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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hi Barbara,
There are other ways to go that are drinking support groups other than AA. AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to. At least to look at what's going on for me. It's been my way of self-medicating over the years and now that I've decided to really get proper help = medications, I really need to let this one go. One, to see if meds will work and See what can happen when I do have all my marbles - that's also frightening. But it's time let go of the old dusty cloak that doesn't serve me. And drinking is part of that and I know it.
Even tho' I know that draw of the buttery chardonnay!
It just takes courage to let this last piece go!
Katia> Yes, it's very hard to not drink. One rather large glass of wine will make me feel 100% better immediately - the only substance that will do this. But like you, the next glass is always waiting, the initial glass's rosy effects fade pretty quickly and before long I've had the whole bottle. The next day I feel horrible, like crap, depressed, toxic, ashamed, weak. It's not worth it and every time I swear I've learned my lesson and give it up for awhile. The difference abstinence makes is remarkable - my meds work, I think clearly, my energy level is great, my meditations are like cool clear water.
>
> But I always seem to succumb eventually, thinking 'I've been good, I deserve it' and that I can stick to just one glass of that wonderfully buttery Chardonnay I got for such a deal at Costco. Not! Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from. So maybe a support group will help. My girfriend, who had a very serious drinking problem I only knew about afterwards, has had her life transformed by AA. Not just for the alcohol problem, but in every area of her life. She loves it and now has a close supporting group of friends out of it and 5 years of sobriety. Her self pride is a joy to be around. I'm not ready to go that route and would like to find another way to go, but so far I've been able to stick to my resolve to have wine just twice a month. Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped. Good luck on this, Katia. It may be the 'magic bullet' for you. But goodness, it's hard and getting help is probably the wisest choice since you're feeling so down. - Barbara
>
> > Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
> > I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
> > thanks again,
> > Katia
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 18:58:47
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
Hi Katia,
I agree with you about AA philosophy. It puts me off as well. I never lasted more than 1-2 meetings even when I was majorly in need of something. Those little slogans... It's not something I choose to be involved with, although I know it helps alot of people.Please let me know of your experience/progress with your group and what their philosophy is. I'm looking for something that will understand that an occasional Margarita (Cadillac, of course) with friends is not something to flagellate myself over. So far, the meditation/spiritual practice is keeping me on track and is probably all I need as long as I stick with it. Since I'm not in such desperate need of immediate relief I don't feel the need to get so fu**ed up like I used to. But I can't kid myself - booze combined with hypomania is a potent brew. Just wish it didn't cost so much in every way imaginable.
>AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 16, 2003, at 21:25:53
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hey BarbCat,
> Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from.
> Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped.
Barbara, I'm outta the loop on this concentrated sugar/cortisol connection thing. Will you post the link(s) that I need to read in order to come up to speed on the topic? Thank you!
In particular, I want to know how sugar intake affects cortisol levels and I want to know why it is important not to eat or drink concentrated sugars at night.
Anecdotally speaking, I periodically go through a sugar-craving-binge wherein I consume a large quantity of a dessert type treat just before bedtime or in the middle of the night. For example, I can eat an entire cheesecake or I can devour the better part of a half-gallon of ice cream with some cake, cookies, or pie. However, I've noticed repeatedly, and without fail, that I feel somewhat depressed the following day. I attribute the depression to the prior nights sugar binge. Now I'm wondering if this is related to the sugar/cortisol thing that you made reference to in your post.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 1:32:05
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 16, 2003, at 21:25:53
Sure, Ron. I'll get some info together and get back to you. Mainly it's in books and not anything I can put my finger on as far as a link. But til then, ditch the nighttime sugar and see if it makes a diff.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 1:32:05
> Sure, Ron. I'll get some info together and get back to you. Mainly it's in books and not anything I can put my finger on as far as a link. But til then, ditch the nighttime sugar and see if it makes a diff.
-------------------Barbara,
Thank you in advance for your efforts in digging up basic information on this topic. Please do not feel obligated to spend a bunch of time on this. Just the basic facts (or theories) is all I need.
Thank you very much BCat.
-- Ron
Posted by fluffy on August 17, 2003, at 13:12:55
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Hi you guys. I missed you. I didn't have much to say because I was working on improving. You know, I called my doctor (of course in a panic) and told him what was going on (not sleeping even with Ambien..on the verge of a panic attack) and he straightened me out! This always amazes me--when a pinch or two more or less of a med or an addition smooths out the wrinkles.
He upped my dose of Lamictal to 250mg. And he prescribed a benzo (I forget which one now) for sleep. I feel like normal again--sleeping on my own at a set time, and waking up after a full nights sleep (without the benzo now). Phew!!
Barbara--I'm so glad you are better!
Katia--I know you can get through this--this is kinda the icky part. I'm thinking about you.
I've almost entirely quit drinking (and smoking) for the past 4 months. And I can't tell you how much better I feel. I sure don't miss waking up feeling like---what was it?--a wrung out turd?--I like that metaphor. Anyway--I struggled with it first--I had some binges coupled with hypomania that were pretty enticing while they were happening. But after about 4 or 5 binges, I gave it up, and I just can't believe how much better I feel. Good luck with that Katia--it's a difficult hurdle (as though you hadn't had enough of those lately)
lovins to all--
Katy
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:34:36
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
So glad that you're doing well Cat!!
"Katia, please, please, please try Depakote."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barb, did you ever try Depakote yourself? If so, what are your thoughts on Depakote and the way it made you feel? How does it compare with Lithium? THANKS!!!!!!
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:45:05
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
Ron,
how would you compare Lithium vs. Depakote as far as their effectiveness? Do you prefer lithium over Depakote yourself (if so, is it just because Depakote made you gain weight?) Just wondering what other mood stabilizers folks here like besides lithium.
Thanks!
Posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Barb, wondering if you've seen or read a book titled, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin?
I'm sure you'd enjoy reading it......I wonder if his suggestions would help us folks here...he does give suggestions for folks like us....book deals with natural solutions to many types of problems, including us folks here on Babble.
Posted by katia on August 17, 2003, at 14:12:10
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 18:58:47
> Hi Katia,
> I agree with you about AA philosophy. It puts me off as well. I never lasted more than 1-2 meetings even when I was majorly in need of something. Those little slogans... It's not something I choose to be involved with, although I know it helps alot of people.
>
> Please let me know of your experience/progress with your group and what their philosophy is. I'm looking for something that will understand that an occasional Margarita (Cadillac, of course) with friends is not something to flagellate myself over. So far, the meditation/spiritual practice is keeping me on track and is probably all I need as long as I stick with it. Since I'm not in such desperate need of immediate relief I don't feel the need to get so fu**ed up like I used to. But I can't kid myself - booze combined with hypomania is a potent brew. Just wish it didn't cost so much in every way imaginable.
>
> >AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to.Hi Barb,
there is such a group out there and it's called "Rational Recovery". I have only heard about it, so I know nothing more other than it's a moderation drinking program.I upped my Depakote to 250mg last night and I woke up in a near panic attack and couldn't fall back to sleep 'til 8:30 this morning for a couple more hours.
Also, the good thing is, my appetite seems to have slightly decreased on depakote. I know i've only been on it a week. But it seems I'm having such atypical experiences with all meds! Doesn't Depakote normally sedate people? the disheartening thing of it all is that I felt normal to good and slept like a baby on absolutely nothing two weeks prior to starting the depakote.
I'll call me pdoc tomorrow - but what's he going to say that I don't already know? "just try it awhile longer, it could just be your body getting used to it."
fluffy, thanks for the words of support.
must dash! I have a class today! :-(
katia
Posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 14:47:05
In reply to Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
I picked this up from "Food and Mood" by Elizabeth Somer MA RD.
Eating carbs, especially simple ones, boosts blood insulin. Insulin assists tryptophan transport across the blood brain barrier causing serotonin levels to rise. If you are overweight and have a history of eating lots of sweats and carbs, it is likely you have developed hyperinsulinsim or insulin resistance which will make this serotonin effect stronger while depriving your brain of blood glucose (hypoglycemia).
Some of you may want to have a peak at the thread I started down below and rather obliquely and whimsically titled "Thanksgiving Dinner Serotonin Sydrome".
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:35:09
In reply to Barbcat, Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:34:36
Nope, only lithium. I pleaded with Katia on Dep because that's the one she was considering and I believe she had health issues regarding lithium. It seemed pretty clear that a mood stabilizer was in order considering the mixed states hell she was going through. Dep, from what I've read, has a similar efficacy as lithium.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barb, did you ever try Depakote yourself? If so, what are your thoughts on Depakote and the way it made you feel? How does it compare with Lithium? THANKS!!!!!!
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:38:36
In reply to Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:56:35
I'm familiar with him and intrigued by his theories, what I've read so far, but not the book yet. I've recently begun taking his Primal Defense product to replenish good intestinal flora. After one month I'm finally beginning to see an improvement in gut motility and think it's helping my absorption problems. So I'll probably get his book cause so far he seems on to something.
> Barb, wondering if you've seen or read a book titled, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin?
> I'm sure you'd enjoy reading it......I wonder if his suggestions would help us folks here...he does give suggestions for folks like us....book deals with natural solutions to many types of problems, including us folks here on Babble.
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:22:30
In reply to Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 17, 2003, at 9:08:54
Hi Ron,
Here's a quick and dirty on the subject:http://vitamintrader.com/articles/1997_04_HypoG.html
There's basically a condition called 'reactive hypoglycemia' which isn't in the mainstream medical lexicon, which only measures fasting glucose and more severe/standard hypoglycemia. "Reactive hypoglycemia" describes a condition that roller coasters up and down the sugar scale all day, causing our already stressed out adrenal systems additional dysfunction. As this article briefly goes into, cortisol which controls blood sugar, should remain low at night. Adrenal glands make cortisol. Adrenal glands become malfunctioning through an overload of stress. There results an inability to smoothly orchestrate cellular insulin/glucose transport causing depression and anxiety among other health issues. Too high a simple sugar condition in the blood causes spikes of cortisol trying to control the sugar/insulin symphony and it just can't because this hormonal system/balance is dysfunctional. Cortisol spikes are like little jolts of adrenaline and high octane caffeine - not good for nighttime sleepies.
Anyhow, the whole subject is fascinating and only one piece of the puzzle that is emerging for me - the Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Adrenal axis implication in many of our woes (I know in my own). There's also a very good little known book called "Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival" by T.S. Wiley. Stuff in there that seems no-brainer revolutionary material but we never hear about it or make the connection. I think you'd enjoy it. Happy reading. - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:38:18
In reply to Re: Katiafluffy too » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 17, 2003, at 14:12:10
Hi Katia,
I probably should remember this from past posts, but are you on any kind of benzo? What you're describing sounds like 1) your body needs to adjust (a la your pdocs mantra), or 2) your body ain't gonna adjust. In either case, your body is in stress and would probably love to unwind a bit while it's going through this ordeal. I turn to valium (previously klonopin, then lorezapam) when things get like you're describing. I know one more pill isn't what you're looking for, but a steady supply of an effective benzo, in my humble opinion, should be required when the psyche/body is in such alarm. It does take time for these things to level out and work (if they're going to, that's another story) but in the meantime you need to relax and sleep and a good old floppy muscle relaxant may be the ticket (hence, valium for me for it's muscle relaxant properties). Another hit, have you ever tried Neurontin? It works great for me when combined with valium, but not alone. Good luck, kiddo. Been there, done that, and we're all holding you in our hearts.Oh, one more thing. I recall that you were having a good year without meds and were hopeful, but just before you started Depakote you started having a really bad time again, which is why you decided to go with Dep. So, something to consider, it may not only be the Dep that's causing these symptoms but some other underlying imbalance. Tell me once again (my poor 52 year old brain's memory glands are failing, but shoot, I'm still one hot dancer) why are you opposed to lithium? - Barbara
> I upped my Depakote to 250mg last night and I woke up in a near panic attack and couldn't fall back to sleep 'til 8:30 this morning for a couple more hours.
> Also, the good thing is, my appetite seems to have slightly decreased on depakote. I know i've only been on it a week. But it seems I'm having such atypical experiences with all meds! Doesn't Depakote normally sedate people? the disheartening thing of it all is that I felt normal to good and slept like a baby on absolutely nothing two weeks prior to starting the depakote.
> I'll call me pdoc tomorrow - but what's he going to say that I don't already know? "just try it awhile longer, it could just be your body getting used to it."
> fluffy, thanks for the words of support.
> must dash! I have a class today! :-(
> katia
>
Posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 1:29:27
In reply to Katia (not Johnny) Dep » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 17:38:18
> Hi Katia,
> I probably should remember this from past posts, but are you on any kind of benzo?No. I've been taking 6.25mgs of Seroquel for sleep the past three nights. I do have some Neurontin given to me last year for sleep. I could try that. but again, I don't have any benzos.
I know my last posts have been confusing. here's the brief story again. Last summer, due to a really really bad depression, I finally acknowledged that I do need medical help and I suffer from depression. (never ever before trying any AD or anything related to mood - except alcohol and love affairs :-)[the best serotonin boosts!). The past year I've tried Celexa and Zoloft - made me a zombie and insomniac. and Serzone and Effexor = went mixed. The Serzone was the last and the reaction I had from that was actually what made me start thinking that i might be bipolar. esp. when I started realizing that there is more to bipolar than just bpI. During last year I was also at two different clinics and thrown around to about seven pdocs. At the same time that I was going hypo on Serzone (spring time) I decided to find a worthy pdoc that would really spend some time on me and THINK about it. So I took out extra student loans and forked over big bucks. By the time I got to see him in June, i was almost certain I was, as I say, "falling into the bipolar spectrum", after having done my own research and from the help of this board. For one month, he weened me off of Serzone and put me on Seroquel for sleep. He also said that i was more or less falling somewhere in the bp spectrum/ somewhere around II and mixed; but my dx is BP NOS (not otherwise specified). During the month that he weened me off Serzone, I was also doing an intense mood chart detailed daily. I saw him again at the beginning of July and at that point I was only taking SErqoquel for sleep. he prescribed Depakote.Due to my insurance (i have none) and waiting for my rx from Canada and then my resistance to begin taking it, I have only recently (one week) begun taking Depakote. HOWEVER, three weeks prior to beginning, my mood evened out. it took about two weeks off of everything for that to happen. I wasn't even taking the seroquel. I was on NOTHING for about three weeks and felt quite good and slept quite well. During those three weeks, my mood slipped slightly a day or two, but overall good. really good! So that also concerned me and I figured I might as well just give Depakote a go as I have a break in school and I have created space in my life for it now.
>Good luck, kiddo. Been there, done that, and we're all holding you in our hearts.
thanks!
> Oh, one more thing. I recall that you were having a good year without meds and were hopeful,
(not year, but a good three weeks)
> but shoot, I'm still one hot dancer)
I'm sure you are!
>why are you opposed to lithium?
I'm not. My pdoc just didn't go there. He wanted to try depakote. Iwanted to try Lamictal. But due to that rash, he wanted to start with a less "dangerous" one; and b/c dep. is tried and true as working.
we'll see how it goes. I can't imagine Dep. being enough for my depresson tho'.
warmly,
Katia
Posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 1:35:50
In reply to Re: Barb/Others, Re: The Cortisol/Sugar Connection » McPac, posted by Barbara Cat on August 17, 2003, at 16:38:36
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2003, at 8:02:48
In reply to The Serotonin/Carbohydrate Connection, posted by DSCH on August 17, 2003, at 14:47:05
> I picked this up from "Food and Mood" by Elizabeth Somer MA RD.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Ron Hill on August 18, 2003, at 21:19:55
In reply to Ron Hill, Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by McPac on August 17, 2003, at 13:45:05
> Ron,
> how would you compare Lithium vs. Depakote as far as their effectiveness? Do you prefer lithium over Depakote yourself (if so, is it just because Depakote made you gain weight?) Just wondering what other mood stabilizers folks here like besides lithium.
> Thanks!
--------------------------Hey Mack Pack Man,
As you know, different patients can have very different responses to the same medication. So my experience might not say much about how it would work for you or anyone else.
For me, Depakote was not a good fit. It caused hair loss, rashes on my body, 30 pounds of weight gain, and it made my depression even worse when I took it several years ago at a dosage of 750 mg/day. I stayed on it for a little over a year because I didn’t know about this site at the time (in the 90’s) and I had an idiot for a pdoc back in those days.
One good thing about it was that it caused me to sleep VERY soundly and made my dreams very vivid. I would wake up feeling very well rested and rejuvenated from the full night's sleep.
Be well Mr. Pac Man.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 22:32:21
In reply to Re: Ron Hill, Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on August 18, 2003, at 21:19:55
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2003, at 13:48:18
In reply to Re: Katia (not Johnny) Dep » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 1:29:27
Benzos are cheap since most of them are generic. Clonazepam (Klonopin) is a good one because it doesn't dope you out. They've gotten me through some very bad spots. There was a time when I took a small dose of clonazepam 3x a day and it was what got me through and able to get on top of terrible anxiety, both through life situations and med changes. I now only take a benzo (currently valium) just when I really need it and it will nip a bad spell in the bud. Just having a bottle in my cupboard is many times enough to offset a panic attack, much like a security blanket. I do not suscribe to the theory that benzos worsen depression. Anxiety and stress worsen depression. Please mention this to your pdoc. It could take alot of heat off what you're going through, and if you decide to dump Depakote and whatever else you're on, it will smooth out the transition.
Posted by katia on August 19, 2003, at 14:43:48
In reply to Thanks Ron! Hope you are well bro! (NM) (nm), posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 22:32:21
Hi McPac,
Forgive me if you've already told about your history with meds, but i'm curious why are you asking about Depakote?
I just recently started it and have had an atypical reaction to it. I've gotten racy and speeded up, trouble sleeping (I now need sleep meds). I alternate b/t this state and depressed. I just talked to my pdoc and he said, that actually he has seen this in a few other BP people, which is even more confirming for my dx of BP. He said there are one of two things going on: one, the dose is too low and once we get it high enough it'll even out things or two: I'm having a bad reaction to Depakote and up the dose to see if I get speedier or better. If I get worse as the dose titrates up, then we ditch Depakote and try another.
What's been your experience with Depakote?
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2003, at 20:15:19
In reply to Depakote » McPac, posted by katia on August 19, 2003, at 14:43:48
Katia,
Paradoxical drug reactions are very common with BP's. Why? No one seems to know. - BC>>I just recently started Depakote and have had an atypical reaction to it. I've gotten racy and speeded up, trouble sleeping (I now need sleep meds).
Posted by McPac on August 19, 2003, at 21:16:45
In reply to Depakote » McPac, posted by katia on August 19, 2003, at 14:43:48
Hi Katia!
I've never taken Depakote; was just wondering what different folks thought of it.
Take it slow, take it easy....best wishes to you!
Posted by katia on August 20, 2003, at 3:21:22
In reply to Paradoxicals » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 19, 2003, at 20:15:19
> Katia,
> Paradoxical drug reactions are very common with BP's. Why? No one seems to know. - BC
>
> >>I just recently started Depakote and have had an atypical reaction to it. I've gotten racy and speeded up, trouble sleeping (I now need sleep meds).I know why.
the universe didn't seem to think we had enough on our plates; so in addition to the trial and error we face with ADs, why the hell not throw some dousies their way and f*** them up with mood stablizers?!!
love,
katia
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