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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:22:58
I'm just wondering if there are any contraindictaions in using NADH with following drugs: Klonopin, Xanax, Ultram, Xyrem.
I'm using mostly 2.5mg NADH 3x/week with good overall results on my dysthymic mood.
Posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:30:31
In reply to Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...?, posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:22:58
n/m
Posted by Viridis on August 24, 2003, at 3:22:08
In reply to Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...?, posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:22:58
Since NADH occurs naturally in every active cell in your body, I doubt that there would be any problem, or that drug companies would bother to investigate it. I take it here and there, along with Klonopin and sometimes Xanax, with no trouble. Although I'm not qualified to offer expert advice, I can't imagine any reason why it would cause difficulties.
Posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 4:24:20
In reply to Re: Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...? » btnd, posted by Viridis on August 24, 2003, at 3:22:08
> Since NADH occurs naturally in every active cell in your body, I doubt that there would be any problem, or that drug companies would bother to investigate it. I take it here and there, along with Klonopin and sometimes Xanax, with no trouble. Although I'm not qualified to offer expert advice, I can't imagine any reason why it would cause difficulties.
I've just found this study on Pubmed, which shows that Klonopin might actually be synergistic with NADH (am I right? :)Cell Calcium. 1997 Apr;21(4):321-9.
Related Articles, LinksInhibition of mitochondrial calcium efflux by clonazepam in intact single rat cardiomyocytes and effects on NADH production.
Griffiths EJ, Wei SK, Haigney MC, Ocampo CJ, Stern MD, Silverman HS.
Division of Cardiology, Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, Baltimore, Maryland, USA. elinor.griffiths@bristol.ac.uk
The aims of this study were to determine: (i) whether clonazepam and CGP37157, which inhibit the Na+/Ca2+ exchanger of isolated mitochondria, could inhibit mitochondrial Ca2+ efflux in intact cells; and (ii) whether any sustained increase in mitochondrial [Ca2+] ([Ca2+]m) could alter mitochondrial NADH levels. [Ca2+]m was measured in Indo-1/AM loaded rat ventricular myocytes where the cytosolic fluorescence signal was quenched by superfusion with Mn2+. NADH levels were determined from cell autofluorescence. Upon exposure of myocytes to 50 nM norepinephrine (NE) and a stimulation rate of 3 Hz, [Ca2+]m increased from 59 +/- 3 nM to a peak of 517 +/- 115 nM (n = 8) which recovered rapidly upon return to low stimulation rate (0.2 Hz) and washout of NE. In the presence of clonazepam, the peak increase in [Ca2+]m was 937 +/- 192 nM (n = 5) which remained elevated at 652 +/- 131 nM upon removal of the stimulus. CGP37157 in some cells did give the same inhibition of mitochondrial Ca2+ efflux as clonazepam, but the effect was inconsistent since not all cells were capable of following the stimulation rate in presence of this compound. NADH levels increased upon exposure to rapid stimulation in the presence of NE alone and recovered upon return to low stimulation rates, whereas in clonazepam treated cells the recovery of NADH was prevented.
We conclude that clonazepam is an effective inhibitor of mitochondrial [Ca2+] efflux in intact cells and also maintains the increase in NADH levels which occurs upon rapid stimulation of cells.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 7:57:19
In reply to Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...?, posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:22:58
> I'm just wondering if there are any contraindictaions in using NADH with following drugs: Klonopin, Xanax, Ultram, Xyrem.
> I'm using mostly 2.5mg NADH 3x/week with good overall results on my dysthymic mood.I agree with Viridis. I can't think of any possible adverse effect or interaction.
My own NADH trial continues to have positive outcomes. For about two years, I had been locked into a rhythm, a cycle of two months duration. I would work one month, and literally crash into lethargy, cognitive failure, and fatigue, the next. I could feel it coming (something like a migraine sufferer and the aura, but over days). I endured it, never knowing if I had hit the bottem yet. And I bounced back, and went back to work. The only thing that changed during that time was my endurance. I could work a little more and more as time went on, but the crash effect remained.
When I first took NADH, I didn't crash. I had a little bit of a feeling of the premonition, but I took some NADH, and it went away. I was thrilled, but a single event does not make a pattern. So, I went on with life (actively, not lethargic and fatigued!), and waited for the next work cycle. I worked. No crash. Hmmm! I'm starting to like this new pattern.
Time for a real trial, methinks, so I work as much as I legally can, in July (as a trucker, that's determined by logbook hours, and that's a lot of work to fill up the logbook). I increased my income over the year by one half, in that one month alone. And, in a sense, I'm working still, as it is my month with the boys, (Marion and I decided to split the summer.) (Aside: I have major respect for any single parent out there. Major respect.) And yet, no crash. I'm taking about 5 mg/week.
Another totally unanticipated effect is a major reduction in my tendency to sunburn. Another is a substantial reduction in symptoms from my inhalant allergies (including asthma). I'm still sensitive to smog, however, but that's a chemical effect.
One adverse effect may be cropping up. I'm gaining weight, something that I never do in summer. It may be that my utilization of energy from food has become more efficient with NADH, and I'm storing the excess. Que sera.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 8:09:09
In reply to Re: Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...?, posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 4:24:20
> I've just found this study on Pubmed, which shows that Klonopin might actually be synergistic with NADH (am I right? :)Yes, you've come to the correct conclusion. It took me a couple of readings to be sure, as I think they've mangled things syntactically. But hey! Who said geeks could write?
Lar
Posted by btnd on August 25, 2003, at 0:42:46
In reply to Re: Enada NADH and Klonopin,Xanax...?, posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 4:24:20
Many studies have indicated that amphetamine (Adderall/Dexedrine/Desoxyn) tolerance is prevented by exogenous or endogenous agents that are able to inhibit excess Ca++ influx into the neuron through the gated calcium channels on the neuronal membrane that have NMDA subtype glutamate receptors.
Taken from the last study I've posted on Klonopin (clonazepam) working together with NADH (or actually increases NADH). The conclusion is:
"...We conclude that clonazepam is an effective inhibitor of mitochondrial [Ca2+] efflux in intact cells."
Do you think Klonopin could be used to prevent amphetamine tolerance? Am I right again? :)
Take care.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 6:38:55
In reply to Klonopin for Adderall tolerance?, posted by btnd on August 25, 2003, at 0:42:46
> Many studies have indicated that amphetamine (Adderall/Dexedrine/Desoxyn) tolerance is prevented by exogenous or endogenous agents that are able to inhibit excess Ca++ influx into the neuron through the gated calcium channels on the neuronal membrane that have NMDA subtype glutamate receptors.
>
> Taken from the last study I've posted on Klonopin (clonazepam) working together with NADH (or actually increases NADH). The conclusion is:
>
> "...We conclude that clonazepam is an effective inhibitor of mitochondrial [Ca2+] efflux in intact cells."
>
> Do you think Klonopin could be used to prevent amphetamine tolerance? Am I right again? :)Not this time, as I read these bits.
> Take care.
The first scenario is modulated by calcium influx into neurons, i.e. from the intercellur space. The second scenario involves mitochondrial calcium efflux, i.e. into the intracellular fluid.
The former, flow into a cell from outside. The latter, flow out of an organelle, but still in the cell.Lar
Posted by Viridis on August 25, 2003, at 14:36:28
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance? » btnd, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 6:38:55
I agree with Larry -- from what you've described, these are two different processes. Cells such as neurons have an outer membrane that controls inflow and outflow of various substances, such as ions. Then, there are internal cell structures (organelles) that have their own membranes and act, to varying degrees, independently of the rest of the cell.
Mitochondria are involved in conversion of food energy to energy usable by the cell. They're probably the most independent organelles, and are actually descended from bacteria that invaded early cells around a billion years ago. They have a symbiotic relationship with the rest of the cell, but do many things on their own. Mitochondria act as important calcium storage modules, but I'm not sure how release of calcium ions from mitochondria would affect amphetamine-controlled flow of calcium ions across the outer cell membrane.
Of course, there could be a connection; I'd have to see more evidence. A good way to minimize amphetamine tolerance (if you can do this) is to skip the amphetamine for a day or two now and then. I do this with no problems.
Klonopin + Adderall is a good combo (for me) for anxiety, depression, and ADD. The two seem to work synergistically, and others here have had similar experiences. But as far as one reducing tolerance to the other, I'm skeptical.
Posted by btnd on August 25, 2003, at 22:25:56
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance? » btnd, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 6:38:55
Posted by btnd on August 25, 2003, at 22:27:21
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance? » btnd, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 6:38:55
Thanks Lar and Viridis for checking this out.
Have you come across any other substance which could block amphetamine tolerance? Of the 5 mentioned earlier I would add magnesium since it is also a NDMA antagonist, although I think its action is weak. I've used copious amounts of it and doesn't seem to be doing anything in this regard (magnesium carbonate, 33% bioavailability). Maybe one should try using chelated magnesium glycine (which has 80% bioavailability). Anyways I'll be trying to get ahold of Acamprosate, because that's the best bet of all the NDMA antagonists so far.
Posted by Peter on August 26, 2003, at 5:50:14
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance?, posted by Viridis on August 25, 2003, at 14:36:28
> Klonopin + Adderall is a good combo (for me) for anxiety, depression, and ADD. The two seem to work synergistically, and others here have had similar experiences. But as far as one reducing tolerance to the other, I'm skeptical.
>>After years of trying everything, I'm currently taking the exact same combo. Do you mind my asking how much klonopin you take daily? (I'm up to 3.25mg - the highest in years, due to a recent acute anxiety episode).
And how much adderall daily? (I used to take 20mg bid, then tapered off for a month, now I'm back on at 10mg bid).
Do you take IR or XR?
Also, I'd have to agree; out of personal experience, I've never found klonopin to decrease adderall tolerance. But that's just me(-:
Posted by Viridis on August 27, 2003, at 0:34:58
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance? » Viridis, posted by Peter on August 26, 2003, at 5:50:14
Hi Peter,
I take 1 mg Klonopin/day and about 10 mg Adderall. Those doses are fairly low, but seem to work for me.
I do take Xanax occasionally, for "breakthrough" anxiety, and interestingly, my tolerance for that has increased while my tolerance for Klonopin (which I take daily) hasn't. I used to take 0.25-0.5 mg Xanax, and now I need closer to 1 mg to get the same effect. Very strange, since I only take it once in a while. But my pdoc says it's not a cause for concern, as long as my frequency of Xanax use doesn't increase (and it hasn't).
I also take 1200 mg Neurontin/day (which doesn't seem to do anything) and 60 mg Strattera (which helps with ADD). But really, it was the Klonopin/Adderall combo that helped the most, and continues to.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 27, 2003, at 16:33:17
In reply to BTW: Larry, Ron - how are you doing on NADH? (n/m), posted by btnd on August 24, 2003, at 2:30:31
btnd,
I am currently taking 2.5 mg once or twice a week. However, I have decided to take an extended (permanent?) break from this supplement. In the beginning it was profound for the treatment of my atypical depression (low motivation, anhedonia, low energy, and hypersomnia) and it still is effective (although not profound) for this purpose. But now, seven months later, the irritability associated with my taking a dose has escalated to the point of being unacceptable.
I’m in a catch 22 because, on the one hand, I need the ENADA NADH to treat my atypical depression but, on the other hand, I can’t stand the irritability it causes for a day or two after taking each dose.
I’m glad to see that ENADA NADH is working well for some. I am a med-sensitive patient which may explain my reaction to some of these supplements. I had a very similar experience with SAM-e about 20 months ago. It did a great job in treating my atypical depression. It’s effectiveness was profound in the beginning and remained pretty good when I terminated its use five months later. I had to quit SAM-e because it made me VERY IRRITABLE (GRRRRRRRRR!) and I’m experiencing a similar (but not as bad) side effect with ENADA NADH.
So, in answer to your question, my plan is to take an NADH supplement vacation and see what happens. I hope I do not fall into a deep depression. I’ve been ramping up my exercise program in hopes of staying out of the pit.
Best wishes.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 0:47:16
In reply to Re: BTW: Larry, Ron - how are you doing on NADH? (n/m) » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on August 27, 2003, at 16:33:17
Hi Ron,
Have any meds ever made you get VERY irritable?
thnx
Posted by sneaky_raul on August 29, 2003, at 6:19:29
In reply to Re: Klonopin for Adderall tolerance? » btnd, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 6:38:55
Sorry for the interjection but this thread seemed the most relevant to my question.
Specifically: Given the fact that both L-Methionine and SAMe act as methylization (?!) agents is it at least theoretically possible that supplementation of my DL-amphetamine regimen with the either of the two would potentiate the effects of my meds? Would they, in effect, add the crucial meth isomer if taken at the proper time in relation to my Adderall dosages?
And no, I haven't seen "Spun" one time too many, it's just that the whole l-Tyrosine/B vitamin complex/"Phenylalanine good?/Phenylalanine bad?" ordeal is starting to seem decidedly less glamorous and decidedly more time-consuming...
Thanks...I've been enjoying your commentaries for some time now- Raul
Posted by Harry Goldfarb on August 30, 2003, at 2:36:11
In reply to Re: Methionine et al for Adderall tolerance?, posted by sneaky_raul on August 29, 2003, at 6:19:29
It's difficult to dismiss the correlation entirely but I think something's missing from the equation here. Thoughts?
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:26:29
In reply to Re: Methionine et al for Adderall tolerance?, posted by sneaky_raul on August 29, 2003, at 6:19:29
> Sorry for the interjection but this thread seemed the most relevant to my question.
>
> Specifically: Given the fact that both L-Methionine and SAMe act as methylization (?!) agents is it at least theoretically possible that supplementation of my DL-amphetamine regimen with the either of the two would potentiate the effects of my meds?Methionine is only a methyl donor after it has been converted to SAMe. It may seem like a quibble, but they're not the same thing. Raising your level of methionine will very likely increase SAMe, but there may be some genetic restrictions on the process.
> Would they, in effect, add the crucial meth isomer if taken at the proper time in relation to my Adderall dosages?
I don't know the answer to that question.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 11:17:33
In reply to Ron - how are you doing on NADH? (n/m), posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 0:47:16
> Hi Ron,
>
> Have any meds ever made you get VERY irritable?
> thnx
------------------Hello Mr. Mick Pack,
Yes, Wellbutrin. Even at a low dosage of about 100 mg/day, the irritability was unbearable.
-- Ron
P.S. Sorry to take a few days to reply. I was having technical difficulties with my password for this site.
Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 12:41:54
In reply to Re: Ron - how are you doing on NADH? (n/m) » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 11:17:33
"Hello Mr. Mick Pack"
>>>> LOL!
Ron, I was wondering if you thought your irritability/anger had anything to do with left temporal lobe issues (as per Dr. Amen)?
Certain meds totally cause terrible anger/irritability in me and I definitely believe that is the reason. When I'm off the offending meds, the anger/irrit totally disappears. I'd love to have a SPECT done, just afraid it would show that there is no brain to analyze, lol.
Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:12:47
In reply to Ron, - how are you doing on NADH?, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 12:41:54
> Ron, I was wondering if you thought your irritability/anger had anything to do with left temporal lobe issues (as per Dr. Amen)?
> Certain meds totally cause terrible anger/irritability in me and I definitely believe that is the reason. When I'm off the offending meds, the anger/irrit totally disappears. I'd love to have a SPECT done, just afraid it would show that there is no brain to analyze, lol.
--------------------McPac,
For me, I think it is related to low serotonin issues. If you're interested, click on this link to read my latest "cure" for irritability: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030902/msgs/256344.html
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on September 4, 2003, at 10:37:23
In reply to Re: BTW: Larry, Ron - how are you doing on NADH? (n/m) » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on August 27, 2003, at 16:33:17
btnd,
Just a quick follow-up on my previous message. I ended my ENADA NADH vacation this morning after only nine days. My motivation was dropping and atypical depression was knocking on the door.
My new plan is to take 2.5 mg once every week-and-a-half (or thereabouts) and continue to search for methods to treat any irritability caused by the ENADA NADH dosing. Currently, B-6 and zinc on an empty stomach is doing a good job treating my BP II dysphoric mood states (irritability). However, time will tell if the B-6/zinc remedy will last, and further, whether it has enough fire power to counteract the ENADA NADH induced additional irritability.
-- Ron
--------------------------------------
> btnd,
>
> I am currently taking 2.5 mg once or twice a week. However, I have decided to take an extended (permanent?) break from this supplement. In the beginning it was profound for the treatment of my atypical depression (low motivation, anhedonia, low energy, and hypersomnia) and it still is effective (although not profound) for this purpose. But now, seven months later, the irritability associated with my taking a dose has escalated to the point of being unacceptable.
>
> I’m in a catch 22 because, on the one hand, I need the ENADA NADH to treat my atypical depression but, on the other hand, I can’t stand the irritability it causes for a day or two after taking each dose.
>
> I’m glad to see that ENADA NADH is working well for some. I am a med-sensitive patient which may explain my reaction to some of these supplements. I had a very similar experience with SAM-e about 20 months ago. It did a great job in treating my atypical depression. It’s effectiveness was profound in the beginning and remained pretty good when I terminated its use five months later. I had to quit SAM-e because it made me VERY IRRITABLE (GRRRRRRRRR!) and I’m experiencing a similar (but not as bad) side effect with ENADA NADH.
>
> So, in answer to your question, my plan is to take an NADH supplement vacation and see what happens. I hope I do not fall into a deep depression. I’ve been ramping up my exercise program in hopes of staying out of the pit.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> -- Ron
>
This is the end of the thread.
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