Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 253823

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Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721

Posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05

> It is SAD that there are not medications out there that help those of us who suffer from extreme depression and anxiety without serious side effects and withdrawal.

I agree with everything you've said regarding the importance of tapering off benzo type drugs as well as anti-depressants. But I fully disagree with your above statement. There most certainly ARE meds for people who suffer from extreme depression and anxiety,and side effects can be mild or tolerable. As you yourself realize, there are great differences in efficacy and side effects for different individuals.

In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jackass as to abruptly discontinue the Klonopin without a slow taper. That's like writing a presription for a grand mal seizure for sure.
>

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Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721

Posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 23:17:15

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30

Yep, that neurologist was using poor medical judgment.

It really seems that the med issue is one that is very personal to each of us. Everyone reacts to them so differently. It's about weighing which side effects can be tolerable.

Another issue for women of child bearing years is how will the meds affect an unborn baby. I read in one book that Klonopin has been linked to cleft palate defects in babies. So much research needs to be studied on that topic.

I have been reading that many docs are putting people on topomax and neurontin, but I haven't heard how well these meds are helping others. (Perhaps, this is in another thread.) I sure hope they are offering an safe and effective alternative for depression/anxiety.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the reply.

P.S. I like your name. :)


 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721

Posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 0:18:28

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05

A recent study (released by the World Health Organization, I think; I'll have to find the reference) ranked medications in order of difficulty of discontinuation. The hardest one to quit (on average) was the SSRI antidepressant Paxil. Effexor was close, and other SSRIs were in the top ten. Benzos like Klonopin were quite a bit further down the list, in the teens and twenties.

There are many drugs that, if discontinued suddenly after extended use, can cause serious withdrawal or worse. If you suddenly stopped, say, Effexor and had the kind of severe reaction some people have reported here (and elsewhere), would you say you were "addicted" to Effexor? It's strange how people use the term "addiction" so selectively (and usually incorrectly) for certain drugs like benzos, but not for others, especially those that are still under patent and heavily advertised.

I and many others have said this over and over again here, but addiction has a very specific meaning in medicine, involving obsession with a drug, continued and often escalated use despite negative consequences, and so on. This is not the same as dependence, which means that your body becomes accustomed to a substance (anything from insulin to Paxil to Xanax to heartburn medications) and reacts badly if the substance is suddenly withdrawn.

By your criteria, anyone who takes any medication for a substantial period of time and has a bad reaction if they stop it must be an addict. If so, there are an awful lot of "addicts" walking around who are "hooked" on blood pressure medications, anti-epilepsy drugs, and so on.

What makes responsible use of benzodiazepines any different ?

 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin

Posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 0:18:28

I feel that I am being attacked by using the words physical addiction. Physical addiction is different than an emotional and mental addiction.

It is ironic that you can buy Xanax, Klonopin, and valium on the street. But, they are not physically addictive? That's very odd.

The original post was how someone was suffering. Hardly anyone has addressed that. Instead they are choosing to attack me with words, because they don't like the terminology- "physical addiction". I have not seen anyone quote the medical research on Klonopin or it's horrible withdrawal. I am speaking from experience. What were the convulsions from? Why did the convulsions stop when the nurse gave me another Klonopin? Has anyone else here stopped using Klonopin for 5 years abruptly and seen what it will do?

I wasn't even talking about Paxil and Effexor. Yes, they too have horrible withdrawals. The body does become dependent. Again, I will use the term "physical addiction". Perhaps, you like physical dependency word instead. The words don't matter. People suffer from abrupt withdrawal. That was my point!

I suffer from depression and anxiety. I find this attack pointless and very sad. No one has addressed my feelings from having a horrible experience being abruptly taking off this med. The med in discussion is Klonopin!

I am not responding to anymore heartless attacks. Take your anger elsewhere. I am not your enemy. In fact, I am a fellow sufferer sharing my horrible experience. I pray that NO ONE goes thru what I did.

God Bless you all.

 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin

Posted by KellyD on August 29, 2003, at 14:26:59

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

I never intended to attack anyone. I was giving my experience also. I thought sharing different and alike experiences was what this was about. I stated before I respect others experiences and I do not doubt there are horror stories.

I'm outta this one.

 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721

Posted by Viridis on August 29, 2003, at 15:22:18

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

I'm very sorry about what you went through, and you're right -- choice of words doesn't change the seriousness of your experience in any way.

I was simply trying to make the point that many medications that are very helpful cause dependency and have to be discontinued slowly. It's unfortunate that people so often demonize one particular class of meds that improves the quality of life for so many people.

I hope that things are better for you now, and I didn't intend to direct any anger at you, just put things in perspective. Good luck!

 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721

Posted by mattdds on August 29, 2003, at 16:03:01

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

Hi there Shadows,

I feel for what you are going through, and whatever label you want to give it, I hope you recover from it.

I think the worst thing that has happened to you was the irresponsible, and highly uninformed decision your physician made by not tapering you off Klonopin. He abused his authority and made a dangerous decision, likely because he himself did not want to "deal with" managing your benzo prescription.

Nobody here will dispute the fact that *dependence* does indeed occur with long-term benzo use. Even the biggest advocates of benzos are aware of the dependence issue. All drugs have their drawbacks and this happens to be one very few that benzos have. Unfortunately, if informed consent is not followed, as it *certainly* was not in your case, there can be some severe consequences. But as long as simple precautions are followed, benzos are among the safest and most effective drugs used in psychiatry today.

I know it was not your intent to accuse anyone of being an addict. You were likely just using the verbage that your doctor had used with you. Most physicians are not aware of this distinction, especially non-psychiatrists. You could argue that the distinction is a matter of semantics. This has some truth to it, because if benzos are abruptly discontinued, there is indeed a severe withdrawal syndrome, as happens in addiction. However, people with true anxiety disorders that responsibly take benzodiazepines in no way whatsoever resemble "addicts", in the medical sense of the word. So you see, the distinction between "addicted" and "medically dependent" does become important to someone who needs this medication to function properly in life.

I don't think anyone was (intentionally) attacking you. People here (again, myself included) are quick to correct people in their use of the word "addiction" in benzodiazepines. Nobody likes to be made to feel like an "addict", especially when they are responsibly using a drug specifically made for their particular indication (anxiety). People here are eager to dispel this myth about benzos. What we forgot to do was demonstrate compassion for your situation before "correcting" you.

Hope you feel better,

Matt

 

Re: please be civil » cubbybear

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:16:53

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on August 28, 2003, at 21:44:30

> In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jack*ss

It's great to support others, but please don't use language that could offend people, thanks.

Bob

PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.

 

Re: please be civil » shadows721

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:25:55

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

> No one has addressed my feelings from having a horrible experience being abruptly taking off this med.
>
> I am not responding to anymore heartless attacks. Take your anger elsewhere.

I'm sorry you had a horrible experience, and don't feel people here have addressed it, but please be sensitive to their feelings and don't jump to conclusions about them or post anything that could lead them to feel accused. Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: withdrawal from Klonopin

Posted by stjames on August 29, 2003, at 19:39:02

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 28, 2003, at 19:41:05

It seems in your case the problem was poor medical advice.

 

Re: withdrawl from Klonopin

Posted by stjames on August 29, 2003, at 19:40:33

In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 26, 2003, at 21:27:39

They are not something to live on for life.
The body will eventually become use to a particular dosage and will need more and more of the drug to get that calming feeling again.

This is not the case for many people and has been well reported.

 

Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob

Posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29

In reply to Re: please be civil » cubbybear, posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2003, at 17:16:53

> > In your case, I would pin the blame for your suffering solely on your doctor who was such a jack*ss
>
> It's great to support others, but please don't use language that could offend people, thanks.
>
> Bob
>
>Oh, no, now it's my turn. Offensive language? How can that word potentially be offensive when directed at an individual not even named or in the discussion?What it seems to come down to, Bob, is that you seem to have an extremely conservative, if not Puritanical view of what might be considered offensive speech. I invite others to share their views. I deeply resent being told to watch my language when four-letter words were NOT involved at all.

 

Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob » cubbybear

Posted by Viridis on August 30, 2003, at 18:14:48

In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29

I have to agree with Cubbybear -- jack*** (I guess I'll put in asterisks, just to be safe) is part of everyday, civilized language, and few would consider it swearing. There's even a TV show (albeit an idiotic one) by this name. Since the term was not directed at the poster, anyone else on this board, or any named individual, I really don't see how it violates civility rules.

If Cubbybear had called the doctor a fool (which it sounds like he was), would that be considered civil?

 

Re: retraction » cubbybear

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 1, 2003, at 2:12:58

In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by cubbybear on August 30, 2003, at 8:48:29

> How can that word potentially be offensive when directed at an individual not even named or in the discussion?What it seems to come down to, Bob, is that you seem to have an extremely conservative, if not Puritanical view of what might be considered offensive speech. I invite others to share their views. I deeply resent being told to watch my language when four-letter words were NOT involved at all.

First, sorry, I assumed it would be considered "often vulgar", and it turns out it isn't.

I may have an extremely conservative view, that's true. But words can be potentially offensive even if they're not directed at someone here. And even if they're not 4 letters long. Finally, other views are fine, but should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.

Bob

 

The Term Addiction Shouldn't be Taken Lightly. » shadows721

Posted by HIBA on September 2, 2003, at 0:25:04

In reply to Re: withdrawal from Klonopin, posted by shadows721 on August 29, 2003, at 11:32:05

Like many others in this great forum, I also extend my sympathy to you. But the term "addiction" should not be taken lightly. When we use a word to define something, we should be careful enough to not to cause any harm to anyone with our words. The term "addiction" can be terrorizing to an already overanxious patient and the same reason will be sufficient for him to refuse the treatment. None of us really want to be called as "addicts". We would rather prefer to be "dependent"

If it is withdrawal symptoms that ensure a drug the label "addictive" almost all drugs deserve that label. Abrupt cessation of beta blockers will sometimes cause myocardial infarction which is fatal than a convulsion. But beta blockers are not being labelled as addictive drugs. If the availability of benzos on the streets is what make them addictive, viagra should also be an addictive drug.(the cheap version of viagra is also available on streets of many countries)

I will again stick to my statement. "It is mere medico-politics that plays behind benzo-controversy"
HIBA

 

Sorry I posted

Posted by shadows721 on September 3, 2003, at 2:09:24

In reply to The Term Addiction Shouldn't be Taken Lightly. » shadows721, posted by HIBA on September 2, 2003, at 0:25:04

It appears that my words that were taken from a neurologist affended many of you. I did not mean to in anyway. I wanted to help others from not going through withdrawals that included hallucinations, tremors, convulsions, itching, pain, and nausea (to name a few things that actually happened to me). I did not want to cause any arguments to cross between me or others about wording. I did not want to get into any analyzing of terminology, analyzing of medications, or political correctness.

I am just a person that suffers from complex PTSD. I was not born depressed and anxious, I became this way as a very young child. I have been trying to function. I have been on nearly all the medications listed in this discussion with the exception of viagra. I have had withdrawals and bizarre side effects with many of them. So, I send out prayers for all to find the right medication, physician, therapist, and treatments to help them function.

I just don't feel that my words made any sense and my original point was blurred in some way. I just wanted everyone to know that I really care and do not want others to suffer like I have. I'm sorry that I posted.

Thank you to all that have responded. I send everyone love and healing thoughts.


 

Re: Sorry I posted » shadows721

Posted by cubbybear on September 4, 2003, at 0:32:24

In reply to Sorry I posted, posted by shadows721 on September 3, 2003, at 2:09:24

Please do not feel sorry that you posted. I think that many people have learned a lot from your experiences and truly understand what you've been through. It's very common for words to be misconstrued, whether it's via E-mail, message boards, air mail letters, or even person-to-person speech. Misunderstandings happen all the time, and the main thing is that everyone gets to learn what is really meant, and that the misunderstanding gets resolved. I think I can speak for everyone on this board when I say that we wish you well and hope that you will continue to post whenever you feel the need. Unfortunately, there are negative elements in our society and loaded words in our language--words like "addiction" and "co-dependence", that are emotionally charged. The doctors and the media distort and misuse these words and so they get to be used like bullets for shooting people down. The area of benzodiazepines is highly controversial and that only adds to the problem.
So, again, it is my hope that you will continue to post and understand that no one here means any harm to you.
Personally, I am curious about your PTSD, how it happened (if you care to discuss it) and what medications were of help in any way. I do not suffer from this problem but I do know that millions of people in New York City have been traumatized by the events of 9/11 and need to be treated for PTSD as a result. I saw what the Vietnam War did to many soldiers who were lucky (?) enough to make it home and live their lives tormented by the visions of atrocities that occurred on the front lines. So long as the human race remains vulnerable to accidents, wars, bombings, violent deaths, and other traumas, we will have to deal with the after-effects. I believe that one of the most important things victims can do to ease their suffering is just to go on "venting" and talk about their feelings to sympathetic friends.

 

The shadows from the past (complex PTSD)

Posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 19:33:14

In reply to Re: Sorry I posted » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on September 4, 2003, at 0:32:24

I do appreciate interest cubby. I will try to explain my ailment (complex PTSD). Sorry this is so long.

I was sadistically abused in every means of the word by a very violent and psychotic relative. I had all the signs and symptoms of trauma as a child, but they went unnoticed by the family. This was due to I was such an obedient quiet child. I blocked out this person and his helpers of crime totally. (My MD as a child did not report the physical signs of abuse. I tried as an adult to get a copy of my chart after reading it and the next week my chart was unexplainably destroyed. The doctor died a 2 yrs later.)

My big problems began right after marriage - 3 months. This is typical. However, my symptoms were far from typical. I was having an internal sensation of extreme shaking and my vision changed. MD's were perplexed with my symptoms. I went for several years without the correct dx. I went thru the gambit of medications to try and treat these odd symptoms. Some of the initial meds included Buspar, tranxene, antivert, and a beta-blocker. The odd violent sensations and visual disturbances continued. The depression and anxiety were out of control. I did not even recognize my spouse at times. I was checked out by the best MD's in my area. They put me through every test known. Nothing showed up and the depression sank deeper.

One neurologist noted I had tremors and quickly put me on Klonopin. Klonopin worked like a bullet as far as calming the anxiety. It calmed it so much that I did not deal with the beast that lurked in the closet of my mind. After years of being on the drug, I built a tolerance and the beast of the past started playing Hell with my life again. The doctor immediately put me on Zoloft. I had a violent reaction of vomiting to it and that's when his partner took me off of it just to see what would happen. Oh, my God - the withdrawal was the worst thing that happened to me. When the doc saw what happened he called different drugs in to help- nortriptyline & elavil. I took myself (with research) in tapering off the Klonopin. (I do not recommend doing this alone. I did it, because my physican was not knowledgeable with PTSD and Klonopin withdrawal.)

The beast did not come out of the closet fully until I had a relaxation session with a therapist. My life as trying to become a nurse exploded and I decided to hospitalize myself. My therapist said she had not dealt with this level of abuse.

I got myself through a BSN nursing school with withdrawals and flashbacks and numberous other medication failures (like Serzone, paxil & Prozac, to name a few). No one knew what I was dealing with internally. Complex PTSD affected every aspect of my life - spirituality, sexually, mentally, physically, and emotionally. No one sees what I deal with, because I supposedly look great on the outside. The only thing they see is odd tremors.

My life is still in limbo. Ten years later, I still have body memories, auditory and visual memories almost all the time. They are very fragmented so it makes it really difficult to put together. I am currently trying Buspar (again) & neurontin. Buspar is hard to adjust to, but the family says they see a difference in me. I am in therapy and group therapy. I journal daily, do artwork, and exercise. (By the way, exercise and vitamins did not help the anxiety go away either.) I've read almost every book available on the subject, but my odd symptoms are not in them and they rage on...

Again, I have a MD unfamiliar with dissociation disorder and PTSD. I told him that I hear voices inside. He said that's a psychiatric red flag. I said that I know that I am not schizophrenic. He agreed and said how well I look. I did not go in to detail of the things I hear after that. This MD gives you 15mins to talk. It's just to see how the meds work.

I have tried acupuncture too. It works temporarily with the anxiety/depression, but it's very expensive. It is also very triggering to me, because part of my trauma was being bit repeatedly by snakes owned by the perp.

I am about to throw in the towel on nursing, because my problems are hindering me. I am more like a patient than a nurse. Do not feel that I can help others when I am in so much pain. Also, I am about to try EEG biofeedback as another method of treatment.

I am just an ordinary person that has experienced extremely unordinary abuse. I seek peace within and have been in contact with someone that helps people with spirtuality. All I have done is educated myself extensively and tried every method available to help me deal with the war no one talks about out loud. Complex PTSD is like being in war, but you do not remember who you were at war with or where it took place. The soldier within marches on inside without being noticed in the outside world.

Peace to all.

Shadows

 

Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD) » shadows721

Posted by Adia on September 4, 2003, at 22:46:50

In reply to The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 19:33:14

Hi,
I just wanted to say you are not alone...
and send you my support...not sure I can help..
but I suffer from the same, as a result of severe sexual abuse (incest)...
I struggle with the things you've shared and right now I feel I wouldn't be here if it weren't for my therapist ...I'm taking Risperdal but about to change..It is very scary and painful to walk through this healing journey and the aftermath of abuse all alone.
I just wanted to reach out and say you are not alone.
Is there anything I could do to help you?
Let me know...
lots of support and healing thoughts,
Adia.

> I do appreciate interest cubby. I will try to explain my ailment (complex PTSD). Sorry this is so long.
>
> I was sadistically abused in every means of the word by a very violent and psychotic relative. I had all the signs and symptoms of trauma as a child, but they went unnoticed by the family. This was due to I was such an obedient quiet child. I blocked out this person and his helpers of crime totally. (My MD as a child did not report the physical signs of abuse. I tried as an adult to get a copy of my chart after reading it and the next week my chart was unexplainably destroyed. The doctor died a 2 yrs later.)
>
> My big problems began right after marriage - 3 months. This is typical. However, my symptoms were far from typical. I was having an internal sensation of extreme shaking and my vision changed. MD's were perplexed with my symptoms. I went for several years without the correct dx. I went thru the gambit of medications to try and treat these odd symptoms. Some of the initial meds included Buspar, tranxene, antivert, and a beta-blocker. The odd violent sensations and visual disturbances continued. The depression and anxiety were out of control. I did not even recognize my spouse at times. I was checked out by the best MD's in my area. They put me through every test known. Nothing showed up and the depression sank deeper.
>
> One neurologist noted I had tremors and quickly put me on Klonopin. Klonopin worked like a bullet as far as calming the anxiety. It calmed it so much that I did not deal with the beast that lurked in the closet of my mind. After years of being on the drug, I built a tolerance and the beast of the past started playing Hell with my life again. The doctor immediately put me on Zoloft. I had a violent reaction of vomiting to it and that's when his partner took me off of it just to see what would happen. Oh, my God - the withdrawal was the worst thing that happened to me. When the doc saw what happened he called different drugs in to help- nortriptyline & elavil. I took myself (with research) in tapering off the Klonopin. (I do not recommend doing this alone. I did it, because my physican was not knowledgeable with PTSD and Klonopin withdrawal.)
>
> The beast did not come out of the closet fully until I had a relaxation session with a therapist. My life as trying to become a nurse exploded and I decided to hospitalize myself. My therapist said she had not dealt with this level of abuse.
>
> I got myself through a BSN nursing school with withdrawals and flashbacks and numberous other medication failures (like Serzone, paxil & Prozac, to name a few). No one knew what I was dealing with internally. Complex PTSD affected every aspect of my life - spirituality, sexually, mentally, physically, and emotionally. No one sees what I deal with, because I supposedly look great on the outside. The only thing they see is odd tremors.
>
> My life is still in limbo. Ten years later, I still have body memories, auditory and visual memories almost all the time. They are very fragmented so it makes it really difficult to put together. I am currently trying Buspar (again) & neurontin. Buspar is hard to adjust to, but the family says they see a difference in me. I am in therapy and group therapy. I journal daily, do artwork, and exercise. (By the way, exercise and vitamins did not help the anxiety go away either.) I've read almost every book available on the subject, but my odd symptoms are not in them and they rage on...
>
> Again, I have a MD unfamiliar with dissociation disorder and PTSD. I told him that I hear voices inside. He said that's a psychiatric red flag. I said that I know that I am not schizophrenic. He agreed and said how well I look. I did not go in to detail of the things I hear after that. This MD gives you 15mins to talk. It's just to see how the meds work.
>
> I have tried acupuncture too. It works temporarily with the anxiety/depression, but it's very expensive. It is also very triggering to me, because part of my trauma was being bit repeatedly by snakes owned by the perp.
>
> I am about to throw in the towel on nursing, because my problems are hindering me. I am more like a patient than a nurse. Do not feel that I can help others when I am in so much pain. Also, I am about to try EEG biofeedback as another method of treatment.
>
> I am just an ordinary person that has experienced extremely unordinary abuse. I seek peace within and have been in contact with someone that helps people with spirtuality. All I have done is educated myself extensively and tried every method available to help me deal with the war no one talks about out loud. Complex PTSD is like being in war, but you do not remember who you were at war with or where it took place. The soldier within marches on inside without being noticed in the outside world.
>
> Peace to all.
>
> Shadows
>
>
>
>

 

After shocks of trauma

Posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 23:29:03

In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD) » shadows721, posted by Adia on September 4, 2003, at 22:46:50

Thank you so much Adia. It was painful to write all that out. A part of me really wants to help people understand the world I live in and let others like me know they are not crazy. What they went through was crazy. I did not develop these odd symptoms and extreme fears/depression for no reason.

I have been through 3 therapists, before I found the right one. She has no experience with repressed memories, but that does not matter to me. What matters is that she shows more compassion and concern than any I have met.

I am so glad you have help. The doc offered Seroquel to me to help me sleep. He said at low doses this med is very helpful for sleeping and may help my hypervigiliance. I see things move in the corner of my sight all the time. I find I tend to self rock a lot too when under great stress. I am extremely jumpy with sounds or touch. Just can not handle watching much of what is on tv either. These are just some of the aftermath of trauma for me.


Shadows

 

Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD) » shadows721

Posted by cubbybear on September 5, 2003, at 6:15:57

In reply to The shadows from the past (complex PTSD), posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 19:33:14

Hi Shadows,
I didn't think you'd be willing to disclose your past trauma on this board and so I found your post very moving. I'm nearly at a loss for words, but there are a couple of things I'd like to say. One is that I'm presently tapering off Klonopin myself. Although I need a doctor's prescription to obtain it (here in Thailand as in the U.S.), my pdoc is an uninspiring cold fish and not really supportive of the idea of my quitting the Klonopin. He'll come out with remarks like "Just remember that if you have any problems sleeping, 2 mg. per day is perfectly safe and you shouldn't worry about it." Yes of course. But the fact is that I *want* to discontinue the medication and have resorted to my own tapering guidelines. He's never given me a tapering schedule. I've figured it out solely with the help of numerous posts on this board from others who have tapered off Klonopin.

As for PTSD, all I can say is that there's a fabulous book (not sure if it's still in print) called "They Cage the Animals at Night" by Jennings Michael Burch, who narrates his experiences of being physically abused as a child. I don't know if you're into reading about others' experiences, but it's a heart-rending book. (I'm supposed to say something here about double-double quotes when recommending a book, but am not sure what Dr. Bob means by this. He'll probably jump into the discussion and tell me. . .) Anyway, you might want to read the book. Keep posting and talking to us.

 

Re: After shocks of trauma » shadows721

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 8:41:28

In reply to After shocks of trauma, posted by shadows721 on September 4, 2003, at 23:29:03

> Thank you so much Adia. It was painful to write all that out.

I hope it was a little bit cathartic, to express yourself that way.

> A part of me really wants to help people understand the world I live in and let others like me know they are not crazy. What they went through was crazy. I did not develop these odd symptoms and extreme fears/depression for no reason.

Absolutely not. I don't pretend that I know how you feel, as the depth of your wounds seems severe, but I too have PTSD from childhood abuse. I don't mean to sound in any way that I'm trivializing your efforts at recovery, because I'm not....your body has learned to respond the way it does, and there may be ways to retrain it. Have you tried EMDR?

> I have been through 3 therapists, before I found the right one. She has no experience with repressed memories, but that does not matter to me. What matters is that she shows more compassion and concern than any I have met.

There are trauma-specialist therapists.

> I am so glad you have help. The doc offered Seroquel to me to help me sleep. He said at low doses this med is very helpful for sleeping and may help my hypervigiliance. I see things move in the corner of my sight all the time. I find I tend to self rock a lot too when under great stress. I am extremely jumpy with sounds or touch.

I know you said that vitamins didn't help you, but there are nutritional aspects to hypervigilance. The unfortunate truth about that is that it will require some experimentation, and is a prolonged process. Your body didn't become disrupted the way it is, all in one day. It takes time to nudge it back towards more natural functioning.

> Just can not handle watching much of what is on tv either. These are just some of the aftermath of trauma for me.
>
>
> Shadows

I admire your courage, very much.

Lar

 

To cub

Posted by shadows721 on September 5, 2003, at 22:14:37

In reply to Re: The shadows from the past (complex PTSD) » shadows721, posted by cubbybear on September 5, 2003, at 6:15:57

Thanks for you so much for the kind words.

As you know, it is possible to taper save. Go with what your body tells you. I had to use a pill cutter to help me. I took 3 years, but I went extremly slow. Kava Kava helped me a great deal too. I know they say it isn't safe, but I used it to just temporarily hold me over. Also, I used an antidepressant to help me through it too.

Thanks for the tip on the book. I will check it out. I really do read just about every one I can get my hands on.

shadows

 

Re: After shocks of trauma

Posted by shadows721 on September 5, 2003, at 22:44:12

In reply to Re: After shocks of trauma » shadows721, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 8:41:28

Hi there Larry

Yes, you are so right about this condition. I did not know about the vitamins helping hyperviligance. Which ones help? Currently, I take B's, calcium, magnesium, and C.

I did try EMDR. Most I have spoken to got their memories with this. I did not. I got a look at the parts of self that felt shattered. At 1st, I did not understand the visuals I was given, but now I am really starting to understand. The pieces are hard to put together. It seems like it has taken me years to piece things together.

Now, I am talking to a specialist about trying EEG biofeedback. Have you tried this treatment? Haven't spoken to anyone that has benefited from it.

The other therapist that I went to were experts in the field of DID and PTSD. I do not know why I just did not work with them well at all. I have never figured it out. Perhaps, it was a personality issue.

Buspar is helping me now. I was in horrible shape. I was shaking and feel electricity going thru my limbs from nerves. The buspar was hard to adjust to. It made me very dizzy and almost felt pressure in my head. The neurontin works well with it.

I never thought I was depressed - just anxious. But, I did feel like I was literally going to die, because I felt so bad - felt like weights hung all over me. I did not realize that my depression was really affecting my vision among other things. Now, everything is crystal clear. The buspar has not made me have the typical SSRI symptoms either. It took about 6 weeks to really start helping me. I am on the max dose 60 mg. My family can tell when I haven't taken my medication. They tell me, "Oh, by the way, did you take your medication?"

Thanks for writting.

Shadows.


 

Re: After shocks of trauma » shadows721

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 9:04:27

In reply to Re: After shocks of trauma, posted by shadows721 on September 5, 2003, at 22:44:12

> Hi there Larry
>
> Yes, you are so right about this condition. I did not know about the vitamins helping hyperviligance. Which ones help? Currently, I take B's, calcium, magnesium, and C.

How much magnesium? You may need substantial supplementation of mag, as prolonged stress causes magnesium to be dumped into urine. You need D3, to ensure uptake.

The B's are certainly important, but they may be of limited effect without concurrent mineral supps, particularly zinc(40 mg/day) and selenium (200 mcg/day). Both are hammered hard by chronic stress. And, niacinamide (the amide of nicotinic acid, B3), has calming effects all on its own.

One of the outcomes of the chronic stress condition is oxidative stress, which has substantial adverse effects. Vitamin C helps, but it's water soluble (2,000 mg/day). You need some vitamin E (800 IU/day) for fat-soluble protection, and alphalipoic acid (protects both lipids and aqueous environments, and helps extend the useful lifetime of both C and E).

The targets of oxidative stress include membrane phospholipids, and their fatty acid adducts. There are four major phospholipids, and three of them are found in good quantities in soya lecithin. I just eat soya lecithin granules by the spoonful. The missing one, phosphatidylserine, is the most critical one, as it is not only a membrane constituent, it is also a modulator of HPA activity. The supplemental form is man-made from soya lecithin, so it's substantially more expensive than the others, but it really helps with the startle thingie.

The other thing is the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids. They are bound to the phospholipids, so supplying them at the same time will probably encourage their incorporation into membranes. DHA, one of those omega-3's, helps dampen adrenal stimulation, quite apart from its actions in membranes.

Methyl donors may also have long-term calming capacity. That would be B-12, and TMG (trimethylglycine).

It may sound like a lot, but I have normalized my own startle response. I have a vulnerability (when I get stressed, I can feel it sneeking back in), but hitting the supps gets me back on track. I'm lazy with my supp intake some times, but that's probably because I'm doing so much better (I was totally disabled) that I get too busy, and I forget.

The supps may provide some immediate relief, but more likely, over the long term, your stress tolerance and reactivity will tend to normalize.

There are also herbs that directly downregulate the hyper-reactive HPA axis. Siberian ginseng, Ginkgo biloba. Licorice root tricks the hypothalamus into thinking the adrenals are working up to capacity, and can allow them to rest. St. John's wort can be helpful. I'm not suggesting you try these with the drugs. I'm saying there are options.

> I did try EMDR. Most I have spoken to got their memories with this. I did not. I got a look at the parts of self that felt shattered. At 1st, I did not understand the visuals I was given, but now I am really starting to understand. The pieces are hard to put together. It seems like it has taken me years to piece things together.

I understand that "putting the pieces together" thingie. It was "too much to take" back then, and I stored bits and pieces of the memories all over the place. Maybe you'll find EMDR more useful in the future, if you can start to bring together some memories via other means.

> Now, I am talking to a specialist about trying EEG biofeedback. Have you tried this treatment? Haven't spoken to anyone that has benefited from it.

No, I haven't tried it. The only one I ever knew who used it was able to control chronic neuropathic pain with it. It can be a powerful tool. I'd certainly be interested in hearing about how it works for you (or not).

> The other therapist that I went to were experts in the field of DID and PTSD. I do not know why I just did not work with them well at all. I have never figured it out. Perhaps, it was a personality issue.

That's always a critical factor. It's all about set and setting. That's mindset and environment during the sessions. How these therapists work might not have been right for you.

> Buspar is helping me now. I was in horrible shape. I was shaking and feel electricity going thru my limbs from nerves. The buspar was hard to adjust to. It made me very dizzy and almost felt pressure in my head. The neurontin works well with it.

> I never thought I was depressed - just anxious. But, I did feel like I was literally going to die, because I felt so bad - felt like weights hung all over me.

I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome long before I grasped the idea that I had PTSD. One of the critical supplements for me, with respect to both PTSD and CFS, has been NADH. It's a metabolite of niacin, but the synthesis of it may be hugely disrupted in both conditions. The result is abnormal energy production in mitochondria, throughout the body. Everythings affected. It has been a miraculous supplement for me. Enada NADH. Enada is an Austrian corporation that produces the stabilized NADH, but it is marketed by a variety of companies. It's all the same stuff.

> I did not realize that my depression was really affecting my vision among other things. Now, everything is crystal clear. The buspar has not made me have the typical SSRI symptoms either. It took about 6 weeks to really start helping me. I am on the max dose 60 mg. My family can tell when I haven't taken my medication. They tell me, "Oh, by the way, did you take your medication?"

Feedback helps. I take support wherever I can find it.

> Thanks for writting.
>
> Shadows.


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