Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 240805

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questions abt. natural supplement interactions

Posted by bookgurl99 on July 11, 2003, at 0:36:54

To combat migraine, I currently take a prescription med, verapamil, 30 mgs x 3.

Due to recommendations from "Health Notes," I'm also looking into taking 5-HTP, 200 mgs daily; 5 mgs of melatonin daily, and 400 mgs B2(Riboflavin) daily -- all in an effort to reduce the frequency and severity of the migraines. (Last one still affecting me over a week later.)This is in addition to supplemental calcium and magnesium, evening primrose oil, and some omega-3's.

Would I need to fear the effects from combining all of these substances?

 

Re: questions abt. natural supplement interactions

Posted by bampf on July 11, 2003, at 12:28:46

In reply to questions abt. natural supplement interactions, posted by bookgurl99 on July 11, 2003, at 0:36:54

sounds like helpful stuff for soothing migraines. I've personally tried taking more than 3mg. melatonin on a nightly basis and it actually made me more tired and irritable the next day, almost as if it made my body want to sleep way too much in order for 8hrs. sleep to be enough. As a short term (few days) treatment for resetting my sleep cycle, it was great though. good luck

 

Re: questions abt. natural supplement interactions bookgurl99

Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:10:45

In reply to questions abt. natural supplement interactions, posted by bookgurl99 on July 11, 2003, at 0:36:54

> To combat migraine, I currently take a prescription med, verapamil, 30 mgs x 3.
>
> Due to recommendations from "Health Notes," I'm also looking into taking 5-HTP, 200 mgs daily; 5 mgs of melatonin daily, and 400 mgs B2(Riboflavin) daily -- all in an effort to reduce the frequency and severity of the migraines. (Last one still affecting me over a week later.)This is in addition to supplemental calcium and magnesium, evening primrose oil, and some omega-3's.
>
> Would I need to fear the effects from combining all of these substances?

In a word, no.

However.....

5-HTP is an upstream raw material for serotonin. Melatonin is a downstream product of the same pathway. You may find that 5-HTP solves the melatonin problem (assuming that is part of the problem). To make sure that the 5-HTP can do its work, you need other B's, and zinc. So, as I've often said, take a B-complex in addition to any particular B recommended for treatment of a particular disorder (e.g. the riboflavin, in this case).

If you decide to use the melatonin, be aware that it has an inverted-U dose/response curve. Think of the classic bell curve. Slope up, level off, fall away again.

What that means is that too much melatonin can have as little effect as too little. And, the peak of the bell curve is at different doses for different people. So, you may find that a quarter of a 5 mg tab is quite effective, whereas a full tab does squat (just an example, not a prediction). It may require a little experimentation.

My melatonin comments are in reference to its sleep inductive effects. If there is another reason to take it, with respect to migraine, forgive the aside.

Lar

 

Re: melatonin dose

Posted by bookgurl99 on July 12, 2003, at 7:44:22

In reply to Re: questions abt. natural supplement interactions bookgurl99, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:10:45

lar,

thx for your note. i specifically chose the amount of melatonin that i did because 5 mgs was the amount in a study using melatonin to combat migraine. however, i could only find 3's. : D

but, last night i just took a 3 mg and _did_ sleep much better. feel much more awake today, too.

: D

books

 

drugs to help reset sleep cycle

Posted by samplemethod on July 12, 2003, at 13:00:09

In reply to Re: questions abt. natural supplement interactions bookgurl99, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 7:10:45

So would you guys say that melatonin is the best thing to try if I just wanna reset my sleep cycle?

is there anything to be wary about such as getting bad nightmares or watever on it?

And are there any of the supps (referring the Larry Hoovers recommended general supp list) apart from B vits i should only take during the day...


maybe i should also move a greater proportion of my Mag to the night.

LAtely I have just been going to bed later and later and it just adds up ya know.

> > To combat migraine, I currently take a prescription med, verapamil, 30 mgs x 3.
> >
> > Due to recommendations from "Health Notes," I'm also looking into taking 5-HTP, 200 mgs daily; 5 mgs of melatonin daily, and 400 mgs B2(Riboflavin) daily -- all in an effort to reduce the frequency and severity of the migraines. (Last one still affecting me over a week later.)This is in addition to supplemental calcium and magnesium, evening primrose oil, and some omega-3's.
> >
> > Would I need to fear the effects from combining all of these substances?
>
> In a word, no.
>
> However.....
>
> 5-HTP is an upstream raw material for serotonin. Melatonin is a downstream product of the same pathway. You may find that 5-HTP solves the melatonin problem (assuming that is part of the problem). To make sure that the 5-HTP can do its work, you need other B's, and zinc. So, as I've often said, take a B-complex in addition to any particular B recommended for treatment of a particular disorder (e.g. the riboflavin, in this case).
>
> If you decide to use the melatonin, be aware that it has an inverted-U dose/response curve. Think of the classic bell curve. Slope up, level off, fall away again.
>
> What that means is that too much melatonin can have as little effect as too little. And, the peak of the bell curve is at different doses for different people. So, you may find that a quarter of a 5 mg tab is quite effective, whereas a full tab does squat (just an example, not a prediction). It may require a little experimentation.
>
> My melatonin comments are in reference to its sleep inductive effects. If there is another reason to take it, with respect to migraine, forgive the aside.
>
> Lar

 

Re: drugs to help reset sleep cycle samplemethod

Posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 17:10:02

In reply to drugs to help reset sleep cycle, posted by samplemethod on July 12, 2003, at 13:00:09

> So would you guys say that melatonin is the best thing to try if I just wanna reset my sleep cycle?

Literally, that's what it does. It's part of the "timing of sleep" mechanism. It's recommended for people who get jet lag, for example. 20 minutes before retiring, is when you take it.

> is there anything to be wary about such as getting bad nightmares or watever on it?

Not that I've heard of. However, it leaves me a little dopey the next morning. Still haven't found just the right dose, perhaps.

> And are there any of the supps (referring the Larry Hoovers recommended general supp list) apart from B vits i should only take during the day...

There are many stimulating supps, but that may be individual reactions (mine). B-vitamins keep me awake, if taken late in the day.

> maybe i should also move a greater proportion of my Mag to the night.

Ya, that might help.

> LAtely I have just been going to bed later and later and it just adds up ya know.

Uh-huh. You need to get your routine back on track.

Lar

 

Re: questions abt. natural supplement interactions

Posted by avid abulia on July 13, 2003, at 16:49:35

In reply to questions abt. natural supplement interactions, posted by bookgurl99 on July 11, 2003, at 0:36:54

> To combat migraine, I currently take a prescription med, verapamil, 30 mgs x 3.
>
> Due to recommendations from "Health Notes," I'm also looking into taking 5-HTP, 200 mgs daily; 5 mgs of melatonin daily, and 400 mgs B2(Riboflavin) daily -- all in an effort to reduce the frequency and severity of the migraines. (Last one still affecting me over a week later.)This is in addition to supplemental calcium and magnesium, evening primrose oil, and some omega-3's.
>
> Would I need to fear the effects from combining all of these substances?

Besides just the fact that i don't trust what immediate precursors like 5-HTP do when taken on a long-term basis (so much research has been done on L-dopa long-term use dramatically reducing dopamine synthesis, to the point that L-dopa in any dose no longer works at all, that it has made me quite leery)... taking 5-HTP would be counterproductive to what the verapamil is doing for you, it has been pretty well established (see studies on Medline for references if you want them) that part of how verapamil works against migraine is by inhibiting serotonin release... also, 5-HTP when taken without the prescription drug carbidopa (which is not available in a form that is not compounded with another drug) will form most of its serotonin in the peripheral tissues, which will lead to vasoconstriction and inflammation which will make migraine worse in the long run. It is only supposed to be used as an acute treatment, in lieu of triptan drugs, for that reason.

That much melatonin is just asking for trouble. If you look at what supplementation of other hormones outside of physiological doses does to people, you would see where the concern would lie (examples that come readily to mind are cortisol, hydrocortisone, and prednisone for inflammation, anabolic steroids for body building, and thyroid hormone for anoretics trying to lose weight)... so if you want to try melatonin, i would suggest you stick within the physiological dose range rather than the pharmaceutical, which is 300 micrograms in a sustained-release capsule. 1mg doses in sublingual tablets have been used, but not well studied, for both pain-management and aid to sleep to end an acute attack, but safety and efficacy studies are lacking.

If you decide to use high doses of supplemental magnesium, you may wish to monitor pulse and blood pressure because Mg2+ is also a calcium-channel blocker like verapamil.

Have you tried Depacon for acute treatment (the intravenous form of Depakote)? It is supposedly quite effective (even though oral depakote is not) and safe so long as you are not taking Lamictal. That way, you would be covered in case your migraine also has an epileptic component, as well.

As you have mentioned that your doc thinks your migraines may have an epileptic component, you may wish trying out ommission of evening primrose oil, as it is pro-convulsant.

~AA

 

Re: drugs to help reset sleep cycle

Posted by avid abulia on July 13, 2003, at 17:07:18

In reply to Re: drugs to help reset sleep cycle samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on July 12, 2003, at 17:10:02

> > So would you guys say that melatonin is the best thing to try if I just wanna reset my sleep cycle?
>

Perhaps, perhaps not. It can be done without supplements, many times, and if you can avoid supplementing a hormone that is much better. In conditions of deprivation from external cues (e.g. no sunlight and a building with magnetic neutralization) it was found that the natural human cycle is a day of 25 hrs, not 24, which is why it is easier to stay up later than to fall asleep earlier. But if you have an alarm, and force yourself to rise at the same time every day, it mimicks the sun coming out and awakening you as it would if you still lived outside in a "natural" environment for our species, and the resulting tiredness will eventually make it easier to fall back to sleep early again.


>
> > is there anything to be wary about such as getting bad nightmares or watever on it?
>
>


Vivid dreams are a very common effect, both myself and many of my friends who have tried it find this to be true. However, in some, just the opposite may be the case, it depends on personal biochemistry.


>
>
> Not that I've heard of. However, it leaves me a little dopey the next morning. Still haven't found just the right dose, perhaps.
>
> > And are there any of the supps (referring the Larry Hoovers recommended general supp list) apart from B vits i should only take during the day...
>
> There are many stimulating supps, but that may be individual reactions (mine). B-vitamins keep me awake, if taken late in the day.
>
> > maybe i should also move a greater proportion of my Mag to the night.
>
> Ya, that might help.

Additionally, niacinamide (but not other forms of B3) has a sedative effect, you might try moving any niacin you are taking to the night time and try niacinamide unless there are specific reasons (like cardiovascular disease) where you might want to take the nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate forms instead.

I might add that many (not all, but many) people, especially young people, find that a physiological dose (300mcg in a sustained release capsule) find melatonin to be just as effective at sleep-induction as a pharmaceutical dose (usuall found in 1 and 3mg tabs or caps).

~AA


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