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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 10, 2002, at 19:02:52
Allright so whats the story here? Does anyone have any first hand experience to indicate that a person can suffer for years after coming off the drug (say Valium) as a consequence to taking low doses of benzos for an extended period of time. Or we really talking about a complex interaction of pre-existing condition meets drug withdrawal for a few weeks or months tops.
I'm sure taking mega doses of benzo's for 20 years isn't good for the vast majority of folks, but I'd like to hear a couple real life stories if anyone has any?
That Heather Ashton site has me worried that the 7.5mg of Tranxene I take daily will lead to more problems. Incidentally I used to take 1.5mg of Xanax about 10 years ago for 3 years, then 1mg of klonopin 5 years ago for about 3 years, now I'm taking 7.5mg of Tranxene for about a year.
lend me your thoughts,
Scott
Posted by gheld on August 10, 2002, at 19:16:55
In reply to Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal?, posted by Mr.Scott on August 10, 2002, at 19:02:52
Frem the benzo equivalency chart at the URL below, it appear 7.5 mg tranxene you are taking is roughly equivalent to 1 mg of Xanax. Since you were on 1.5 mg/day before your might have some withdrawl symptoms.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/FAQ1.1.htm#4
Or, your body/mind may not be ready for you to back off the medication yet. Maybe the issues are still there.
Posted by Alan on August 11, 2002, at 11:52:18
In reply to Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal?, posted by Mr.Scott on August 10, 2002, at 19:02:52
> Allright so whats the story here? Does anyone have any first hand experience to indicate that a person can suffer for years after coming off the drug (say Valium) as a consequence to taking low doses of benzos for an extended period of time. Or we really talking about a complex interaction of pre-existing condition meets drug withdrawal for a few weeks or months tops.
>
> I'm sure taking mega doses of benzo's for 20 years isn't good for the vast majority of folks, but I'd like to hear a couple real life stories if anyone has any?
>
> That Heather Ashton site has me worried that the 7.5mg of Tranxene I take daily will lead to more problems. Incidentally I used to take 1.5mg of Xanax about 10 years ago for 3 years, then 1mg of klonopin 5 years ago for about 3 years, now I'm taking 7.5mg of Tranxene for about a year.
>
> lend me your thoughts,
>
> Scott
===============================================
DR Ashton, the darling of the anti-benzo cults DAWN and TURN and other such groups is so often misrepresented that it's laughable.What one has to keep in mind is that she is an "addictionologist" and sees everything through the prism of "addiction"...hardly a skewed view.
Also, her writings are not the results of her own scientific research. They are speculations (from an "addictionologist") about studies that she has *chosen* to speculate on or her own experience as an "addictionologist".
Therefore her written conclusions are filled with all kind of qualifiers in her rhetoric including "perhaps", "tends to", "in some cases", etc, with no footnote or formal peer review.
This leads those that are unfamiliar with the true nature of the medication to place "reasonable doubt" as to whether one is going to actualy be the same as an "addict" or not.
Don't worry, I went through this myself after reading the scare tactics of the several anti-benzo websites - all of whom linked or quoted her - and almost always, out of context.
I've been on and off bzd's of varying sorts for 20 years and have done a lot of research since I knew that this class of meds is what worked for my anxiety disorder. Slow taper is always a way out and the vast majority are able to do this with guidance just as easilly as "withdrawing" from long term ssri therapy. There are always ways to allow one to withdraw without this scare tactic of going to a "detox" center. Thos a re for drug abusers or those with a predisposition to addiction.
Remember, it's not a substance that is addictive, it is one's relationship or even atitude to the drug that makes these drugs POTENTIALLY addictive to the general population.
You are on an exceedingly low dose of bzd's and as long as it is working for you, you are "medically dependent", not addicted.
I'll post a couple links for you in the next message below that are well worth understanding. They certainly were worth the time to read and understand for me.
Best,
Alan.
Posted by Alan on August 11, 2002, at 12:03:16
In reply to Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal?, posted by Mr.Scott on August 10, 2002, at 19:02:52
http://bearpaw8.tripod.com/pd.html
and
http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
There are zero credible studies to indicate this "protracted withdrawl syndrome".
They are usually what your first respondee mentioned...return of symptoms but in modified form due to the natural progression or morphing of the disorder or are something else altogether yet undiagnosed...or even the bzd was misprescribed in the first place causing an escallation in dosage and even an unsupervised withdrawl.
That isn't to discount entirely or minimise the experience of a few that have bad reactions to the drug. This phenomenon is common amongst all drugs, psychotropic or not. Perhaps if the drug co's hadn't covered up research suggesting that withdrawl symptoms DO exist for ssri's (just look at the subject matter on this bboard anytime of the year) there wouldn't be lawsuits against the makers of let's say Paxil for having not disclosed this information to the FDA. These facts were available through internal memos having been made public.
Best,
Alan
Posted by judy1 on August 11, 2002, at 13:30:43
In reply to Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal?, posted by Mr.Scott on August 10, 2002, at 19:02:52
Alan gave you some wonderful sites and a very well written post. My pdoc, who has worked with a panic/anxiety population for 20+ years and treated them with benzos, has never seen the phenomenon you were describing (a protracted withdrawal). Many of his patients want to get off meds eventually (once they learn coping skills) and they taper slowly with no lasting effects. You are on an extremely low dose and honestly I don't think you're going to have problems. For his (my doc's) patients that do have anxiety problems occasionally they take xanax prn with no problems. I have taken 6mg klonopin AND up to 6mg xanax for over 4 years and have been able to get off a couple of times completely with a slow taper. But I have other disorders and land up going back on. Take care, judy
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 11, 2002, at 14:59:34
In reply to Re: Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal? » Mr.Scott, posted by Alan on August 11, 2002, at 12:03:16
Posted by Hiba on August 12, 2002, at 0:35:06
In reply to Re: Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal? » Mr.Scott, posted by Alan on August 11, 2002, at 11:52:18
Dear Alan,
Hats off you. What an outstanding message it was. I know one of my friend who followed Ashton protocol to withdraw from xanax and suffered almost 14 months.Substituing valium for xanax is not working for many people. There are many benzophobics in our society now, simply because of some misinformed patients and physicians. BENZODIAZEPINES ARE SAFER THAN ANTIDEPRESSANTS. I can prove it from my experience. I took klonopin for over a year and withdraw from it without any major complications. Whereas I am still on fluoxetine, because I can't come off it. Whenever I try to come off,severe dysphoria and apathy results. It destroyed and still destroys my sexuality, but I have to take it because I need it. Now will any physicians tell me SSRIs are safer than benzodiazeines? Klonopin didn't affect my sexuality and I was much better on it. A betterment which 40 mg of fluoxetine fails to bring. So far I am afraid the adverse sexual effects of fluoxetine seems to be irreversible because once I came off it for three months and still the lack of desire persisted. Sexually I was very active prior to taking this stuff. But now desire phase is totally destroyed and I don't see any way out of this .I tried Gingko Biloba, periactin, buspirone but nothing helped me to bring back my old sexual self. Feeling better without sexual desire is quite inadequate.
Any comments? I am waiting. hiba_kalam@yahoo.comHIBA
Posted by katekite on August 12, 2002, at 20:22:58
In reply to Re: Protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal?, posted by Hiba on August 12, 2002, at 0:35:06
I think it must just be very individual which is worse. For me both were bad, honestly. I just finished the klonopin withdrawal (yahoo) and had a hard time with it, but the symptoms were very clear: insomnia, shakiness etc. Prozac withdrawal was probably there, but only in retrospect: irritability and just not being myself. It didn't start for a long time, was mild enough and enough like my own personality to just look like I might be depressed. So in a way I disliked it more because it was insidious and hard to know whether it was me or a drug. For me Prozac felt more 'mental' and klonopin more 'physical', if one can make a distinction like that.
Incidentally my libido improved slowly for over year after Prozac. I'm still not normal but that's probably other illness as I was quite normal for a while. After I took Zoloft it also took several months. I had priapism on Celexa and stopped for that reason and it took a long time (a month) after that to feel normal again. It's not reported but I would guess there is some atrophy or blood flow change or something that may take a very long time to go away. Don't despair though, I think it's reversible. I found moclobemide really helped and I feel like the days after I took it I was more normal than before (even though it is a very short acting drug), as if it got old inactive circuits working again or something. I'm sure it's just some kind of memory or placebo thing, but it seemed real to me. Might be worth a try. I know for me I just don't feel like a human (and thus not completely ok) without the ability to have sex.
Kate
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