Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 255219

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by freedom2001 on August 29, 2003, at 0:25:07

Pyrrole Disorder

Omega 3s can worsen mental symptoms in bipolar or schizophrenic patients.... if they have a pyrrole disorder. This phenotype is dramatically short of arachidonic acid & giving omega 3 oils aggravates the situation since omega 3 and omega 6 EFA's are in competition for delta 5,6 desaturases. We use red blood cell membrane analysis for EFA's
if we suspect this problem.

Pyroluric mental patients will usually get worse if given fish oils, DHA, EPA, etc. They thrive on Primrose Oil, a good source of AA and other omega 6s. (June 23, 2003)

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 29, 2003, at 2:04:37

In reply to FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by freedom2001 on August 29, 2003, at 0:25:07

I heard about this on a CD I bought from Safe Harbor by William Walsh Ph.D. of the Pfeiffer Center who have a big database on the biochemistry of mental disorders.Their site is at www.hriptc.org.Has anybody on this board used their services?. Incidentally where do you get the EFA tests done and what does it cost.Do you do pyloruria tests too?

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 3:34:01

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 29, 2003, at 2:04:37

Pyroluria (pyrrole disorder) (Pyroluria
(originally known as malvaria) is a genetic condition resulting ...
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/pyroluria.htm

..hmmm I have just about all those symptoms, then again I've usually take B6 and zinc and EPO...
Jan

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » freedom2001

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 29, 2003, at 7:58:32

In reply to FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by freedom2001 on August 29, 2003, at 0:25:07

> Pyrrole Disorder
>
> Omega 3s can worsen mental symptoms in bipolar or schizophrenic patients.... if they have a pyrrole disorder.

That's a pretty big if, in my opinion. There is a large body of evidence that both bipolar and schizophrenia are associated with defects in omega-3 metabolism, resulting in a substantial decrease in phospholipids with DHA in the sn-2 position. Rather than having a deficit of arichidonic acid, as you suggest, they have too much (relatively, as arichidonic is the usual substituent for DHA, if there's a deficiency). So, I have to wonder about the relative rarity of your defined class.

> This phenotype is dramatically short of
arachidonic acid

Meat is an excellent source, and also supplies a good amount of zinc.

> & giving omega 3 oils aggravates the situation since omega 3 and omega 6 EFA's are in competition for delta 5,6 desaturases.

No competition, if given in the preformed state. Fish oil would bypass those enzymes, and permit all the dietary omega-6 virtually unhindered access. But, wait! That's exactly what is happening already, wherever the Western-style diet exists.

> We use red blood cell membrane analysis for EFA's
> if we suspect this problem.
>
> Pyroluric mental patients will usually get worse if given fish oils, DHA, EPA, etc. They thrive on Primrose Oil, a good source of AA and other omega 6s. (June 23, 2003)

Primrose oil is *not* a source of arichidonic acid. It does contain omega-6 fatty acids (especially gamma-linolenic), but all vegetable oils have omega-6 fats.

Lar

P.S. I have a real problem with pseudo-science.

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » freedom2001

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 29, 2003, at 8:16:34

In reply to FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by freedom2001 on August 29, 2003, at 0:25:07

> Pyrrole Disorder
>
> Omega 3s can worsen mental symptoms in bipolar or schizophrenic patients.... if they have a pyrrole disorder. This phenotype is dramatically short of arachidonic acid & giving omega 3 oils aggravates the situation since omega 3 and omega 6 EFA's are in competition for delta 5,6 desaturases. We use red blood cell membrane analysis for EFA's
> if we suspect this problem.

You process flies in the face of established research.


Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 1996 Aug;55(1-2):65-70.

Utilization of precursor essential fatty acids in culture by skin fibroblasts from schizophrenic patients and normal controls.

Mahadik SP, Shendarkar NS, Scheffer RE, Mukherjee S, Correnti EE.

Department of Psychiatry and Health Behavior, Medical College of Georgia, USA.

Based on the lower levels of long-chain polyunsaturated analogs of essential fatty acids (EPUFAs) in plasma membrane phospholipids of red blood cells, brain and cultured skin fibroblasts from schizophrenic patients, a defective utilization (uptake, conversion to EPUFAs and incorporation into membrane phospholipids) of precursor EFAs has been suggested. Utilization of radiolabeled linoleic (LA, 18:2(n-6)) and alpha-linolenic (ALA, 18:3(n-3)) acids was studied in cultured skin fibroblasts from patients with established schizophrenia and at the first episode of psychosis, and normal controls. Uptake and incorporation of both the EFAs were similar in fibroblasts from both groups of patients studied compared with normal controls. However, although the utilization of LA into arachidonic acid (AA, 20:4n-6) was similar in patients and controls, the utilization of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5(n-3)) into docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6(n-3)) was significantly lower in first-episode psychotic patients (patients, 96.33 +/- 27.16 versus normals, 161.66 +/- 26.33 nmoles per mg total protein; P = < 0.001). This data indicates that the level of delta 6- as well as delta 5-desaturase may be normal. However, the levels of delta 4-desaturase may be lower in fibroblasts from schizophrenic patients even at the first episode of psychosis.


Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 1996 Aug;55(1-2):71-5.

Essential fatty acid deficiency in erythrocyte membranes from chronic schizophrenic patients, and the clinical effects of dietary supplementation.

Peet M, Laugharne JD, Mellor J, Ramchand CN.

Department of Psychiatry, Northern General Hospital Herries Road, Sheffield, UK.

There is now convincing evidence that membrane phospholipid metabolism is abnormal in schizophrenic patients. Our own studies, consistent with those of other research groups, have shown marked depletion of essential fatty acids, particularly arachidonic acid and docosahexanoic acid, in red blood cell membranes from schizophrenic patients relative to healthy control subjects. We also present preliminary evidence that similar abnormalities are present in first degree relatives of schizophrenic patients. Furthermore, it appears that changes in diet, which modify membrane levels of fatty acids, can have significant effects upon symptoms of schizophrenia and tardive dyskinesia (TD). Thus, we have found that schizophrenic patients who eat more (n-3) fatty acids in their normal diet have less severe symptoms. In a pilot study of (n-3) fatty acid supplementation we observed significant improvement in both schizophrenic symptoms and tardive dyskinesia over a 6 week period.


Med Hypotheses. 1983 Mar;10(3):329-36.

Schizophrenia: the role of abnormal essential fatty acid and prostaglandin metabolism.

Horrobin DF, Huang YS.

There are two series of essential fatty acids (EFAs), the n6 series starting with linoleic acid and the n3 series starting with alpha-linolenic acid. Members of both series are important in brain structure and can act as precursors for prostaglandin formation. Normally the desaturase enzymes which metabolize EFAs have a higher affinity for the n3 series. It is proposed that in schizophrenia mutant desaturases are present which prefer the n6 series. This change would account for the low levels of linoleic acid, dihomogammalinolenic acid and 1 series prostaglandins which have been reported in schizophrenia. It would also explain the high levels of arachidonic and alpha-linolenic acids and the recently described therapeutic response to alpha-linolenic acid. The abnormal pattern in n6 series EFAs in schizophrenics can almost exactly be imitated in rats by depriving them of n3 EFAs. This is the nearest experimental equivalent to an inability to metabolize EFAs because of an enzyme defect. Heterozygotes carrying such a mutant gene would have an advantage over either form of homozygote since they would be better able to cope with variations in dietary intake of n3 and n6 EFAs.


>
> Pyroluric mental patients will usually get worse if given fish oils, DHA, EPA, etc. They thrive on Primrose Oil, a good source of AA and other omega 6s. (June 23, 2003)

Most of the symptoms of puroluric patients arise from zinc deficiency, IMHO, as the pyrrhole effectively chelates zinc, and pulls it into the urine.

Lar

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by Blake G on August 29, 2003, at 10:03:35

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 3:34:01

William Walsh PhD of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center writes:

"Persons who have normal metabolism of B-6 need only a couple of milligrams daily, which is easily obtained from their diet. However, there are many persons with metabolic disorders which result in innate B-6 deficiency.....These persons may need 100 to 1,000 mg/day of B-6 to normalize B-6 levels in the body. An example is provided by the genetic disorder pyroluria, in which B-6 is stripped from the bloodstream by kryptopyrrole/hemepyrrole molecules."

also...

"In 1986 we discovered that certain malabsorbers didn't respond well to B-6 in the form of pyridoxine hydrochloride, but were helped greatly by the P-5-P form of B-6. For about a year we used P-5-P exclusively in treating B-6 deficiencies..... However, we later discovered that certain patients responded better to pyridoxal hydrochloride than to P-5-P. Thereafter, we provided both forms of B-6 in treating B-6 deficiency. A typical B-6 deficient patient might receive 300 mg pyridoxine
hydrochloride and 50 mg P-5-P daily."

Regards, Blake Graham

 

Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » Ed O`Flaherty

Posted by freedom2001 on August 29, 2003, at 10:08:22

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on August 29, 2003, at 2:04:37

> I heard about this on a CD I bought from Safe Harbor by William Walsh Ph.D. of the Pfeiffer Center who have a big database on the biochemistry of mental disorders.Their site is at www.hriptc.org.Has anybody on this board used their services?. Incidentally where do you get the EFA tests done and what does it cost.Do you do pyloruria tests too?


I obtained the info from a website.

I have OCD and am taking 3 MAX EPA twinlabs soft gels fish oil per day. Do OCD patients have pyloruria disorder too?

Regards,
freedom.

 

Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:35:17

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » freedom2001, posted by Larry Hoover on August 29, 2003, at 8:16:34

Lar,
for mood stabilizing purposes (bipolar), what do you think would be an optimal daily dose of combined EPA/DHA? Also, do you think the ratio is very important (some formulations claim to have the 'best' ratio)?
I try to take 3 grams a day of EPA/DHA combined.
p.s. Are any of the other omega fatty acids worth taking for psych problems? Thanks!

 

Lar (again) Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL

Posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:40:45

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by Blake G on August 29, 2003, at 10:03:35

"These persons may need 100 to 1,000 mg/day of B-6 to normalize B-6 levels in the body."

>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, is there a test that shows if B-6 levels have normalized in the body? Thanks!

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?

Posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 10:29:24

In reply to Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:35:17

Larry,

I am a Vegan. I know this is controversial around here. Can I get the same benefits from flaxseed oil? Do you know anything about this?

Thanks,
Simcha

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?

Posted by Blake G on August 30, 2003, at 11:50:28

In reply to Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?, posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 10:29:24

I was 100% vegan for 4 years. I now take 6 grams of salmon oil per day and have an other wise plant based diet. Flax oil will provide some health benefits, particularly in relation to heart health, although EPA found in fish oil is the major omage-3 which improves mental health.

I understand many vegetarians do not want to consume fish oil, as I was in that position for year myself, check out my page which has a list of suggestions for vegetarians regarding omega-3 status.

http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/omega.htm

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed? » Blake G

Posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 14:26:09

In reply to Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?, posted by Blake G on August 30, 2003, at 11:50:28

Thanks Blake! I'll check it out.

Blessings,
Simcha

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » McPac

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:47:39

In reply to Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:35:17

> Lar,
> for mood stabilizing purposes (bipolar), what do you think would be an optimal daily dose of combined EPA/DHA?

I'm sorry to phrase it this way, but the optimal dose is the amount that works for you. It's too variable to define that way, although statistics (averages) are sometimes used, many times its forgotten that these are statistics.

> Also, do you think the ratio is very important (some formulations claim to have the 'best' ratio)?

I think the emphasis on EPA is inappropriate, but that's my opinion. I like to think natural oils are best.

> I try to take 3 grams a day of EPA/DHA combined.
> p.s. Are any of the other omega fatty acids worth taking for psych problems? Thanks!

At least some of the time (you needn't take it every time, with the fish oil), you would probably benefit by taking a GLA source (evening primrose, borage, or black currant) with your fish oil. The combination of fish oil + GLA has rather potent anti-inflammatory potential.

Lar

 

Re: Lar (again) Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL » McPac

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:49:40

In reply to Lar (again) Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by McPac on August 29, 2003, at 22:40:45

> "These persons may need 100 to 1,000 mg/day of B-6 to normalize B-6 levels in the body."
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lar, is there a test that shows if B-6 levels have normalized in the body? Thanks!

I do not believe that there are valid tests for most, if not all, nutrients. I'm presuming that we're not dealing with something like obvious deficiency symptoms, such as rickets.

Lar

 

Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed? » Simcha

Posted by Larry Hoover on September 1, 2003, at 14:54:53

In reply to Re: Lar, Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, flaxseed?, posted by Simcha on August 30, 2003, at 10:29:24

> Larry,
>
> I am a Vegan. I know this is controversial around here.

Being a vegan isn't controversial, is it?

> Can I get the same benefits from flaxseed oil? Do you know anything about this?
>
> Thanks,
> Simcha

The conversion of alpha-linolenic acid, as found in flax oil, to the same long-chain fatty acids that are found in fish oil is very inefficient, according to recent studies. Females seem to do much better than males, but still only achieve 9% conversion.

From the first abstract:

"Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very
low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for
maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals."


Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):355-64

Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of
alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*.

Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General
Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK.

The capacity for conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to n-3 long-chain
polyunsaturated fatty acids was investigated in young men. Emulsified
[U-13C]ALNA was administered orally with a mixed meal to six subjects
consuming their habitual diet. Approximately 33 % of administered [13C]ALNA
was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. [13C]ALNA was
mobilised from enterocytes primarily as chylomicron triacylglycerol (TAG),
while [13C]ALNA incorporation into plasma phosphatidylcholine (PC) occurred
later, probably by the liver. The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALNA to
eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that
the liver was the principal site of ALNA desaturation and elongation,
although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes.
[13C]EPA and [13C]DPA concentrations were greater in plasma PC than TAG, and
were present in the circulation for up to 7 and 14 d, respectively. There
was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC,
TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d.
This pattern of 13C n-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or
restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. [13C]ALNA, [13C]EPA and
[13C]DPA were incorporated into erythrocyte PC, but not
phosphatidylethanolamine, suggesting uptake of intact plasma PC molecules
from lipoproteins into erythrocyte membranes. Since the capacity of adult
males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of
pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate
membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.

Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):411-421

Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and
docosahexaenoic acids in young women.

Burdge GC, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK.

The extent to which women of reproductive age are able to convert the n-3
fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA),
docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was investigated
in vivo by measuring the concentrations of labelled fatty acids in plasma
for 21 d following the ingestion of [U-13C]ALNA (700 mg). [13C]ALNA
excursion was greatest in cholesteryl ester (CE) (224 (sem 70) &mgr;mol/l
over 21 d) compared with triacylglycerol (9-fold), non-esterified fatty
acids (37-fold) and phosphatidylcholine (PC, 7-fold). EPA excursion was
similar in both PC (42 (sem 8) &mgr;mol/l) and CE (42 (sem 9) &mgr;mol/l)
over 21 d. In contrast both [13C]DPA and [13C]DHA were detected
predominately in PC (18 (sem 4) and 27 (sem 7) &mgr;mol/l over 21 d,
respectively). Estimated net fractional ALNA inter-conversion was EPA 21 %,
DPA 6 % and DHA 9 %. Approximately 22 % of administered [13C]ALNA was
recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. These results
suggest differential partitioning of ALNA, EPA and DHA between plasma lipid
classes, which may facilitate targeting of individual n-3 fatty acids to
specific tissues. Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may
possess a greater capacity for ALNA conversion than men. Such metabolic
capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate
for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. Differences in DHA status between
women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations
in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis.

Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(3):159-73

Can adults adequately convert alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to
eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)?

Gerster H.

Vitamin Research Department, F. Hoffman-Roche Ltd, Basel, Switzerland.

A diet including 2-3 portions of fatty fish per week, which corresponds to
the intake of 1.25 g EPA (20:5n-3) + DHA (22:6n-3) per day, has been
officially recommended on the basis of epidemiological findings showing a
beneficial role of these n-3 long-chain PUFA in the prevention of
cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases. The parent fatty acid ALA
(18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used
by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of
the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and
restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that
whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA
occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted. The use of ALA labelled
with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated
fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and
3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to
50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an n-6/n-3 PUFA ratio not exceeding
4-6. Restricted conversion to DHA may be critical since evidence has been
increasing that this long-chain metabolite has an autonomous function, e.g.
in the brain, retina and spermatozoa where it is the most prominent fatty
acid. In neonates deficiency is associated with visual impairment,
abnormalities in the electroretinogram and delayed cognitive development. In
adults the potential role of DHA in neurological function still needs to be
investigated in depth. Regarding cardiovascular risk factors DHA has been
shown to reduce triglyceride concentrations. These findings indicate that
future attention will have to focus on the adequate provision of DHA which
can reliably be achieved only with the supply of the preformed long-chain
metabolite.


 

Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady

Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

In reply to Re: FISH OIlS NOT FOR ALL, posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 3:34:01

> Pyroluria (pyrrole disorder) (Pyroluria
> (originally known as malvaria) is a genetic condition resulting ...
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/pyroluria.htm
>
> ..hmmm I have just about all those symptoms, then again I've usually take B6 and zinc and EPO...
> Jan
-------------------------------------

Hi Jan,

Jan, thank you for posting the link. Also thank you to Freedom for initiating the topic in this thread. And Larry, many thanks to you for your seemingly endless contribution of informative posts.

After reading the link (and the embedded links) I identified with many (but not all) of the symptoms for pyroluria (pyrrole disorder). So I went to my stockpile of vitamins and supplements and dug out a 100 mg tablet of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) and a 30 mg capsule of zinc (an amino acid chelate) and took them on an empty stomach. The benefit was profound.

Further, I have continued to take the B-6 and zinc (in isolation of taking my other vitamins) for the past three days and the benefits continue. It's too early to tell if it will last, but I wanted to document my initial response for others on this board to read.

Let me discuss the specifics. I am a bipolar II patient and I take 600 mg/day of Lithobid. It does a good job controlling my hypomania, but for some time now, I’ve been having a very difficult time with dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability). I’m convinced that the foul mood states are somehow related to serotonin deficiencies because when I take an SSRI the irritability goes away. However, I cannot tolerate the SSRI side effects. For a few months niacin was helping, but then it kind of lost most of its effectiveness. I switched to niacinamide, but it did little or nothing. I added some Neurontin (gabapentin) which helped, but the rebound from the short half-life medication left me worse than if I hadn’t taken it to begin with. But when I take the B-6 and zinc my irritability goes away.

But what I don’t understand is that I have been taking the same quantity of B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) as a component of my B-complex for several years. Further, I’ve been taking the same exact zinc chelate everyday for the past several months because of Larry’s writings regarding zinc. So I’m puzzled as to why taking B-6 and zinc by themselves on an empty stomach does such a good job (so far) treating my irritability, but taking the same amount of B-6 and zinc chelate on a full stomach in combination with my extensive matrix of vitamins and supplements does not even touch the dysphoric mood symptoms. Is it some kind of competition issue? Is the small amount (2 mg) of copper in my multi-vitamin interfering with the absorption of the zinc?

Next I plan to experiment with my omega-3 (fish oil) supplementation. I currently remain convinced of the general health benefits and the mental heath benefits of omega-3 fatty acids. However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.

Any comments?

-- Ron

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

"Pyroluria is a form of schizophrenic porphyria"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say what????? Surely this doesn't mean that all pyrolurics are schizophrenic????

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:42:15

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

I have pyroluria yet I KNOW that I feel much better (mood stability-wise) since taking fish oil supplements.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 14:16:12

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

"Most pyroluric individuals never develop schizophrenia symptoms."

>>>>>>>>>> Just found this on "The Analyst" site.

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28

Ron,

I would suggest for time time being avoiding supplements containing copper. 2 mg is not really a small amount.

The issues you described may be explained by a number of factors. These may include dietary components inhibiting absorption, the form of the nutrient, absorption competition with other nutrients. For example supplemental iron and calcium and dietary phytate can inhibit zinc absorption. Copper does not typically effect zinc absorption although high copper levels can inhibit zincs metabolic fucntion.

Dr. William Walsh writes that most pyrolurics have half or more of the symptoms listed on my page.

The following links may interest you:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/zinc.html
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/b6.html

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:00:56

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18

McPac,

No it does not. Roughly 27% of schizophrenics are pyroluric. Dr. Carl Pfeiffer first studied pyroluria in relation to schizophrenia.

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Pyroluria

Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:42:15

McPac,

Every one is different. The statments made about pyroluria and omega-3's are general findings and do not apply to everyone. Everyone, pyrolurics included, needs some omega-3 fatty acids. I would suggest that for pyrolurics the average ideal amount of omega-3 fatty acids, and the ratio to and types of omega-6 fatty acids, is different to others. Maybe you would do better adding evening primrose oil with your fish oil, maybe not? Everyone is unique and chemical imbalances contributing to symptoms often co-exist with one another.

Regards, Blake

 

Re: Blake, thank you very much for the information (nm) » Blake G

Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 23:43:46

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

 

Blake, thanks for the great post and links (nm) » Blake G

Posted by tealady on September 3, 2003, at 4:35:31

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23

 

Blake, Re: Pyroluria

Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17

In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24

Hi Blake, thanks for those responses.
I've got a question for you.....I go to Pfeiffer Treatment Center and they are currently treating me for a very high histamine level.....I'm taking shovelfuls of supplements every day, they've had me on this supplement regimen for almost 9 months now, mainly designed to lower the histamine (I was also found to be zinc deficient, high copper, pyroluric)...anyway, my histamine level was 129 when first tested (October of 2002)...AFTER all of their supps I was retested in late June of this year and it was 186!! VERY disappointing to say the LEAST! Now, Pfeiffer's theory is that histamine blocks serotonin production, which results in my problems (depression/ocd/anxiety/insomnia)...they say that if I get my histamine level down that I should feel better....the serotonin-enhancing meds DEFINITELY make me feel much, much better...do you buy their theory Blake? Does high histamine block serotonin? Will lowering that high histamine level allow more serotonin to be produced? Pfeiffer focuses on this ENDLESS long-term plan of reducing histamine levels...the supps are all designed to lower histamine...but while that endless goal is being attempted, I strongly think that they should be giving me more supplements to increase serotonin activity...that way they could keep their long-term, endless goal while also trying to alleviate my symptoms NOW...it doesn't do me much good to have to deal with these problems everyday while waiting forever for their goal to be reached...their supps aren't going to do anybody SQUAT (vitamin a,c,d, methionine, tmg, etc.) for severe problems....sure, that may be the way to lower histamine eventually (after years and years) but what is that weak, lame crap going to do right NOW!? Kind of like going to the hospital while bleeding to death and having them give you something that will take 2 years to begin working! Any thoughts on all this Blake? Much appreciated!


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