![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 8:29:54
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine?? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 4, 2002, at 22:36:26
> > Seems to be a rather comprehensive supplement plan. Some comments:
> >
> > 1. DLPA (d-,l-phenylalanine) may be more beneficial than l-tyrosine. A substantial portion of phenylalanine is converted to tyrosine, but some is also available as a precursor to PEA, a feel-good chemical. You could probably go to 2g/day.
> >
>
> Hi Larry
>
> You recommend (d-,l-phenylalanine). I have looked in my supermarket and can find l-phenylalanine tablets.
>
> Could you clarify whether you mean I can take EITHER the d form (does this mean the natural form?) or the l form (does this mean the synthetic form?) OR do you mean a combination d,l form of phenylalanine? Or have I misunderstood your advice? I hope I don't sound ignorant asking this question?
>
> Thanks for your comments
> bluedogI don't expect everyone to have a degree in biochem. No worries.
Natural phenylalanine is all l-. When you come across the d-,l- designation, that means it's man-made. Nature makes her biochemicals with enzymes, where the three-dimensional structure is always pre-determined. We make our chemicals in open vats, where three-dimensional structures are not controllable. Even if we wanted all l-phenylalanine, our product will always be a mixture of d- and l-, termed a racemic mixture. You can separate them out by physical means, if necessary.
For a lot of nutrients, taking a racemate (i.e. d-,l-)provides only about 50% of the desired substance, because half won't be able to fit into our enzymes to be converted to other uses. This is one of the rare cases where that's a good thing, because the unnatural isomer can still be put to good use in the synthesis of PEA.
Posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 9:10:00
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine??, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 8:29:54
>
> Natural phenylalanine is all l-. When you come across the d-,l- designation, that means it's man-made. Nature makes her biochemicals with enzymes, where the three-dimensional structure is always pre-determined. We make our chemicals in open vats, where three-dimensional structures are not controllable. Even if we wanted all l-phenylalanine, our product will always be a mixture of d- and l-, termed a racemic mixture. You can separate them out by physical means, if necessary.
>
> For a lot of nutrients, taking a racemate (i.e. d-,l-)provides only about 50% of the desired substance, because half won't be able to fit into our enzymes to be converted to other uses. This is one of the rare cases where that's a good thing, because the unnatural isomer can still be put to good use in the synthesis of PEA.
So just to be absolutely clear is my following summary of your advice correct?l-phenylalanine is probably going to be more beneficial to my mood than l-tyrosine but d-,l-phenylalanine is the preferable form of phenylalanine to supplement with because the synthetic isomer can be used by the body to synthesise the feel good chemical PEA.
I therefore assume that the natural l-phenylalanine is not able to be utilised by the body to synthesise PEA? Is it healthy to put an unnatural molecule into your body or is a molecule simply a molecule (whether natural or synthetic) and the body is smart enough to be able to deal with it without any adverse side effects? In other words would this create a pharmaceutical drug effect in my body rather than a natural food effect?
I suppose the analogy I would draw would be to Vitamin E supplements. Whereas dl-alpha tocopheral and d-alpha tocopheral are both beneficial to the body, the natural d isomer form is more readily useable by the body and nutritionists recommend that you look for the natural form in your supplements. Are you saying that in the case of phenylalanine that the opposite is the case and the dl form is actually the more beneficial supplement to take?
I hope you can make some sort of sense of my questions.
Thanks Larry
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:44:33
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine?? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 9:10:00
> >
> > Natural phenylalanine is all l-. When you come across the d-,l- designation, that means it's man-made. Nature makes her biochemicals with enzymes, where the three-dimensional structure is always pre-determined. We make our chemicals in open vats, where three-dimensional structures are not controllable. Even if we wanted all l-phenylalanine, our product will always be a mixture of d- and l-, termed a racemic mixture. You can separate them out by physical means, if necessary.
> >
> > For a lot of nutrients, taking a racemate (i.e. d-,l-)provides only about 50% of the desired substance, because half won't be able to fit into our enzymes to be converted to other uses. This is one of the rare cases where that's a good thing, because the unnatural isomer can still be put to good use in the synthesis of PEA.
>
>
> So just to be absolutely clear is my following summary of your advice correct?
>
> l-phenylalanine is probably going to be more beneficial to my mood than l-tyrosineSort of. You'll get more dopamine from a given amount of tyrosine than phenylalanine, because not 100% of Phe is converted to Tyr. However, the Phe can go to PEA, which has an independent mood effect.
>but d-,l-phenylalanine is the preferable form of phenylalanine to supplement with because the synthetic isomer can be used by the body to synthesise the feel good chemical PEA.The d-isomer cannot go to Tyr, so it is wholly available for other uses.
> I therefore assume that the natural l-phenylalanine is not able to be utilised by the body to synthesise PEA?No, it can go to PEA, but the d-isomer will compete for the opportunity, actually enhancing the amount of the l-isomer going to Tyr.
Think of a crowd trying to push through two doors. Let's say women (to represent l-Phe) can go through either door, but men (to represent d-Phe) can only go through one of the doors. A steady stream of women through their special door will reduce the number available to go through the door that both sexes can use. If purely women were in the crowd, then half could go through either door. Add men, and you get more women going through their special door, because of competition with men at the other door.
>Is it healthy to put an unnatural molecule into your body or is a molecule simply a molecule (whether natural or synthetic) and the body is smart enough to be able to deal with it without any adverse side effects?
You get d-aminos all the time. They are produced in relatively high yields by bacteria. 10% or more of the aminos in beer are d-isomers. 30% in some cheeses. It's not so much unnatural, but normal protein sources (meat, soya) are all l-.
>In other words would this create a pharmaceutical drug effect in my body rather than a natural food effect?
You're enhancing one particular outcome, but not as a drug would do. The enzyme that makes PEA is not specific to l-phenylalanine, whereas the one to Tyr is.
> I suppose the analogy I would draw would be to Vitamin E supplements. Whereas dl-alpha tocopheral and d-alpha tocopheral are both beneficial to the body, the natural d isomer form is more readily useable by the body and nutritionists recommend that you look for the natural form in your supplements.You see, that's a falsehood. Natural isn't always better, although some philosophies of health make that assumption. There is no chemical reason to select natural vitamin E over synthetic. It takes no part in any metabolic process of any consequence, but instead, it just floats around. It's kind of like a sacrificial substance. It readily reacts with oxydizing substances, "killing" them before they can do damage to other essential components of our body, like DNA. There are eight isomers of tocopherol. If you're really focussed on this, take all eight, usually labelled as "mixed tocopherols".
>Are you saying that in the case of phenylalanine that the opposite is the case and the dl form is actually the more beneficial supplement to take?
Only because it has a tendency to produce about as much PEA as tyrosine.
> I hope you can make some sort of sense of my questions.
>
> Thanks Larry
> bluedogIf there's more, keep asking.
Lar
Posted by pelorojo on December 5, 2002, at 12:15:54
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine??, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:44:33
I've been wondering about d-phenylalanine alone - any benefit of taking it alone instead of in the d,l form? There's a product called 'endorphenyl" which is d-phenylalanine alone. It allegedly inhibits endorphin/enkephalin breakdown. I believe that's a good thing if you have chronic pain but would it be if you have PTSD (which, at some points in the disorder, you supposedly have too much endorphins)?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 13:41:45
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine?? » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on December 5, 2002, at 12:15:54
> I've been wondering about d-phenylalanine alone - any benefit of taking it alone instead of in the d,l form? There's a product called 'endorphenyl" which is d-phenylalanine alone. It allegedly inhibits endorphin/enkephalin breakdown. I believe that's a good thing if you have chronic pain but would it be if you have PTSD (which, at some points in the disorder, you supposedly have too much endorphins)?
I don't recall anything that suggests that PTSD is linked to too much endorphin. Do you have any idea where you saw that?
I love these questions people throw around. I had not realized that d-phenylalanine inhibited the breakdown of endorphins and enkephalins, but it clearly does.
Unless I find that DLPA (the racemic mix of isomers) is contra-indicated for PTSD, there is no reason to take pure l- or pure d-. DLPA is cheaper, and supplies two different beneficial effects.
Thanks, dude. Time to go check the PTSD thing.
Lar
Posted by pelorojo on December 5, 2002, at 17:30:42
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine??, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 13:41:45
The article below I was reading last night on the endorphin volatility in PTSD. This article is aimed at alcoholism and PTSD, however, it appears that non-alcoholic individuals with PTSD probably undergo the same volatility.
I have chronic, complex PTSD so this issue is particularly salient for me. The article discusses how implicit memories of the traumatic event can be triggered without the individual knowing it (traumatic reminders). Endorphin release follows that is nearly concurrent with the trigger (endorphins numb the pain of the trauma - but importantly they can also fog up one's memory). As the endorphins dissipate, withdrawal is experienced.
Other sources have speculated that this cycle is what underlies the reexperiencing symptom of PTSD. One is drawn to reexperience the trauma because the endorphin release is itself addictive and the withdrawal so uncomfortable. So to get more endorphins, individuals may be drawn to situations (or somehow create similar circumstances) to the 'original' or subsequent past trauma to trigger the release again. Even if you could break the reexperiencing cycle, the process would also be triggered by analogous situations the individual did not create as well (in other words, accidentally, as in hearing a car backfire if you had PTSD from explosions).
This makes intuitive sense to me because it maps well to the abstracted nature of my trauma.
If one aspect of PTSD can be seen as an endorphin rollercoaster then I'm not sure if an endorphin breakdown inhibitor is a good idea. But it might be a great idea. My brain begins to melt when I contemplate the complexity. I haven't read anywhere that it is contraindicated; I'm just wondering as I use DLPA myself and I definitely don't want to make my situation worse by accident. It feels good - but - so do other things that aren't good for me. In fact, the article speculates that an opioid blocker may be a useful treatment for both PTSD and alcoholism. If true, does it follow then that a chemical intervention (d-phenylalanine) that has the effect of raising opioid levels (by slowing their breakdown) is good? I suppose it could be because it could even out the peaks and valleys. But perhaps not because it might change receptor sensitivity? Blah blah blah. Sorry I get carried away.
Here's the link (note it's a PDF file):
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh23-4/256-262.pdf
Posted by pelorojo on December 5, 2002, at 18:30:41
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine??, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 13:41:45
I found this and to be honest, I don't understand it, although my intuition tells me it could be important ?
5: Neuropsychopharmacology 1999 Feb;20(2):188-97
Serotonergic and noradrenergic markers of post-traumatic stress disorder with
and without major depression.Maes M, Lin AH, Verkerk R, Delmeire L, Van Gastel A, Van der Planken M, Scharpe
S.Clinical Research Center for Mental Health, Antwerp, Belgium.
Some studies have suggested that disorders in the peripheral and central
metabolism of serotonin (5-HT) and noradrenaline (NE) may play roles in the
pathophysiology of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). This study examines
(1) the availability of plasma total tryptophan, the precursor of 5-HT, and
tyrosine, the precursor of NE; and (2) the platelet 5-HT transporter and alpha
2-adrenoceptor (alpha 2-AR) binding sites in patients with PTSD and healthy
volunteers. High-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) was employed to
measure plasma tryptophan and tyrosine as well as amino acids known to compete
with the same cerebral transport system; that is, valine, leucine,
phenylalanine, and isoleucine. The maximum number of binding sites (Bmax) and
their affinity (Kd) for binding to [3H]-paroxetine and [3H]-rauwolscine, a
selective alpha 2-AR antagonist, were determined. [3H]-paroxetine and
[3H]-rauwolscine binding Kd values were significantly higher in patients with
PTSD than in healthy volunteers. [3H]-rauwolscine binding Kd values were
significantly higher in patients with PTSD and concurrent major depression (MD)
than in PTSD patients without MD and healthy volunteers. Plasma tyrosine
concentrations and the ratio of tyrosine/valine + leucine + isoleucine +
phenylalanine + tryptophan were significantly higher in PTSD patients with MD
than in those without MD and healthy volunteers. The results show that PTSD is
accompanied by lower affinity of paroxetine binding sites and that PTSD with
concurrent MD is accompanied by lower affinity of alpha 2-ARs and increased
plasma tyrosine availability to the brain. The results suggest that (1)
serotonergic mechanisms, such as defects in the 5-HT transporter system, may
play a role in the pathophysiology of PTSD; and (2) that catecholaminergic
mechanisms, such as increased precursor availability and lowered affinity of
alpha 2-ARs, may play a role in the pathophysiology of PTSD with concurrent MD.Publication Types:
Clinical trialPMID: 9885798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by Jaynee on December 5, 2002, at 19:23:26
In reply to Re: My healthy body=healthy mind supplement regime - » Jaynee, posted by bluedog on December 3, 2002, at 11:18:19
Wilsons Disease, causes you to absorb too much copper. Unless you have Wilsons Disease, the copper shouldn't bother you. No-one should take extra iron unless they have been diagnosed with low iron, and that can only be found by a ferritin or transferrin saturation test, not hemoglobin. Hemochromatosis is the most common hereditary disorder in North America and Northern Europe. 1 in 200 in North America has it and 1 in 8 people carry the gene. Irish people have a very high rate. 1 in 36 have hemochromatosis. It is a sad state of affairs that not many people have even heard of it. Doctors are just starting to pay attention. It is misdiagnosed 90% of the time.
This is from the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society.
What are the symptoms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Symptoms vary, but many Hemochromatotics experience chronic fatigue, joint and abdominal pains, diminished memory and disorientation for many years before diagnosis. In later years there could be some degree of hearing loss. Frequently, HHC is not identified as the underlying cause of disorders such as hepatitis, diabetes, gall bladder, menstrual and thyroid problems, polycythemia and iron deficiency.
As some sufferers exhibit pronounced mood swings and other personality changes such as severe depression or anger, they can be incorrectly treated for mental illness. In some cases Alzheimer's has been suspected. ONLY THE CORRECT TESTS will provide the key!
Frequently one of the earliest symptoms is arthritis of the knuckles of the first and second fingers.
The liver, heart, endocrine glands (glands of internal secretion, such as the pancreas), skin and joints are principally affected, and liver cirrhosis, cardiomyopathy (disease of the heart muscle), diabetes mellitus, hypogonadism (deficient activity of testis or ovary) and arthritis are the usual manifestations.(iii) Common causes of death are cardiac failure, arrhythmia (irregularity in the beating of the heart), hepatic (liver) failure, hepatoma (tumour of the liver) or other malignancy, or the complications of diabetes.(iii) Before the advent of insulin, diabetes topped the list; today victims who are not discovered in the pre-cirrhotic stage, invariably die of hepatoma. Perhaps one of the most tragic affects is that of testicular atrophy in men and premature menopause in woman. Loss of libido may often antedate the other clinical manifestations of the disease.(iv)
Jul-01This is from PUBMED. Although the results say 1% in this study had too much iron, other studies have yeilded higher results.
Iron overload among a psychiatric outpatient population.
Feifel D, Young CW.
Department of Psychiatry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093-8620, USA.
BACKGROUND: Iron overload has been suggested to be an unrecognized cause of psychiatric morbidity. This study sought to estimate the prevalence of iron overload in a large outpatient psychiatric clinic. METHOD: A retrospective review of screening blood chemistries was conducted on 661 active outpatients at a large, university outpatient psychiatric clinic to identify elevated iron status results (plasma iron, percentage of iron saturation) suggestive of iron overload. Patients with positive profiles were asked to undergo a subsequent blood chemistry to confirm positive results (plasma iron, percentage of iron saturation, plus plasma ferritin). Patients with positive repeated iron chemistry results were considered likely candidates for iron overload. RESULTS: Twenty-one patients (3.2%) were identified as meeting one of the criteria suggestive of iron overload on initial screening reports. Thirty-one percent of those who underwent subsequent, confirmatory testing (5/16) continued to meet one of the criteria. On the basis of these results, we estimated a 1% (3.2 x 0.31) prevalence rate of likely candidates for iron overload. A review of these patients' charts indicated that they carried an unexpectedly high rate of bipolar affective disorder (80%) as a diagnosis and were, without exception, atypical in that they were resistant to conventional psychiatric treatment and lacked a family history for this disorder. The prevalence of positive iron overload profiles on a routine blood chemistry was similar to the prevalence of positive thyroid abnormalities based on TSH results in this population. CONCLUSION: Blood chemistry profiles suggestive of iron overload may be associated with a small portion of treatment-resistant psychiatric patients. Routine screening for iron abnormalities, especially in treatment-resistant patients, should be considered. Further studies are required to determine the causal association, if any, between iron excess and primary psychiatric illnesses.
PMID: 9062376 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 1:55:09
In reply to Re: Supplement plan - d-,l-phenylalanine??, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:44:33
> > So just to be absolutely clear is my following summary of your advice correct?
> >
> > l-phenylalanine is probably going to be more beneficial to my mood than l-tyrosine?
>
> Sort of. You'll get more dopamine from a given amount of tyrosine than phenylalanine, because not 100% of Phe is converted to Tyr. However, the Phe can go to PEA, which has an independent mood effect.
>
>
> but d-,l-phenylalanine is the preferable form of phenylalanine to supplement with because the synthetic isomer can be used by the body to synthesise the feel good chemical PEA?
>
> The d-isomer cannot go to Tyr, so it is wholly available for other uses.
>
> > I therefore assume that the natural l-phenylalanine is not able to be utilised by the body to synthesise PEA?
>
> No, it can go to PEA, but the d-isomer will compete for the opportunity, actually enhancing the amount of the l-isomer going to Tyr.
>
>
> >In other words would this create a pharmaceutical drug effect in my body rather than a natural food effect?
>
> You're enhancing one particular outcome, but not as a drug would do. The enzyme that makes PEA is not specific to l-phenylalanine, whereas the one to Tyr is.
>
>
> >Are you saying that in the case of phenylalanine that...the dl form is actually the more beneficial supplement to take?
>
> ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A TENDENCY TO PRODUCE ABOUT AS MUCH PEA AS TYROSINE.
>
LarryWhen I read my above questions and your answers I seem to see some sort of circular reasoning happening.
You say that dl-Phenylalanine is preferable to take to l-tyrosine because the d-isomer is used to produce to PEA. The l-isomer can be used to produce both PEA and l-tyrosine. Then you say in your last statement that dl-phenylalanine has a tendency to produce about as much PEA as l-tyrosine!!!
My interpretation of this is that both dl-phenylalanine and l-tyrosine are used to produce similar amounts of PEA but that with dl-phenylalanine there is an additional step involved in that the l-isomer is converted to l-tyrosine before the body then uses this l-tyrosine to produce PEA.
This brings me back to my original question which is why is it more beneficial to take dl-phenylalanine instead of l-tyrosine? My simplistic understanding of the above process is that l-tyrosine will produce the "similar amount" of PEA you mentioned a lot faster than the dl-phenylalanine because you avoid the additional step of the l-phenylalanine having to be converted to l-tyrosine.
You also say that you'll get more dopamine from l- tyrosine than from phenylalanine. Does the answer to my question lie buried somewhere in this distinction? Is it more beneficial to have a higher ratio of PEA to Dopamine rather than the other way around (ie a higher ratio of Dopamine to PEA? Can you see what I'm getting at?
Here's my New summary and again correct me if I'm wrong!!
1.Both dl-phenylalanine and l-tyrosine will produce a similar amount of PEA.
2.However l-tyrosine will produce a greater amount of dopamine because with the dl-phenylalanine only the l-isomer is available to produce l-tyrosine which will in turn produce dopamine whereas the d-isomer is only able to produce PEA.
3. Therefore l-tyrosine will give you a higher ratio of dopamine to PEA in the brain: and
4. dl-phenylalanine will give you a higher ratio of PEA to dopamine in the brain.OR is this merely a matter of working out comparative dosages?????
Thanks for your patience
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 3:33:56
In reply to Bluedog(Hemochromatosis), posted by Jaynee on December 5, 2002, at 19:23:26
Jaynee
Thankyou for this information. It's scary stuff. Next time I see my doc I will discuss the possibility of getting tested. I'll keep you posted!!!!
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 7:13:36
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 1:55:09
> > ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A TENDENCY TO PRODUCE ABOUT AS MUCH PEA AS TYROSINE.
> >
>
>
> Larry
>
> When I read my above questions and your answers I seem to see some sort of circular reasoning happening.
>
> You say that dl-Phenylalanine is preferable to take to l-tyrosine because the d-isomer is used to produce to PEA. The l-isomer can be used to produce both PEA and l-tyrosine. Then you say in your last statement that dl-phenylalanine has a tendency to produce about as much PEA as l-tyrosine!!!I'm sorry. The answer is semantic, nor chemical. I could have stated it more clearly.
What I meant was DLPA will produce roughly equivalent amounts of PEA and tyrosine. Taking tyrosine will do nothing substantial towards producing PEA.
> My interpretation of this is that both dl-phenylalanine and l-tyrosine are used to produce similar amounts of PEA but that with dl-phenylalanine there is an additional step involved in that the l-isomer is converted to l-tyrosine before the body then uses this l-tyrosine to produce PEA.
My bad. Tyrosine does not go to PEA. It is converted to thyroid hormone or L-DOPA.
> This brings me back to my original question which is why is it more beneficial to take dl-phenylalanine instead of l-tyrosine? My simplistic understanding of the above process is that l-tyrosine will produce the "similar amount" of PEA you mentioned a lot faster than the dl-phenylalanine because you avoid the additional step of the l-phenylalanine having to be converted to l-tyrosine.
No. I confused you.
> You also say that you'll get more dopamine from l- tyrosine than from phenylalanine. Does the answer to my question lie buried somewhere in this distinction? Is it more beneficial to have a higher ratio of PEA to Dopamine rather than the other way around (ie a higher ratio of Dopamine to PEA? Can you see what I'm getting at?
>
> Here's my New summary and again correct me if I'm wrong!!
>
> 1.Both dl-phenylalanine and l-tyrosine will produce a similar amount of PEA.This statement is wrong.
> 2.However l-tyrosine will produce a greater amount of dopamine because with the dl-phenylalanine only the l-isomer is available to produce l-tyrosine which will in turn produce dopamine whereas the d-isomer is only able to produce PEA.
For equal gram weights, yes.
> 3. Therefore l-tyrosine will give you a higher ratio of dopamine to PEA in the brain: and
> 4. dl-phenylalanine will give you a higher ratio of PEA to dopamine in the brain.
Yes. If you consider the weights of each you're taking.
> OR is this merely a matter of working out comparative dosages?????
>
> Thanks for your patience
> bluedog2 grams DLPA will have very nearly the same dopamine precursor effect as 1 gram l-tyrosine. Not quite, but close.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 7:36:51
In reply to More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on December 5, 2002, at 18:30:21
> I found this and to be honest, I don't understand it, although my intuition tells me it could be important ?
>
> 5: Neuropsychopharmacology 1999 Feb;20(2):188-97
>
> Serotonergic and noradrenergic markers of post-traumatic stress disorder with
> and without major depression.Well, it's the kind of report that's intriguing, without really pointing you anywhere. It's like a photograph of a hectic scene, where you can't tell what's really happening because you don't know what's happened before or what will happen next. Clues, but no answers. I'm glad you brought this forward, but I don't know what to do with it (yet).
Lar
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 9:39:23
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 7:13:36
> > > ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A TENDENCY TO PRODUCE ABOUT AS MUCH PEA AS TYROSINE.
> > >
> >
AAhh!!! Yes I see it now. This statement can be interpreted either of two ways and I interpreted it the wrong way!!!. I read this statement as saying that dl-Phenylalanaine and l-tyrosine produce about the same amount of PEA as eachother whereas what you were saying is that dl-phenylalanine can produce PEA and l-tyrosine in roughly equal amounts.How stupid of me not to have seen this...*hits palm against forehead*. Thanks for your clarification. It all makes sense to me now and when my l-tyrosine supply runs out I will be replacing it with a dl-phenylalanine supply.
Should I still be taking this supplement on it's own at least one half hour before I consume any food (especially protein)?
Thanks larry
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 10:14:48
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 9:39:23
> > > > ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A TENDENCY TO PRODUCE ABOUT AS MUCH PEA AS TYROSINE.
> > > >
> > >
>
>
> AAhh!!! Yes I see it now. This statement can be interpreted either of two ways and I interpreted it the wrong way!!!. I read this statement as saying that dl-Phenylalanaine and l-tyrosine produce about the same amount of PEA as eachother whereas what you were saying is that dl-phenylalanine can produce PEA and l-tyrosine in roughly equal amounts.
>
> How stupid of me not to have seen this...*hits palm against forehead*.My semantics promoted misunderstanding. My bad.
> Thanks for your clarification. It all makes sense to me now and when my l-tyrosine supply runs out I will be replacing it with a dl-phenylalanine supply.I think it's the better way to go.
> Should I still be taking this supplement on it's own at least one half hour before I consume any food (especially protein)?
>
> Thanks larry
> bluedogSame deal. You want your amino acid transporters to be free from competing aminos. Fasting at the point of ingesting DLPA means maximum uptake, both from the gut, and subsequently from the blood.
Posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 12:14:43
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 7:36:51
did you see the other article on PTSD & endorphins?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 12:33:28
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD, posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 12:14:43
> did you see the other article on PTSD & endorphins?
Thanks for reminding me. I didn't read it yesterday because I was distracted by other things.
I'm wondering if there is a differential between acute and chronic reactions from PTSD. There seems to be a threshold where an individual can no longer endure the repeated activation, and they develop intractable fatigue. This has been related to acquired adrenal insufficiency, or adrenal fatigue syndrome.
Such individuals respond well to interventions which increase the cortisol feedback signal, as they tend to have chronically elevated ACTH, concimmitant with low cortisone. I'm wondering if there isn't another sort of feedback loop from the endorphin that also suppresses ACTH.
Don't know how to apply this. Drinking is obviously not a good solution, but d-phenylalanine in place of alcohol? Would that be inherently a bad thing?
Posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 13:58:00
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 12:33:28
I wondered the same thing. Any speculation?
When you say 'chronic' - I'm wondering if you have conceptualized it the same way I have. I'm thinking of chronic as near-constant acute reactions. Is that how you see it?
What interventions increase the cortisol feedback signal?
A second concern about tyrosine and phenylalanine is the common advice to avoid them if you have skin cancer or are vulnerable to acquiring it as I believe that tyrosine plays a role in the growth of cancer cells on the skin. I'm Casper-the-friendly-ghost fair-skinned and I live in sunny Texas (plus I was burned repeatedly as a child) so it gives me pause. Others may not have a concern here. Any thoughts or comments on that piece?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 14:35:58
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 13:58:00
> I wondered the same thing. Any speculation?
>
> When you say 'chronic' - I'm wondering if you have conceptualized it the same way I have. I'm thinking of chronic as near-constant acute reactions. Is that how you see it?I'm thinking of the exhaustion phase, one step past what you're describing. Maybe I'm misusing the language, but that's what I think of. You still are hyper-sensitive to stimuli, but the reaction is blunted, and it makes you feel like you're crashing.
> What interventions increase the cortisol feedback signal?
One is licorice root. Now, it's not a long-term treatment, but it may help to clarify just what the problem is. It blocks a liver enzyme which converts cotisol to cortisone (if I recall correctly), the latter being the active form in humans. Anyway, this causes an increase in circulating cortisol, which tricks the hypothalamus into thinking the adrenals are finally doing their job (i.e. no longer exhausted), shutting down pituitary release of ACTH. This actually allows the adrenals to rest, but like I said, it's not a long-term solution. You shouldn't take licorice for more than 3 or 4 weeks. Physiological doses of hydrocortisone are required to properly rest the adrenals, but you need a doctor who will "play along". I ain't so lucky.
> A second concern about tyrosine and phenylalanine is the common advice to avoid them if you have skin cancer or are vulnerable to acquiring it as I believe that tyrosine plays a role in the growth of cancer cells on the skin. I'm Casper-the-friendly-ghost fair-skinned and I live in sunny Texas (plus I was burned repeatedly as a child) so it gives me pause. Others may not have a concern here. Any thoughts or comments on that piece?I'm fair and burn easily myself, but I don't know why you'd be advised to avoid tyrosine or phenylalanine, as they are precursors to melanin, the UV-protective skin pigment. Yes, UV rays will cause a photoreaction in tyrosine or phenylalanine, forming superoxide anion, but the enzyme SOD (superoxide dismutase) should look after that. SOD requires zinc, copper or manganese (there are different forms).
All I know is that since I've been taking lots of B's and minerals, I don't burn so badly as I once did. The enzymes which convert tyrosine to melanin require B-vitamins.
Here's an article that supports tyrosine supplementation for melanin formation:
J Photochem Photobiol B 2001 Oct;63(1-3):148-61
Skin pigmentation enhancers.Brown DA.
AGI Dermatics, 205 Buffalo Avenue, Freeport, NY 11520, USA. dbrown@agiderm.com
The highest incidences of cancer are found in the skin, but endogenous pigmentation is associated with markedly reduced risk. Agents that enhance skin pigmentation have the potential to reduce both photodamage and skin cancer incidence. The purpose of this review is to evaluate agents that have the potential to increase skin pigmentation. These include topically applied substances that simulate natural pigmentation: dihydroxyacetone and melanins; and substances that stimulate the natural pigmentation process: psoralens with UVA (PUVA), dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), L-tyrosine, L-Dopa, lysosomotropic agents, diacylglycerols, thymidine dinucleotides, DNA fragments, melanocyte stimulating hormone (MSH) analogs, 3-isobutyl-1-methylxanthine (IBMX), nitric oxide donors, and bicyclic monoterpene (BMT) diols. These agents are compared with regards to efficacy when administered to melanoma cells, normal human epidermal melanocytes, animal skin, and human skin. In addition, mechanisms of action are reviewed since these may reveal issues related to both efficacy and safety. Both dihydroxyacetone and topically applied melanins are presently available to the consumer, and both of these have been shown to provide some photoprotection. Of the pigmentation stimulators, only PUVA and MSH analogs have been tested extensively on humans, but there are concerns about the safety and side effects of both. At least some of the remaining pigmentation stimulators under development have the potential to safely induce a photoprotective tan.
Posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 17:09:03
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 14:35:58
It's strange ... if I put tyrosine or phenylalanine along with the word 'cancer' in google, it comes up with pages of warnings about how phenylalanine and tyrosine contribute to melanin production and therefore melanoma. A cursory review, however, does not reveal the ultimate source of this warning. *shrug*
Posted by Jaynee on December 6, 2002, at 17:29:59
In reply to Re: Bluedog(Hemochromatosis) » Jaynee, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 3:33:56
I am glad to hear you will ask about Hemochromatosis and get tested. I had to get the genetic test to get a confirmation on the diagnosis. Hemochromatosis is not something to be scarred about, the only scary part is not knowing you have it, or being mis-diagnosed with something else. If you have it, all you have to do is get rid of the iron by phlebotomies, which means every week for about 6 months to a year you have to take out about a bag worth of blood(500ml). Even when I was anemic, I felt way better than when I had too much iron in my body. Anemia was no be deal for me. Hemochromatosis is very treatable and preventable. Since being de-ironed, now all I have to do is donate blood about once or twice a year. So by saving myself, I am saving someone else, pretty cool.
Good Luck and if you have any more questions just ask.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 18:19:55
In reply to Re: More on phenylalanine/tyrosine PTSD » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on December 6, 2002, at 17:09:03
> It's strange ... if I put tyrosine or phenylalanine along with the word 'cancer' in google, it comes up with pages of warnings about how phenylalanine and tyrosine contribute to melanin production and therefore melanoma. A cursory review, however, does not reveal the ultimate source of this warning. *shrug*
If, and *only* if, you already have melanoma, should dietary restriction of tyrosine and phenylalanine be a consideration, as both are raw materials for the cancer cells. They do not cause cancer. In fact, not having enough makes you more vulnerable to melanoma.
Posted by bluedog on December 7, 2002, at 23:08:36
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 10:14:48
> > Thanks for your clarification. It all makes sense to me now and when my l-tyrosine supply runs out I will be replacing it with a dl-phenylalanine supply.
>
> I think it's the better way to go.
>
> > Should I still be taking this supplement on it's own at least one half hour before I consume any food (especially protein)?
> >
> > Thanks larry
> > bluedog
>
> Same deal. You want your amino acid transporters to be free from competing aminos. Fasting at the point of ingesting DLPA means maximum uptake, both from the gut, and subsequently from the blood.Hi Larry
I have a couple more questions.
1) Is it essential that you take DL-Phe or L-Tyr with absolutely no other substances? You see, I also take Diazepam in the morning and I'm wondering if it would be OK to take the DL-Phe or L-Tyr together with the Diazepam. Or will these substances interact with eachother or otherwise compete for similar enzymes and chemical pathways in my system thereby reducing the efficacy of one or the other (or both) of these substances in my body?
2) I know that to get the same dopamine effect that ideally I should approximately double the dose of DL-Phe over the amount of L-Tyr that I currently take each morning. However, I have had a look in my local health food store and a bottle of 500mg DL-Phe tablets is actually more expensive than a bottle of 500mg L-Tyr tablets. Therefore, taking cost considerations into account, my question therefore is would you consider that a 500mg dose of DL-Phe would be more beneficial than a 500mg dose of L-Tyr notwitstanding that less dopamine will be produced in my body, BUT because this lower dopamine production is offset by an approximately equal amount of PEA production in my body from the d-isomer in the DL-Phe? In other words will I get a better result from a higher outright dopamine concentration in my body OR will a better result be achieved with a lower concentration of dopamine acting in concert together with an approximately equal concentration of PEA in my system?
As an analogy (I LOVE my analogies) I generally don't like listening to a either a violin or a cello in isolation (a screeching violin on it's own can be extremely irritating in fact) but the two instruments playing together in concert can produce some rather soothing sounds!!!
Thanks Larry
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 8, 2002, at 8:18:12
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 7, 2002, at 23:08:36
> > Same deal. You want your amino acid transporters to be free from competing aminos. Fasting at the point of ingesting DLPA means maximum uptake, both from the gut, and subsequently from the blood.
>
> Hi Larry
>
> I have a couple more questions.
>
> 1) Is it essential that you take DL-Phe or L-Tyr with absolutely no other substances? You see, I also take Diazepam in the morning and I'm wondering if it would be OK to take the DL-Phe or L-Tyr together with the Diazepam. Or will these substances interact with eachother or otherwise compete for similar enzymes and chemical pathways in my system thereby reducing the efficacy of one or the other (or both) of these substances in my body?I can't conceive of a problem with taking diazepam and amino acids together. The issue is one of not having protein in your gut so that the amino acid transporters which uptake tyrosine or phenylalanine are not busy with other aminos.
> 2) I know that to get the same dopamine effect that ideally I should approximately double the dose of DL-Phe over the amount of L-Tyr that I currently take each morning. However, I have had a look in my local health food store and a bottle of 500mg DL-Phe tablets is actually more expensive than a bottle of 500mg L-Tyr tablets.
I'm surprised to hear that.
>Therefore, taking cost considerations into account, my question therefore is would you consider that a 500mg dose of DL-Phe would be more beneficial than a 500mg dose of L-Tyr notwitstanding that less dopamine will be produced in my body, BUT because this lower dopamine production is offset by an approximately equal amount of PEA production in my body from the d-isomer in the DL-Phe? In other words will I get a better result from a higher outright dopamine concentration in my body OR will a better result be achieved with a lower concentration of dopamine acting in concert together with an approximately equal concentration of PEA in my system?
If I had to choose, I'd go with the DLPA.
> As an analogy (I LOVE my analogies) I generally don't like listening to a either a violin or a cello in isolation (a screeching violin on it's own can be extremely irritating in fact) but the two instruments playing together in concert can produce some rather soothing sounds!!!
>
> Thanks Larry
> bluedogJust a thought, but maybe you might check around on the Internet. You might find prices more to your liking, and you can get your duet for the price of a solo.
Posted by bluedog on December 9, 2002, at 2:19:43
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine, posted by Larry Hoover on December 8, 2002, at 8:18:12
Posted by Leor on January 18, 2003, at 21:31:19
In reply to Re: dl-phenylalanine vs l-tyrosine. Thanks Larry! (nm), posted by bluedog on December 9, 2002, at 2:19:43
If you folks are still out there in cyberspace please consider this question:
( 1 ) how much of Vitamins B6 and C should I ingest with my morning dose of L-Phenylalanine?
( 2 )So far, I have been taking the L-Phenylalanine on an empty stomach along with Dexedrine
and Effexor. Am I right in assuming that taking this amino along with an amphetamine and an SSNRI is a safe plan?( 3 ) I used DLPA for about a month to augment the treatment of my ADHD. At first I found it produced a nice calming affect. Eventually this petered out.
Upon consulting the "all-in-one-guide to natural remedies and supplements (a reference which I recommend) I learnt that this is a predictable effect for DLPA - if one has used it for a period longer than one month. Has anyone else experience this effect? If so, have you found a way to overcome the tolerance issues and resume using it?
( 4 ) I used the L-tyrosine in conjunction with the DLPA for a week. (Again, to augment the treatment of ADHD). During that time I experienced a sharp rise in my anxiety level and a breakthrough of hyperactivity (I say a breakthrough because, owing to my use of Dexedrine it had vanished).
The appearance of anxiety symptoms was not altogether unanticipated because I have a diagnosed case of OCD and a probable case of Generalized Anxiety disorder ( both of which I treat with 37mg of Effexor, taken 4X daily). Still it was disappointing as I had very much wanted to find some (any!) alternative to dexedrine.
Can you folks guesstimate why the L-tyrosine bothered me and how to possibly avoid that effect in the future?
BTW, As far as online suppliers of aminos go I recommended checking out Swanson s (a supplier of natural supplemented based in NJ). They often have excellent discounts on offer.
Those of you who, like me, live in Canada, may be happy to hear that they ship to this country.Many thanks,
Leor
This is the end of the thread.
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