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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 13:32:45
In reply to Try Enada (NADH)! Absolutely incredible stuff, posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 1, 2003, at 18:51:41
Michael,
Are you still taking Enada NADH? If not, what prompted you to discontinue? If yes, please give us a status report regarding your experience with the supplement thus far. Thanks.
-- Ron
---------------------------> I read in one study that 204 depressed people treated with NADH *all were 'much' or 'very much' improved. I'm not that depressed, but I do suffer from hypersomnia quite often... and besides, I wanted to see what a gentle dopamine boost would be like for my AvPD. Bottom line, been taking it for just over a week now and absolutely amazed with the results. Complete lack of side effects is a plus too.
>
> --Michael
> Cogito ergo sum pullum.
Posted by catmint on February 18, 2003, at 1:50:40
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 13:22:31
> > Yesterday I bought some Enada NADH, which I heard about on this board. It is supposed to increase dopamine six fold. I did notice a boost in energy and overall good mood, even less anxiety. I'ts quite pricey, but from what I have read about it, I'm going to continue.
> ---------------------------
>
> Amy,
>
> It's been about a week since you posted the above information and I'm wondering if you could give us a progress report regarding the effectivemess/ineffectiveness of your Enada NADH trial? Thanks.
>
> -- RonHello Ron,
I haven't ever taken anything over the counter that has as strong of an effect an NADH. Wow, this stuff feels as powerful as Prozac to me. I only take it every three days because the effects are so strong. What is interesting is how the increased dopamine affects my brain, I feel extremely mellow, not irritable at all, no anxiety, no worries. Amazing stuff really, just one drawback, and I'm not quite sure if this is correct but I think that too much dopamine can cause hallucinations. One night, I noticed some strange hallucinations coming on upon falling asleep.
I guess I should explain, my dx is BP2 and my symptoms when I am in a dysphoric manic state are insomnia, agitation, extreme irritability, and rarely, hallucinations, including auditory and visual. THe visual ones always occur at night and could actually be a night terror, I don't really know, but I have actually "seen" a shadow hovering over me, and sensed a presence in the room. I don't believe in ghosts, I think that the persons who have seen them probably have a psychiatric disorder and are hallucinating, but who knows?!! Really though, I haven't had anything close to that since I have become stabilized on Lamictal, except the other night I almost had an anxiety attack upon falling asleep, due to that same creepy feeling I had experienced a long time ago.
So, I am taking it slow with the NADH, I don't know if there is any connection between increased dopamine and nightterrors, hallucinations or whatever that was.
I am going to continue taking it because it does work wonders for irritability and my constant worries.
Any thoughts?
Amy
Posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 2:32:03
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » Ron Hill, posted by catmint on February 18, 2003, at 1:50:40
Hi Amy,
Interesting. You sound wise to go slow.
I'm curious, prior to taking NADH did you feel that your Lamictal dose was providing enough mood stabilizing power? Aside from the hallucinations, does the NADH dose make you feel slightly hypomanic? What is your Lamictal dosage (if you don't mind my asking)? What other meds (if any) do you take?
-- Ron
------------------------> Hello Ron,
>
> I haven't ever taken anything over the counter that has as strong of an effect an NADH. Wow, this stuff feels as powerful as Prozac to me. I only take it every three days because the effects are so strong. What is interesting is how the increased dopamine affects my brain, I feel extremely mellow, not irritable at all, no anxiety, no worries. Amazing stuff really, just one drawback, and I'm not quite sure if this is correct but I think that too much dopamine can cause hallucinations. One night, I noticed some strange hallucinations coming on upon falling asleep.
>
> I guess I should explain, my dx is BP2 and my symptoms when I am in a dysphoric manic state are insomnia, agitation, extreme irritability, and rarely, hallucinations, including auditory and visual. THe visual ones always occur at night and could actually be a night terror, I don't really know, but I have actually "seen" a shadow hovering over me, and sensed a presence in the room. I don't believe in ghosts, I think that the persons who have seen them probably have a psychiatric disorder and are hallucinating, but who knows?!! Really though, I haven't had anything close to that since I have become stabilized on Lamictal, except the other night I almost had an anxiety attack upon falling asleep, due to that same creepy feeling I had experienced a long time ago.
>
> So, I am taking it slow with the NADH, I don't know if there is any connection between increased dopamine and nightterrors, hallucinations or whatever that was.
>
> I am going to continue taking it because it does work wonders for irritability and my constant worries.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Amy
Posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 4:53:37
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going?, posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 2:32:03
Thanks for the rundown about NADH , Amy. I enjoyed reading your post. SO its really powerful. I just ordered some NAD thru the INternet, Its cheaper because its NOT a patented Product,, Its a Lozenge of NAD (without the hydrogen molecule)
Posted by colin wallace on February 18, 2003, at 5:53:07
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on February 17, 2003, at 12:47:40
Greetings Ronald old chum!
Let's start with the depression;around six months ago, if you recall,I'd relapsed badly and slid into a dangerous mixed-state.This was due to a combination of ugly factors,the ugliest of which was a parent having been diagnosed with brain cancer, unrelenting rain,chronic body-pain(fibromyalgia type-stuff),numerous med. failures,no job and precious little social contact for three years- and an 'unopposed' SSRI to ensure that I finally blew my lid!!!
I had no access to a psych., and looking back, was in pure unadulterated mania-I very nearly did away with myself if I'm honest.After crashing my car at breakneck speed, I found a hospital and begged to be placed on a mood stabilizer... but valproate and lithium made things worse.
Then came my nifty little box of Lamictal in the post, and the rest you know.
Today,I feel better than I have in years;my mind is sharp and clear, I have ABSOLUTELY no depression to speak of,no swings or dysphoria(I no longer fall into my personal mantrap of fixating on a subject and spinning off into anger) clear plans for the future, a semblance of a social life- and I start a new job next week.I'm actually looking forward to it(inasmuch as anyone looks forward to work!)In short, I feel normal.
Lamictal is responsible for my revival, and I thank God I followed my own instincts and placed myself on it.
So, currently I'm taking 200mg Lamictal,2mg diazepam,100mg Neurontin at night(neuropathic pain/stiffness), along with just 10mg Amitryptaline for sleep.
The Prozac 'sprinkle' probably amounts to maybe 2mg/4mg max. , meaning I can get over a weeks mileage from a 20mg capsule.As I mentioned before,it feels entirely different with the Lamictal in place-nice little uplift, but not the silly 'high'or irritability it previously caused.
This may seem like trying to fix something that ain't broken, but there's reason behind my madness?!Although I have no depression symptoms, my problems begin and end with the weather.After around three weeks of continuous rain and gloom, I begin to slide.It's more a slip towards hypomania than pure depression.Feels like cogs in my head loosing their synchronicity and coming unmeshed.My head hurts,I begin to seriously contemplate jumping on a plane(with hardly any money!)and just flying the hell away to anywhere on earth where there's sunshine.I get frustrated and angry, and spit out sentences like "this stinking ****** country is unfit for human habitation!!You get my drift.Not pleasant.
Now I agonized about how to tackle this for some time, and I seem to be defenceless against it.
SSRI's(the dreaded enemy)have proven efficacy against SAD(or a downward bipolar seasonal swing)but we all know the risks.I read an up to the minute article yesterday challenging the hypothesis of the long-term destabalizing effects of using(low dose)AD's with BP(with a mood stabilizer of course)- in this study at least, those on concurrent AD's actually fared slightly better.But I think this debate won't be solved for years.
In my case,I need to 'marshall my troops' to the North rampart and prepare to fend of(next years)bad weather.I believe that, unfortunately, I will need to risk a low dose AD for as long as I'm stuck in the UK.I seem to have little choice.TCA's sem to be the worst culprits for precipitating mania, and(low-dose) Prozac actually compares quite well all in all(Zoloft one of the worst, as we both know!!)
Feeling normal right now is a good starting point to gauge my reactions-any irritability or aberrant thoughts, and Prozac gets the boot.
A retrial of lithium in combo with Lamictal is then an option, and then failing that,I'd have no qualms in trying an MAOI.But I don't think it'll come to that.There's also Topomax, but that doesn't really grab me either.
I like the idea of this ENADA stuff, although I haven't done too much research yet.I may well give it a whirl, and if it feels good, who knows?
By the way, our old friend SAM-E doesn't mix with Lamictal AT ALL- sends me clawing up the wall straightaway!
My med regime is doing it's job perfectly right now, but like you, I'm always looking ahead in case of pitfalls.Fingers crossed.
What are your personal 'med. contingency' plans?
I know you bottomed out with Lamictal once on silly doses, but have you ever thought of a re-trial(like Amy)?At least we both have options still.
Anyway, glad you're feeling well over there, and keep me posted with your progress.Keep bouncing any thoughts, advice and ideas too!!Always welcome.
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 13:31:51
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 18, 2003, at 5:53:07
Colin,
Thanks for your detailed response. Clearly, you are doing very well. I had got the impression from one of your earlier posts (in this thread, I think) that the gray clouds and the reduction in Lamictal dose (due to your pdoc's poor decision) had caused you to fall back into a depression. But, as is evident from your post today, you are doing well. So obviously, if it ain't broke there's no reason to fix it!
I will likely continue to have a bias against the use of SSRI's to treat bipolar II depression (even with a moodstabilizer in place). I can say without hesitation that SSRIs do not work for me. However, I need to allow for the fact that not all BP II's have the same response to SSRIs. Even with a good functioning moodstabilizer, the slightest pinch of an SSRI gives me a couple days of hypomania (euphoric type), followed by a couple days of normal non-depressive state, and then it turns me into what my wife affectionately calls her "do nothing boy". In the latter state, I'm not really depressed and I'm not irritable. But I have no motivation, my energy is low, and I'm completely numb emotionally. When I'm healthy (i.e.; not depressed and not on an SSRI), I am an emotional person.
For me, of all the SSRIs, Prozac is the least offensive and Paxil is the worst. I attribute these adverse SSRI side effects to the fact that; “Chief among the brain’s reactions to artificially elevated serotonin levels is a compensatory drop in dopamine.” I took this quote from page 20 of the introduction in a book entitled "Prozac Backlash" by Joseph Glenmullen, M.D. He is a clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, is on the staff of Harvard University Health Services, and is in private practice in Harvard Square. His credentials look impressive, but he appears to be somewhat extreme in his views regarding the dangers of SSRIs. If you want, you can read the Introduction and Chapter 1 in their entirety for free at the following link:
http://www.glenmullen.com/prozacBacklash.html
I thought it was worth the time I spent scanning the available portions of his book. There have been numerous discussions on this board regarding the issue of SSRIs adversely affecting dopaminergic pathways and, thereby, inducing atypical depressive symptoms. However, this is the first time that I personally have seen a doctor state this in print (I'm sure there are others, however, that I have not come across).
I suspect that the main reason I cannot tolerate even a pinch of an SSRI add-on these days is because I took a ton of the stuff prior to getting the correct dx. In the time period between 1996 and 1998 my initial pdoc had me labeled ADHD and was feeding me a bunch of Ritalin and SSRIs (primarily Paxil). At one point, I was taking 80 mg/day of Paxil! Boy, I wish I knew then what I know now about mental disorders and medications. I don't know a lot about these issues even today, but I knew almost nothing when I went to my initial pdoc appointment. Never again will I subject myself to a doctor’s care without first doing my homework! Enough rant, Ron; move on.
Colin, I'm very happy for you regarding your new job. You're a good man with a lot to offer. The Stanford Research Institute did a study a few years ago showing that a person's chances of success in the workplace depends only 13% on the worker’s specific job skills and an incredible 87% on their people skills. Work hard (as I know you will) and, even more importantly; play nice with your co-workers and your management. If I stay well, which I think I will, I want to get back into the workforce. I want to be a contributing member to our society. If you don't mind my asking, what type of work is your new job?
It's too early in my trial to be recommending Enada NADH, and besides, you sound like you are currently doing well on your current cocktail. Just keep it in the back of your mind in case problems arise for you (God forbid) in the future. Also, keep an eye out for you ole pal Ron "NADH Ginny Pig" Hill's posts to see if it works long-term.
The following is my current list of meds to try if Enada NADH poops out on me. The list is not necessarily in order of preference:
Add-on Another Mood Stabilizer to my current Lithobid:
Tripetal (Dr. Phelps likes this med, however, might cause a rash for me). Neurontin (not a strong moodstabilizer but might help irritability). Lamictal (I really wish I could take this, but my pdoc feels sure it will cause rash even if we go low-and-slow).Add-on Benzo:
Use a long acting benzo like Klonopin on an ongoing basis or use a short acting benzo on an as needed basis. The purpose of the benzo add-on is to keep irritability in check. I would not expect any AD or mood stabilization benefits.Dopaminergic Medications (I use this term loosely):
Provigil. Selegiline (use in low dose range of 5-10 mg/day to retain MAOI-B selectivity). Mirapex. The thinking here is that since I believe the primary benefits of Enada NADH for me is dopaminergic, if it poops out then maybe the benefits could be replicated and sustained with one of these medications.Add-on MAOI antidepressant:
Nardil. Parnate. Selegiline (at higher doses). Dietary restrictions might be a pain. MAOIs can be destabilizing to some bipolar's, although not typically as bad as SSRIs, SNRIs, and TCAs.Low Dose of an atypical anti-psychotic:
Zyprexa. Respreidol (sp?). These might help, but the side effects are problematic and the risk of TD scares the heck outta me.Any comments or input on my list, Colin? Best wishes and be nice to the people you come in contact with on your side of the pond.
-- Ron
-----------------------------------
> Greetings Ronald old chum!
>
> Let's start with the depression;around six months ago, if you recall,I'd relapsed badly and slid into a dangerous mixed-state.This was due to a combination of ugly factors,the ugliest of which was a parent having been diagnosed with brain cancer, unrelenting rain,chronic body-pain(fibromyalgia type-stuff),numerous med. failures,no job and precious little social contact for three years- and an 'unopposed' SSRI to ensure that I finally blew my lid!!!
> I had no access to a psych., and looking back, was in pure unadulterated mania-I very nearly did away with myself if I'm honest.After crashing my car at breakneck speed, I found a hospital and begged to be placed on a mood stabilizer... but valproate and lithium made things worse.
> Then came my nifty little box of Lamictal in the post, and the rest you know.
> Today,I feel better than I have in years;my mind is sharp and clear, I have ABSOLUTELY no depression to speak of,no swings or dysphoria(I no longer fall into my personal mantrap of fixating on a subject and spinning off into anger) clear plans for the future, a semblance of a social life- and I start a new job next week.I'm actually looking forward to it(inasmuch as anyone looks forward to work!)In short, I feel normal.
> Lamictal is responsible for my revival, and I thank God I followed my own instincts and placed myself on it.
> So, currently I'm taking 200mg Lamictal,2mg diazepam,100mg Neurontin at night(neuropathic pain/stiffness), along with just 10mg Amitryptaline for sleep.
> The Prozac 'sprinkle' probably amounts to maybe 2mg/4mg max. , meaning I can get over a weeks mileage from a 20mg capsule.As I mentioned before,it feels entirely different with the Lamictal in place-nice little uplift, but not the silly 'high'or irritability it previously caused.
> This may seem like trying to fix something that ain't broken, but there's reason behind my madness?!Although I have no depression symptoms, my problems begin and end with the weather.After around three weeks of continuous rain and gloom, I begin to slide.It's more a slip towards hypomania than pure depression.Feels like cogs in my head loosing their synchronicity and coming unmeshed.My head hurts,I begin to seriously contemplate jumping on a plane(with hardly any money!)and just flying the hell away to anywhere on earth where there's sunshine.I get frustrated and angry, and spit out sentences like "this stinking ****** country is unfit for human habitation!!You get my drift.Not pleasant.
> Now I agonized about how to tackle this for some time, and I seem to be defenceless against it.
> SSRI's(the dreaded enemy)have proven efficacy against SAD(or a downward bipolar seasonal swing)but we all know the risks.I read an up to the minute article yesterday challenging the hypothesis of the long-term destabalizing effects of using(low dose)AD's with BP(with a mood stabilizer of course)- in this study at least, those on concurrent AD's actually fared slightly better.But I think this debate won't be solved for years.
> In my case,I need to 'marshall my troops' to the North rampart and prepare to fend of(next years)bad weather.I believe that, unfortunately, I will need to risk a low dose AD for as long as I'm stuck in the UK.I seem to have little choice.TCA's sem to be the worst culprits for precipitating mania, and(low-dose) Prozac actually compares quite well all in all(Zoloft one of the worst, as we both know!!)
> Feeling normal right now is a good starting point to gauge my reactions-any irritability or aberrant thoughts, and Prozac gets the boot.
> A retrial of lithium in combo with Lamictal is then an option, and then failing that,I'd have no qualms in trying an MAOI.But I don't think it'll come to that.There's also Topomax, but that doesn't really grab me either.
> I like the idea of this ENADA stuff, although I haven't done too much research yet.I may well give it a whirl, and if it feels good, who knows?
> By the way, our old friend SAM-E doesn't mix with Lamictal AT ALL- sends me clawing up the wall straightaway!
> My med regime is doing it's job perfectly right now, but like you, I'm always looking ahead in case of pitfalls.Fingers crossed.
> What are your personal 'med. contingency' plans?
> I know you bottomed out with Lamictal once on silly doses, but have you ever thought of a re-trial(like Amy)?At least we both have options still.
> Anyway, glad you're feeling well over there, and keep me posted with your progress.Keep bouncing any thoughts, advice and ideas too!!Always welcome.
>
>
> Col.
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 14:58:48
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » Ron Hill, posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 4:53:37
Hi Ms. Sing Lynx,
Just a quick note of friendly caution. NADH (coenzyme 1) is involved directly in the formation of dopamine and other neurotransmitters as well as being involved in a plethora of other essential biochemical reactions within the human body. NAD is what is left over after NADH completes its coenzyme activity.
That's not to minimize the importance of NAD in the human body, but instead, only to clarify that NAD supplementation will not do the same thing as taking NADH. Enada NADH is the only stabilized and absorbable form of NADH currently available. Enada NADH is licensed to many different distributors so several brand names of Enada NADH are on the market.
Its kind of like a lynx and a bobcat; they look similar but they are different criters. :)
-- Ron
---------------------------------> Thanks for the rundown about NADH , Amy. I enjoyed reading your post. SO its really powerful. I just ordered some NAD thru the INternet, Its cheaper because its NOT a patented Product,, Its a Lozenge of NAD (without the hydrogen molecule)
Posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 18:29:15
In reply to Re: NAD is a different animal than Enada NADH » missinglynxx, posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 14:58:48
> Hi Ms. Sing Lynx,
>
> Just a quick note of friendly caution. NADH (coenzyme 1) is involved directly in the formation of dopamine and other neurotransmitters as well as being involved in a plethora of other essential biochemical reactions within the human body. NAD is what is left over after NADH completes its coenzyme activity.
>
> That's not to minimize the importance of NAD in the human body, but instead, only to clarify that NAD supplementation will not do the same thing as taking NADH. Enada NADH is the only stabilized and absorbable form of NADH currently available. Enada NADH is licensed to many different distributors so several brand names of Enada NADH are on the market.
>
> Its kind of like a lynx and a bobcat; they look similar but they are different criters. :)
>
> -- Ron
> ---------------------------------
>
> > Thanks for the rundown about NADH , Amy. I enjoyed reading your post. SO its really powerful. I just ordered some NAD thru the INternet, Its cheaper because its NOT a patented Product,, Its a Lozenge of NAD (without the hydrogen molecule)
>
>OH thanks for the Clarification RON.. You really KNOW your nutrition and Pharmacology.....!
Its always nice to read your posts. actually I already ordered the NAD.. so I can only hope to luck out and find it as effective as Natrols NADH.....Im on about day 10 of NADH (Natrol).
Posted by catmint on February 19, 2003, at 0:01:04
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going?, posted by Ron Hill on February 18, 2003, at 2:32:03
Ron,
I take a mere 35 mg. of Lamictal in the morning and 15mg. in the afternoon. I have had to slowly titrate because the first time I was on it, I got a rash. I do not take any other meds. I do take fish oil, loads of herbs and vitamins, I run and rock climb, do yoga, and meditate, all of which contribute to my current stability. I do get mildly depressed still, and increase the Lamictal accordingly. I do not think I am having any hypomania, I do fell relatively stable, more normal than in a very long time. Enada NADH could possibly send me into a manic state. We'll see.Thanks for asking. By the way, are you bipolar? What meds do you take?
::Amy
Posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 11:54:00
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » Ron Hill, posted by catmint on February 19, 2003, at 0:01:04
>By the way, are you bipolar? What meds do you take?
Amy,
Yes, I'm BP II. I take 600 mg/day of Lithobid which does a good job controlling my hypomania and, as you know, I take 5 mg/day of Enada NADH to treat my depressive phase and irritable mood states. I'm in week four of the NADH trial and, so far, it's working flawlessly. Time will tell if it will last.
Like you, I take various vitamins, minerals, and fish oil. I also take a daily capsule of phosphatidyl serine (PS). It is thought that PS promotes cell membrane placidity (more supple) and, thereby, improves the functioning of the neurotransmitter receptors. PS is kind of spendie at roughly $0.75 per capsule (containing 100 mg of PS). The PS, vitamins, minerals, and fish oil are all beneficial for me, but no where near as profound as the Enada NADH.
I hear ya with regard to exercise. It's essential for my mental health. Also, prayer helps my brain and I wonder what biochemical reaction mechanism is behind this result.
Have you had any more hallucinations that may be attributed to the Enada NADH? Hey, I was thinking that maybe you could benefit by trying the 2.5 mg tablet size of Enada NADH. The smaller dose size tablet is more expensive on a per milligram basis, but if it works better for you, it may be worth it. As I'm sure you know, cutting a 5 mg tablet in two is not effective since this would breach the enteric coat and expose the unprotected NADH to the destructive gastric juices in the stomach.
There are plenty of vendors that sell the 2.5 mg Enada NADH product. Here’s a link to the first one I came across in my bookmarks. You might shop around for the lowest price.
http://www.iherb.com/enada.html
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on February 19, 2003, at 15:43:05
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 11:54:00
WOW Ron ye olde scalliwag!!
Ambling past A HEALth food store today, I just couldn't resist grabbing me a box of them thar
ENADA thingies.....tried 5mg this morning..very Sam-e like-feels like I've taken three Sam-e actually.......7th can of Worthington's best bitter (beer)just to sit still.Burp.Col.
Ps....maybe a 2.5mg??
insane giggle............
Posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 15:47:45
In reply to Re: NAD is a different animal than Enada NADH, posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 18:29:15
> OH thanks for the Clarification RON.. You really KNOW your nutrition and Pharmacology.....!
Ms. Sing Lynx,Thank you for you kind words. Actually, however, I know very little about nutrition and even less about pharmacology. I merely regurgitated from memory what I had previously read. After I sent my post to you yesterday discussing the difference between NADH and NAD, I started to wonder if all of the details in my post were 100% accurate. It might not be exactly correct, but the main message of the post was true.
> actually I already ordered the NAD.. so I can only hope to luck out and find it as effective as Natrols NADH.....Im on about day 10 of NADH (Natrol).
When you say "NADH (Natrol)" you are referring to the Natrol brand of Enada NADH, right? As you know, there is a difference between NADH and Enada NADH. The latter is the only stabilized absorbable formulation currently on the market. In the ten days you've been taking it, have you found it to be effective?
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 16:26:14
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 19, 2003, at 15:43:05
Colin,
You're kidding about the seven cans of beer, right? I hope so.
How does the Enada NADH (without the beer) make you feel? Since you don't currently have your Lamictal fully ramped up, the Enada NADH might induce some hypomania. Is that what is happening? Talk to me and please give me specific detail regarding what this stuff makes you feel like. Let's not run the risk of getting you all screwed up.
When I first took it, I felt like I would have become hypomanic if I had not had an effective moodstabilizer in place. The powerfulness of the supplement tapered from a rather high level initially to a moderate (yet still effective) level after about ten days.
I haven't seen the 2.5 mg tablets at the local nutritional stores, but you can, of course, order them on-line. For example: http://www.iherb.com/enada.html
-- Ron
-----------------------------------
> WOW Ron ye olde scalliwag!!
>
> Ambling past A HEALth food store today, I just couldn't resist grabbing me a box of them thar
> ENADA thingies.....tried 5mg this morning..very Sam-e like-feels like I've taken three Sam-e actually.......7th can of Worthington's best bitter (beer)just to sit still.Burp.
>
> Col.
>
> Ps....maybe a 2.5mg??
>
> insane giggle............
Posted by johnj on February 19, 2003, at 16:33:32
In reply to Re: NAD is a different animal than Enada NADH » missinglynxx, posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 15:47:45
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/
Hey Ron,
Thanks for the info on NADH I found it at Swansons and am thinking of getting some to try. I have used Swansons for quite some time and they are about half for the same brand of multivit that I used to buy at a health food store. I am also thinking of trying some cod liver oil. Maybe it will affect me better than the fish oil. With the oil I can go up very slowly. For 5 bucks a bottle it is worth a try! Hope things are on the mend for you too. I feel better but tired. Just waiting for cymbalta to come out and give it a try. take care
johnj
Posted by johnj on February 19, 2003, at 16:36:10
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 19, 2003, at 15:43:05
Colin,
Put down the brew or just send it over here. Just the word beer gets me salivating. I am thinking of NADH, but will wait just a bit. SAM-e really made me irritable and my wife can't take any more of that!
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on February 20, 2003, at 1:10:24
In reply to NADH link at Swansons » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on February 19, 2003, at 16:33:32
John,
I checked out the Swanson’s site and bookmarked it. Their prices look good. Make sure you buy Enada NADH (not to be confused with plain old non-stabilized NADH).
Having had a little more time to experience this supplement since my last post to you, I would now recommend against the sublingual formulation in favor of the enteric coated "down-the-hatch" tablets. If you buy the 5 mg tablet size, only buy one box because it may turn out that 5 mg/day is too much for you, in which case, you may want to try the 2.5 mg tablet size. On the other hand, you may end up needing 10 mg/day for all I know. By the time you pay shipping, it might be economically advantageous to buy your first box at the local nutritional store until you figure out how much (if any) is right for you.
I take 5 mg/day. If I take more, I get irritable. But at 5 mg/day, Enada NADH provides remarkable relief from my atypical depression (low motivation, low energy, anhedonia (loss of pleasure in life), and hypersomnia) and relief from my irritable mood states. It is too early in my trial to make predictions regarding the long-term effectiveness.
I have a hunch that you will feel your energy lift within a couple of hours after taking your first 5 mg tablet. But, of course, I could be wrong and it might just make you irritable. I think bipolar patient should have a good moodstabilizer on board prior to taking Enada NADH. If it were not for my Lithobid, I think it may have pushed me into hypomania. But you have assured me it the past that bipolar disorder is not part of your dx, right? If you try it, let me know how it affects you.
Congratulations once again on passing your FE. The test is hard enough as it is, but to study for it and take the exam while battling less than optimal brain chemistry says a lot about your character. Nice job, John!
-- Ron
---------------------------> http://www.swansonvitamins.com/
>
> Hey Ron,
> Thanks for the info on NADH I found it at Swansons and am thinking of getting some to try. I have used Swansons for quite some time and they are about half for the same brand of multivit that I used to buy at a health food store. I am also thinking of trying some cod liver oil. Maybe it will affect me better than the fish oil. With the oil I can go up very slowly. For 5 bucks a bottle it is worth a try! Hope things are on the mend for you too. I feel better but tired. Just waiting for cymbalta to come out and give it a try. take care
> johnj
Posted by colin wallace on February 20, 2003, at 6:21:25
In reply to Re:Lamictal + Prozac + Enada NADH + Beer = Giggle? » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on February 19, 2003, at 16:26:14
>Ron,
Nope, I'm not kidding at all.
I actually called in to a health food store with the intention of buying some fish oil(I take a small amount daily)and glucosamine.The cashier was discussing ENADA with a customer, and she mentioned how it had greatly helped a friend with chronic fatigue.
I've done a little homework in the last couple of days, and read that, amongst other things,ENADA is supposed to be able to increase dopamine levels sixfold.One of the main catalysts for my depression has been chronic muscle pain/stiffness, and incoordination(I'd long argued that these were not symptoms of my depression, rather a cause in itself).A very good neurologist I saw last year said that I had clear neurological symptoms(none of the 'biggies' though, thank God)which are 'inextricably linked' to the depression, but which one sparked the other is as yet unclear.Chicken and egg thing.
This is why I'm interested in ENADA;not so much for it's AD properties, more so for it's dopaminergic qualities and the role these play in muscle stiffness etc.
Anyhow, 5mg was too much(don't forget Lamictal is itself ALSO an AD)and it really did feel very much like SAM-E.Less activating, but potent nonetheless.I wasn't at all hypomanic, but very wired all the same.
And yes, a friend called around, and I drank around 9 cans of beer during the course of the evening.Not the wisest move I know(and I drink only rarely), but today I have NO hangover or ill-effects whatsoever!I usually crash badly.Down to ENADA? who knows.
I can still feel the 'buzz' from it today, but it's manageable now.
Verdict:great with beer-seems to prevent hangovers(off label use?!!)
Feels good, but 2.5mg would be quite enough.At some point I'll properly trial it for the myalgia symptoms.Col.
Colin,
>
> You're kidding about the seven cans of beer, right? I hope so.
>
> How does the Enada NADH (without the beer) make you feel? Since you don't currently have your Lamictal fully ramped up, the Enada NADH might induce some hypomania. Is that what is happening? Talk to me and please give me specific detail regarding what this stuff makes you feel like. Let's not run the risk of getting you all screwed up.
>
> When I first took it, I felt like I would have become hypomanic if I had not had an effective moodstabilizer in place. The powerfulness of the supplement tapered from a rather high level initially to a moderate (yet still effective) level after about ten days.
>
> I haven't seen the 2.5 mg tablets at the local nutritional stores, but you can, of course, order them on-line. For example: http://www.iherb.com/enada.html
>
> -- Ron
> -----------------------------------
>
Posted by colin wallace on February 20, 2003, at 6:30:45
In reply to Re: Amy, how's your Enada NADH trial going? » colin wallace, posted by johnj on February 19, 2003, at 16:36:10
> Colin,
>
> Put down the brew or just send it over here. Just the word beer gets me salivating. I am thinking of NADH, but will wait just a bit. SAM-e really made me irritable and my wife can't take any more of that!> johnj
John,
Had a real beer blast yesterday.Just to make you envious!
I think ENADA has great potential, but also the potential for sparking irritability if you get the dose wrong.2'5mg will be quite enough for me.
My energy levels are great with Lamictal as it is.
I did my first(outdoor) mountain bike ride Tues. morning too.Nice hilly 25 miler, no probs.
Seems to activate the Lamictal,as I feel terrific afterwards.Can't complain.Reach for a Guiness!
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on February 20, 2003, at 10:08:24
In reply to Re:Lamictal + Prozac + Enada NADH + Beer = Giggle? » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 20, 2003, at 6:21:25
Colin, it says to wash the tablets down with plenty of WATER, not beer! Good thing you're still young. Stay in touch and be well.
-- Ron
Posted by catmint on February 21, 2003, at 1:08:58
In reply to Re: Read the directions on the box more carefully! » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on February 20, 2003, at 10:08:24
Maybe I'm taking too much, I cut a 10mg. sublingual tab in half yesterday.
I don't know what it is but my brain can't handle that much. Lamictal is activating enough, I sometimes don't sleep all that well on it (really light sleep). With the Enada NADH, I can't get to sleep at all.
It gives me a pretty good headache too, but I also tend to get one on Lamictal too.
Like Colin, I do get plenty of energy from the Lamictal, I don't feel like I need more.
I'ts difficult to describe how it feels exactly, I get kinda wired I guess.
I definately want to avoid becoming hypomanic, so I'm quitting for now.
Ron, I hope it continues to work for you. Keep in touch!
::Amy
Posted by colin wallace on February 21, 2003, at 8:46:57
In reply to Re: Read the directions on the box more carefully! » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on February 20, 2003, at 10:08:24
> Colin, it says to wash the tablets down with plenty of WATER, not beer! Good thing you're still young. Stay in touch and be well.
>
> -- RonRon,
Must have misheard the shop owner when she said
"these are very dear...."
Posted by Ron Hill on February 22, 2003, at 11:44:19
In reply to Re: Enada NADH too activating , posted by catmint on February 21, 2003, at 1:08:58
Amy,
Thanks for posting your update. It sounds to me like you made a good decision by discontinuing the Enada NADH. What prompted you to want to try it? Were you hoping to reduce your irritability with it?
As you know, thus far (four weeks into my trial) 5 mg/day of Enada NADH has relieved my atypical depression and took away my irritability. However, if I did not have a moodstabilizer in place, I think it would have caused me to become hypomanic. Given the fact that you currently do not have your Lamictal fully ramped up (only taking 40 mg/day), perhaps you don't have enough moodstabilization power in place to allow for the use of Enada NADH. Further, it doesn't really sound like you need it since you are not depressed. Perhaps your irritability will subside as you increase your Lamictal dose.
Initially, I was taking 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation but, within the first couple of weeks, this caused my irritability to get even WORSE. So I switched to 5 mg/day of the enteric coated "down-the-hatch" product, which continues to work well. My point is that if you ever feel the urge to try Enada NADH in the future (once your moodstabilizer is fully ramped up), the 2.5 mg enteric coated tablets might work better for you than the sublingual formulation.
Best wishes, Amy.
-- Ron
------------------------------> Maybe I'm taking too much, I cut a 10mg. sublingual tab in half yesterday.
> I don't know what it is but my brain can't handle that much. Lamictal is activating enough, I sometimes don't sleep all that well on it (really light sleep). With the Enada NADH, I can't get to sleep at all.
> It gives me a pretty good headache too, but I also tend to get one on Lamictal too.
> Like Colin, I do get plenty of energy from the Lamictal, I don't feel like I need more.
> I'ts difficult to describe how it feels exactly, I get kinda wired I guess.
> I definately want to avoid becoming hypomanic, so I'm quitting for now.
> Ron, I hope it continues to work for you. Keep in touch!
> ::Amy
>
Posted by colin wallace on February 22, 2003, at 17:24:21
In reply to Re: Enada NADH too activating » catmint, posted by Ron Hill on February 22, 2003, at 11:44:19
Hi guys,
As a quick point of interest, I'd agree with Ron's assesment here, in that Lamictal really needs to be well bolted into place(at least 100mg for a few months- or more for those who aren't med sensitive)to take care of the essential stability, before add-ons are considered.
I have no doubt that NADH would have thrown me into hypomania when I was still adjusting to Lamictal.However, I tried it today for the second time(with water!!)and felt amazingly good.I dropped to 150mg Lam. for a day, and took 5mg NADH.The effect was overpowering(again)for a good few hours, but later in the day I felt so buoyant, level and mentally clear and calm,I had to rub my eyes to believe it.No placebo effect-I can literally feel this stuff coursing through my(dopamine deficient?)head.
As I'm still just getting used to my 2oomg Lamictal dose, I'm going to wait a few months to level off, and then I'm definitely going to introduce(2.5mg)NADH.They seem to complement/activate one another.
My miniscule dose of Prozac(just a few grains)stays aboard too- works well,but NADH has even more potential.More normalizing, less of a high.Glad you're both feeling well,
Keep us posted,
Col.
Posted by Houston on November 7, 2003, at 22:19:05
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac » Ron Hill, posted by colin wallace on February 18, 2003, at 5:53:07
> Hi there.
I have been on lamictal for about seven weeks now. It was great the first four weeks until we upped the dose to 150 which sent me spiraling into deep depression. I could not stop crying and I had fleeting thoughts of suicide which I would have never carried out...but it scared me that I thought of them. So they reduced my dosage to 100 and added 20 of prozac. I haven't been better in at least 10 years and I'm only 31!
>
> Greetings Ronald old chum!
>
> Let's start with the depression;around six months ago, if you recall,I'd relapsed badly and slid into a dangerous mixed-state.This was due to a combination of ugly factors,the ugliest of which was a parent having been diagnosed with brain cancer, unrelenting rain,chronic body-pain(fibromyalgia type-stuff),numerous med. failures,no job and precious little social contact for three years- and an 'unopposed' SSRI to ensure that I finally blew my lid!!!
> I had no access to a psych., and looking back, was in pure unadulterated mania-I very nearly did away with myself if I'm honest.After crashing my car at breakneck speed, I found a hospital and begged to be placed on a mood stabilizer... but valproate and lithium made things worse.
> Then came my nifty little box of Lamictal in the post, and the rest you know.
> Today,I feel better than I have in years;my mind is sharp and clear, I have ABSOLUTELY no depression to speak of,no swings or dysphoria(I no longer fall into my personal mantrap of fixating on a subject and spinning off into anger) clear plans for the future, a semblance of a social life- and I start a new job next week.I'm actually looking forward to it(inasmuch as anyone looks forward to work!)In short, I feel normal.
> Lamictal is responsible for my revival, and I thank God I followed my own instincts and placed myself on it.
> So, currently I'm taking 200mg Lamictal,2mg diazepam,100mg Neurontin at night(neuropathic pain/stiffness), along with just 10mg Amitryptaline for sleep.
> The Prozac 'sprinkle' probably amounts to maybe 2mg/4mg max. , meaning I can get over a weeks mileage from a 20mg capsule.As I mentioned before,it feels entirely different with the Lamictal in place-nice little uplift, but not the silly 'high'or irritability it previously caused.
> This may seem like trying to fix something that ain't broken, but there's reason behind my madness?!Although I have no depression symptoms, my problems begin and end with the weather.After around three weeks of continuous rain and gloom, I begin to slide.It's more a slip towards hypomania than pure depression.Feels like cogs in my head loosing their synchronicity and coming unmeshed.My head hurts,I begin to seriously contemplate jumping on a plane(with hardly any money!)and just flying the hell away to anywhere on earth where there's sunshine.I get frustrated and angry, and spit out sentences like "this stinking ****** country is unfit for human habitation!!You get my drift.Not pleasant.
> Now I agonized about how to tackle this for some time, and I seem to be defenceless against it.
> SSRI's(the dreaded enemy)have proven efficacy against SAD(or a downward bipolar seasonal swing)but we all know the risks.I read an up to the minute article yesterday challenging the hypothesis of the long-term destabalizing effects of using(low dose)AD's with BP(with a mood stabilizer of course)- in this study at least, those on concurrent AD's actually fared slightly better.But I think this debate won't be solved for years.
> In my case,I need to 'marshall my troops' to the North rampart and prepare to fend of(next years)bad weather.I believe that, unfortunately, I will need to risk a low dose AD for as long as I'm stuck in the UK.I seem to have little choice.TCA's sem to be the worst culprits for precipitating mania, and(low-dose) Prozac actually compares quite well all in all(Zoloft one of the worst, as we both know!!)
> Feeling normal right now is a good starting point to gauge my reactions-any irritability or aberrant thoughts, and Prozac gets the boot.
> A retrial of lithium in combo with Lamictal is then an option, and then failing that,I'd have no qualms in trying an MAOI.But I don't think it'll come to that.There's also Topomax, but that doesn't really grab me either.
> I like the idea of this ENADA stuff, although I haven't done too much research yet.I may well give it a whirl, and if it feels good, who knows?
> By the way, our old friend SAM-E doesn't mix with Lamictal AT ALL- sends me clawing up the wall straightaway!
> My med regime is doing it's job perfectly right now, but like you, I'm always looking ahead in case of pitfalls.Fingers crossed.
> What are your personal 'med. contingency' plans?
> I know you bottomed out with Lamictal once on silly doses, but have you ever thought of a re-trial(like Amy)?At least we both have options still.
> Anyway, glad you're feeling well over there, and keep me posted with your progress.Keep bouncing any thoughts, advice and ideas too!!Always welcome.
>
>
> Col.
>
>
Posted by katia on November 9, 2003, at 15:02:14
In reply to Re: Lamictal + Prozac, posted by Houston on November 7, 2003, at 22:19:05
Hi Houston,
Again, your dx is BPII?
katia
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