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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by disney4 on October 22, 2002, at 13:59:41
I have exausted all of the newer prescription AD's at this point due to intolerable side effects. I have tried Sam-e, and all it did was make me tired (melatonin effect I guess). I have heard some very promising things about Enada Nadh as a natural AD. It is a B enzyme, and there have been tons of positive reports. Any experiences with it would be very appreciated!!! Thanks!
Posted by oracle on October 23, 2002, at 11:27:09
In reply to Enada Nadh--miracle or snake oil?, posted by disney4 on October 22, 2002, at 13:59:41
Posted by disney4 on October 23, 2002, at 11:50:47
In reply to Enada Nadh is snake oil (nm), posted by oracle on October 23, 2002, at 11:27:09
Did you try it? What made you come to the conclusion that it is of no use?
Posted by disney4 on October 24, 2002, at 15:51:12
In reply to Enada Nadh is snake oil (nm), posted by oracle on October 23, 2002, at 11:27:09
Hi,
Thanks for responding. You are the only one who did. I am pretty desperate to find something to help my depression, and not give me intolerable side effects. I have tried almost everything, with the exception of tianeptine, which looks pretty good, at least in theory, but not US approved, which scares me. I have a small sample of Enada NADh coming by mail order. Is it safe to try, or do you think I would be well advised to toss it?
Thanks again
Elsie
Posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 0:21:16
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh is snake oil » oracle, posted by disney4 on October 24, 2002, at 15:51:12
I've tried a few Enada NADH pills from GNC, but just for the cognition and energy claims. I didn't notice anything bad. It may have given me a bit of a lift, but probably no more than good-quality Panax ginseng extract. But again, it wasn't much of a trial. I may try it again, until I can go back to Provigil. NADH is probably safe, but that hasn't been clinically established. I do know it's expensive.
If any of the AD's you've tried were intolerable primarily due to fatigue or somnolence, have you tried augmenting them with 100 mg Provigil? For me, Provigil works wonderfuly in combo with Serzone (and Klonopin). Lots of energy, wakefulness, enthusiasm...and no sexual dysfunction or reversal of the anxiolytic benefits. Provigil also added some mood-elevating properties, especially early on, although I wasn't depressed to begin with. I do know that it's sometimes (but not usually) used as monotherapy in in nonanxious, melanchoy depression.
Getting back to NADH, I believe it's been beneficial to fibromyalgia sufferers. The only thing it's been clinically proven to help with is jet lag, of all things, but that doesn't mean it won't help with depression or other disorders. Although, if you have major depression, I wouldn't think you'd want to hang your hat on NADH alone.
Rick
> Hi,
> Thanks for responding. You are the only one who did. I am pretty desperate to find something to help my depression, and not give me intolerable side effects. I have tried almost everything, with the exception of tianeptine, which looks pretty good, at least in theory, but not US approved, which scares me. I have a small sample of Enada NADh coming by mail order. Is it safe to try, or do you think I would be well advised to toss it?
> Thanks again
> Elsie
Posted by disney4 on October 25, 2002, at 7:38:54
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh » disney4, posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 0:21:16
I tried the provigil once, and I liked it. Unfortunatly it was a sample and my Dr does not think my insurance would cover it. I have taken Serzone in the past, and also liked that, but have been scared off by the liver hoopla lately. I recently have been looking into tianeptine, but think I will pass on that as well as the NADH. The tianeptine seems so promising, yet all I could find on it were small research studies in Europe, and I think it might aggravate my OCD, being it works the oppisite of an SSRI. I am waiting for the miracle med with no side effects, just protective effects, and I think that is a long time coming!!!! For the record I suffer from bipolar disorder and OCD. I do have anxiety, which is why I think the Serzone worked well for me. I think for the time being I am going to stick with my mood stabilizer, Neurontin, and slow release magnesium, which acts as a calcium channel blocker, and helps a lot with anxiety and migraines. If I get desperate, I will try to go back on the Serzone/Provigil combo. What is your opinion on light box therapy? I was also thinking of that, but passed because I heard they can cause headaches, which I already struggle with.
Posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 14:20:44
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh » Rick, posted by disney4 on October 25, 2002, at 7:38:54
> I tried the provigil once, and I liked it. Unfortunatly it was a sample and my Dr does not think my insurance would cover it.
Have you verified your doctor's suspicions on this? Maybe they will cover it, but with a higher co-pay. If you can get by on 100mg (and some people use even less), you can save money by getting the easily-splittable 200 mg pills. In that case, it might not be much (or any) costlier than the NADH you were considering. Also, at one point my doctor was prescribing 200 mg a day (the standard prescription), but since I was usually only taking 100 mg a day it essentially cut my costs in half since the copay was the same for any "usual" prescribed dosage.
>I have taken Serzone in the past, and also liked that, but have been scared off by the liver hoopla lately.
Oops...you've hit on one of my hot buttons here. Unless you've had (or currently have) liver problems, Serzone is extremely unlikely to cause any problems. The "hoopla" you refer to is a BAD reason to stop taking it, if it works for you (and believe me, I'm well aware that severe liver dysfunction is a gravely serious condition). I think some doctors, while they may have true concern for their patients' well-being, are deathly afraid of even the slightest chance of a malpractice suit...and/or they don't take the time to really study the risk warnings and do a risk/benefit analysis. And again, unless you've had/have liver problems, the potential benefits should tremendously outweigh the potential risks.
In fact, driving to work or eating too much bad-for-you food are hugely greater risks than taking Serzone.I just posted on the exaggerated Serzone concerns last night, about the same time I replied to your post. Here's the current direct link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021019/msgs/125147.html
>What is your opinion on light box therapy?Not very familiar with it.
Good Luck,
Rick
Posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 14:25:22
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh » disney4, posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 14:20:44
Oops, I mistakenly linked to an (appreciated) *response* to my post, rather than to my post itself. The correct current link is:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021019/msgs/125120.html
> > I tried the provigil once, and I liked it. Unfortunatly it was a sample and my Dr does not think my insurance would cover it.
>
> Have you verified your doctor's suspicions on this? Maybe they will cover it, but with a higher co-pay. If you can get by on 100mg (and some people use even less), you can save money by getting the easily-splittable 200 mg pills. In that case, it might not be much (or any) costlier than the NADH you were considering. Also, at one point my doctor was prescribing 200 mg a day (the standard prescription), but since I was usually only taking 100 mg a day it essentially cut my costs in half since the copay was the same for any "usual" prescribed dosage.
>
> >I have taken Serzone in the past, and also liked that, but have been scared off by the liver hoopla lately.
>
> Oops...you've hit on one of my hot buttons here. Unless you've had (or currently have) liver problems, Serzone is extremely unlikely to cause any problems. The "hoopla" you refer to is a BAD reason to stop taking it, if it works for you (and believe me, I'm well aware that severe liver dysfunction is a gravely serious condition). I think some doctors, while they may have true concern for their patients' well-being, are deathly afraid of even the slightest chance of a malpractice suit...and/or they don't take the time to really study the risk warnings and do a risk/benefit analysis. And again, unless you've had/have liver problems, the potential benefits should tremendously outweigh the potential risks.
> In fact, driving to work or eating too much bad-for-you food are hugely greater risks than taking Serzone.
>
> I just posted on the exaggerated Serzone concerns last night, about the same time I replied to your post. Here's the current direct link:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021019/msgs/125147.html
>
>
> >What is your opinion on light box therapy?
>
> Not very familiar with it.
>
> Good Luck,
> Rick
>
>
>
Posted by IsoM on October 25, 2002, at 14:57:22
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh -- Disney4 - Correction, posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 14:25:22
I'm not writing this from the perspective of someone who's taken NADH but just wish to give some info that may help understand how it works.
NADH is nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide, a co-enzyme used in basic metabolic reactions in each cell of the body. It's formed from the vitamin niacin, (also called niacinamide or vitamin B3). It's an important part of the Kreb's cycle in converting blood sugar to fuel cellular processes. But it's only ONE part of a complex process. There's numerous enzyme helpers, many of them made from vitamins, mostly the B complex vitamins.
The body is quite capable of converting vitamins into the needed co-enzymes. Perhaps, if one's diet has been poor, or if one is in need of a fast pick-up, taking NADH would help quickly. But over-all, a good diet with supplemental vitamins (especially the B complex ones) will achieve the same end. If one's system is so out of whack that it can't convert niacin to NADH, there would be many other health problems, both physical & mental, obvious.
Remember, a deficiency of niacin discovered back in 1915 was found to be the cause of a mysterious disease called pellagra that's characterized by scaly skin sores, diarrhea, mucosal changes, & mental symptoms very similar to schizophrenia. The main characteristics were a triad of Ds - diarrhea, dermatitis, & dementia.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm15pa.htmlIf anyone is interested in trying NADH, you might wish to read these positive comments:
http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.html
http://smart-drugs.net/ias-NADH.htm
Posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 17:13:44
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh » Rick, posted by disney4 on October 25, 2002, at 7:38:54
Posted by disney4 on October 26, 2002, at 12:21:46
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh -- Disney4 - Correction, posted by Rick on October 25, 2002, at 14:25:22
Hi Rick,
Thanks for all the positive information. My depression has improved, and I'm not really sure what to attribute it to. I haven't taken the NADH, and I stopped the Sam-e trial on Tuesday. Maybe it was stopping the Sam-e, because it made me so tired, I didn't feel like doing anything. I had been on it for a month. I recently started the Slow release magnesium, and it could be that. The brand I use is Mag-Tab Sr, and it is available on the web, and from the Wal Mart pharmacy, classified as an OTC supplement.I am going to hold off on trying anything else for the time being.
Elsie
Posted by Rick on October 26, 2002, at 17:07:28
In reply to Re: Enada Nadh -- Disney4 - Correction » Rick, posted by disney4 on October 26, 2002, at 12:21:46
Posted by Leor on June 8, 2003, at 16:39:14
In reply to Glad to hear you're doing better! (nm) » disney4, posted by Rick on October 26, 2002, at 17:07:28
I have been using NADH to boost my motivation and stamina. My current dosage is 2.5 mg every two days (dose is taken at around 1700). Often, I feel highly irritable in the hours immediately following the dose. This state is characterised by a feeling of exhaustion (though not sleepiness) and difficulty tolerating stress. I would like to find a substance that can offset these effects. Unfortunately, neither TMG nor DMG is an option for me (they are contraindicated for people suffering from overmethlylation disorder). Does anybody know of other substances worth a try? Alternately, can anyone suggest a better timing or dosing for the NADH so that one can avoid encountering this kind of problem.
For those using NADH and/or other natural mood enhancing substances I highly recommend "the natural pharmacist" (probably available at your public library) as a referemce.. Many thanks!
Leor
Posted by Ron Hill on June 8, 2003, at 16:58:53
In reply to Avoiding NADH irritability , posted by Leor on June 8, 2003, at 16:39:14
Leor,
Have you tried adding niacin or niacinamide to control the irritability? I take 125 mg doses of niacin two or three times a day and it is incredible how well it abates my irritability (both my bipolar irritability and the Enada NADH induced irritability). YMMV.
TMG also helps, but you say that it is contraindicated for you.
-- Ron
--------------------------
> I have been using NADH to boost my motivation and stamina. My current dosage is 2.5 mg every two days (dose is taken at around 1700). Often, I feel highly irritable in the hours immediately following the dose. This state is characterised by a feeling of exhaustion (though not sleepiness) and difficulty tolerating stress. I would like to find a substance that can offset these effects. Unfortunately, neither TMG nor DMG is an option for me (they are contraindicated for people suffering from overmethlylation disorder). Does anybody know of other substances worth a try? Alternately, can anyone suggest a better timing or dosing for the NADH so that one can avoid encountering this kind of problem.
>
> For those using NADH and/or other natural mood enhancing substances I highly recommend "the natural pharmacist" (probably available at your public library) as a referemce.. Many thanks!
>
> Leor
Posted by Rick on June 8, 2003, at 18:47:03
In reply to Avoiding NADH irritability , posted by Leor on June 8, 2003, at 16:39:14
> For those using NADH and/or other natural mood enhancing substances I highly recommend "the natural pharmacist" (probably available at your public library) as a referemce.. Many thanks!
>
> LeorJust thought I'd mention that the Natural Pharmacist Encyclopedia is online free as part of the iherb.com site. Here's a direct link to the TNP supplement/herb index page:
Rick
Posted by samplemethod on June 8, 2003, at 22:59:16
In reply to Avoiding NADH irritability , posted by Leor on June 8, 2003, at 16:39:14
Leor,
I believe the NADH is a no no for over methylated people too.
Also I used to think Im an under-mtho, now I think Im an over-metho. What supps have worked as an over metho for you?
> I have been using NADH to boost my motivation and stamina. My current dosage is 2.5 mg every two days (dose is taken at around 1700). Often, I feel highly irritable in the hours immediately following the dose. This state is characterised by a feeling of exhaustion (though not sleepiness) and difficulty tolerating stress. I would like to find a substance that can offset these effects. Unfortunately, neither TMG nor DMG is an option for me (they are contraindicated for people suffering from overmethlylation disorder). Does anybody know of other substances worth a try? Alternately, can anyone suggest a better timing or dosing for the NADH so that one can avoid encountering this kind of problem.
>
> For those using NADH and/or other natural mood enhancing substances I highly recommend "the natural pharmacist" (probably available at your public library) as a referemce.. Many thanks!
>
> Leor
Posted by SLS on June 9, 2003, at 7:58:43
In reply to Avoiding NADH irritability , posted by Leor on June 8, 2003, at 16:39:14
> Unfortunately, neither TMG nor DMG is an option for me (they are contraindicated for people suffering from overmethylation disorder).
Hi Leor.How do you know that you have this disorder?
Can you steer me in the direction of information regarding "overmethylation disorder"? I performed a search on Google and came up empty. The only scientific papers I came up with were those involving the methylation process in DNA.
Thanks.
- Scott
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