Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 113537

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 13:12:04

Hi, everyone...

Been a while since I posted. I'm in the process of gradually going off Effexor, thanks much in part to the testimonies of people that I've read on this site. I do not want any drug in my body that has not been tested long enough but that is put out on the market in a (typically American) attempt to sell, sell, sell the drug, never mind what its effects are...

Anyway, that said, I will say that Effexor helped me well enough while i was on it. As per the discussions on withdrawal on this site, the withdrawal symptoms are awful, and for me even when quitting under a physician's care and doing it properly. My physician, as well as many others I've had, does not know a lot about this drug nor its long-term effects. This scares me, but I realize that doctors do not have the time to study every drug carefully, or to know the details of everything they perscribe (should they? That's another debate...)and therefore I'm going to try and talk with a psychiatrist, hopefully with better luck. This site has been enormously informative - thank you all so much - and it should definitely serve as a testimony to the fact that no one knows enough about this drug, not really, not enough for all of us to be as dependent as we are on it (the similarities to heroin withdrawal seem to me to be very accurate, which is very, very scary). Although I wouldn't judge anyone who chose to stay on it - the alternative can be much worse, as we all know.

While withdrawing, as many of you may know, your mind goes through horrible cycles of deep depression, and at these times I said to my husband that I did not doubt that the drug companies put things in these drugs similar to what the tobacco companies put in cigarettes - something to make us all hyper-addicted to the drug - abnormally so! - and make it difficult if not impossible to live without. Ok, that was probably some withdrawal paranoia talking, but...I went off Effexor once before for three months, but to no avail. My symptoms and depression were severe even after the drug had left my system, to a degree that I'd never experienced, even at my lowest points before taking any meds. I had to go back on them to be able to function. Sure, maybe it's just me and my own messed up chemical system, but I am skeptical of something that's on the market before enough tests have been performed - PremPro being a perfect recent example of this market-driven phenomenon! (However I just realized in re-registering on the site that it is a research site - research is a good thing - but wouldn't that make us guinea pigs??)

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. On the more practical side - does anyone have any remedies for the withdrawal symptoms? I have sleepiness/grogginess during the day, restlessnes at night, nausea that comes and goes, paranoia, irritability and anxiety in waves...I've read something about Benadryl on here, I think? Someone suggested I try Vitamin B or Kava kava - anyone know? My doctor just told me to grin and bear it but I'm trying to finish out the last three weeks I have on my job and it's rather tough when you want to bite everyone's head off if they look at you the wrong way! :)

Any help on that end would be greatly appreciated. And thank you all for keeping this site up. It's so nice to know we are not alone!

Mireille __________________________________________________

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by oracle on July 24, 2002, at 16:27:31

In reply to Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 13:12:04

I do not want any drug in my body that has not been tested long enough but that is put out on the market in a (typically American) attempt to sell, sell, sell the drug, never mind what its effects are...

None of this is true. Effexor has been out since 1995 and I have been on in since 1995. So there have been 7 years of people on it PLUS the many years in testing prior to its release.

Junk science is just that....junk

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 19:00:18

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 24, 2002, at 16:27:31

> I do not want any drug in my body that has not been tested long enough but that is put out on the market in a (typically American) attempt to sell, sell, sell the drug, never mind what its effects are...
>
> None of this is true. Effexor has been out since 1995 and I have been on in since 1995. So there have been 7 years of people on it PLUS the many years in testing prior to its release.
>
> Junk science is just that....junk
>
>
Not true? Then why does this site exist? Are we all just badly educated? Tell me why, when I asked three different doctors if I could be on Effexor while pregnant, they each said: "Not enough tests have been performed, so we just don't know." They advise against it because they'd rather be safe than sorry. Shouldn't we know all the side effects before a drug goes on market?

Hello - PremPro? Perfect example of a drug that - whoopsie-daisy!- wasn't tested enough before it hit the market? Fen-Phen also? (Or is it phen-fen?)

I'm a huge fan of science - so let's have more of it before we prescribe people drugs, that's all I'm saying.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Bill L on July 25, 2002, at 9:04:45

In reply to Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 13:12:04

Effexor is a very safe drug. And we have a tremendous amount of experience with it in the US. It's also very effective. It's probably safer than aspirin. Aspirin can cause ulcers in the stomach. Effexor generally does not cause anything as dangerous as ulcers.

Doctors cannot do pregnancy studies on most drugs using humans since it's unethical. But there have no doubt been tons of people on Effexor during pregnancy who did not have problems.

Since you returned to depression last time you went off Effexor, I really hope that you reconsider and stay on it.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by oracle on July 25, 2002, at 12:04:18

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 19:00:18

> Not true? Then why does this site exist?

This site exists for those who do not do well on meds, so it is not a fair sample.

Are we all just badly educated? Tell me why, when I asked three different doctors if I could be on Effexor while pregnant, they each said: "Not enough tests have been performed, so we just don't know."

Because we cannot test AD's on pregnant women or kids.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 12:34:31

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 25, 2002, at 12:04:18

> > Not true? Then why does this site exist?
>
> This site exists for those who do not do well on meds, so it is not a fair sample.

I know, but since I started reading the questions on the site, many of them are the same - what are the normal side effects, should I be feeling this...it doesn't seem like we're getting good enough answers from the medical community - or maybe you're right and this isn't a fair sample - maybe we are not super well informed about what we're talking about? I admit I could be better informed - it's just tough to find the time being in grad school and having a full-time job. I trust my doctors to do the research before they give me something - it's their job!


> Are we all just badly educated? Tell me why, when I asked three different doctors if I could be on Effexor while pregnant, they each said: "Not enough tests have been performed, so we just don't know."
>
> Because we cannot test AD's on pregnant women or kids.

Ok, I knew that...of course it would be unethical...but then, are pregnant women/children just going to forever be this unknown zone? Wow, I guess that's a bigger ethical question...I mean, how did they ever get Ridlin on the market? Or anything they give kids, say, for ADHD?

You are right about them not being able to test pregnant women, or else Thalydamide (sp?) would never have made it onto the market and made all of those babies be born deformed in the late 60s/early 70s. See - what makes me angry in all of this is that we don't know exactly what we are putting into our bodies - instead of trying to actually help a patient, more often than not doctors just give them meds. My friend couldn't sleep well and her doc handed her samples of both Effexor and Ambien. She read the side effects and decided to try herbal teas and other things without effects.
That's what irks me - should I have even taken Effexor to begin with? I had situational depression - but now it seems every time I try and go off I am almost "addicted" to the drug...and have to go back on. I don't know, maybe I am just that depressed in reality, it's just hard to believe it since I never was before I took the drugs. I just think they might alter your brain chemistry in some way. Let's hope not.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by oracle on July 25, 2002, at 14:49:56

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 12:34:31

or maybe you're right and this isn't a fair sample - maybe we are not super well informed about what we're talking about?

We talk about our own experiences. My experience
is I have taken Effexor since 1995, with no problems. It saved my life.

There is no question this site is one sided. But
that does not mean it is wrong or bad.


> You are right about them not being able to test pregnant women, or else Thalydamide (sp?) would never have made it onto the market and made all of those babies be born deformed in the late 60s/early 70s.

Thalydamide (however it is spelled !) was never
marketed in the US as we have higher standards.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 16:34:45

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Bill L on July 25, 2002, at 9:04:45

> Effexor is a very safe drug. And we have a tremendous amount of experience with it in the US. It's also very effective. It's probably safer than aspirin. Aspirin can cause ulcers in the stomach. Effexor generally does not cause anything as dangerous as ulcers.

Can aspirin alter your brain chemistry in subtle but unmistakable ways? And what is "a tremendous amount" of experience - I guess what I mean is, does anyone have any literature to back this up? (I wish Dr. Bob could give us his $0.02...:) What is weird is that none of my doctors, psych or GP, have ever sat down with me and said, "ok, here is what you will probably go through, and there are severe withdrawal symptoms so don't go off cold turkey..." And when I call in to my doctor to ask her if my symptoms are normal, she doesn't seem to know. Everyone is so bent on prescribing the pills but so unclear as to how they will effect you. I know - maybe I just have a bad doctor! Or maybe no one really knows. It's scary. I don't want to be one of those drug victims like the PHen-fen takers, or women on PremPro who now have to worry that - thanks to the drug companies not testing long enough - they may now have increased risks of breast cancer or heart disease.

Maybe we can't know - maybe we are the new guinea pigs, and maybe there's nothing wrong with that. Someone has to do it. We have to help be the pioneers for the next generation, I guess.

> Doctors cannot do pregnancy studies on most drugs using humans since it's unethical. But there have no doubt been tons of people on Effexor during pregnancy who did not have problems.

Well, pregnancy is another issue. They aren't sure if it comes out in breast milk or not. However, as we've seen recently on the news, the effects of pregnancy in some people can be psychotic (Andrea Yates), sometimes the drugs are necessary anyway. And I couldn't judge someone who felt that their baby's life was more endangered by their *not* taking the drugs than by their taking them...

It just seems like so many people are on these, and is it that we are all depressed beyond any help other than drugs, or could we be helped without them? It may be a rhetorical question, or one that we each have to answer for ourselves. I'm not sure.

> Since you returned to depression last time you went off Effexor, I really hope that you reconsider and stay on it.

You're right - I'm really scared - but I have to try and do this. At least all of the doctors I've talked to say "please go off Effexor if you are getting pregnant," even though no one is sure what it would do to the baby - and my husband and I would like to have a baby in the next year. So I have no choice now, unless I become severely depressed. We'll see. Thanks for your thoughtful words, though. I appreciate them.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 17:11:09

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 25, 2002, at 14:49:56

> or maybe you're right and this isn't a fair sample - maybe we are not super well informed about what we're talking about?
>
> We talk about our own experiences. My experience
> is I have taken Effexor since 1995, with no problems. It saved my life.
>
> There is no question this site is one sided. But
> that does not mean it is wrong or bad.
>
>
> > You are right about them not being able to test pregnant women, or else Thalydamide (sp?) would never have made it onto the market and made all of those babies be born deformed in the late 60s/early 70s.
>
> Thalydamide (however it is spelled !) was never
> marketed in the US as we have higher standards.

To oracle: Ok, you taught me something- that's what I get for not doing my research! :)- but we do NOT have higher standards in all things in the U.S. - I lived in Europe for quite a while, and we have VERY LOW STANDARDS for a first-world country! Well, there are exceptions...but we are very market-based - phen-fen was a good example of this, as since the diet market is such a huge money-making machine, and we shot that baby out onto the market...also for food, what is considered "organic" here in the States (and sells for much higher) is considered "normal" there... for the most part...I'm talking fruits and veggies, and cattle without tons of hormones shot into them, etc., etc.

Back on the subject of drugs...I think what it boils down to is that no one has any way to test these over the long term until *we* test them over the long term...I hate to think of myself as a lab rat but someone has got to do it! Maybe my children will have better and better medication, should they need it, if all of us test these drugs...I think I'm just angry because this withdrawal thing is so confusing and no one really has any good answers for me, that's all!

Thanks...
Mireille

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:50:32

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 17:11:09

> To oracle: Ok, you taught me something- that's what I get for not doing my research! :)- but we do NOT have higher standards in all things in the U.S. - I lived in Europe for quite a while, and we have VERY LOW STANDARDS for a first-world country! Well, there are exceptions...but we are very market-based - phen-fen was a good example of this, as since the diet market is such a huge money-making machine, and we shot that baby out onto the market...

Sigh,

Phen-fen came out in Europe prior to the US.

maybe it would be easier to just throw you a bone
instead of correcting each post ? Look into DES.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:57:17

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:50:32

As to long term testing:

Well, this is a hot issue with AIDS. Do we wait
and study long term or treat people who are sick now ? Do we tell patients that we have meds in the pipeline but we have to wait 10 years to use them, despite the fact they are excellent treatments.

In the AIDS meds we fast tracked them, but because
we fast tracked them we waited till people were really sick. We now know this policy killed many
people. We now know many AIDS meds need to be given as soon as you are HIV+.

People seem to demand meds with no side effects
without realizing that it is impossible to do this. Even water kills.

 

Re: Going off Effexor, Oracle and Mirielle

Posted by Fuscia on July 26, 2002, at 21:26:23

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 25, 2002, at 14:49:56

Hi Oracle,

I believe that the biggest problem with Effexor is for those that are discontinuing it. Maybe it is one of those drugs that once started should never be stopped. I don't know how many folks do great on Effexor and how many do not, but I've read many complaints when one tapers down or stops taking Effexor after being on it for a long period of time; over six months. On the other hand so many say how great Effexor is when they first start drug treatment - you'll hear plenty of hails for it especially within the first couple of months. It's one of those short half-life drugs that makes it difficult to taper down or discontinue without a lot of withdrawal effects. I've often wondered if some of the amino acids would be of help to those tapering off of Effexor - such as L-glutamine, which increases GABA, which has a calming effect. Another possible help would be a free-form amino acid complex, taken a half hour before or half hour after a meal, as well as calcium citrate taken on an empty stomach, especially good at bedtime. I know most doctors suggest a single dose of fluoxetine to help with discontinuing process of some of the short half-life drugs such as Effexor and Paxil. Other doctors suggest Benadryl antihistamine. The withdrawal symtpoms can be quite a difficult experience to go through - that's one reason I'll never try Effexor. It may just be the miracle drug for my problems, and maybe it would be a breeze for me to discontinue, but after what I've read from so many others - I choose to steer clear of it, just in case I decide to discontinue the drug for some reason.

Regards, Fuscia

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:41:33

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:50:32

> Sigh,
>
> Phen-fen came out in Europe prior to the US.
>
> maybe it would be easier to just throw you a bone
> instead of correcting each post ? Look into DES.

Really?!?!? Wow, my friends over there had never heard of it but here it was all over the place...you got me again! Yes, I don't usually spew about stuff before knowing the facts...can I blame on withdrawal? :) What is DES...PLEASE throw me a bone...I would LOVE to be directed to a great website where I could learn more about all of this, get my facts straight...
But seriously, I think the past few days I have been kind of just ranting and raving about everything...at work it's really hard not to just tell people what I think of them, I mean, *really* hard, so I have to realize that it's somehow related to withdrawal and it will pass...

Ok, now i've a question for you, Oracle, because you seem to be someone who is knowledgeable (hence your netname? Ok, that's a bit far maybe)...what are your thoughts then on socialized medicine - and before you answer - are you American or part of the rest of the world (i.e. most likely, from a country in which socialized medicine is already the system)?

Grazie molto, and I would like to know more, so please throw further bones on DES... (surely not Department of Economic Security? :)

Mireille

 

Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!

Posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:50:54

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by oracle on July 26, 2002, at 16:57:17

> As to long term testing:
>
> Well, this is a hot issue with AIDS. Do we wait
> and study long term or treat people who are sick now ? Do we tell patients that we have meds in the pipeline but we have to wait 10 years to use them, despite the fact they are excellent treatments.
>
> In the AIDS meds we fast tracked them, but because
> we fast tracked them we waited till people were really sick. We now know this policy killed many
> people. We now know many AIDS meds need to be given as soon as you are HIV+.
>
> People seem to demand meds with no side effects
> without realizing that it is impossible to do this. Even water kills.


Yes, but alas, we also know much more about water (depending on which area you live in!) and its effects on the body...no, I don't buy that "everything kills you anyway" idea in this situation...that lets the drug cos. off the hook.

I have a friend who is here in the US studying the AIDS virus, so that would be an interesting question to pose to him...but my thoughts are,...ok, I tried to formulate them a few different times and realized what a huge ethical can of worms we're opening up here. I mean, I think the drugs should be a LAST resort, at least for mentally ill patients. I think first of all that in AMerica, Psychiatrists and psychologists should NOT cost an average of $50 a session (that's from my own experience with three different docs), should be reimbursed by the government, and should be available to everyone. Hopefully, that would help the problem of all of the seriously mentally ill folks who are wandering the streets right now because either there aren't facilities for them, or the facilities are running drug and prostitution rings (that one in upstate NY that was on "60 Minutes" about a month ago), so they may as well be on the streets. I think that we need to clean up our health care/mental health systems and offer other options than drug treatments. I don't know. That doesn't seem right either, because there are still people who need the drugs no matter what.

Maybe if you are definitely ready to die, know you're going to die unless you try something, maybe then you can say, "ok, I'm willing to try this drug even if it has long-term side effects that are detrimental..." BUt then the drug makes you feel better, you love your life, and BOOM! You find out you're really going to die now because of some side effect...I don't know what the right answer is.

Maybe you're just right. Maybe even water kills and we should just be glad to still be alive.

Thanks for making me think it out, oracle. Although I don't know that I've gotten anywhere. I'd like to find some answers in science..I eagerly await your answers re: DES.

Mireille
>
>

 

Re: Going off Effexor, Oracle and Mirielle

Posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:57:08

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, Oracle and Mirielle, posted by Fuscia on July 26, 2002, at 21:26:23

> Hi Oracle,
>
> I believe that the biggest problem with Effexor is for those that are discontinuing it. Maybe it is one of those drugs that once started should never be stopped. I don't know how many folks do great on Effexor and how many do not, but I've read many complaints when one tapers down or stops taking Effexor after being on it for a long period of time; over six months. On the other hand so many say how great Effexor is when they first start drug treatment - you'll hear plenty of hails for it especially within the first couple of months. It's one of those short half-life drugs that makes it difficult to taper down or discontinue without a lot of withdrawal effects. I've often wondered if some of the amino acids would be of help to those tapering off of Effexor - such as L-glutamine, which increases GABA, which has a calming effect. Another possible help would be a free-form amino acid complex, taken a half hour before or half hour after a meal, as well as calcium citrate taken on an empty stomach, especially good at bedtime. I know most doctors suggest a single dose of fluoxetine to help with discontinuing process of some of the short half-life drugs such as Effexor and Paxil. Other doctors suggest Benadryl antihistamine. The withdrawal symtpoms can be quite a difficult experience to go through - that's one reason I'll never try Effexor. It may just be the miracle drug for my problems, and maybe it would be a breeze for me to discontinue, but after what I've read from so many others - I choose to steer clear of it, just in case I decide to discontinue the drug for some reason.
>
> Regards, Fuscia

Thanks for your thoughts, Fuscia. I really think you may be onto something, although I won't know for sure (if at all) until Oracle sends that DES information my way. :)

But seriously ... I was amazed when I last went off Effexor that after three months, I was still having what seemed to be the "withdrawal" effects...even my mother, who hates the fact that I take Effexor, begged me to go back on it...however, I must admit that i had just gotten laid off from a job and it was a tough time, and that seems to really really effect how the drugs work or how going off them works.

I once had a p-doc that said that depression goes in cycles for most of us, that it comes and goes and that you should try going off the drugs when you think you can, especially if you're only on a tiny amount. THere are some new ones out on the market now that are supposed to have less side effects than Effexor, like Celexa...so if I really need meds again I'll consider the newer ones, *maybe*. You are right that Effexor is a very very scary drug and somehow your mind gets addicted to the chemical reactions it causes...although it did work wonders for me the first year or two I was on it (it's only been 2.5 years). Still, since I'm hoping to get pregnant within the next year, I'm going to steer clear so long as I can help it.

Take care,
Mireille

 

Redirect: socialized medicine

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2002, at 2:28:57

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:41:33

> Ok, now i've a question for you, Oracle, because you seem to be someone who is knowledgeable (hence your netname? Ok, that's a bit far maybe)...what are your thoughts then on socialized medicine - and before you answer - are you American or part of the rest of the world (i.e. most likely, from a country in which socialized medicine is already the system)?

If you'd like to discuss this, please do, but could it be at Psycho-Social-Babble? Thanks,

Bob

PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.

 

Prem Pro? » Mireille

Posted by shar on July 30, 2002, at 0:01:56

In reply to Re: Going off Effexor, thanks in part to you all!, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 19:00:18

Geez Louise, have I missed something? I've been taking Prem Pro for about 9 months now, with good results in alleviating hot flashes and such.

What is it I don't know, M?

Shar


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