Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 270575

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things

Posted by Francesco on October 18, 2003, at 13:21:43

I have adhd-like syntoms and I was prescribed Ritalin for a trial.

This is my third day on it. Today I took 15 mg (5+5+5). A lot of strange things are happening (of course, as ever).

first of all roller-coaster, but it's just internal. I mean, it seems that even if I'm nervous I can avoid shouting at my mom because she's breathing (even if I would like to)

but I'm not always nervous, sometimes I'm sooo calm. Bipolarity ? Ritalin ? Weather ? Who knows ?

the second thing, and *this* is really strange, I feel better when Ritalin is OFF my system ! I took the last 5 mg capsule four hours ago and NOW I feel very good (better than when I don't take Ritalin). The same things happened to me this morning when I woke up before taking the first capsule.

when Ritalin is IN my system I feel concentrated but obsessive at the same time (as expected). when I say "obsessive" I mean trouble in shifting attention from task to task, tendency to perfectionism (for ex. I'm re-reading the post now, which I usually don't)

I'm more introverted, this is dramatically true, but I'm not *shy* and I can talk with people if I want to. The strangest thing is that now I tend to talk about *facts* ("what time is the lesson ?") while before I only talked about sensations-emotions-gossips.

I don't know if I like these sensations, anyway, so far they're bearable and I will bear them and see what happens. Any suggestion or comment ? ...
which is the average dose of Ritalin for adult adhd ?

 

Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things

Posted by caleb462 on October 18, 2003, at 14:37:38

In reply to Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things, posted by Francesco on October 18, 2003, at 13:21:43

> I have adhd-like syntoms and I was prescribed Ritalin for a trial.
>
> This is my third day on it. Today I took 15 mg (5+5+5). A lot of strange things are happening (of course, as ever).
>
> first of all roller-coaster, but it's just internal. I mean, it seems that even if I'm nervous I can avoid shouting at my mom because she's breathing (even if I would like to)
>
> but I'm not always nervous, sometimes I'm sooo calm. Bipolarity ? Ritalin ? Weather ? Who knows ?
>
> the second thing, and *this* is really strange, I feel better when Ritalin is OFF my system ! I took the last 5 mg capsule four hours ago and NOW I feel very good (better than when I don't take Ritalin). The same things happened to me this morning when I woke up before taking the first capsule.
>
> when Ritalin is IN my system I feel concentrated but obsessive at the same time (as expected). when I say "obsessive" I mean trouble in shifting attention from task to task, tendency to perfectionism (for ex. I'm re-reading the post now, which I usually don't)
>
> I'm more introverted, this is dramatically true, but I'm not *shy* and I can talk with people if I want to. The strangest thing is that now I tend to talk about *facts* ("what time is the lesson ?") while before I only talked about sensations-emotions-gossips.
>
> I don't know if I like these sensations, anyway, so far they're bearable and I will bear them and see what happens. Any suggestion or comment ? ...
> which is the average dose of Ritalin for adult adhd ?
>

The effects you describe sound similiar to my reaction to Ritalin - I become quite introvoted, with a feeling of need for isolation, but not shyness. I feel some stimulant-like nervousness, but moreso I feel a great calm, particularly in the body. However, it is not neccesarilly pleasant - as I feel introverted to such an obsessive degree. I become less emotional as well, but again, not really in a pleasant way. I do admit that I've never been prescribed it, but only used it trying to have fun - the kicker being it isn't that fun. I could see myself using it to study, write essays, or work problems - but I certainly don't find it to be a social drug.

 

3 Beer Effect once said something to the effect... Ľ Francesco

Posted by DSCH on October 18, 2003, at 17:11:31

In reply to Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things, posted by Francesco on October 18, 2003, at 13:21:43

...that in his knowledge, ADHDers split into two camps, those that responded best to Ritalin and those who responded best to the various amphetamines. He considered himself to be in the latter camp.

Let me see if I can scare that old post up for you, Francesco.

A problem I see with this though, is that considering Ritalin has borderline status in Italy I'm wondering if you are going to have accesss to Adderall, Dexedrine, or Desoxyn.

Adderall is mixed salts of (racemic?) ampethamine. Dexedrine is d-ampethamine. Desoxyn is methampethamine (and is regarded with trepidation by some pdocs here as methampethamine is seen as being more likely to be diverted to street use).

Again, there's also the question of whether these effects are an adjustment period to the drug. Unless things get too out of control, I would continue with the trial. I'm also wondering if Concerta would have these same effects with its timed release. You may want to try near the end of the trial supplementing with L-tyrosine to see if that smoothes the ride out if it is still a roller coaster.

 

Re: 3 Beer Effect once said something to the effect... Ľ DSCH

Posted by francesco on October 19, 2003, at 5:54:19

In reply to 3 Beer Effect once said something to the effect... Ľ Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 18, 2003, at 17:11:31

Hi DSCH, nice to hear again. I red the 3 Beer Effect's post and other who said similar things.

You're right, getting amphetamines in Italy would be a big deal, even if my doctor allowed me to take them ... (I know he goes often to USA ... maybe he has a capacious suitcase ;-)

Yesterday anyway I was very very tired therefore I'm curios to see what happens today having after having slept ten hours.

What I have experienced in these days is a switch from inhattentive to overfocused type which is congruent with my latent obsessive tendencies.

I say "latent" because when I'm not on meds I'm too easily distracted to be obsessed about something in particular.

On Ritalin I'm having troubes in shifting attention from task to task. I'm so concentrated on a particular thing that the rest of the world doesn't exist.

For ex. a friend of mine called me half an hour ago on the mobile phone but I have not yet returned the call because *I have* to finish posting.

According to Amen people who get overfocused on stimulants are the one who will take advantage from antiobsessive meds like ... Anafranil (gulp), Prozac and so on.

... but I had similar problems also with Anafranil. If this is the effect of Ritalin I will experience also in the future I however prefer it to Anafranil because at least I'm not suicidal, anxious, rude to people, fat, semi-impotent, and so on.

Anyway I'll stay on Ritalin for a period to see what happens. so far it has been the greates med I have tried because at least the side-effects are bearable and the mood is good (you know I get depressed with prozac and anafranil).

The good thing about this new psychiatrist is that he seems to believe in what I say (he didn't say thing like "antidepressant don't make people depressed bacause are antidepressants") and he's open minded about *trials and errors*.

the bad thing is that he's often abroad and the doctor who gives me in actual fact the Ritalin is a pediatrist who is half-deaf, severe ADHD, and half-english-speaking : o

Which supplement would you suggest for my stuck-problems ?
(oh, damn, I wrote for half an hour, I got stuck again : )

(about Concerta I don't know if the pediatrist can get it ... my understanding was then sometimes he can and sometimes he can't ... I think also that before switching to Concerta he wants to know how much Ritalin I need)

 

See where it goes, keep in mind you have options Ľ francesco

Posted by DSCH on October 19, 2003, at 10:20:25

In reply to Re: 3 Beer Effect once said something to the effect... Ľ DSCH, posted by francesco on October 19, 2003, at 5:54:19

Your posts aren't quite as well written as when you are on Anafranil it seems to me... and you just made a triple posting! ;-)

Give it some more time to see if your body has some adjustments to make. That is unless you start crashing your scooter again or something of that order. ;-)

Just keep this in mind, you have yet to exhaust medications that are, or are close to being, selective norepinepherine reuptake inhibitors: desipramine, nortriptyline, reboxetine, and atomoxetine.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/283/3/1305/F3

They tested amitriptyline, imipramine, nortriptyline, and desipramine (and non-TCAs) and they come back in the order of imipramine, amitriptyline, nortriptyline, and desipramine from lowest to highest selectivity for the human norepinepherine reuptake pump vs. the serotonin reuptake pump. Note they did not test other TCAs, which presumably would more skewed towards the serotonin reuptake pump than imipramine.

 

news from the ritalin world Ľ DSCH

Posted by francesco on October 19, 2003, at 12:26:36

In reply to See where it goes, keep in mind you have options Ľ francesco, posted by DSCH on October 19, 2003, at 10:20:25

> Your posts aren't quite as well written as when you are on Anafranil it seems to me... and you just made a triple posting! ;-)

yeah, I know : / but I used a lot of difficult words ! (I found them on the dictionary ;-)
Now that my second 5mg dose kicked out I feel a lot better. these are my first impressions on Ritalin:

1. makes me a little robotic, less emotional
2. makes me introverted but not shy
3. makes me obsessive - overfocused
4. sometimes careless mistakes (dued to overfocusing on something else - Wellbutrin too)
5. blank mind sometimes (Wellbutrin too)
6. sometimes difficulty in listening to people (dued to overfocusing on something else)
7. makes me a little dumb (average joe feeling)
8. difficulty in switching from task to task and from tought to tought
9. worried (in a non-anxious way) about things that I have to do which results in motivation
10. less spontaneous (which results in being more organized and precise, which can easily results in being obsessive-compulsive-personality)

compared to anafranil:
11. no relevant physical side-effects
12. not depressed
13. not nervous (very very calm = dumbness)
14. can take it when I need it more easily

> Give it some more time to see if your body has some adjustments to make.

This is what I'm going to do. I'm waiting my psychiatrist to returned me the mail I wrote him describing my first impressions on the Rit.

I have some trouble in talking to the pediatrist because, above all, he's enthusiastic of Ritalin (and therefore he's not objective).

> Just keep this in mind, you have yet to exhaust medications that are, or are close to being, selective norepinepherine reuptake inhibitors: desipramine, nortriptyline, reboxetine, and atomoxetine.

I understand your point and I agree with you.
The problem for me anyway is not only to find the right med but also a physician who would prescribe it. I have to fix an appointment with a new pdoc, then wait, then trying to make him prescribe me what I want he to prescribe me : )

My next step is, if I decide to stop Ritalin, to push to my new p-doc desipramine instead of imiprammine ... the last time I had a script for Ritalin and Imiprammine, and I didn't want to ask for desipramine instead of tofranil, because he allowed me to take rit (and Tofranil was "his" idea ;-)

(atomoxetine is not yet on the italian market ...
reboxetine scares me for the impotence thing and it will be my last resort ...)

> They tested amitriptyline, imipramine, nortriptyline, and desipramine (and non-TCAs) and they come back in the order of imipramine, amitriptyline, nortriptyline, and desipramine from lowest to highest selectivity for the human norepinepherine reuptake pump vs. the serotonin reuptake pump. Note they did not test other TCAs, which presumably would more skewed towards the serotonin reuptake pump than imipramine.

If all of what we're talking about is true it follows that Imipramine should be tried only *after* desipramine. Anyway, it would be not easy to convince him because Tofranil is considered "the gold standard" (after Ritalin).

I'm beginning to think you're right about the NE issue. If Anafranil acts on NE and SE and if Ritalin acts on Dopamine and NE and if they both helped me with concentration maybe the problem is NE-related. I know this sounds semplicistic but we're all waiting for a brain-scan, aren't we ? ;-)

What are doing next summer ? What about a trip to AmenClinc ? ;-)(It's in the UK, isn't it ?)

 

Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things Ľ caleb462

Posted by francesco on October 19, 2003, at 12:44:33

In reply to Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things, posted by caleb462 on October 18, 2003, at 14:37:38

All you said sounds also for what regards me. I don't know if uppering the dose or get accostumed to it can change something but my impression is that it can't. Can I ask you what is your main problem and what are you doing for it ?

 

Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things

Posted by caleb462 on October 19, 2003, at 23:24:33

In reply to Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things Ľ caleb462, posted by francesco on October 19, 2003, at 12:44:33

> All you said sounds also for what regards me. I don't know if uppering the dose or get accostumed to it can change something but my impression is that it can't. Can I ask you what is your main problem and what are you doing for it ?
>

Main problem? Hard to say... I suppose generalized anxiety which fuels my atypical depression. I've also suffered from OCD and Social Phobia since I was a child. I'm quite certain I have ADD, but it is not being treated at the moment, nor has it ever. I've been through most of the SSRIS, one tricyclic (Anafranil), as well as anti-psychotic augmentation (risperdal for a while, and then seroquel). Nothing has really helped. Currently, I'm on Nardil. I stayed at 60 mg for 2 months and experienced some mild benefit, I've just recently upped to 75 mg and am really hoping Nardil will turn out to be "the one."

 

Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things Ľ caleb462

Posted by francesco on October 20, 2003, at 2:41:51

In reply to Re: Ritalin roller-coaster and other weird things, posted by caleb462 on October 19, 2003, at 23:24:33

Does Nardil help also your ADHD features ?

Did Anafranil helped a bit with them ? What dosage ? (I found helped focus a lot but it made a mess in other fields)

 

you were right man Ľ DSCH

Posted by Francesco on October 21, 2003, at 9:21:58

In reply to See where it goes, keep in mind you have options Ľ francesco, posted by DSCH on October 19, 2003, at 10:20:25

the things I'm experiencing on Ritalin are very similar to the one I experienced on Wellbutrin.

I'm so concentrated that I get more distracted, and yeah, I re-read my Anafranil posts and they were greatly written ! (moreover I have blank mind episodes like I had on Wellbutrin)

So you should be right about the NE-thing, and now I have something new to tell to my new psychiatrist ... I have also a script for Imipramine. maybe I will try it at very low dose and see what happens (waiting him to come back from the US) ... If I have also something to say to him also about imipramine he will be likely to prescribe me desipramine.

you said that desipramine is very similar to dexedrine in its molecalar structure ... can this fit with the other statement that people who doesn't do well on ritalin do better on dexedrine ?

 

Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-) Ľ Francesco

Posted by DSCH on October 21, 2003, at 11:13:29

In reply to you were right man Ľ DSCH, posted by Francesco on October 21, 2003, at 9:21:58

> the things I'm experiencing on Ritalin are very similar to the one I experienced on Wellbutrin.
>
> I'm so concentrated that I get more distracted, and yeah, I re-read my Anafranil posts and they were greatly written ! (moreover I have blank mind episodes like I had on Wellbutrin)

Yeah, your writing going some time back has been something of an indicator of your condition to me; obviously lots of brain activity going on when you have to post in a language other than your mother tongue about such things as your own mental functioning and psychopharmacology. However, your "Ritalin writing" is not nearly as bad as your "Wellbutrin writing" was.

I can not think of a solid reason why Ritalin and Wellbutrin are worse for your overfocused-on-meds tendancies than Anafranil is. And remember Anafranil is supposed to be anti-overfocused! Something paradoxical is going on in light of the standard monoamine theory. And Wellbutrin is still the odd one.

> So you should be right about the NE-thing, and now I have something new to tell to my new psychiatrist ... I have also a script for Imipramine. maybe I will try it at very low dose and see what happens (waiting him to come back from the US) ... If I have also something to say to him also about imipramine he will be likely to prescribe me desipramine.
>
> you said that desipramine is very similar to dexedrine in its molecalar structure ... can this fit with the other statement that people who doesn't do well on ritalin do better on dexedrine ?

I never said that. LOL The two are very different. This is what you are probably recalling: the MAOI tranylcypromine, Parnate, is rather similar in overall structure to amphetamine and has some degree of psychostimulant effects in addition to antidepressant effect which varys from person to person and on the dose. If I were you I would place Parnate near the bottom of the list of things to try. Tyramine is depressingly common in foods. :-(

Nortriptyline and desipramine are your friendly neighborhood secondary amine tricyclics. Imipramine is a tertiary amine tricyclic.

My I also suggest it might be worthwhile to give vitamins, minerals, and amino acids a shot free from meds? 3000 mg/day L-tyrosine + 300 mg/day 5-HTP + vitamins and minerals is working out pretty good for me at the moment. :-)

 

Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-)

Posted by Francesco on October 21, 2003, at 15:13:41

In reply to Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-) Ľ Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 21, 2003, at 11:13:29

Hi DSCH, nice to hear you again : )

> However, your "Ritalin writing" is not > nearly as bad as your "Wellbutrin writing" was.

I agree, Wellbutrin has been the worst med I have ever taken. Iím impressed anyway by the similarities between the sensations I had on Wellbutrin and the ones Iím esperiencing with Ritalin. For the first time in my life Iím taking seriously the Ďtheoryí that there is a co-relation between the mechanism of action of the meds and the way you feel. My previous attitude was: ďwho knows ? letís try this and see what happensĒ. I think you are the one who has changed my mind and I thank you so much.

Yes, I think the way you write can be a very good indicator of the way you feel. I donít think that difference of language is such a big issue because I find myself doing ďsimilar thingsĒ also when I write (or speak) in Italian.

Consider also that not every post I post is written under the influence of Ritalin. Iím telling you this because I donít want you to get crazy trying to understand how I feel from my posting. Now Ritalin is completely off : )

> I can not think of a solid reason why >Ritalin and Wellbutrin are worse for your >overfocused-on-meds tendancies than Anafranil is. And remember Anafranil is supposed to be anti->overfocused! Something paradoxical is going on >in light of the standard monoamine theory. And >Wellbutrin is still the odd one.

I have a couple of ideas about it. Ritalin and Wellbutrin makes me dumb in a similar way. This lessens also my ability to criticize what Iím doing. Therefore if I get overfocused I just donít care. When Iím on Anafranil Iím also alerted, I can see what Iím doing and blame myself for it. This can results in quitting the overfocusing, or at least, being aware of it.

I have to add that the effect I have after the first 25mg capsule of Anafranil isnít the effect I have after several months on 75mg. I think that one pill of Anafranil can improve my ADHD dramatically (I can watch an entire film not being disturbed by my mental associations) but only after several month the anti-OCD effect kicks in.

Unfortunately this results in being also fat, impotent and antisocial. Iím likely to have also OCD-tendencies but I donít wanna upper the TCAsí dose (not to talk about SSRIsí) to the anti-obsessive point because of side-effects.

Anafranil after several months of use was wonderful from the cognitive point of view: I was a studying machine. I owe to his inventor my PHD-scholarship and all the books I managed to red but I donít want to live anymore trapped in my house masturbating about the differencies between the first and second edition of the Kantís Critique of Pure Reason. Above all Kant sucks ;-)

I never said that. LOL The two are very different. This is what you are probably recalling: the MAOI tranylcypromine, Parnate, is rather similar in overall structure to amphetamine and has some degree of psychostimulant effects in addition to antidepressant effect which varys from person to person and on the dose. If I were you I would place Parnate near the bottom of the list of things to try. Tyramine is depressingly common in foods. :-(

Pardon me, youíre right. My Ritalin was kickiní off, you know ... ;-) In my mind desipramine became similar to the dexedrine because of the dishinibitory effects. There a lot of people who say that tyramineís problem has been a lot exaggerated. What do you think about it ?

My I also suggest it might be worthwhile to give vitamins, minerals, and amino acids a shot free from meds? 3000 mg/day L-tyrosine + 300 mg/day 5-HTP + vitamins and minerals is working out pretty good for me at the moment. :-)

Ok, you have definitively convinced me. I want to try L-tyrosine. Today I will ask for it to the nutritional store. Supposing I manage to get it what dosage you suggest to start with ? How much do you have to wait for the effects ?

Best wishes for everything and thanks for all.

P.S. What do you think of stuff like Acutil ?

 

Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-) Ľ Francesco

Posted by Francesco on October 22, 2003, at 4:14:18

In reply to Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-), posted by Francesco on October 21, 2003, at 15:13:41

I'm trying to find a good nutritional store in my area. I'm also thinking about the possibility I can have cingulate problems:

>This pattern is often made worse by the >stimulant medications. The problem is not >inattention, but over-attention. When you give >them a stimulant medication they tend to focus >more on the thoughts they get stuck on

(quoted by Amen)

But I feel I have also inhattentive problems:

"the harder these people try to concentrate, the worse it gets"

It seems to me that when my energy level is good I tend to show cingulate problems while when my energy is low inhattentive.

This fits with all the rest we have beein saying so far (OCD+ADHD) but it complicates a bit the picture for what regards the supplement treatment (not to talk about the diet: proteins or carbo ?). 5htp + Tyrosine ?

Just asking for curiosity anyway because I'm going to begin with Tyrosine alone and only after, maybe, add something else.

Bye

 

Francesco stuff

Posted by DSCH on October 22, 2003, at 8:22:02

In reply to Re: you were right man... Yes, I'm the man! ;-), posted by Francesco on October 21, 2003, at 15:13:41

> I have to add that the effect I have after the first 25mg capsule of Anafranil isnít the effect I have after several months on 75mg. I think that one pill of Anafranil can improve my ADHD dramatically (I can watch an entire film not being disturbed by my mental associations) but only after several month the anti-OCD effect kicks in.
>
> Unfortunately this results in being also fat, impotent and antisocial. Iím likely to have also OCD-tendencies but I donít wanna upper the TCAsí dose (not to talk about SSRIsí) to the anti-obsessive point because of side-effects.
>
> Anafranil after several months of use was wonderful from the cognitive point of view: I was a studying machine. I owe to his inventor my PHD-scholarship and all the books I managed to red but I donít want to live anymore trapped in my house masturbating about the differencies between the first and second edition of the Kantís Critique of Pure Reason. Above all Kant sucks ;-)

So you would say that, off-meds, you fit which of these categories?

1) inattention alone
2) inattention plus hyperactivity

Then on Anafranil, for the first several weeks, the inattention is replaced by overfocus and a smattering of symptoms from social phobia and oppositional-defiant disorder? But then the overfocus goes away after several weeks, but not the SP/ODD stuff? And you gain weight?

>There a lot of people who say that tyramineís problem has been a lot exaggerated. What do you think about it ?

I can't say.

> Ok, you have definitively convinced me. I want to try L-tyrosine. Today I will ask for it to the nutritional store. Supposing I manage to get it what dosage you suggest to start with ? How much do you have to wait for the effects ?

Take tyrosine on an empty stomach at least thirty minutes before a meal. I feel it coming in about an hour or so. Yesterday I missed the evening dose and could definately feel the difference. I mentally fatigue easily, *particularly* on mundane tasks strangely enough.

I would go for 1000 mg and see if you notice a difference within an hour or two.

If it helps try out a plan with just tyrosine and see if overfocus/SP/ODD comes back like with the meds. If it does, then start adding 5-HTP.

> Best wishes for everything and thanks for all.
>
> P.S. What do you think of stuff like Acutil ?

Never even heard of Acutil. What is it?

 

Re: Francesco stuff Ľ DSCH

Posted by Francesco on October 23, 2003, at 10:59:26

In reply to Francesco stuff, posted by DSCH on October 22, 2003, at 8:22:02

> So you would say that, off-meds, you fit which of these categories?
>
> 1) inattention alone
> 2) inattention plus hyperactivity

What do you mean by hyperactivity ? If you mean the ADHD-kind, swtiching from thing to thing without concluding anything, yes, I have that problem too (when my mood is good). I don't really know at the moment if this is soft bipolar II or the ADHD thing (or both).

I think that when my energy level is good I resemble more to the overfocused kind, while otherwise I resemble more to the inhattentive.
Once again I didn't manage to understand if overfocusing problems are dued to some kind of OCD or to the ADHD in itself.

> Then on Anafranil, for the first several weeks, the inattention is replaced by overfocus and a smattering of symptoms from social phobia and oppositional-defiant disorder? But then the overfocus goes away after several weeks, but not the SP/ODD stuff? And you gain weight?

Yes, something like this. I could add something else: after some week on Anafranil I exhibited also OCD disturbs (for a very short period) like
rituals. This period is very short-lasting (I suppose it begins just before the OCD effect of Anafranil kicks in). I remember I had this problems also the time I took Prozac for 6 months. As I told you I have not OCD disturbs when I'm not on meds but I had OCD disturbs when I was a child. So, there may be some "OCD" in me.

My actual self diagnosis is: ADHD inattentive type, mild BP II, OCD tendencies.

I talk about BP II primarily because of my nervousness on meds. In fact my non-meds mood switches seem to me co-related with ambient responses.

Pardon me for not answering the rest of the mail but I gotta go. I'm going to be out of town for a couple of days. I didn't get tyrosine yet, I'm a little shy in asking, it's not easy to find it here if you're not a bodybuilder : )

Anyway I started Ginko to see what happened. Let's say it works : o I'm ready to run a marathon ... so, it seems that there is not sugar in those strange capsules ...

Did you tried EPA-DHA ?

 

ocd - adhd - bp II - ginko - and the verb must Ľ Francesco

Posted by Francesco on October 23, 2003, at 12:06:41

In reply to Re: Francesco stuff Ľ DSCH, posted by Francesco on October 23, 2003, at 10:59:26

I managed to get some extra time : )

acutil is an italin substance but I didn't know it was ... there is D, L-fosforileserine inside.

I find Ginko incredibly activating, yesterday and today I took 60 mg each day (neat), maybe it's too much.

I'm experiencing also some trouble with nervousness (on Ginko !) but it's not unpleasant. Maybe I call nervousness what others call activation.

my main problem in these two days has been avoiding procrastination. I'm the king of it and I can figure out how much this feature is ADHD-related and how much is OCD-related.

I mean, I avoid things that I "MUST" do (even if the must is only internal), and when I don't do the things I have to do I enjoy meself more that usual in the meanwhile (doing other things).

this is a loop. I can do things (and enjoy myself doing them) only when I don't have to do those things (but other things). For ex. if I decide that I "have to" write I don't do it so well as I do it when I "have to do" other things (like studying). But if decide to study I abruptly want to write.

Does this sound to you obsessive stuff or adhd stuff ? I'm asking to you because you have not ever mentioned having OCD-like-problems so maybe you can do be better than me in separating the two.

on the same line ... do you have mood swings when you're not on meds (and supplements) ? one other of my problem is excessive daydreaming and I find that I daydream in excess never mind how my humour is. but when my mood is up my deadreaming is of the "grandious" kind. once again, I'm trying to separate BP-II from ADHD.

at last. you mentioned once (I'm on Ginko so this time I'm sure ;-) that in your opinion we can have a problem of high dopamine instead of low dopamine. but there is something I can't yet figure out.

I have a very poor motor cohordination (always been a complete failure in sports) and I found that it improved a lot on Ritalin. I experienced something similar (but less anyway) when I drank alcohol in not excessive doses. can this mean in your opinion that I have also problems with low- dopamine ?

sorry for these very long posts. when I'll be more expertised with supplements I hope to be helpful to you as you have been to me so far.

hope to hear you again when I come back to town.
bye "the man" ;-)

 

Re: Francesco stuff Ľ Francesco

Posted by DSCH on October 23, 2003, at 20:39:32

In reply to Re: Francesco stuff Ľ DSCH, posted by Francesco on October 23, 2003, at 10:59:26

> > So you would say that, off-meds, you fit which of these categories?
> >
> > 1) inattention alone
> > 2) inattention plus hyperactivity
>
> What do you mean by hyperactivity ? If you mean the ADHD-kind, swtiching from thing to thing without concluding anything, yes, I have that problem too (when my mood is good). I don't really know at the moment if this is soft bipolar II or the ADHD thing (or both).

Switching from thing-to-thing is more impulsivity which both classic ADHD and inattentive type ADD have in common. Basically they differ in that ADHD is having physical energy to spare, causing restlessness, rather than something that tends towards being lethargic.

> I think that when my energy level is good I resemble more to the overfocused kind, while otherwise I resemble more to the inhattentive.
> Once again I didn't manage to understand if overfocusing problems are dued to some kind of OCD or to the ADHD in itself.

Overfocus as well as OCD issues arise from hyperactivity in the cingulate gyrus according to Amen. Inattention arises from depressed prefrontal function. So it is more like co-morbidity than connection it would seem.

> My actual self diagnosis is: ADHD inattentive type, mild BP II, OCD tendencies.
>
> I talk about BP II primarily because of my nervousness on meds. In fact my non-meds mood switches seem to me co-related with ambient responses.

Ambient? ADHD is external reactive for mood, with day-to-day and within day variability. BP2 even in rapid cycling mode isn't as variable as that and it keeps to some inner-determined schedule.

> Pardon me for not answering the rest of the mail but I gotta go. I'm going to be out of town for a couple of days. I didn't get tyrosine yet, I'm a little shy in asking, it's not easy to find it here if you're not a bodybuilder : )

Work up the courage man! ;-) I think tyrosine will probably help you out significantly. I'm willing to bet you may be quite surprised even.

> Anyway I started Ginko to see what happened. Let's say it works : o I'm ready to run a marathon ... so, it seems that there is not sugar in those strange capsules ...

That's odd. Are there any other herbs along with the Gingko?

> Did you tried EPA-DHA ?

Not yet. I just got some EPA-DHA-GLA today along with some Royal Jelly. I also want to try TMG again eventually as I noticed some improvement with it when I was driking protein powder (and none when I wasn't, so aminos come first). But for more on that we should switch over to Alternative. I'll start a thread over there. Link to come in my next post. :-)

 

Re: ocd - adhd - bp II - ginko - and the verb must Ľ Francesco

Posted by DSCH on October 23, 2003, at 21:25:11

In reply to ocd - adhd - bp II - ginko - and the verb must Ľ Francesco , posted by Francesco on October 23, 2003, at 12:06:41

> I managed to get some extra time : )
>
> acutil is an italin substance but I didn't know it was ... there is D, L-fosforileserine inside.

Is that phosphatidylserine in English?

> I find Ginko incredibly activating, yesterday and today I took 60 mg each day (neat), maybe it's too much.

Hunh, that's one thing I haven't tried yet, except in small amounts in a vitamin formula I took in 2002. Maybe it is worth a try with a more potent extract and in such a dose?

> I'm experiencing also some trouble with nervousness (on Ginko !) but it's not unpleasant. Maybe I call nervousness what others call activation.

All Gingko as supposed to do IIRC is cause cerebral vasodilation. Maybe it aggravates your cingulate gyrus if it is hyperactive?

> my main problem in these two days has been avoiding procrastination. I'm the king of it and I can figure out how much this feature is ADHD-related and how much is OCD-related.
>
> I mean, I avoid things that I "MUST" do (even if the must is only internal), and when I don't do the things I have to do I enjoy meself more that usual in the meanwhile (doing other things).
>
> this is a loop. I can do things (and enjoy myself doing them) only when I don't have to do those things (but other things). For ex. if I decide that I "have to" write I don't do it so well as I do it when I "have to do" other things (like studying). But if decide to study I abruptly want to write.
>
> Does this sound to you obsessive stuff or adhd stuff ? I'm asking to you because you have not ever mentioned having OCD-like-problems so maybe you can do be better than me in separating the two.
>
> on the same line ... do you have mood swings when you're not on meds (and supplements) ? one other of my problem is excessive daydreaming and I find that I daydream in excess never mind how my humour is. but when my mood is up my deadreaming is of the "grandious" kind. once again, I'm trying to separate BP-II from ADHD.
>
> at last. you mentioned once (I'm on Ginko so this time I'm sure ;-) that in your opinion we can have a problem of high dopamine instead of low dopamine. but there is something I can't yet figure out.
>
> I have a very poor motor cohordination (always been a complete failure in sports) and I found that it improved a lot on Ritalin. I experienced something similar (but less anyway) when I drank alcohol in not excessive doses. can this mean in your opinion that I have also problems with low- dopamine ?
>
> sorry for these very long posts. when I'll be more expertised with supplements I hope to be helpful to you as you have been to me so far.
>
> hope to hear you again when I come back to town.
> bye "the man" ;-)

Lots of what you bring up here sound familar to me from my own troubles. I think you can set aside BP2 and concentrate on *inattentive type ADD*. Some relation to OCD seems to be present but gets masked/unmasked according to what you take. At least that is how I see it.

Here's the thread over on Alternative...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/272468.html

Regards,
DSCH, aka "The Man" ;-)


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