist of bone formation and is believed to be one of the major mediators of bone loss in postmenopausal women (100). However, as is the case with cortisol, studies have not established a clear link between plasma concentrations of proinflammatory cytokines and depression-related bone loss (96).

Behavioral alterations
Given evidence for an association between glucocorticoid insufficiency and immune activation, the question arises as to whether proinflammatory cytokines can contribute to neuropsychiatric and physical symptoms associated with stress-related disorders, including symptoms traditionally ascribed to glucocorticoids. In this regard, proinflammatory cytokines have been shown to induce a syndrome of "sickness behavior" (101). This syndrome, which includes anhedonia, anorexia, fatigue, sleep alterations, and cognitive dysfunction, has many features that overlap with stress-related neuropsychiatric and physical disorders, including major depression, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and PTSD.

Both cytokines and their receptors are found in brain regions that are centrally involved in the mediation of emotion and behavior, such as the hypothalamus and hippocampus (102). Blocking these cytokines has been shown to attenuate or abolish symptoms of sickness behavior after infection or cytokine administration in laboratory animals (103). Relevant to the pathophysiology of behavioral changes in stress-related disorders are the findings that proinflammatory cytokines are potent stimulators of CRH in multiple brain regions and that they influence monoamine neurotransmitter turnover in the hypothalamus and hippocampus (39, 101). Proinflammatory cytokines can also lead to hyperalgesia and have been implicated as major contributors to chronic pain symptoms, which commonly accompany stress-related disorders (104).

Glucocorticoid signaling
Several lines of evidence suggest that cytokines may also contribute directly to insufficient glucocorticoid signaling by diminishing glucocorticoid receptor functional capacity. Administration of cytokines in vivo and in vitro has been shown to reduce both glucocorticoid receptor number and function (105, 106). Mechanisms by which cytokines may alter glucocorticoid receptor activity include inhibition of glucocorticoid receptor translocation from cytoplasm to nucleus (106), induction of inert isoforms of the glucocorticoid receptor (glucocorticoid receptor ί) (107), and activation of mitogen-activated protein kinase signaling pathways that in turn inhibit glucocorticoid receptor activity (105, 106). These findings make plausible a scenario in which glucocorticoid insufficiency contributes to unrestrained cytokine release, which in turn further impairs glucocorticoid receptor functioning, leading to a feed-forward inflammatory cascade (Figure 2).


Figure 2. Relation of Insufficient Glucocorticoid Signaling to Stress-Related Disordersa
aFrom environmental challenges (stress), genetic predisposition, and the influence of interacting systems, including neurotransmitter systems and the endocrine system, insufficient glucocorticoid signaling arises, manifested most commonly as either hypocortisolism or impaired glucocorticoid responsiveness. Inadequate glucocorticoid activity, in turn, releases stress-responsive systems, including the immune system (especially early innate immune responses), the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), and corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), from inhibitory control, leading to unrestrained stress hyperreactivity. The resultant increased release of proinflammatory cytokines, catecholamines, and CRH leads to health consequences relevant to behavior, CNS function, metabolism, and immune function. Immune activation and cytokine release lead to further impairment in glucocorticoid signaling (feed-forward cascade) through direct inhibitory effects on glucocorticoid receptor function.


Effects of Antidepressants on Glucocorticoid Signaling

Antidepressants are a front-line treatment for stress-related disorders, including both PTSD and major depression. Successful antidepressant treatment is associated with normalization of altered glucocorticoid-mediated inhibitory feedback in patients with major depression, as assessed by either the DST or dexamethasone-CRH stimulation test (8, 27, 31). Similarly, long-term antidepressant treatment for patients with major depression restores appropriate glucocorticoid inhibitory control of immune cell function, as assessed in vitro (8, 27).

In support of the notion that antidepressant effects on neuroendocrine function are related to enhancement of glucocorticoid signaling, a number of animal studies have demonstrated that long-term antidepressant administration increases both the number and functional capacity of corticosteroid receptors in brain regions known to be of key importance in HPA axis regulation, including the hippocampus and hypothalamus (8, 27). This effect has been observed most consistently with tricyclic antidepressants, although other agents and somatic treatments have been shown to increase glucocorticoid receptor expression and/or function in the brain (8, 27). Preclinical data also demonstrate that long-term antidepressant administration reverses HPA axis alterations that result from glucocorticoid receptor dysfunction (8, 27). For example, in transgenic mice with diminished CNS glucocorticoid receptors, long-term treatment with amitriptyline has been shown to reverse baseline DST nonsuppression, while at the same time correcting species-typical behavioral abnormalities that are reminiscent of those seen in human depression (27).

Regarding the cellular mechanisms of these effects, in vitro experiments have demonstrated that antidepressants are capable of translocating the glucocorticoid receptor from cytoplasm to nucleus, even in the absence of glucocorticoids (108). Antidepressants also enhance dexamethasone-induced gene transcription mediated by the glucocorticoid receptor (8, 27, 108). These antidepressant effects may be related to the impact of these drugs on second messenger pathways involved in glucocorticoid receptor regulation, including activation of the cyclic adenosine monophosphate/protein kinase A (cAMP/PKA) cascade (109). Activation of both cAMP and PKA has been shown, in turn, to enhance glucocorticoid receptor functioning (8, 27, 110, 111).

Finally, glucocorticoid agonists and antagonists (including glucocorticoid synthesis inhibitors) have been used to treat stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders, in particular major depression. Indeed, on the basis of theories that excessive glucocorticoid activity plays an integral role in the pathophysiology of major depression, several clinical studies using glucocorticoid antagonists, including RU486, are under way. Both types of treatments (glucocorticoid agonists and antagonists) have shown some efficacy in relatively limited clinical trials (112, 113). Nevertheless, on the basis of these data alone, it is difficult to conclude whether the results provide support for the pathophysiologic relevance of excessive and/or insufficient glucocorticoid signaling.


Glucocorticoid Insufficiency and Adaptation: In Search of Evolutionary Causation

In evaluating the hypothesis of glucocorticoid insufficiency, it is of interest to explore potential adaptive reasons for development and maintenance of pathways for insufficient glucocorticoid signaling in the mammalian gene pool.

Although autoimmunity remains an ongoing risk whenever the immune system is activated, prolonged or repeated exposure to immune stimuli might predispose an individual to reduced glucocorticoid signaling as a means of freeing bodily defenses from inhibitory control in the face of an ongoing infectious threat. Such a release of inflammatory processes might be adaptive under conditions in which recurrent infection is likely and immune readiness is an attendant requirement.

On the basis of recent work using a social disruption paradigm in rodents, Avitsur and colleagues (114) have proposed an evolutionary explanation for stress-related reduced responsiveness to glucocorticoids (glucocorticoid resistance). These investigators observed that defeated, but not victorious, rats demonstrated decreased immune system sensitivity to glucocorticoid-mediated inhibition. Closer examination revealed that development of glucocorticoid resistance correlated with assumption of a subordinate behavioral profile after defeat and with the number of wounds received in fighting with aggressive intruder mice. Avitsur et al. proposed that because the submissive behavioral profile is associated with more wounds, the development of glucocorticoid resistance may be an adaptive mechanism that allows inflammatory healing to occur in the context of stress-related increases in glucocorticoids. In this regard, it is interesting to speculate that across phylogenetic development, the risk of being wounded by conspecifics in hierarchical groups may have led to a condition for subordinate animals in which overall survival was favored by promotion of rapid, nonspecific immunity at the expense of more slowly developing specific immunity. Such rapidly deployed nonspecific, or innate, immunity is favored by proinflammatory cytokines, which also (especially TNF-alpha) paradoxically suppress the development of specific (acquired) immune responses, including, most notably, T cell responses such as T cell proliferation (suppressed in major depression) and T cell receptor signaling (53).

In addition to effects on the immune system, reduced glucocorticoid signaling (whether achieved at the level of the hormone or its receptor) may also promote nervous system states that benefit successful adaptation to chronically stressful situations. For example, given the well-established role of noradrenergic pathways in memory consolidation for emotionally laden experiences, enhanced noradrenergic function (as a result of reduced glucocorticoid-mediated restraint) might increase arousal and facilitate both memory formation and subsequent avoidance of potentially hostile environments (65).

Summary

Previous theories of stress-related pathologies have privileged the pathological potential of glucocorticoids. Herein we document that, in a number of instances, stress-related neuropsychiatric disorders may be characterized by insufficient glucocorticoid signaling as manifested by hypocortisolism or impaired glucocorticoid responsiveness associated with evidence of immune activation/inflammation, increased SNS tone, and hypersecretion of CRH. Hyperactivity of these stress-responsive systems, especially inflammation, in turn, may contribute to the behavioral features of these disorders, including depressed mood, anhedonia, fatigue, pain, and cognitive dysfunction, as well as the neurobiological, metabolic, and immunologic consequences of stress. On the basis of these data, the significance of stress-related insufficiency in glucocorticoid signaling, in terms of both adaptation and disease, is emphasized. Treatment implications center on approaches to enhancing glucocorticoid signaling pathways.

Footnotes

Received Dec. 5, 2001; revisions received April 4, July 17, and Dec. 7, 2002; accepted Dec. 26, 2002. From the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Emory University School of Medicine. Address reprint requests to Dr. Miller, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Emory University School of Medicine, Suite 4000, 1639 Pierce Dr., Atlanta, GA 30322; amill02@emory.edu (e-mail). Supported in part by NIMH grants MH-64619 (to Dr. Raison) and MH-00680 (to Dr. Miller) and by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The authors thank Julia Knox for assistance with artwork and manuscript preparation and Dr. Paul M. Plotsky for his critique.


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References


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> I know many of you have tried to lower cortisol , but have been unsuccessful . The reason you cannot lower cortisol directly is because cortisol is needed to de-activate the HPA axis , by means of the negative feedback loop , and as such the HPA axis will continue to produce more cortisol .
>
> You could lower cortisol by taking cortisol inhibiting drugs (ketoconazole etc) and then taking synthetic cortisol (hydrocortisone) to match the the NORMAL diurnal cortisol rhythm, thus tricking your HPA axis into regulating itself as it should.
>
> Refer to this article for more info : http://www.utmj.org/issues/77.1/pdf/Psych77-1.pdf
>
> Disclaimer : This theory is exactly that THEORETICAL so do not attempt this unless under the supervision of an experienced medical doctor.
>
> Ketoconazole is liver toxic in the doses required for corisol synthesis inhibition +400mg . It is thus advised that you have your liver values tested regularly if attempting this procedure . If elevated trying switching to another cortisol inhibiting drug metyrapone ; aminoglutethimide etc.

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by davpet on October 15, 2003, at 17:03:06

In reply to Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by jrbecker on October 15, 2003, at 15:04:07

I'm sorry jrbecker you seem to have misunderstood my thread ,it was entitled "The correct way to LOWER cortisol" and not the "The DEFINITIVE cure for depression" . I wouldn't worry about it too much we all make these mistakes.

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol » davpet

Posted by jrbecker on October 15, 2003, at 21:49:33

In reply to Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by davpet on October 15, 2003, at 17:03:06

Davpet,

apologies. I am really not trying to be antagonistic but just trying to add some clarification to the subject.

My point of making the clarification in the first place comes out of the current research that depression's relationship to the HPA axis (CRH, ACTH, cortisol) is still being explored, and at this point, is not fully understood. Perhaps you are only speaking to the very small minority of individuals who are currently seeing an endocrinologist to measure basal levels of cortisol. But to the rest of the board, who are either a) unaware of HPA's divergent role in relation to mood disorders, or b) have never had their cortisol levels drawn (the large majority), and would thus, never know if their cortisol levels are normal, high, low; your statement seems misunderstood/incomplete -- but you're right, not incorrect. Lastly, I also wanted to clarify your thread, b/c as you know, ~most~ of us on this board have the unfortunate circumstance of being the "best of the worst," meaning we are what clinicians have labeled treatment-resistant types. That is of course, why we have all sought out and found PB in the first place, and made it our home. Most of us, on this board are also extremely resourceful, we have been around the psychopharmacological block enough to know how to get what we want out of docs. To me, this is a dangerous combination, being desperate and resourceful, and this is why I would like to make sure I clarified your statement before anybody might impulsively add RU-486 to their treatment "wish" list without having all the relevant information needed to make such a rash treatment decision.

So once again, I only meant my reply as a caveat, not as a challenge.

JB

> I'm sorry jrbecker you seem to have misunderstood my thread ,it was entitled "The correct way to LOWER cortisol" and not the "The DEFINITIVE cure for depression" . I wouldn't worry about it too much we all make these mistakes.

 

Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol

Posted by cybercafe on October 18, 2003, at 18:40:22

In reply to Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by jrbecker on October 15, 2003, at 15:04:07

my cortisol levels have been borderline normal/low (like 5% above low)... is that considered hypocortisolism or do you have to be well below the normal range?

 

Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by BarbaraCat on October 19, 2003, at 14:51:19

In reply to Re: The correct way to LOWER cortisol, posted by cybercafe on October 18, 2003, at 18:40:22

My husband and I recently had our cortisol levels tested - a 4 times a day saliva test that measured morning, through evening levels where ideally cortisol should start high and then subside to low in prep for sleep. Cortisol should then ideally rise to incite us to bound out of bed whistling a happy tune. The results were very interesting. I have definite PTSD and exhibit all the classic signs, I am bipolar mixed states and don't wear stress well at all. My husband, on the other hand, is very sanguine and weathers things relatively well, had nowhere near the hellhole childhood I did. Although he's had depressions, they are of the blah gray-zone type rather than the upheaving wild despair of my mixed states depressions. You'd think with this profile that my cortisol levels would be high and his normal.

Well, his cortisol levels were extremely low, not borderline even but barely scraping the barrel low, while mine were right in the pocket normal. You'd think perhaps that his low cortisol levels contribute to his laid back mood and they probably do, however, he has been complaining of a deep fatigue and lack of motivation for a long time. BTW, my cortisol levels were the same 2 years ago when I had a similar test so this time was not a fluke. This is the first test for him.

My husband has been maintaining pretty well until just recently when he underwent double-hernia operation. It was a relatively minor hernia surgery in that there was no invasive surgical cutting but rather arthascopic through the navel and the lower abdominal muscle fascia was balooned with air and separated to allow insertion of a mesh material to hold the inguinals together and stable. Sounds uncomfortable, of course, but the standard recovery time is 2 weeks. However, with his weakened adrenal low cortisol output it proved to be the proverbial straw. He went into a downward spiral and could not spring back. What should have taken 2 weeks, at 6 weeks he's just now beginning to recover.

He basically didn't have enough cortisol to devote to healing and everything started suffering. Which is why I insisted that he see my naturopath, dammit. He's now taking small amounts of a naturally derived cortisol along with a supplement containing moderately large doses of Vitamin B6, pantothenic acid, magnesium and Vitamin C which support hypo or hyper adrenal health. He's slowly regaining a sense of energy and strength and purpose that he's missed for years and I was beginning to despair he'd ever have again.

Cortisol is produced in the adrenal cortex and so in any obvious disorder of cortisol, the adrenals have been becoming gradually compromised. I used to think 'ah, I'm constantly stressed because my cortisol levels are too high - if only I could lower the sh*t, I'd be curred.' Au contraire. Cortisol gets us going in the morning and during emergencies, it provides a buffer for our stress response, it helps us heal, it mediates inflammation. It's an anabolic steroid in that it builds and heals, rather than the catabolic tearing down, both of which are necessary processes. Like anything, too much or little can be a bad thing. It's more naturally brought into balance by all those things we know are good for us but hate to do - moderate exercise, stress control, healthy diets, 8 hours of sleep. Yawn, I knew that. But things that no pills can substitute for. In my case it seems that my levels were dangerous long ago which took out my hypothalamus and hippocampus. The problem probably now resides in a damaged HPA-axis which is finally being addressed. Part of the program is adherance to the aforementioned boring lifestyle things.

One other quite interesting issue is that our naturopath feels this is also a contributor to the fact that his estradiol levels are very high, although his testosterone levels are borderline low - not as low as one might imagine given estrogen levels higher than most women's (and I wondered why we weren't getting frisky!). The adrenals/cortisol sedondarily produce sex hormones, the primary sex hormone glands being the gonads. But crummy levels of cortisol are going to affect things 'down there'. Once the adrenal system is functioning happily, it's bio-identical testosterone shots for him. Before this underlying system is healthy, anything else would be a prematurely applied bandaid which wouldn't hold for long.

So, just thought I'd add my anecdotal evidence to the mix. The moral of the story being - it's good to know where you're at hormonally before self diagnosing and experimenting with powerful substances that could make things alot worse - even with a physician's tacit approval. My experience is that most docs, endos, ob/gyn's only measure obvious or extreme cases of hormonal disorders and in the case of adrenal disorders, recognizing only the extremes of Addison's Disease and Cushing's. The standard methods of treatment are usually to prescribe a single fractionalized medication addressing the obvious issue. This can cause further imbalances by not addressing the synergy of our very complex hormonal interplay. I happen to be a great proponent of skilled naturopathic care (and I've kissed quite a few naturopathic frogs) in chronic conditions like this that should be brought back to balance in a gradual way that does not cause any jolts. All the best to us all. - BarbaraCat

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by cybercafe on October 19, 2003, at 18:20:02

In reply to Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by BarbaraCat on October 19, 2003, at 14:51:19

> My husband and I recently had our cortisol levels tested - a 4 times a day saliva test that measured morning, through evening levels where ideally cortisol should start high and then subside to low in prep for sleep. Cortisol should then ideally

i keep mentioning saliva tests to my docs but they only seem to know of blood tests. or prefer them? i think there is also urine cortisol tests... but for some reason my docs dismiss these as well

>signs, I am bipolar mixed states and don't wear stress well at all. My husband, on the other hand,

yeah i remember writing to you before and you mentioned that your problems were narcolepsy and ?? ug 2 other things i don't remember... which really helped me (thanks a lot for your input) as i've found out a bit of important stuff relating to these alternate causes..... for instance, a family member was diagnosed with ADD and then a few years later they found out he had sleep apnea ?


>the blah gray-zone type rather than the upheaving wild despair of my mixed states depressions. You'd think with this profile that my cortisol levels would be high and his normal.

i dunno! i think the wild despair of mixed states depression comes from high norepenephrine combined with low serotonin ...... i dunno how this would effect cortisol (or even if it's correct)

> My husband has been maintaining pretty well until just recently when he underwent double-hernia operation. It was a relatively minor hernia surgery in that there was no invasive surgical cutting but rather arthascopic through the navel and the lower abdominal muscle fascia was balooned with air and separated to allow insertion of a mesh material to hold the inguinals together and stable. Sounds uncomfortable, of course, but the standard recovery time is 2 weeks. However, with his weakened adrenal low cortisol output it proved to be the proverbial straw. He went into a downward spiral and could not spring back. What should have taken 2 weeks, at 6 weeks he's just now beginning to recover.


that's too bad.... i think you're right about the importance of cortisol... i have big problems getting rid of infections... but my doctors don't seem to be too concerned ?


> He basically didn't have enough cortisol to devote to healing and everything started suffering. Which is why I insisted that he see my naturopath, dammit. He's now taking small amounts of a

i'm curious what the doctor thought ??

>naturally derived cortisol along with a supplement containing moderately large doses of Vitamin B6, pantothenic acid, magnesium and Vitamin C which support hypo or hyper adrenal health. He's slowly regaining a sense of energy and strength and purpose that he's missed for years and I was beginning to despair he'd ever have again.

oh so there are some supplements that don't raise or lower cortisol but help maintain a healthy level (i.e. it's safe for someone like me who really doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't want interactions)


>Cortisol gets us going in the morning and during emergencies, it provides a buffer for our stress response, it helps us heal, it mediates inflammation. It's an anabolic steroid in that it builds and heals, rather than the catabolic tearing down, both of which are necessary processes. Like anything, too much or little can be a bad thing.

i had a year where i couldn't sleep at all and was really anxious..... then after that i started sleeping big time ... and depression set in.... i wonder if that was cortisol being depleted..... but really it's all speculation i guess


>It's more naturally brought into balance by all those things we know are good for us but hate to do - moderate exercise, stress control, healthy diets, 8 hours of sleep. Yawn, I knew that. But things

hmmmm.... i thought antidepressants were supposed to balance cortisol?
though i think mine has been normal low with and without them


>that no pills can substitute for. In my case it seems that my levels were dangerous long ago which took out my hypothalamus and hippocampus. The problem probably now resides in a damaged HPA-axis which is finally being addressed. Part of the program is adherance to the aforementioned boring lifestyle things.

i dunno...... maybe. i'm thinking i need to get my body used to a routine amount of stress but keeping a steady job .. hmmm


>naturopath feels this is also a contributor to the fact that his estradiol levels are very high, although his testosterone levels are borderline low - not as low as one might imagine given estrogen levels higher than most women's (and I wondered why we weren't getting frisky!). The adrenals/cortisol

question ... i was told by a doctor that it wasn't worth measuring estrogen because if it were out of whack there would be very noticeable signs...... did you find this to be the case? or is my doc just too financially responsible to order tests?


> So, just thought I'd add my anecdotal evidence to the mix. The moral of the story being - it's good to know where you're at hormonally before self diagnosing and experimenting with powerful substances that could make things alot worse - even with a physician's tacit approval. My experience

ah... but how far do you go? endocronologist, sleep study, psychiatrist, dietician... ??


>is that most docs, endos, ob/gyn's only measure obvious or extreme cases of hormonal disorders and in the case of adrenal disorders, recognizing only the extremes of Addison's Disease and Cushing's.
The standard methods of treatment are usually to prescribe a single fractionalized medication addressing the obvious issue. This can cause further imbalances by not addressing the synergy of our very complex hormonal interplay. I happen to be a great proponent of skilled naturopathic care (and I've kissed quite a few naturopathic frogs) in chronic conditions like this that should be brought back to balance in a gradual way that does not cause any jolts. All the best to us all. - BarbaraCat


yes i find that to be true.... again, doctors are just too damn busy

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe

Posted by BarbaraCat on October 19, 2003, at 21:26:26

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by cybercafe on October 19, 2003, at 18:20:02

Hi Cyber,
I'll just ramble instead of addressing each of your items. First, I don't have narcolepsy. My dx is bipolar II mixed states and fibromyalgia and am hypothyroid. But I do have sleep apnea and have a rotten time getting or staying asleep. I really notice everything much more awful when I'm not sleeping - fibro pain gets terrible, energy low, etc. When I get a good night's zzzzz it's like a new world. I take Ambien to help with this but quickly get tolerant. So in my case, the anti-stress things are really important. I had a really demanding high tech job before I eventually burnt out completely with fibromyalgia and can't work. I'm usually pretty highly wound up, sometimes tired but wired, and start getting revved up in the evening. Lousy cortisol fluctuations. My thyroid condition has been a real challenge as well, especially taking lithium. But things are getting better as I begin to address the underpinnings of the whole dysfunction.

You have a good point however with getting adapted to a certain level of stress just to survive the jungle, but in order to do that you have to make sure your support systems are strong and not burning out at a slow simmer - like my hubby. Vitamins good for adrenal health are the B's, especially B6 and pantothenic acid. Vitamin C at around 6M per day, magnesium. There are formulations made for general adrenal health. If you go to www.iherb.com and do a search on adrenal or whatever you'll get lotsa hits on supplements.

As far as the testing and treatment methods of mainstream medicine - don't get me started. This will probably get me booted over to the Alternative Board but, truly, I feel like I'm on a mission from God about this stuff to anyone who cares to listen. I've had, oh you can't imagine, how many go arounds for the past 5 years trying to figure out what the hell was going on with my health. With the help of the internet I finally sleuthed out fibromyalgia which has since been verified. But I didn't know why. All my HMO doc could say was 'well, there's nothing we can do. Here's a script for some oxycodone.' Fun stuff, but not really doing much for the problem. You're absolutely right that mainstream docs don't have the time and have mandates to keep costs down. But more importantly, they don't have the training to deal with wellness issues or conditions that don't conform to standard insurance codes.

There are many things they do great. I sure wouldn't go to a naturopath for an appendectomy, lance a boil, heart surgery, heavy duty meds that we all need at times. None of the natural methods I've ever used have done a whit to get me out of a major depression, severe anxiety or insomnia. Sometimes we need heavy artillary. But for wellness issues, hormonal imbalances, chronic conditions, immune support - healing at a deep whole body level - mainstream medicine absolutely sucks. You just can't expect anything else from 15 minute office visits where everything is standardized and mandated by HMO insurers and influenced by pharmaceutical companies. It's really pathetic and scary what's happening to us and it's sad how doctors want to help but can provide care that's only adequate at best.

As far as blood tests vs. saliva, it used to be the case that saliva tests weren't as sensitive as they've gotten in the past few years. They along with urine tests used to measure only metabolites or free values rather than serum free and bound values. But things have changed with recent diagnostic methods and saliva is able to provide very sensitive measurements. If you want more info, go to http://www.salivatest.com. This is the website of ZRT labs, which is the one my naturopath uses.

I had a precancerous condition last year whereby I was getting way too much estrogen from the hormones I was getting from my HMO ob/gyn - even though they were as bioidentical as their pharmacy could manage. It wasn't fun. I had to basically go off all hormones and get back to square one then get the bejesus scraped out of me and bled for weeks afterwards. When I told him I wanted hormone tests now that I had a good zero point baseline and wanted to monitor my levels from that point on, he said the same thing you heard 'oh, hormone tests aren't accurate and besides I wouldn't know what to do with the numbers anyway'. I kid you not! This is someone women are letting deliver their babies! When I told this to my naturopath, she just shook her head and said it's really sad how so many women go through this kind of thing.

As far as the bipolar/cortisol connection, I sure don't know. You mention high norepinephrine and that sure fits, but high cortisol means high norepineprine. But a major piece of the puzzle is falling into place for me. On the suspicion of my naturopath, I had an IGF-1 test done that measure Human Growth Hormone levels. Sure enough, very very low. The pituitary makes HGH and it's a key player in regulating the whole HPA-axis, meaning that cortisol, sex hormones, thyroid hormone, muscle repair, all those important things, aren't working and no matter how many hormones I pumped into my system, nothing was maintaining. So I've been injecting HGH 6 times a week - the real stuff, not the secretogogues crap. It'll supposedly take about 6 months before I'll see a major diff, but my recent test levels are looking good and I'm feeling much better.

I wish I had a better understanding for the mood disorder stuff, chicken or egg, who knows. I'd be very rich if I did. But I can't help but believe with everything I have in me that hormones are a very big piece of the puzzle. Think PMS - any questions? So if I can leave you with anything it's this: Follow the money when it comes to your medical care and don't settle for less than excellent compassionate care and insist upon the tests you feel you need. It's not our concern if the medical business money interests are satisfied or not. We pay plenty for our medical care, and believe me, way too much when a company is no longer picking up the premiums. This applies to alternative health practitioners as well who push expensive supplements and treatments on you. Beware the hungry healer, or the hungry HMO for that matter. So, with that I'll leave you to go fix some chow for my poor ex-herniated guy. Take care and keep in touch. - Barbara

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by cybercafe on October 23, 2003, at 5:44:06

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on October 19, 2003, at 21:26:26


> I'll just ramble instead of addressing each of your items. First, I don't have narcolepsy. My dx is bipolar II mixed states and fibromyalgia and am hypothyroid. But I do have sleep apnea and have a rotten time getting or staying asleep. I really

what is sleep apnea like? does it make it hard to concentrate during the day? i wonder how close it matches ADD

>etc. When I get a good night's zzzzz it's like a new world. I take Ambien to help with this but quickly get tolerant. So in my case, the

are there any sleep meds that don't cause tolerance ... trazodone maybe?

>anti-stress things are really important. I had a really demanding high tech job before I eventually burnt out completely with fibromyalgia and can't work. I'm usually pretty highly wound up,

yeah i've had the high tech burnout too.... i think high tech jobs are especially bad .... at least when it comes to needing major concentration, focus, output

>sometimes tired but wired, and start getting revved up in the evening. Lousy cortisol fluctuations. My thyroid condition has been a real challenge as well, especially taking lithium. But things are getting better as I begin to address the underpinnings of the whole dysfunction.

i thought lithium was no good for mixed states? that's great if it's working for you

i am taking an antipsychotic (abilify) and they (zyprexa as well) work much better than depakote ever did
.
... assuming that being depressed without any mania is a good thing



> You have a good point however with getting adapted to a certain level of stress just to survive the jungle, but in order to do that you have to make sure your support systems are strong and not burning out at a slow simmer - like my hubby. Vitamins good for adrenal health are the

you're right.... though one big self realization was how important it was for me to get out there and do stuff i thought was impossible instead of sitting at home and writing on psychobabble all day ...... ug......

>B's, especially B6 and pantothenic acid. Vitamin C at around 6M per day, magnesium. There are formulations made for general adrenal health. If you go to www.iherb.com and do a search on adrenal or whatever you'll get lotsa hits on supplements.

any vegetables i can get these from naturally?


>influenced by pharmaceutical companies. It's really pathetic and scary what's happening to us and it's sad how doctors want to help but can provide care that's only adequate at best.

for sure

>values. But things have changed with recent diagnostic methods and saliva is able to provide very sensitive measurements. If you want more info, go to http://www.salivatest.com. This is the website of ZRT labs, which is the one my naturopath uses.

thanks for the link :)


> I had a precancerous condition last year whereby I was getting way too much estrogen from the hormones I was getting from my HMO ob/gyn - even though they were as bioidentical as their pharmacy could manage. It wasn't fun. I had to basically go off all hormones and get back to square one then get the bejesus scraped out of me and bled for weeks afterwards. When I told him I wanted hormone tests now that I had a good zero point baseline and wanted to monitor my levels from that point on, he said the same thing you heard 'oh, hormone tests aren't accurate and besides I wouldn't know what to do with the numbers anyway'. I kid you not! This

wow... that's horrible. i'm sorry you had to go through that :(

> As far as the bipolar/cortisol connection, I sure don't know. You mention high norepinephrine and that sure fits, but high cortisol means high norepineprine. But a major piece of the puzzle is

ah but i'm bipolar and i have low cortisol :)

>falling into place for me. On the suspicion of my naturopath, I had an IGF-1 test done that measure Human Growth Hormone levels. Sure enough, very very low. The pituitary makes HGH and it's a key player in regulating the whole HPA-axis, meaning that cortisol, sex hormones, thyroid hormone, muscle repair, all those important things, aren't working and no matter how many hormones I pumped into my system, nothing was maintaining. So I've been injecting HGH 6 times a week - the real stuff, not the secretogogues crap. It'll supposedly take about 6 months before I'll see a major diff, but my recent test levels are looking good and I'm feeling much better.

hmmm..... very interesting. this does seem like a very complex matter


> I wish I had a better understanding for the mood disorder stuff, chicken or egg, who knows. I'd be very rich if I did. But I can't help but believe with everything I have in me that hormones are a very big piece of the puzzle. Think PMS - any questions? So if I can leave you with anything it's this: Follow the money when it comes to your medical care and don't settle for less than excellent compassionate care and insist upon the tests you feel you need. It's not our concern if the medical business money interests are satisfied or not. We pay plenty for our medical care, and believe me, way too much when a company is no longer picking up the premiums. This applies to alternative health practitioners as well who push expensive supplements and treatments on you. Beware the hungry healer, or the hungry HMO for that matter. So, with that I'll leave you to go fix some chow for my poor ex-herniated guy. Take care and keep in touch. - Barbara

you too, be well :)

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe

Posted by BarbaraCat on October 23, 2003, at 12:21:09

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by cybercafe on October 23, 2003, at 5:44:06

Hi Cyber.
>
> what is sleep apnea like? does it make it hard to concentrate during the day? i wonder how close it matches ADD

***I have a type called obstructive sleep apnea which means there's something that doesn't let the air in and/or out adequately. In my case it looks like a narrow esophageal opening and when I relax during sleep the muscle tone relaxes and narrows it further. I could attribute it partly to the 30 lbs I've gained over the past 4 years but my father also had it bad and woke himself up with snoring every few hours. Sometimes I think it was the main sustainer of his extreme mood disorder.

So the main thing is that whatever the reason, the air flow stops long enough to send the body into understandable alarm and wakeup. Mostly you're not aware of waking but sometimes you definitely are and have a rotten night. My sleep lab study showed I was waking up 10-12 times an hour never fully reaching stage IV sleep. That's where all the good stuff happens in sleep, like muscle repair and deep rest. That's when the pituitary makes Human Growth Hormone without which the HPA-axis malfunctions.

It feels like what you'd expect to feel like after only a few hours sleep night after bloody night. As far as ADD, when I'm really tired from a string of bad nights I'm inattentive and unfocussed and have alot of ADD-like symptoms. But I'm not ADD, just tired, and when I'm sleeping well those symptoms go away - for the most part ;-)

So what to do about it - not much out there. I had a CPAP machine where you put on this plug ugly mask that that forces air into the nose, sounds like Darth Vadar and looks like that Hannibal Lecter mask thingy. It works well in theory but in application it was hideous. I had to take a benzo just to fight off the claustrophobia and panic attacks, and kept ripping it off sometime during the night anyway. Plus my husband said it really didn't contribute to romantic notions to look over and see Hannibal Lecter in bed with him.

The only other things I can think of is continuing to lose weight and taking up singing again cause singing helps with breathing support, and windpipe and larynx flexibility and tone. The usual suspects for breath exercises like yoga other forms of diaphramatic breathing training don't work very well because they don't address the obstruction. I frequently feel my esophagus spasm and close down during the day until I become aware of it. I have to think it has something to do with a general stress response and vice verse.
>
> are there any sleep meds that don't cause tolerance ... trazodone maybe?

***Trazodone is a good one and I wish I could use it. I was on it for years first for depression and then mainly as a sleeper and it didn't cause tolerance. But I hated how I felt in the morning. It's hard to get out of bed in the best of circumstances but I felt like I'd been hit by a hammer for the first hour after waking - a strong histamine effect. It took a long time to wake up and I felt slowed down in general. This went on for years until the dragginess got to be too much of a drag. But if you can overcome the hangover it's very effective and has the added serotonin benefit.

I take melatonin and tryptophan. I like tryp because it's a serotonin precursor and it seems to help the muscle cramping at night. But it's always a struggle to get to sleep and stay asleep no matter what and lately I've had to resort to Ambien again. This too shall pass and I think that as my exercise regiment gets going again I'll regulate naturally.

Do you have sleep problems? It seems that most bipolars do at some point in the cycle and I doubt they all have sleep apnea. But then again, who knows? As you might imagine, anything that interferes with sleep is going to cause major problems, and sleep apnea is more prevalent than most people imagine.
> >
> yeah i've had the high tech burnout too.... i think high tech jobs are especially bad .... at least when it comes to needing major concentration, focus, output

***Yeah. I enjoyed the work but hated the corporate politics and insane demands and timelines. Are you working in high tech now?
>
>
> i thought lithium was no good for mixed states? that's great if it's working for you

***I don't think it works for mixed states by itself but I don't think its destabilizing either. By itself I was still getting very depressed but they weren't mixed state nightmares. I need the lithium/lamictal combo. It must be working since I haven't had a mixed state episode since getting on that combo last year.
>
> i am taking an antipsychotic (abilify) and they (zyprexa as well) work much better than depakote ever did
>
***Do these APs have mood stabilizer properties? I tried Zyprexa for a time but hated the effects. But I can see how taking an antipsychotic is a good idea during mixed states. Don't know about you, but mine were psychotic for sure. I lived inside a Vicent van Gogh painting. An bad acid trip that goes on and on and on... Are these the only meds you're taking for BP or otherwise?
>
... assuming that being depressed without any mania is a good thing

***No fair having none of the good bipolar stuff! One of the many reasons I've opted for a subtherapeutic dose of lithium is that I need to skate around the rim of hypomania every now and then. Have you ever tried lamictal for the depression? Sorry if you've answered all these questions before. I don't have a steeltrap memory these days.
>
>how important it was for me to get out there and do stuff i thought was impossible instead of sitting at home and writing on psychobabble all day ...... ug......

***Yeah, sitting in front of the tube is addicting and depleting. I can't tell you how many wasted hours, days, I spent playing solitaire. What kinds of impossible things were you able to do again? Don't you find that getting started is the hard part but it rolls along much easier once you're into it?
>
>
> any vegetables i can get vitamin B from naturally?

***Yeah, a good healthy diet, but it won't provide the therapeutic amounts you need. As far as vitamin supplements, I'm moving away from taking the fractionalized 'active ingredients' pills and more towards whole food derived supplements that have the whole spectrum. Garden of Life is a brand I respect. They're at www.gardenoflifeusa.com but you can get their products at iHerb for alot less. Another good brand is Metagenics.
>
>
> ah but i'm bipolar and i have low cortisol :)

***How did you find out about your cortisol levels? One thing I'm convinced of is the need to get to sleep before cortisol levels start rising again. For me, that's no later than 11. But do I do it? Nooooo. I'm just hitting my stride around 11pm.
>
>
***So, what is your bipolar like? Do you feel your treatment is effective? Do you know what contributes to an episode and what helps? - BCat

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by cybercafe on October 28, 2003, at 1:24:45

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on October 23, 2003, at 12:21:09

> So the main thing is that whatever the reason, the air flow stops long enough to send the body into understandable alarm and wakeup. Mostly you're not aware of waking but sometimes you definitely are and have a rotten night. My sleep lab study showed I was waking up 10-12 times an hour never fully reaching stage IV sleep. That's where all the good stuff happens in sleep, like muscle repair and deep rest. That's when the pituitary makes Human Growth Hormone without which the HPA-axis malfunctions.

i'm curious... what do you feel like in the morning? would you sleep all day if you could?


> It feels like what you'd expect to feel like after only a few hours sleep night after bloody night. As far as ADD, when I'm really tired from a string of bad nights I'm inattentive and unfocussed and have alot of ADD-like symptoms. But I'm not ADD, just tired, and when I'm sleeping well those symptoms go away - for the most part ;-)

ah so you don't do things like hyperfocus or display other hyperactive components ... makes sense


>
> Do you have sleep problems? It seems that most bipolars do at some point in the cycle and I doubt they all have sleep apnea. But then again, who knows? As you might imagine, anything that interferes with sleep is going to cause major problems, and sleep apnea is more prevalent than most people imagine.

i want to take as many stimulating meds during the day as i can (i.e. abilify, parnate, ritalin) so i have problems staying asleep

> > i thought lithium was no good for mixed states? that's great if it's working for you
>
> ***I don't think it works for mixed states by itself but I don't think its destabilizing either. By itself I was still getting very depressed but they weren't mixed state nightmares. I need the lithium/lamictal combo. It must be working since I haven't had a mixed state episode since getting on that combo last year.

yeah i've heard some really good things about the lithium/lamictal combo on the board

> ***Do these APs have mood stabilizer properties? I tried Zyprexa for a time but hated the effects. But I can see how taking an antipsychotic is a good idea during mixed states. Don't know about you, but mine were psychotic for sure. I lived inside a Vicent van Gogh painting. An bad acid trip that goes on and on and on... Are these the only meds you're taking for BP or otherwise?

yeah i found they had really good mood stabilizing properties... too good... i havn't had any mania in years

>then. Have you ever tried lamictal for the depression? Sorry if you've answered all these questions before. I don't have a steeltrap memory these days.

yeah i've tried lamictal to try and provide mood stability, but they only took me up to 125 mg and then i went off it ... it didn't work at these levels

> > ah but i'm bipolar and i have low cortisol :)
>
> ***How did you find out about your cortisol levels? One thing I'm convinced of is the need to get to sleep before cortisol levels start rising again. For me, that's no later than 11. But do I do it? Nooooo. I'm just hitting my stride around 11pm.

blood tests, had a few

> ***So, what is your bipolar like? Do you feel your treatment is effective? Do you know what contributes to an episode and what helps? - BCat

my bipolar is mainly depressive .... i'm waiting for parnate to kick in ...... and see how much ritalin i can take with it for ADD

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 17:09:38

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by cybercafe on October 28, 2003, at 1:24:45

Hi Cyber,
> i'm curious... what do you feel like in the morning? would you sleep all day if you could?
>
**Mornings used to be alot worse and I could easily sleep all day. It seemed I was usually tired and wired. Lately with things balancing out hormonally my energy is balancing out nicely as well.

> ah so you don't do things like hyperfocus or display other hyperactive components

**Yes, I do hyperfocus and have alot of periodic classic ADD components like disorganization and frittering away time (can this Board be a symtom of this?) But my understanding is that ADD is pretty constant and mine definitely goes in cycles. There are times when I can shut the world out except for me and the object of my hyperfocus, other times when I can't rub two thoughts together. My organization goes from sh*t to almost anal-compulsive orderliness. I tried Ritalin and it made me feel crummy. On the other hand, when I was into methedrine many years ago I felt downright fab on it. But again, the cyclic nature seems to cancel out the ADD possibility. Any thoughts you have on this are very welcome because I'm baffled by it.
>
>
> i want to take as many stimulating meds during the day as i can (i.e. abilify, parnate, ritalin) so i have problems staying asleep

**Don't you get anxious from all these pstims?
> >
> yeah i've tried lamictal to try and provide mood stability, but they only took me up to 125 mg and then i went off it ... it didn't work at these levels

**I'm at 125mg and it seems to be OK. Everytime I've gone past that it gets uncomfortable. I get tempted to bump it up when I'm feeling like I'm sinking, but anymore I'm able to just wait it out and it eventually turns around. Lam and lithium have allowed me to get a grip and tolerate things much better. Feeling bad usually just stops where it is and doesn't spin into feeling bad about feeling bad about feeling bad...
>

 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by cybercafe on November 1, 2003, at 19:36:21

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 17:09:38

man, i feel bad for hijacking this thread, i guess i write too much :(


> > i'm curious... what do you feel like in the morning? would you sleep all day if you could?
> >
> **Mornings used to be alot worse and I could easily sleep all day. It seemed I was usually tired and wired. Lately with things balancing out hormonally my energy is balancing out nicely as well.

interesting... what hormones had the most effect on your energy? was this like lowering your cortisol or something?


> > ah so you don't do things like hyperfocus or display other hyperactive components
>
> **Yes, I do hyperfocus and have alot of periodic classic ADD components like disorganization and frittering away time (can this Board be a symtom of this?) But my understanding is that ADD is pretty constant and mine definitely goes in cycles. There are times when I can shut the world out except for me and the object of my hyperfocus, other times when I can't rub two thoughts together. My

sometimes i'm around people and am really hyper... othertimes i'm around more interesting/inspiring people and i can just chill out and relax.... but i definately fit the diagnostic criteria for ADHD ...

still i would like to have a sleep test when my sleeping gets somewhat back to normal

>organization goes from sh*t to almost anal-compulsive orderliness. I tried Ritalin and it made me feel crummy. On the other hand, when I was into methedrine many years ago I felt downright fab on it. But again, the cyclic nature seems to cancel out the ADD possibility. Any thoughts you have on this are very welcome because I'm baffled by it.


don't know.... heck i went 6 years without considering that i may be ADHD so i'm in no position to diagnose... heck i went 27 years wtihout considering that i may be ADHD :)

do you drive like a maniac? ...

> > i want to take as many stimulating meds during the day as i can (i.e. abilify, parnate, ritalin) so i have problems staying asleep
>
> **Don't you get anxious from all these pstims?

i don't think anymore than usual.... though when i socialize i often need a large dose of lorazepam, depending on what i'm doing

> **I'm at 125mg and it seems to be OK. Everytime I've gone past that it gets uncomfortable. I get tempted to bump it up when I'm feeling like I'm sinking, but anymore I'm able to just wait it out and it eventually turns around. Lam and lithium have allowed me to get a grip and tolerate things much better. Feeling bad usually just stops where it is and doesn't spin into feeling bad about feeling bad about feeling bad...

oh... darn... i was taking lamictal by itself..... perhaps if i'd combined lithium i would have been much much better..... but that's ok, i'm happy with abilify for now :)


 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe

Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 20:36:11

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good, posted by cybercafe on November 1, 2003, at 19:36:21

> man, i feel bad for hijacking this thread, i guess i write too much :(

**Plenty of real reasons to feel bad. This is not one of them.
>
> interesting... what hormones had the most effect on your energy? was this like lowering your cortisol or something?

**Oh man, all of them except for cortisol were out - DHEA, progesterone to estradiol ratio was very low, testosterone was low, thyroid was low, human growth hormone was very low. The HGH has been the lynchpin in the whole kielbasa. When HGH isn't adequate the pituitary doesn't function very well and all the hormones go to kerfluey and can't hold any correction from outside sources for long. I've been applying hormone creams, taking HGH shots and voila, about 80% better. My naturopath feels as I do that balancing hormone levels is absolutely critical in just about any chronic condition. None of our docs or pdocs seem to get this.

>
> do you drive like a maniac? ...
>
**Not anymore. I've gotten pretty stodgy at the wheel since my anxiety level skyrocketed a few years back. Plus, I've been in too many serious accidents. May be crazy but I ain't stupid.

> oh... darn... i was taking lamictal by itself..... perhaps if i'd combined lithium i would have been much much better..... but that's ok, i'm happy with abilify for now :)

**Lamictal and lithium go together like a horse and carriage. I can't do one without the otthhhherrr.
>


 

Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good

Posted by cybercafe on November 3, 2003, at 16:36:43

In reply to Re: Why lowering cortisol is not always good » cybercafe, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 20:36:11

> > interesting... what hormones had the most effect on your energy? was this like lowering your cortisol or something?
>
> **Oh man, all of them except for cortisol were out - DHEA, progesterone to estradiol ratio was very low, testosterone was low, thyroid was low, human growth hormone was very low. The HGH has been the lynchpin in the whole kielbasa. When HGH isn't adequate the pituitary doesn't function very well and all the hormones go to kerfluey and can't hold any correction from outside sources for long. I've been applying hormone creams, taking HGH shots and voila, about 80% better. My naturopath feels as I do that balancing hormone levels is absolutely critical in just about any chronic condition. None of our docs or pdocs seem to get this.

ahh... so you changed too many hormones at once to be sure which had which effect? ok fair enough

i know low thyroid and testosterone alone are certainly sufficient enough on their own to make you feel bad...

> > do you drive like a maniac? ...
> >
> **Not anymore. I've gotten pretty stodgy at the wheel since my anxiety level skyrocketed a few years back. Plus, I've been in too many serious accidents. May be crazy but I ain't stupid.

ah... was my number 1 criteria for diagnosing ADD (driving like a maniac)

> **Lamictal and lithium go together like a horse and carriage. I can't do one without the otthhhherrr.

cool... cool... i wonder if this will become mainstream sometime soon


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